18:59:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
18:59:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-shapes-irc
18:59:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
18:59:02 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #shapes
18:59:04 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
18:59:04 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
18:59:05 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
18:59:05 <trackbot> Date: 20 November 2014
18:59:15 <Arnaud> zakim, this is shapes
18:59:15 <Zakim> ok, Arnaud; that matches DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM
18:59:28 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
18:59:36 <jimkont> jimkont has joined #shapes
18:59:43 <SimonSteyskal> zakim, who's here?
18:59:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0, +1.510.435.aaaa, [IPcaller]
18:59:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see jimkont, Zakim, RRSAgent, AxelPolleres, hknublau, kcoyle, SimonSteyskal, Arnaud, SteveS, betehess, rhiaro, sandro, ericP, trackbot
18:59:50 <Zakim> +Arnaud
18:59:58 <kcoyle> zakim, aaaa is me
18:59:58 <Zakim> +kcoyle; got it
18:59:59 <SimonSteyskal> zakim, ??P0 is SimonSteyskal
19:00:00 <Zakim> +SimonSteyskal; got it
19:00:18 <kcoyle> someone needs to mute...
19:00:24 <kcoyle> background noise
19:00:30 <Arnaud> thanks
19:01:04 <Zakim> +pfps
19:01:05 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
19:01:10 <Arnaud> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2014.11.20
19:01:14 <Arnaud> chair: Arnaud
19:01:22 <hknublau> Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
19:01:22 <Zakim> +hknublau; got it
19:01:23 <pfps> pfps has joined #shapes
19:01:23 <Arnaud> regrets: Nick, DavidM, ericP
19:01:30 <Zakim> +Arthur_Ryman
19:01:44 <pfps> zakim, this is shapes
19:01:44 <Zakim> pfps, this was already DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM
19:01:45 <Zakim> ok, pfps; that matches DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM
19:02:54 <Zakim> +Tony
19:03:14 <harold> harold has joined #shapes
19:03:31 <arthur> arthur has joined #shapes
19:03:46 <Zakim> + +1.978.899.aabb
19:03:51 <Arnaud> zakim, tony is harold
19:03:51 <Zakim> +harold; got it
19:04:30 <Arnaud> scribe: hknublau
19:04:34 <Anamitra> Anamitra has joined #shapes
19:04:41 <pfps> zakim, who is here?
19:04:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see SimonSteyskal, kcoyle, [IPcaller], Arnaud, pfps, hknublau, Arthur_Ryman, harold, +1.978.899.aabb
19:04:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see Anamitra, arthur, harold, pfps, jimkont, Zakim, RRSAgent, AxelPolleres, hknublau, kcoyle, SimonSteyskal, Arnaud, SteveS, betehess, rhiaro, sandro, ericP, trackbot
19:04:49 <Zakim> +??P13
19:05:20 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, ??P13 might be me
19:05:20 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P13 might be me', AxelPolleres
19:05:22 <jimkont> zakim, +1.978.899.aabb is me
19:05:22 <Zakim> +jimkont; got it
<hknublau> topic: Admin
19:05:26 <hknublau> Arnaud: not everyone is happy about the new time of the WG - compromise needed due to time zones
19:05:30 <Zakim> -??P13
19:06:08 <hknublau> ... editing minutes has been an ongoing issue, commonscribe not officially adopted, forced to do the old way
19:06:33 <pfps> I thought that Olivier said to Arnaud that he couldn't  make this time.
19:06:40 <hknublau> ... we now have control over the minutes
19:07:02 <hknublau> ... started cleaning up the minutes
19:07:39 <hknublau> ... decisions are made on the calls, minutes are sent out, approved in the following call
19:07:52 <hknublau> ... should give everyone enough time to react.
19:08:33 <hknublau> ... previous minutes hopefully easy to accept, because no formal decisions were made.
19:08:52 <hknublau> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 5 November Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2014/11/05-shapes-minutes.html
19:09:00 <hknublau> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 12 November Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-shapes-minutes.html
19:09:07 <pfps> They both looked fine to me
19:09:12 <SimonSteyskal> +1
19:09:20 <hknublau> +1
19:09:51 <arthur> +1
19:10:02 <hknublau> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of the 5 November Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2014/11/05-shapes-minutes.html
19:10:11 <hknublau> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of the 12 November Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-shapes-minutes.html
19:10:41 <pfps> The minutes were pointed at in the agenda for this meeting.  One task that you take up when joining the working group is to look over these minutes before the meeting to see if there are any concerns!
19:10:56 <Zakim> +??P13
19:11:09 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, ??P13 is me
19:11:09 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres; got it
19:11:10 <hknublau> ... keeping records of decisions is important, chair has to prove things to W3C
19:11:54 <hknublau> ... I created some documentation on how to edit them.
19:12:41 <kcoyle> add: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribe.perl link to scribe.perl
19:12:45 <hknublau> ... either edit the IRC log and then re-generate the HTML, or modify the HTML directly.
19:13:19 <hknublau> ... I prefer editing the log directly, because the HTML is generated automatically.
19:15:03 <hknublau> ... editing HTML and then PUTting has issues (as Peter stated): changes may be overwritten.
19:15:16 <pfps> q+
19:15:37 <hknublau> ... suggestion: scribe does initial clean up
19:15:41 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:15:57 <hknublau> Peter: we should get CommonScribe, so that we just have one way.
19:15:59 <kcoyle> q+
19:16:11 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
19:16:45 <hknublau> kcoyle: there is advantage in leaving the original minutes, to look them up.
19:17:11 <hknublau> Arnaud: yes the original minutes will always remain there.
19:17:33 <hknublau> ... HTML page will have link to original log.
19:18:20 <hknublau> ... I would prefer IRC log editing (over CommonScribe), due to auto-formatting.
19:19:33 <hknublau> ... CommonScribe not an option for technical reasons.
19:19:43 <hknublau> Topic: Next meeting
19:20:05 <hknublau> Arnaud: No meeting next week due to Thanksgiving.
19:20:29 <hknublau> Topic: Tracking of actions and issues
19:21:07 <hknublau> Arnaud: Issues has a technical problem, reported to admins
19:21:22 <hknublau> ... Protocol: anyone can raise an issue
19:21:55 <Arnaud> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/raised
19:21:56 <hknublau> ... group decides on how to handle them, reject them.
19:23:14 <hknublau> ... do not use Notes under Issue
19:23:28 <andimou> andimou has joined #shapes
19:23:41 <pfps> q+
19:23:47 <hknublau> ... instead use the mailing list, will (in the future) be automatically linked to issue
19:23:49 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:24:34 <hknublau> ... we can start discussing Issues now, the links will be created later after the bug is fixed.
19:24:51 <hknublau> Peter: concerns about losing first bits of discussions.
19:25:27 <Arnaud> ISSUE-1
19:25:27 <trackbot> ISSUE-1 -- What inferencing can or must be used? -- raised
19:25:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/1
19:25:28 <hknublau> Arnaud: Let's look at all issues one by one now.
19:26:18 <pfps> I changed the name!
19:26:19 <hknublau> ... Issue 1: Inferencing is an important question to address
19:26:48 <AxelPolleres> +1 to that this is an issue (where I think that it can be resolved by just allowing to parameterize inference/entailment regime used)
19:26:52 <hknublau> PROPOSED: open ISSUE-1
19:26:55 <pfps> +1
19:26:59 <SimonSteyskal> +1
19:27:05 <kcoyle> +1
19:27:07 <jimkont> +1
19:27:09 <arthur> +1
19:27:10 <harold> +1
19:27:46 <hknublau> RESOLVED: open ISSUE-1 http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/1
19:28:12 <hknublau> ... Issue 2: Target audience
19:29:14 <kcoyle> +q
19:29:21 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
19:29:50 <arthur> q+
19:29:51 <hknublau> kcoyle: need to consider combination of users and skills
19:30:28 <Arnaud> ack arthur
19:30:32 <hknublau> ... we should also capture the classes of users.
19:30:53 <hknublau> arthur: let's not call them "Audience"
19:31:47 <hknublau> Arnaud: Terminology may need to be adjusted, not just about skills
19:32:27 <hknublau> arthur: users may not even be humans.
19:34:14 <hknublau> PROPOSED: open ISSUE-2, changing it to be about what users and agents are expected to consume this technology and their associated skills and capabilities
19:34:49 <pfps> +1
19:34:52 <SimonSteyskal> +1
19:34:55 <kcoyle> +1
19:34:55 <arthur> +1
19:34:58 <harold> +1
19:34:59 <Anamitra> +1
19:35:05 <jimkont> +1
19:35:06 <AxelPolleres> +1
19:35:12 <hknublau> RESOLVED: open ISSUE-2, changing it to be about what users and agents are expected to consume this technology and their associated skills and capabilities
19:35:25 <Arnaud> ISSUE-3
19:35:25 <trackbot> ISSUE-3 -- How is a shape associated with a graph? -- raised
19:35:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/3
19:35:42 <arthur> q+
19:36:22 <Arnaud> ack arthur
19:36:47 <pfps> q+
19:36:56 <hknublau> Arthur: OSLC example goes the other direction (point 1)
19:36:57 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:37:16 <arthur> q+
19:37:20 <hknublau> pfps: Association is symmetric and therefore covers it both ways.
19:37:32 <Arnaud> ack arthur
19:38:28 <hknublau> ... my note doesn't need to be discussed now.
19:39:26 <hknublau> Arnaud: Description is intentionally generic.
19:39:49 <hknublau> PROPOSED: open ISSUE-3 Shape Association
19:39:51 <pfps> +1
19:39:53 <AxelPolleres> +1 to this being an issue (I believe that a shape can be simply defined being associated to the results of a unary SPARQL query, which *could* be a type query,  where that in fact means they are referring to *resources* in a graph, not to a graph)
19:39:54 <arthur> +1
19:40:02 <SimonSteyskal> +1
19:40:03 <kcoyle> +1
19:40:05 <jimkont> +1
19:40:06 <Anamitra> +1
19:40:09 <AxelPolleres> q+
19:40:31 <Arnaud> ack AxelPolleres
19:41:24 <hknublau> RESOLVED: open ISSUE-3 Shape Association
19:42:08 <hknublau> Arnaud: I encourage everyone to open issues
19:42:29 <AxelPolleres> q+
19:42:36 <Arnaud> ack AxelPolleres
19:43:02 <hknublau> Arnaud: status has changed to "open".
19:43:40 <hknublau> ... At Last Call all issues must be closed, so this is an important formal process.
19:43:56 <hknublau> Topic: Glossary
19:44:27 <hknublau> Arnaud: Thanks to Peter for starting this document.
19:45:16 <hknublau> ... if you are making significant changes, I recommend sending an email to the list too.
19:45:47 <hknublau> Topic: User Stories, Requirements
19:46:24 <hknublau> Arnaud: most user stories now have info on who created them, reverse engineered from pirate pad.
19:47:01 <pfps> q+
19:47:06 <hknublau> ... possibly errors introduced: everyone please double-check.
19:47:13 <kcoyle> q+
19:47:15 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:47:45 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
19:47:47 <hknublau> pfps: please avoid judgemental words such as "easily".
19:48:22 <hknublau> kcoyle: I do not have access to the wiki.
19:48:41 <hknublau> Arnaud: will follow up with W3C staff.
19:48:42 <Zakim> -jimkont
19:48:58 <hknublau> kcoyle: therefore DC requirements not there yet.
19:49:46 <hknublau> Arnaud: If you add a section (such as a solution in a particular language), please mark it with your name.
19:49:58 <hknublau> ... agree with Peter, let's be as objective as possible.
19:50:28 <AxelPolleres> as a remark to ISSUE-1, side remark, this might well relate to the (postponed) SPARQL feature http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:ParameterizedInference
19:51:06 <hknublau> ... we will need an editor of the Use Cases deliverable.
19:51:56 <kcoyle> +q
19:52:09 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
19:52:11 <hknublau> ... will create another page for Requirements, esp those that we have agreed on.
19:52:18 <kcoyle> https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/requirements_analysis
19:52:40 <hknublau> kcoyle: DC is going through requirements, hopefully leading to a smaller catalogue.
19:53:24 <hknublau> +q
19:53:33 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
19:53:39 <AxelPolleres> q+ to ask about ISSUE-1
19:54:50 <arthur> q+
19:54:55 <Arnaud> ack AxelPolleres
19:54:55 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask about ISSUE-1
19:55:49 <pfps> q+
19:56:06 <hknublau> hknublau: would like feedback on my recent suggestion:
19:56:07 <hknublau> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2014Nov/0224.html
19:56:24 <hknublau> I believe this may be a compromise.
19:56:42 <Arnaud> ack arthur
19:57:06 <hknublau> arhur: will respond on mailing list soon.
19:57:43 <hknublau> pfps: we should be looking at various ways in whcih shapes with are associated with data
19:58:00 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:58:26 <hknublau> ... switching to technical mechanisms at this stage sounds premature.
19:59:25 <arthur> q+
19:59:32 <Arnaud> ack arthur
19:59:51 <hknublau> arthur: where should that list go.
20:00:07 <hknublau> Arnaud: send email, shall become a wiki page.
20:00:17 <pfps> Ideally this should be started via mechanisms that are tied to the ISSUE.
20:01:57 <Zakim> -harold
20:01:58 <Zakim> -Arthur_Ryman
20:02:00 <Zakim> -kcoyle
20:02:00 <AxelPolleres> bye all!
20:02:01 <Zakim> -pfps
20:02:04 <Zakim> -Arnaud
20:02:06 <Zakim> -SimonSteyskal
20:02:07 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
20:02:14 <Zakim> -hknublau
20:02:15 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has left #shapes
20:02:18 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
20:02:19 <Zakim> DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM has ended
20:02:19 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.510.435.aaaa, [IPcaller], Arnaud, kcoyle, SimonSteyskal, pfps, hknublau, Arthur_Ryman, harold, jimkont, AxelPolleres
<hknublau> present: Arnaud, kcoyle, SimonSteyskal, pfps, hknublau, Arthur_Ryman, harold, jimkont, AxelPolleres
20:02:25 <Arnaud> regrets: Nick, DavidM, ericP, steveS
20:02:45 <Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
20:02:45 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
20:02:45 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
20:02:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
20:02:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/20-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
20:02:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
20:02:54 <RRSAgent> I see no action items