16:55:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dnt
16:55:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-dnt-irc
16:55:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:55:47 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dnt
16:55:49 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be TRACK
16:55:50 <trackbot> Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group Teleconference
16:55:50 <trackbot> Date: 12 November 2014
16:55:51 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
17:00:05 <Walt_Michel> Walt_Michel has joined #DNT
17:00:40 <ChrisPedigoDCN> ChrisPedigoDCN has joined #dnt
17:01:24 <Zakim> T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has now started
17:01:30 <Zakim> +npdoty
17:01:58 <rvaneijk> rvaneijk has joined #dnt
17:02:00 <Zakim> + +1.202.370.aaaa
17:02:05 <Zakim> +WaltMichel
17:02:07 <fielding> fielding has joined #dnt
17:02:09 <kulick> kulick has joined #dnt
17:02:11 <moneill2> moneill2 has joined #dnt
17:02:11 <Zakim> +kulick
17:02:14 <Zakim> +ChrisPedigoOPA
17:02:18 <vincent> vincent has joined #dnt
17:02:22 <eberkower> eberkower has joined #dnt
17:02:23 <Zakim> +vincent
17:02:24 <robsherman> robsherman has joined #dnt
17:02:31 <WileyS> WileyS has joined #dnt
17:02:35 <justin> justin has joined #dnt
17:02:43 <justin> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:02:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see npdoty, +1.202.370.aaaa, WaltMichel, kulick, ChrisPedigoOPA, vincent
17:02:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:02:56 <justin> zakim, aaaa is robsherman
17:02:59 <moneill2> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
17:03:00 <Zakim> +robsherman; got it
17:03:00 <Zakim> +moneill2; got it
17:03:07 <justin> zakim, robsherman has me
17:03:07 <Zakim> +justin; got it
17:03:15 <Zakim> +WileyS
17:03:25 <Zakim> +rvaneijk
17:03:29 <Zakim> +eberkower
17:03:40 <eberkower> Zakim, mute me please
17:03:40 <Zakim> eberkower should now be muted
17:04:03 <rvaneijk> ok
17:04:04 <eberkower> yes
17:04:04 <WileyS> Yes
17:04:04 <vincent> yes
17:04:04 <moneill2> yes
17:04:05 <kulick> y
17:04:10 <Zakim> + +1.949.573.aabb
17:04:23 <justin> scribe please???
17:04:29 <justin> zakim, pick a scribe
17:04:29 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose WaltMichel
17:04:30 <fielding> zakim, aabb is fielding
17:04:32 <Zakim> +fielding; got it
17:04:35 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #dnt
17:04:37 <Zakim> +Carl_Cargill
17:05:13 <Zakim> +[Apple]
17:05:13 <npdoty> Walt_Michel, are you able to scribe today?
17:05:20 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
17:05:20 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
17:05:23 <justin> zakim, pick a scribe
17:05:23 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose vincent
17:05:28 <vincent> ok
17:05:38 <npdoty> scribenick: vincent
17:05:48 <justin> scribenick: vincent
17:06:20 <Carl> Carl has joined #dnt
17:06:29 <vincent> justin: few issues left, dsinger sent an email about the last issues he had, quick summary
17:06:52 <npdoty> http://www.w3.org/mid/8942F161-22AB-4C9B-84F3-376492EF0083@apple.com
17:07:02 <vincent> dsinger: several issues from Anna Voncrasten bu not prefered alternative proposed
17:07:47 <vincent> moneill2: detected script origin is similar to the origin
17:08:02 <fielding> s/Anna Voncrasten bu/Anne van Kesteren but/
17:08:03 <Zakim> +Wendy
17:08:14 <Zakim> +hefferjr
17:08:21 <vincent> ... you can change the detected script origin (missed the rest)
17:09:00 <npdoty> agree with dsinger about the intended scope, but I guess I'm not sure the exact terminology
17:09:07 <vincent> dsinger: issues unresolved cause we don't want the library provider to be the origin but the user
17:09:16 <fielding> q+
17:09:17 <vincent> ... issue unresolved at this point
17:09:30 <wseltzer> q+
17:09:31 <moneill2> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110525/origin-0.html#origin
17:09:32 <vincent> justin: what the best approach?
17:09:34 <justin> ack fielding
17:09:34 <npdoty> q+ to ask someone at w3c
17:09:41 <wseltzer> q- to defer to npd
17:10:17 <vincent> fielding: most of the comments that are left are along lines things that are no longer approved
17:11:14 <vincent> dsinger: I intend to follow the cookie model
17:12:10 <vincent> dsinger: one question; why does= not the lsit return ta promess
17:12:27 <fielding> s/no longer approved/no longer considered good practice by the browser folks, but nevertheless okay if that is the use case we want/
17:12:37 <vincent> dsinger: we've tweaked thte model for it to be synchronous
17:13:01 <WileyS> The server will simply claim an OOBC since they've already asked the user.  The browser attempting to get in the middle of this will further harm the standard.
17:13:03 <vincent> ... at the time of call you can assume that the exception has been registred and you only need to confirm during next visit
17:14:11 <WileyS> +1 to Nick
17:14:20 <fielding> yes, I think improving the text around why the call is synchronous is sufficient
17:14:23 <justin> q?
17:14:41 <vincent> npdoty: it's probable that the UA should not check the confirm API and assume it has consent when regetering an exception
17:14:52 <vincent> justin: no opposition
17:14:56 <npdoty> action: singer to write improved informative text around the synchronous api
17:14:56 <trackbot> Created ACTION-464 - Write improved informative text around the synchronous api [on David Singer - due 2014-11-19].
17:14:57 <moneill2> dsinger, i put a link to the def of effective script origin on irc
17:15:03 <justin> ack npdoty
17:15:03 <Zakim> npdoty, you wanted to ask someone at w3c
17:15:42 <vincent> npdoty: we may need more help on cross site, maybe we would check with other person at W3C
17:15:48 <justin> issue-266?
17:15:48 <trackbot> issue-266 -- automatic expiration of a tracking preference exception via API parameter -- raised
17:15:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/266
17:16:19 <npdoty> will contact an editor on the w3c team, which I think should be sufficient, though we could also talk to some other wg
17:16:34 <vincent> justin: we a general agreement, moneill2 have volontary to proposed text on site wide and webwide exception
17:16:47 <vincent> moneill2: text has been sent last night
17:17:02 <fielding> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2014Oct/0089.html
17:17:05 <vincent> ... the language covert both sitewide and webwide excpetion
17:17:12 <npdoty> dsinger, are you doing the integration of moneill2's proposal into the draft?
17:17:16 <vincent> dsinger: reviewed but not in detail, seems right
17:17:26 <dsinger> sorry, we need to reach resolution on the siteName and explanationString
17:18:02 <vincent> justin: the open issue wanted to know if it was marked at risk, anyone suggest not marking it at risk
17:18:05 <npdoty> q+ on siteName and explanationString
17:18:09 <vincent> ... all on the same page on this one
17:18:26 <vincent> dsinger: what the resolution on sitename explanationString
17:19:07 <vincent> several people pointed out that we should delete them, something presented after the fact could be worst cause you may not remember but npdoty is pushing back
17:19:15 <Zakim> -moneill2
17:20:00 <vincent> npdoty: they are not armful, we are not exposing new resources, if the site really want to see the user they can ignore the signal
17:20:22 <vincent> .. it could be helpful, we need a context about the permission request
17:20:30 <npdoty> s/armful/harmful/
17:20:31 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:20:45 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:20:52 <WileyS> That's for regulators to deal with - not the standard
17:20:54 <vincent> dsinger: there is a difference with a status that diresgard DNT is different than a site pretending to respect DNT and not respecting it
17:21:08 <fielding> my intuition (no real experience here) is that siteName might be misleading since the domain is what matters, but explanation might be useful for the user
17:21:15 <WileyS> We already have an eco-system to help identify bad actors
17:21:18 <fielding> q?
17:21:19 <vincent> justin: anyone else has a feeling about this?
17:21:21 <npdoty> q-
17:21:49 <vincent> dsinger: we could find a middleground and they how they should be presented if they are presented to the user
17:21:50 <WileyS> I believe we should keep them - thank you.
17:22:03 <vincent> justin: let's go with that, we'll send the proposal to the list
17:22:18 <npdoty> we can send that as a response and if we get more detailed pushback, maybe others will convince us that we're wrong about it
17:22:19 <vincent> issue 262?
17:22:28 <npdoty> issue-262?
17:22:28 <trackbot> issue-262 -- guidance regarding server responses and timing -- pending review
17:22:28 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/262
17:22:29 <vincent> issue-262 ?
17:22:29 <trackbot> issue-262 -- guidance regarding server responses and timing -- pending review
17:22:29 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/262
17:22:58 <npdoty> yay for long flights
17:23:00 <vincent> fielding: I expect to work on that on the flight back
17:23:01 <justin> justin has joined #dnt
17:23:31 <npdoty> action-463 due Friday
17:23:31 <trackbot> Set action-463 to draft a g response for exchanges due date to 2014-11-14.
17:23:33 <vincent> justin: anyone else want to provide an alternative? WileyS language was more orthogonal
17:23:45 <WileyS> We added a few conditions last week
17:23:47 <WileyS> +q
17:23:47 <rvaneijk> q+
17:23:55 <justin> ack wileys
17:24:28 <vincent> WileyS: we added a few conditions last week, first only the bid winner can make the claim, all bid loosers have to de-identify the informaiton
17:24:32 <moneill2_> moneill2_ has joined #dnt
17:24:36 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:24:47 <vincent> ... the bid winner will verify the exception of the domain
17:24:59 <npdoty> can someone write that up if we need a text change?
17:24:59 <moneill2_> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
17:24:59 <Zakim> +moneill2_; got it
17:25:08 <vincent> ... bid losers get rid of everything, bid winners confirm during the next interactions
17:25:24 <justin> ack rvan
17:25:32 <vincent> rvaneijk: We should propose text on the wiki to compare the different proposal
17:25:46 <vincent> ... several proposals are considered
17:26:05 <justin> q?
17:26:06 <vincent> justin: we will do that and put proposal on the wiki and we could add more
17:26:27 <vincent> justin: let's wait for fielding's porposal and see if we have an agreement
17:26:34 <vincent> justin: any other TPE issues?
17:26:49 <justin> issue-235?
17:26:49 <trackbot> issue-235 -- Auditability requirement in Reasonable Security section -- raised
17:26:49 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/235
17:27:06 <npdoty> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Privacy/TPWG/Change_Proposal_Remove_auditable_security_requirement
17:27:16 <WileyS> Let's please drop this.
17:27:26 <vincent> justin: people are reading this requirement differently, we may move to a call for objection on this issue
17:27:50 <justin> q?
17:27:57 <vincent> ...walter wated to make the argument that it is not as scary as many understood
17:28:11 <WileyS> If industry insiders are nervous about this language, can you imagine how non-insider regulators will interpret the language?
17:28:15 <npdoty> q+
17:28:20 <vincent> ... we discuss on email one last time and then move to cfo
17:28:29 <justin> ack npd
17:28:50 <vincent> npdoty: on issue 235, we could do some clean-up to make the issue easier to understand
17:29:25 <vincent> justin: issue about the definition of DNT:0, is there anything still standing on that issue?
17:29:35 <vincent> npdoty: no, that's just an artifact
17:29:39 <justin> issue-24?
17:29:39 <trackbot> issue-24 -- Possible exemption for fraud detection and defense -- pending review
17:29:39 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/24
17:29:53 <WileyS> I have not - how did I miss that email?
17:29:56 <npdoty> will double-check on DNT:0 to make sure I did the actual implementation. apologies if I left that on the agenda due to bad copy/paste
17:30:06 <vincent> justin: npdoty merge the proposal that WileyS and dsinger put together
17:30:08 <justin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2014Nov/0025.html
17:30:51 <vincent> npdoty: we had a text a lot of people agreed on and WileyS had specific concern about graduate response and data minimzation
17:31:26 <vincent> ... tried to move examples to examples instead of definition, we integrated the examples and remove the definition
17:31:35 <WileyS> Looks good to me
17:31:53 <fielding> npdoty, did you look at http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/drafts/tracking-compliance-i203b.html#security
17:32:00 <WileyS> I've read it - I like the bi-directional examples (ramp-up, ramp-down)
17:32:22 <npdoty> should I put that in the draft and if people have objections on the list, then we can change it?
17:32:28 <vincent> justin: we can discuss that a little bit on the list but it seems we're good on that
17:32:44 <npdoty> fielding, I think the proposal is similar to that
17:33:14 <vincent> justin: dicussing definition of party proposed by fielding
17:33:41 <fielding> yes, +1 to the graduated response proposal
17:33:41 <vincent> npdoty: if we think it's just clarifying then I'll work on the edits
17:33:53 <justin> q?
17:34:11 <vincent> justin: any other TPE or TCS issue to discuss?
17:34:40 <WileyS> Can we cancel our meeting the week of Thanksgiving?
17:35:13 <vincent> justin: on the cfo on audience measurement, the objection result is that the calbration of the audience measurement is stronger argument that the argument against
17:35:27 <fielding> that would be November 26
17:35:43 <npdoty> right, no call on Wednesday, November 26, the day before Thanksgiving
17:35:50 <WileyS> Thank you Justin...
17:35:54 <Zakim> -ChrisPedigoOPA
17:35:54 <rvaneijk> bye
17:35:55 <Zakim> -[Apple]
17:35:56 <Zakim> -WaltMichel
17:35:57 <Zakim> -vincent
17:35:58 <Zakim> -Carl_Cargill
17:35:58 <Zakim> -robsherman
17:35:59 <Zakim> -WileyS
17:36:00 <Zakim> -kulick
17:36:01 <Zakim> -Wendy
17:36:01 <Zakim> -npdoty
17:36:02 <Zakim> -hefferjr
17:36:04 <Zakim> -fielding
17:36:05 <Zakim> -rvaneijk
17:36:06 <Zakim> -moneill2_
17:36:16 <npdoty> Zakim, list attendees
17:36:16 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been npdoty, +1.202.370.aaaa, WaltMichel, kulick, ChrisPedigoOPA, vincent, moneill2, justin, WileyS, rvaneijk, eberkower, +1.949.573.aabb,
17:36:19 <Zakim> ... fielding, Carl_Cargill, dsinger, Wendy, hefferjr, moneill2_
17:36:32 <npdoty> trackbot, end meeting
17:36:32 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:36:32 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been npdoty, +1.202.370.aaaa, WaltMichel, kulick, ChrisPedigoOPA, vincent, moneill2, justin, WileyS, rvaneijk, eberkower, +1.949.573.aabb,
17:36:36 <Zakim> ... fielding, Carl_Cargill, dsinger, Wendy, hefferjr, moneill2_
17:36:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:36:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-dnt-minutes.html trackbot
17:36:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:36:41 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-dnt-actions.rdf :
17:36:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: singer to write improved informative text around the synchronous api [1]
17:36:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-dnt-irc#T17-14-56