15:57:46 RRSAgent has joined #hcls 15:57:46 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-irc 15:57:49 Zakim has joined #hcls 15:57:56 zakim, this will be hcls 15:57:56 ok, dbooth, I see SW_HCLS()11:00AM already started 15:58:32 +DBooth 15:58:53 + +1.617.500.aabb 15:59:11 JoshM has joined #hcls 15:59:36 +??P11 15:59:48 + +1.801.949.aacc 16:00:22 +??P10 16:00:30 + +1.202.260.aadd 16:00:42 - +1.617.500.aabb 16:00:52 +EricP 16:01:03 zakim, aacc RobHausem 16:01:04 I don't understand 'aacc RobHausem', dbooth 16:01:24 +??P6 16:01:33 So should I be dialing into gotomeeting, or the W3C bridge? 16:01:39 zakim, aabb is CharlieMead 16:01:39 sorry, dbooth, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb' 16:01:44 Joshua_Phillips has joined #HCLS 16:01:44 rhausam has joined #HCLS 16:02:07 Marc_Twagirumukiza has joined #HCLS 16:02:11 dbooth has changed the topic to: Please join https://talky.io/hcls 16:02:15 The channel topic indicates gotomeeting 16:02:15 dbooth has changed the topic to: Please join https://talky.io/hcls 16:02:16 Ah 16:02:31 + +1.410.624.aaee 16:02:51 Zakim, aaee is Joshua_Phillips 16:02:51 +Joshua_Phillips; got it 16:03:53 +[IPcaller] 16:04:13 +??P22 16:04:30 +[IPcaller.a] 16:04:51 rafael has joined #HCLS 16:05:09 I would like to suggest that talky.io may not work for this particular group-chat use case. 16:05:44 zakim aadd is PatriciaGrime 16:05:53 zakim, who is here 16:05:54 dbooth, you need to end that query with '?' 16:06:08 + +1.801.507.aaff 16:06:28 daniel has joined #hcls 16:07:18 -[IPcaller] 16:07:54 charlie has joined #hcls 16:08:54 zakim, who is here? 16:08:54 On the phone I see +1.978.794.aaaa, DBooth, ??P11, +1.801.949.aacc, ??P10, +1.202.260.aadd, EricP, ??P6, Joshua_Phillips, ??P22, [IPcaller.a], +1.801.507.aaff 16:08:57 On IRC I see charlie, daniel, rafael, Marc_Twagirumukiza, rhausam, Joshua_Phillips, JoshM, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot, dbooth, Tony, Cati_Martinez_Costa, TallTed, cloudcell, ericP 16:09:01 Claude_ has joined #hcls 16:09:07 zakim, aaaa is Tony 16:09:07 +Tony; got it 16:09:19 1. Please join my meeting. https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/157514853 2. Use your microphone and speakers (VoIP) - a headset is recommended. Or, call in using your telephone. Dial +1 (213) 289-0016 Access Code: 157-514-853 Audio PIN: Shown after joining the meeting Meeting ID: 157-514-853 GoToMeeting® Online Meetings Made Easy® 16:11:01 Topic: Role call and agenda 16:11:01 -??P10 16:11:06 Zakim, aadd patricia 16:11:06 I don't understand 'aadd patricia', ericP 16:11:10 Zakim, aadd is patricia 16:11:10 +patricia; got it 16:11:38 + +1.415.537.aagg 16:11:47 Zakim, aaff is StanHuff 16:11:47 +StanHuff; got it 16:11:54 zakim, RobHausem is really rhausam 16:11:54 sorry, dbooth, I do not recognize a party named 'RobHausem' 16:12:13 Zakim, aagg is CecilLynch 16:12:13 +CecilLynch; got it 16:12:15 zakim, aacc is really rhausam 16:12:15 +rhausam; got it 16:12:19 Zakim, who is here? 16:12:19 On the phone I see Tony, DBooth, ??P11, rhausam, patricia, EricP, ??P6, Joshua_Phillips, ??P22, [IPcaller.a], StanHuff, CecilLynch 16:12:21 On IRC I see Claude_, charlie, daniel, rafael, Marc_Twagirumukiza, rhausam, Joshua_Phillips, JoshM, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot, dbooth, Tony, Cati_Martinez_Costa, TallTed, 16:12:21 ... cloudcell, ericP 16:13:24 Zakim, ??P11 is mscottm 16:13:24 +mscottm; got it 16:13:46 daniel karlsson here, not identified 16:14:25 will audio be on gotomeeting as well? 16:14:55 +harold 16:15:50 Zakim, harold is really Guoqian 16:15:50 +Guoqian; got it 16:15:54 Topic: Logistics 16:16:03 action: ericP to set up tracker 16:16:03 Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel. 16:16:09 Orphaned action items 16:16:13 Topic: Orphaned action items 16:16:30 Is there a meeting happening somewhere? I tried bridge, talky, and gotomeeting 16:16:41 Topic: Work Projects 16:17:02 ACTION: Tony to find out more details about how iCat handles ICD-11 ont and report back [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action01] -- PENDING 16:17:02 Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel. 16:17:44 mscottm has joined #hcls 16:18:10 -mscottm 16:18:50 Topic: PhUSE-FDA project (formerly CDISC2RDF) 16:19:09 ACTION: Kerstin and Ingeborg to prepare a status and future state ideas for PhUSE-FDA work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action05] -- PENDING 16:19:09 Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel. 16:19:34 Topic: C-CDA RDF representations 16:19:43 ACTION: Eric to establish/make a wiki page for C-CDA RDF representations work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action06] 16:19:43 Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel. 16:19:44 +[IPcaller] 16:19:49 [PENDING] 16:19:49 +??P34 16:20:01 Zakim, who is on the phone? 16:20:01 On the phone I see Tony, DBooth, rhausam, patricia, EricP, ??P6, Joshua_Phillips, ??P22, [IPcaller.a], StanHuff, CecilLynch, Guoqian, [IPcaller], ??P34 16:20:07 Topic: High-level concept mapping to RDF (AR typeCodes, etc.) 16:20:22 ACTION: Tony and Rob to report their plan on High-level concept mapping to RDF work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action08] -- PENDING 16:20:22 Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel. 16:20:54 ACTION: Tony and all to decide on a wiki for Term Info work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action09] -- PENDING 16:20:54 Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel. 16:21:05 Should be an action for Rob instead of Tony. 16:21:31 -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/HCLS/ClinicalObservationsInteroperability/TermInfo HCLS TermInfo page 16:21:41 + +33.1.73.71.aahh 16:21:51 Topic: Comparison of FHIR ontology approaches 16:22:39 please ignore the next hand to go up 16:23:03 + +1.617.500.aaii 16:23:14 ericP has changed the topic to: https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/157514853 16:23:15 Zakim, ??P6 is mscottm 16:23:15 +mscottm; got it 16:24:07 gotomeeting link: https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/157514853 16:25:36 scribenick: ericP 16:26:06 Cecil has joined #HCLS 16:26:13 Tony: this is exploratory work to see the issues around an ontology for FHIR 16:26:33 ... w3c defines many exchange formats 16:26:46 ... RDFXML is widely used 16:27:16 ... will present in Turtle 'cause ericP proposed that. i never look at the bits so RDF/XML is fine for me 16:27:32 ... in FHIR, you exchange a fragment of an ontology 16:27:57 ... but if you're using a SemWeb environment, you can import other ontologies to see the full picture 16:28:17 ... the refs to resources are like FHIR resources 16:28:48 Tony Mallia's FHIR ontology slides: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2014Nov/att-0048/FHIR_OWLv3.pdf 16:28:50 ... but in terminologies, you express it as an RDF URI which you have gotten from some other mechanism 16:29:07 ... in the exchange, we see that it's a system of ontologies: 16:29:12 ... .. exchange 16:29:17 ... .. terminology 16:29:22 ... .. instance record 16:29:24 ... . 16:29:40 ... next step: work out the distributed ontology 16:30:21 ... fhir types point to terms. you change what is mostly the facts to a recieving system which maps it to pictures 16:31:03 ... slide 4: ballot adverse reaction example 16:31:21 ... example symptoms is embedded rather than a resource 16:31:36 ... exposure has an external link to the substance 16:32:18 dbooth: is this an appropriate example? 16:32:45 cecil: by "embodded objects", you mean attributes of the resource itself 16:33:04 daniel has joined #hcls 16:33:06 Tony: we have a mixture of patterns which we need to deal with 16:33:18 .., need to figure out how we'd map from one to another 16:33:30 ... [slide 6] 16:33:40 ... an XML element name points to a type in the schema 16:33:48 ... RDF has a direct expression of type 16:34:43 ... elements ref'd in object properties can be embedded or external 16:35:34 -??P34 16:35:51 ... example asserts that record:AR123456 is a fhir:AdverseReaction, as well as a SNOMED 241931004 16:35:52 +??P2 16:36:30 ... protege threw in that it was a named individual 16:37:24 ... do we talk about a symptom as an AdverseReaction? 16:37:44 ... in RDF, we don't care if a node is local or needs to be resolved via a query 16:38:01 dbooth: record: is instance data? 16:38:02 -??P2 16:38:32 +??P2 16:38:54 Marc_Twagirumukiza: this SNOMED code is a big class. do we expect to have granular codes e.g. skin rash? 16:39:16 Tony: snomed equiv need not be expressed in the instance. 16:40:10 ... the relationshop between fhir:AdverseReaction and the equiv snomed term would not appear in the instance data 16:40:20 ... [slide 7] 16:40:52 ... defining constraints about an "Adverse Reaction" 16:41:14 ... this is a style for doing a FHIR ontology 16:41:24 ... [slide 8] 16:41:54 ... this is a slive of a snapshot of the SNOMED ontology 16:42:07 s/slive/slice/ 16:43:09 ... there are versioned variants (seen at the bottom) 16:43:49 Cecil: if you're looking at an individual FHIR resource, why would you carry the subclass? 16:44:03 ... could get verbose 16:44:18 Tony: payload just has the ref to 241931004 16:44:31 ... the rest is in the SNOMED ontology 16:45:05 ... [slide 9] 16:45:25 ... in CID-11, codes are classes, as with SNOMED-CT 16:46:12 s/CID-11/ICD-11/ 16:47:18 Guoqian: ICD comes from WHO. WHO has produced an RDF rendering of ICD-11Beta 16:47:21 Mistake on Tony's slide: ICD-11 is from WHO, not ISO. 16:47:46 Tony: do you have an example of the formation of WHO URLs? 16:48:02 Guoqian: will see if i can share 16:48:15 Tony: probably similar to IHTSDO's approach 16:48:19 ACTION: Guoqian to figure out whether he can share URI conventions for ICD-11 16:48:19 Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel. 16:48:26 ... [slide 10] 16:49:09 ... when you import other ontologies, you see the larger picture 16:49:55 ... notation: '?' indicates a value set 16:50:14 ... [slide 11 - combined ontology] 16:50:37 ... alergy instance in the middle. 16:51:19 ... all of this binding occurs with closures in the RDF 16:51:46 ... [slide 12 - example with allergy to penicillin] 16:52:25 ... when you say "some penicillin", it's idenifying an abstract 16:52:39 ... those may be better in the terminology 16:52:53 ... but when it's a particular instance, better in the instance 16:53:47 Cecil: if you're using owl:someOf, your saying that it's an unknown instance. 16:54:15 ... if i wanted to describe this, i'd put it in a SubstanceAdministration resource with a lot ID/batch, etc. 16:55:06 JoshM: when we see a FHIR representation, we see an instance. where did that some come from 16:55:10 ... ? 16:55:29 s/some/"some"/ 16:55:47 Tony: came from me playing with it, to get it to connect to a SNOMED penicillin 16:56:21 ... this is an alergy to something that may happen in the future 16:56:45 Cecil: it's implied that it happened at some date or at least that you recorded it on some date. 16:56:48 Tony: record:SomePenicillin means a dose of penicillin -- not the OWL notion of "some". 16:57:03 Tony: [slide 13] 16:57:11 ... view of allergy 1 16:57:36 ... infers that it's an alergic disposition and moderage 16:57:51 ... causative agent is inferred 16:58:18 ... goal was to represent this in OWL. 16:58:28 ... i didn't see any real problems 16:58:37 ... working from the UML concept model 16:58:53 David: Did you translate the FHIR data manually to RDF? Tony: Yes. 16:59:13 ... saying "this is an artifact of the ITS XML representation of FHIR, could it be different with RDF?" 17:00:47 -[IPcaller.a] 17:01:49 Marc_Twagirumukiza: can we use the SNOMED predicates outside of SNOMED? 17:01:51 -Joshua_Phillips 17:02:15 ___: The use of SNOMED as predicates. Can we use them out of SNOMED terminology, in FHIR? 17:02:21 dbooth: in theory those SNOMED predicates tie in to the rest of the SNOMED ontology 17:02:24 s/___/Marc/ 17:02:33 Tony: this was a big discussion in ht eearlier work 17:02:37 -patricia 17:02:52 -CecilLynch 17:02:55 ... when do you bring in other stuff and when does it overlap FHIR structure 17:03:24 dbooth: have to make sure you don't contradict SNOMED so if you import more SNOMED later, we won't violate anything 17:03:51 daniel: this has been explored in CIMI 17:04:18 ... consider that any ontology with the ambition of SNOMED-CT will be less expressive than an information structure. 17:04:29 ... in an ontology of health care, you'd represent universals 17:05:07 ... having laterality in the information model and the term model is good but the terminology model will be less expressive. 17:05:30 dbooth: this is a motivation for step 6 in the yosemite project 17:05:37 -Guoqian 17:05:40 RRSAgent, please draft minue 17:05:40 I'm logging. I don't understand 'please draft minue', ericP. Try /msg RRSAgent help 17:05:44 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 17:05:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-minutes.html ericP 17:05:44 -??P2 17:05:45 -DBooth 17:05:46 -StanHuff 17:05:47 -rhausam 17:05:48 -??P22 17:05:48 - +33.1.73.71.aahh 17:05:49 -mscottm 17:05:51 -[IPcaller] 17:05:52 RRSAgent, please make log world 17:05:58 -Tony 17:06:05 -EricP 17:06:05 The need for consistency across ontologies is one of the reasons for Step 6 of the http://yosemiteproject.org/ roadmap. 17:06:11 ADJOURNED 17:08:02 s/Work Projects/Review of Work Projects/ 17:11:06 disconnecting the lone participant, +1.617.500.aaii, in SW_HCLS()11:00AM 17:11:08 SW_HCLS()11:00AM has ended 17:11:08 Attendees were +1.978.794.aaaa, DBooth, +1.617.500.aabb, +1.801.949.aacc, +1.202.260.aadd, EricP, +1.410.624.aaee, Joshua_Phillips, [IPcaller], +1.801.507.aaff, Tony, patricia, 17:11:08 ... +1.415.537.aagg, StanHuff, CecilLynch, rhausam, mscottm, Guoqian, +33.1.73.71.aahh, +1.617.500.aaii 17:22:47 IRC info: https://www.w3.org/wiki/IRC 17:24:05 meeting notes conventions: http://dev.w3.org/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm 17:28:13 rrsagent, make logs public 17:28:36 dbooth has changed the topic to: HCLS 17:36:10 i/zakim, RobHausem is really rhausam/Postponed approving last week's minutes, because no ITS co-chair is on the call to permit formal approval. 17:40:48 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:40:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-minutes.html dbooth 17:41:15 Meeting: HCLS with Tony Mallia on FHIR ontology 17:41:39 Chair: DavidBooth 17:43:26 s/ So should I be dialing into gotomeeting, or the W3C bridge?// 17:43:43 s/ The channel topic indicates gotomeeting// 17:43:51 s/ Ah// 17:44:07 s/ I would like to suggest that talky.io may not work for this particular group-chat use case.// 17:44:39 s/ Is there a meeting happening somewhere? I tried bridge, talky, and gotomeeting// 17:44:51 s/ will audio be on gotomeeting as well?// 17:45:15 s/ Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.//g 17:46:58 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:46:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-minutes.html dbooth 17:49:31 s|s/ So should I be dialing into gotomeeting, or the W3C bridge?//|| 17:49:39 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:49:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-minutes.html dbooth 17:50:24 s/So should I be dialing into gotomeeting, or the W3C bridge?// 17:50:30 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:50:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-minutes.html dbooth 17:52:12 s|s/So should I be dialing into gotomeeting, or the W3C bridge?//|| 17:52:29 s/So should I be dialing into gotomeeting, or the W3C bridge// 17:52:36 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:52:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-minutes.html dbooth 17:53:46 s|s/So should I be dialing into gotomeeting, or the W3C bridge//|| 17:53:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:53:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-minutes.html dbooth 18:00:30 s/Tony and all to decide/Rob and all to decide/ 18:00:48 s/please ignore the next hand to go up/ 18:01:04 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:01:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-minutes.html dbooth 18:01:44 s/embodded/embedded/ 18:02:47 s/ht eearlier/the earlier/ 18:05:01 Present: Tony_Mallia, David_Booth, Josh_Mandel, Rob_Hausam, EricP Joshua_Phillips, Patricia_Grime(sp?), Stan_Huff, Cecil_Lynch, mscottm, Guoqian, Charlie_Mead, Marc_Twagirumukiza, Rafael_Richards (IRC only?), Daniel_Karlsson, Cati_Martinez_Costa (IRC only?) 18:05:07 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:05:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-minutes.html dbooth 18:30:37 trackbot, bye 18:30:37 trackbot has left #hcls 18:30:43 zakim, bye 18:30:43 Zakim has left #hcls 18:30:46 rrsagent, bye 18:30:46 I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-actions.rdf : 18:30:46 ACTION: ericP to set up tracker [1] 18:30:46 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-irc#T16-16-03 18:30:46 ACTION: Tony to find out more details about how iCat handles ICD-11 ont and report back [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action01] -- PENDING [2] 18:30:46 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-irc#T16-17-02 18:30:46 ACTION: Kerstin and Ingeborg to prepare a status and future state ideas for PhUSE-FDA work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action05] -- PENDING [3] 18:30:46 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-irc#T16-19-09 18:30:46 ACTION: Eric to establish/make a wiki page for C-CDA RDF representations work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action06] [4] 18:30:46 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-irc#T16-19-43 18:30:46 ACTION: Tony and Rob to report their plan on High-level concept mapping to RDF work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action08] -- PENDING [5] 18:30:46 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-irc#T16-20-22 18:30:46 ACTION: Tony and all to decide on a wiki for Term Info work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action09] -- PENDING [6] 18:30:46 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-irc#T16-20-54 18:30:46 ACTION: Guoqian to figure out whether he can share URI conventions for ICD-11 [7] 18:30:46 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-irc#T16-48-19