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16:01:50 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 63342
16:01:50 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start now
16:01:51 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
16:01:51 <trackbot> Date: 02 December 2014
16:01:56 <joesteele> scribe: joesteele
16:02:53 <ddorwin> ddorwin has joined #html-media
16:03:38 <BobLund> BobLund has joined #html-media
16:04:08 <joesteele> agenda: discussion with Sergei re: 27055
16:04:41 <joesteele> chair: joesteele
16:04:54 <joesteele> topic: Bug 27055
16:05:26 <joesteele> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27055
16:05:34 <joesteele> Surfacinb License to the User
16:05:48 <joesteele> s/Surfacinb/Surfacing/
16:06:15 <joesteele> twirl: someone times the license is not exposed to the end user
16:06:21 <joesteele> ... many times this is about caching
16:06:29 <joesteele> ... many possible states of the cache
16:06:39 <joesteele> other topics like that --
16:06:56 <joesteele> ... changing aspect ratio of screen might cause a problem -- CDM might prohibit
16:07:13 <joesteele> ... Beta from Microsoft counts folks in room and could prohibit based on that
16:07:37 <joesteele> ... an ability to read and verify the license would be useful to let the user know what restrictions there are
16:07:46 <joesteele> ... and what they can do with this content
16:07:58 <joesteele> .... e.g. caching is prohibited, can't store encrypted frames
16:08:16 <joesteele> ... can imagine an attack against the user because they can't play this content
16:08:36 <joesteele> ... in our opinion -- profitable for all terms to somehow be standardized and presented to the user and UA
16:08:49 <joesteele> ... we don't want to provide the solution, see our role as asking questions
16:08:51 <joesteele> q?
16:09:02 <markw> Q+
16:09:27 <joesteele> markw:
16:09:45 <joesteele> markw: reiterate the points I made in the thread
16:09:51 <twirl> s/Beta from Microsoft counts folks in room/There is a Kinect patent: count a number of people in a room
16:10:02 <joesteele> ... there are technical restrictions in the license that are not the same as what the user expects
16:10:14 <joesteele> ... may be more restrictive than what the product does overall
16:10:29 <joesteele> ... for example to allow you to have preview licenses
16:10:44 <joesteele> ... example to allow short amounts of content to be viewed before license is acquired
16:10:54 <joesteele> ... not sure how this could be displayed usefully
16:11:08 <joesteele> twirl: yes we discussed that in the bug
16:11:17 <joesteele> ... there are product and technical restrictions
16:11:25 <joesteele> ... they could be different
16:11:47 <joesteele> ... but things that annoy the user the most are things hardware could do but are prohibited from doing so
16:11:56 <joesteele> ... this needs some solution
16:12:06 <joesteele> ... e.g. you have one hour life
16:12:08 <joesteele> q+
16:12:14 <joesteele> ack markw
16:12:29 <joesteele> twirl: for example what the user can do to extend the content
16:12:45 <joesteele> ... as a consumer it is worst thing to be done
16:13:02 <joesteele> ... e.g. when terms changed and leds to misunderstatdning
16:13:12 <pal> q+
16:13:21 <joesteele> ... those restrictions must be presented to user
16:13:48 <joesteele> markw: as an example if the page provided 100 preview license, what would be the behavior?
16:13:59 <joesteele> twirl: we could present that to the user
16:14:08 <joesteele> markw: what about 100?
16:14:25 <joesteele> twirl: that seems like a weird example
16:14:32 <joesteele> ... could be solved by correct UI
16:14:38 <joesteele> markw: that is an actual example
16:15:13 <joesteele> ... I think the problem of the services telling the users what restrictions are applied is a real problem, but not sure how it could be technically enforced
16:15:31 <joesteele> ... don't think that would fly as a technical solution
16:15:46 <joesteele> twirl: I think would be up to the user agent how deal with that
16:16:08 <joesteele> ... the history of DRM is very concrete here here
16:17:55 <joesteele> joesteele: I think one issue being raised is that for this to be enforced it would require the UA to enforce all the same restrictions as the CDM
16:18:02 <joesteele> ... essentially in parallel
16:18:04 <joesteele> ack me
16:18:50 <joesteele> pal: today there is a lot of commercially protected content which vendors provide information about the restrictions on the content
16:19:11 <joesteele> ... no merchant wants the user to be disappointed e.g. by not being able to watch content on a plane
16:19:25 <joesteele> ... merchant is driven commercially to want to display the right information to the user
16:19:40 <joesteele> ... not sure why the standard should include this mechanism
16:20:17 <joesteele> twirl: we are bringing DRM into the web where everyone can use it. we will have many more implementations, many of which will not follow the regular commercial pattern
16:20:39 <joesteele> ... don't think the example of the existing large providers works for this
16:21:02 <joesteele> pal: a system that does display that information to the user would not be succefully so why would they do it
16:21:10 <joesteele> twirl: I don't agree with that
16:21:39 <joesteele> pal: HTML std does not prevent folks from putting all page content in the H1 header, but folks don't do it becuase it is a bad experience
16:21:49 <joesteele> ... strong incentive to commuicate to the user
16:22:03 <joesteele> twirl: fraud is a possible use case and concern
16:22:07 <joesteele> q?
16:22:11 <joesteele> ack pal
16:22:38 <joesteele> pal: I don't see a big change from what is possible today
16:23:00 <joesteele> twirl: that is partly true, there is no means to control content other than plugins
16:23:09 <markw> q+
16:23:09 <joesteele> ... this would be a big change
16:23:32 <joesteele> ... the history of DRM has many examples of where customers are perceived by companies
16:23:40 <joesteele> ... trying to find a way to solve that problem
16:24:07 <joesteele> ... users devices being controlled, users licenses being removed
16:24:14 <markw> s/perceicved/deceived/
16:24:23 <markw> s/perceived/deceived/
16:25:50 <joesteele> joesteele: is your concern mainly about fraud? or the possibility of a company making a choice which is not apparent to the user?
16:26:21 <joesteele> twirl: both actually -- this is being opened dramatically so that everyone can protect content, this will mean this will happen a lot more
16:26:51 <joesteele> ... might just be a misunderstanding, but the result is still that a large number of people being disappointed
16:27:38 <joesteele> ... the problem is generally that the content provider has a very large scope of rights, but people never thought that content providers has these rights -- e.g. purge content from cache
16:27:48 <joesteele> ... if they had realized, this would have caused an issue
16:27:53 <joesteele> q?
16:28:39 <joesteele> markw: I just wanted to refute the idea that this is new functionality, this is just a new way of exposing this functionality just making it more standarized via the video tag
16:28:58 <joesteele> twirl: that is our greatest concern, we don't want another <object> tag
16:29:09 <joesteele> ... we don't like DRM but we want it to be "webby"
16:29:11 <joesteele> ack markw
16:29:44 <joesteele> markw: I think what a number of the browsers are doing makes this more clear and the object tag is less related to this bug
16:30:01 <joesteele> twirl: any step forward is good but could step farther ...
16:30:04 <joesteele> q?
16:32:24 <joesteele> joesteele: I don't think that this will get worse becuase folks will still need to have business relationships with companies providing the DRM engines
16:32:52 <markw> q+
16:33:09 <joesteele> twirl: you said in the bug that anyone could make their own MediaKeys -- so we will have this.
16:33:26 <joesteele> ... that is one of our greatest concerns that their will be a closed market
16:33:39 <joesteele> s/their will/there will/
16:35:43 <joesteele> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27166
16:35:54 <joesteele> joesteele: this is an example of what I am talking about
16:36:06 <joesteele> joesteele: would text like this be useful?
16:36:08 <joesteele> q?
16:36:23 <joesteele> ack markw
16:37:02 <joesteele> markw: wanted to correct the point about anyone creating their own CDM, it is the intention that each browser integrates with its own CDM. None of the browsers are designing a system where the site can provide its own CDM.
16:37:24 <joesteele> ... don't think that a site-downloadable CDM could be in compliance
16:37:42 <joesteele> ... so it is not the case that there will be arbitrary CDMs
16:38:02 <joesteele> twirl: in that bug everyone is saying that nothing in the spec prevents that
16:38:13 <joesteele> ... if nothing prevents I am expecting that their will be
16:38:22 <joesteele> s/their will/there will/
16:38:29 <joesteele> q?
16:38:43 <twirl> s/prevents/prevents creating new MediaKeys systems
16:39:07 <joesteele> joesteele: any opinions on how we should proceed?
16:40:49 <jdsmith> q+
16:40:52 <joesteele> twirl: I can provide a list of use cases that are problematic in the bug -- most have been discussed already
16:40:57 <pal> q+
16:41:01 <joesteele> joesteele: two options for moving forward I see:
16:41:17 <joesteele> ... 1) text restricting how the CDM can behave
16:41:37 <joesteele> ... 2) A standard set of restrictions on the license and a way to provide those to the UA
16:42:01 <joesteele> ... twirl will provide the list of use cases he is concered about to address #2
16:42:15 <joesteele> s/concered/concerned/
16:42:16 <joesteele> q?
16:42:58 <joesteele> jdsmith: if I understandand the concervation correctly this is about the transparency of the transaction
16:43:13 <joesteele> ... the license is opaque and the user does not know what they are getting
16:43:22 <joesteele> ... much like many transactions on the web
16:43:47 <joesteele> ... I am a little concerned that the license would be very complex and difficult
16:44:04 <joesteele> ... example of privacy standards P3P being something not useful in the end
16:44:28 <joesteele> ... there will be a collection of licenses, maybe many, and some browser UI to present them
16:44:42 <joesteele> ... this feels like a very difficult solution to this problem
16:45:15 <joesteele> ... think I understand the transparency concern. think I agree with Mark that this is on the site to provide before the purchase
16:45:27 <ddorwin> q+
16:45:28 <joesteele> ... but where you really want to solve this is on the site itself
16:45:35 <joesteele> ack jdsmith
16:45:47 <joesteele> ... before the purchase, not after
16:46:20 <joesteele> twirl: this is true, but there is a difference between DRM content and others, the blackbox on the users device prevents them from seeing this
16:46:40 <joesteele> ... 1?? don't think this could be fair if you present it that way
16:46:47 <joesteele> ... this is already done by every CDM
16:46:58 <markw> +1 to Jerry's comments
16:47:01 <joesteele> ... task is just to make it open nothing more
16:47:21 <joesteele> pal: just trying to level expectations here, don't think there is a problem to solve here
16:47:38 <joesteele> ... the task of providing the range of possible rights is an enormous problem
16:47:40 <joesteele> ack pal
16:47:55 <joesteele> ... don't think the next step should be just document one or two cases
16:48:14 <joesteele> ... if the next step is to document all the possible rights this is a problem
16:48:28 <joesteele> twirl: this is not all, just the existing CDMs
16:48:39 <joesteele> pal: that can't just be summarized by two parameters
16:48:51 <joesteele> twirl: don't feel that it is infinite
16:49:07 <joesteele> ... expect it is really just a few
16:49:24 <joesteele> pal: there does not seem to be any action this group can take till this is in use
16:49:37 <joesteele> ... don't want to prevetn people from doing business
16:49:44 <joesteele> ack pal
16:49:52 <ddorwin> EME and DRM add another way to restrict access, but websites also have many other ways, including just no longer providing the content. Codifying the policies of the license can’t explain all that the user can do.
16:49:52 <ddorwin> In contrast, DRM may be entirely responsible for enforcing user capabilities when, for example, the user has a physical disc.
16:50:35 <joesteele> ddorwin: wanted to make the point that EME is only part of the restrictions that the website can place, such as restricting the set of titles you can see
16:50:40 <joesteele> ... even without DRM
16:51:14 <joesteele> ... in the past with offline content, the disk was preventing you from doing things, now we are moving to the server model where the server can prevent you from doing things
16:51:25 <joesteele> ack ddorwin
16:51:26 <joesteele> q?
16:52:16 <joesteele> twirl: we have a new model, not entirely clear but the CDM is on the device and needs standardization
16:52:39 <joesteele> ... if we have a clean server, then why have a CDM at all? but it is for something, so lets say for what
16:52:47 <joesteele> q?
16:53:01 <twirl> s/clean server/just client and server
16:53:23 <joesteele> joesteele: any other points to raise? any actions we can take?
16:54:19 <joesteele> twirl: putting text in the spec would be better than nothing
16:55:10 <joesteele> jdsmith: do you think language in the spec that constrained the CDM to practices that are ethical and do not deceive the end user would be a possible resolution?
16:55:40 <joesteele> twirl: would prefer a guarantee, but is up to the HTML WG to decide whether it can be resolved
16:55:50 <joesteele> ... I am not trying to do you job, just raising concerns
16:56:04 <joesteele> s/you job/your job/
16:56:07 <joesteele> q?
16:56:32 <joesteele> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:56:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
16:56:54 <joesteele> joesteele: when is next scheudled meeting?
16:57:11 <joesteele> jdsmith: meetings scheduled for the 9th and 16th, but Paul is out
16:57:34 <joesteele> joesteele: I will be available for the 9th but not after
16:57:53 <joesteele> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:57:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
16:58:05 <davide> davide has left #html-media
16:59:07 <joesteele> Zakim, bye
16:59:07 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-media
16:59:19 <joesteele> Zakim, list participants
16:59:28 <joesteele> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:59:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
17:00:40 <joesteele> Present: BobLund ddorwin jdsmith joesteele markw pal twirl
17:00:45 <joesteele> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:00:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
17:01:04 <joesteele> regrets: paulc
17:01:06 <joesteele> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:01:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
17:01:46 <joesteele> s/other topics like that --/twirl: other topics like that --/
17:01:50 <joesteele> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:01:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
17:02:39 <joesteele> s/here here/here/
17:03:02 <joesteele> s/enforce all/understand all/
17:03:05 <joesteele> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:03:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
17:03:34 <joesteele> s/essentially in parallel/essentially working in parallel/
17:03:35 <joesteele> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:03:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
17:03:53 <joesteele> s/content which/content for which/
17:03:55 <joesteele> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:03:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
17:04:25 <joesteele> s/succefully/successful/
17:04:27 <joesteele> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:04:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
17:05:32 <joesteele> s/becuase/because/
17:05:34 <joesteele> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:05:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
17:06:19 <joesteele> s/concervation/conversation/
17:06:20 <joesteele> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:06:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
17:07:07 <joesteele> s/is in use/is in wide use/
17:07:08 <joesteele> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:07:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
17:08:45 <joesteele> s/Bug 27055/Bug 27055: Surfacing License to the User/
17:08:47 <joesteele> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:08:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/02-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
17:09:29 <joesteele> rrsagent, bye
17:09:29 <RRSAgent> I see no action items