14:58:26 RRSAgent has joined #csvw 14:58:26 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-csvw-irc 14:58:40 zakim, start meeting 14:58:40 I don't understand 'start meeting', danbri 14:58:44 trackbot, start meeting 14:58:46 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:58:48 Zakim, this will be CSVW 14:58:48 ok, trackbot; I see DATA_CSVWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes 14:58:49 Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference 14:58:49 Date: 12 November 2014 14:59:14 scribenick: danbri 14:59:16 for now 14:59:21 chair: danbri 14:59:26 agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-11-12 14:59:34 can anyone scribe until jeni gets here? 15:00:31 see also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Nov/0029.html (link added to agenda wiki) 15:00:37 DATA_CSVWG()10:00AM has now started 15:00:44 +??P24 15:00:49 zakim, I am ??P24 15:00:49 +gkellogg; got it 15:01:03 scribenick: gkellogg 15:01:12 thx gregg 15:01:26 +bill-ingram 15:01:28 +danbri 15:02:12 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:02:12 On the phone I see gkellogg, bill-ingram, danbri 15:03:09 jtandy has joined #csvw 15:04:17 http://irc.w3.org/ might help 15:04:29 bandri has joined #csvw 15:04:52 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:04:52 On the phone I see gkellogg, bill-ingram, danbri 15:04:57 jtandy, will you join us? 15:05:09 hi - am struggling to get a zakim line 15:05:21 will keep trying 15:05:37 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Nov/0029.html 15:05:41 <- issue list 15:05:48 +??P49 15:06:04 zakim, ??P49 is jtandy 15:06:04 +jtandy; got it 15:06:05 zakim, ??P49 is me 15:06:06 I already had ??P49 as jtandy, jtandy 15:06:22 danbri: trying to be more driven by GitHub issues. 15:06:37 regrets: ivan, + others 15:06:38 … We’ll postpone message issues until JeniT comes on. 15:06:42 i'll look up the others later 15:06:51 topic: Discussion Issues from Mappings 15:07:10 jtandy: ivan is on route to Australia. 15:07:45 … We can talk on teleconf when no progress made on GitHub. 15:07:57 https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/62 Should the RDF/JSON 15:07:57 transformation check the values? 15:07:57 - CSV to JSON mapping, CSV to RDF mapping 15:08:11 bill-ingram has joined #csvw 15:08:20 … first: issue #62 15:08:33 … we thought the mapping issues could assume all parsing has already been done. 15:08:52 (see github for detailed text, we are not reminuting it all) 15:08:53 Zakim: caller is me 15:09:21 … question is, if we can’t perform a transformation, do we proceed or die? 15:09:37 q? 15:09:41 … My thought is that we can assume parsing has already thrown out bad data. 15:09:54 q+ 15:10:20 danbri: I think this touches on what is being defined: conformance criteria or behavior. 15:10:44 ack me 15:10:49 … If it’s a clas of software, we should just do the easiest thing. Advanced implementaions might do better without being non-conformant. 15:11:19 … A perfectly conformant processor could just pass everything through. 15:11:34 eg. we might say "comformant processors are not required to …" so we only require pass through 15:11:54 gregg: it adds complexity/branching to testing 15:12:14 jtandy: summarizing gkellogg, in order to give us a spec which is testable, we’ll go with the pass-through. 15:12:24 dan proposing simple pass through 15:12:54 gregg: advanced processing needs to be under control of a flag, so all processors can be guaranteed to give same output from same input 15:13:12 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:13:13 On the phone I see gkellogg, bill-ingram, danbri, jtandy 15:13:32 jtanday: I’ll take an action to update GitHub. 15:13:51 I suggest a "Resolution (of those present): " since we have low turnout 15:14:05 resolution of those present: different processor flags to control parsed or raw output. 15:14:48 … pass through literal values in conformant mode, and allow advanced processors to do some contextual parsing/fixing 15:14:49 conformant mode passes through literal values, advanced processors may offer additional contextual checking/fixing (via flags) 15:15:25 gregg: additionally, processors may support an advanced processing flag, which will allow us to test that advanced processors produce consistent output (if that's not over-constraining them) 15:15:33 jtandy to capture this into github issue 15:15:40 rrsagent, pointer? 15:15:40 See http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-csvw-irc#T15-15-40 15:15:50 jtanday: I’ll pass that through, and when we come to actual implementations, we’ll check back. 15:16:10 topic: issue 61: 15:16:23 what should the mapping of an empty cell be for RDF and JSON 15:16:33 danbri: 61 not flagged for discussion 15:16:50 https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/59 How should ``language`` be 15:16:51 used in RDF mapping? 15:16:51 - CSV to RDF mapping 15:16:59 topic: issue 60: how should langauge be used in JSON mapping? 15:17:15 Ivan wrote " • If the content of the cell is not datatyped, and is not a URI, and the language tag's value is not "en", then the generated object should be a language literal with the global language tag set." 15:17:21 jtandy: I’ll come back on that one. 15:18:00 … “How should the localle setting be used in the default mapping?” 15:18:27 rrsagent, pointer? 15:18:27 See http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-csvw-irc#T15-18-27 15:18:32 … unless the data itself is saying the language of a cell is different, the language of the metadata should be applied to every literal. 15:19:00 gregg: lets say default lang was english from default mapping, does the json now tag all its values with English, or is that assumed and untagged? 15:19:17 (non-jsonld, normal colloquial non-rdfy json) 15:19:39 jtandy: "plain old json" 15:19:57 jtandy: suggesting … we transform verbatim and don't add locale info 15:20:01 … I proposed that Plain Old JSON (“POJ”) we don’t put in the default mapping into the output. 15:20:42 +[IPcaller] 15:20:45 q+ to ask if column contains codes e.g. enumerated values 15:20:49 … So, the information in the metadata says it’s German, but that is not reflected in the output. 15:21:15 topic: issue 59 15:22:08 … we assume people can determine this from the complementary language mapping. 15:22:29 s/topic: issue 60/topic: issue 59/ 15:22:48 PROPOSAL: for RDF mapping, apply locale / language tag from metadata to all literal values in output 15:23:21 jenit: I think it’s all string values, because the number 2 is a literal value without language. 15:23:24 s/literal/literal string/ 15:23:30 +1 15:23:31 +1 15:23:32 +1 15:23:33 +1 15:23:34 +1 15:23:55 revisiting https://github.com/w3c/csvw/labels/Requires%20telcon%20discussion/decision 15:23:57 RESOLVED: for RDF mapping, apply locale / language tag from metadata to all literal string values in output 15:24:57 PROPOSAL: for (plain old) JSON mapping, no locale information is added to the JSON output - we assume that people will look at the complimentary metadata for locale information 15:25:27 gregg: in our discussion we talked about locale coming from mapping info, as opposied to locale info that might come from the data itself 15:25:42 e.g. use of a particular col or diff lang. Are you proposing that we drop such from the JSON output also? 15:25:54 jtandy: not sure how i'd write locale info in plain json 15:26:05 gregg: you could use JSON-LD ... 15:26:22 …but simple needs to be simple; people can use json-ld etc if they're more ambitious 15:26:24 jtandy: agree 15:26:35 jtandy: if they care about localle, they should use RDF mapping with JSON-LD serialization. 15:26:39 jenit: I think the metadata will say what the lang cols are in, 15:27:13 jenit: the could always trace it back from the original data. I think in the JSON mapping, the’ll use a property name to indicate that, or it would otherwise be implicit. 15:27:56 (if you want to say a particular locale for plain old json, you might say "property_en" or "property_fr") 15:28:37 +1 15:28:42 (e.g. the property has a human readable hint) 15:28:44 +1 15:28:45 +1 15:28:52 +1 15:29:06 +1 15:29:07 RESOLVED: for (plain old) JSON mapping, no locale information is added to the JSON output - we assume that people will look at the complimentary metadata for locale information 15:29:13 topic: https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/39 What should be generated for a value with datatype in the case of JSON 15:29:39 rrsagent, pointer? 15:29:39 See http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-csvw-irc#T15-29-39 15:29:44 subtopic: issue 39: What should be generated for a value with datatype in the case of JSON 15:30:05 (where JSON is plain old JSON) 15:30:18 jenit: similar to language: how much structure to put in the output. 15:30:35 … I suggested recognizing boolean, numebers and null, and otherwise just map to a string. 15:30:40 jenit: (in github), "Given that we're aiming for a simple JSON mapping for simple JSON users, I think the first option above is the right one: map to a simple string, number, boolean (or null) as appropriate for the datatype." 15:31:26 proposal: re #39 for simple JSON we map to a simple string, number, boolean (or null) as appropriate for the datatype. 15:31:29 +1 15:31:29 +1 15:31:32 +1 15:31:33 +1 15:31:35 +1 15:31:41 resolved: re irc://irc.w3.org:6667/#39 for simple JSON we map to a simple string, number, boolean (or null) as appropriate for the datatype. 15:32:48 topic: https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/30 How to interpret fixed string type values ("Table", "Row",...) 15:32:54 rrsagent, pointer? 15:32:54 See http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-csvw-irc#T15-32-54 15:33:00 subtopic: issue 30: How to interpret fixed string type values ("Table", "Row",...) 15:33:28 jtanday: I assume they’ll figure this out based on context. 15:33:58 danbri: propose we just endorse the editorial decision. 15:34:21 jtanday: we’re trying to make JSON as “brutally simple” as possible. 15:34:30 proposal: #30 aiming for json mapping to be super simple, we endorse the 2nd option as currently implemented by editors 15:34:33 +1 15:34:35 +1 15:34:36 +1 15:35:19 jenit: I’d suggest the authors consider if anything can be considered tables columns. I’m not sure where the typed table mapping applies. 15:35:19 +1 15:35:21 +1 ... noting that further thought is required about whether things should be declared @type 15:35:34 yup 15:36:08 https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/20 Is row by row processing sufficient? 15:36:10 subtopic: issue #20: Is row by row processing sufficient? 15:36:17 topic: https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/20 Is row by row processing sufficient? 15:36:34 resolved: #30 aiming for json mapping to be super simple, we endorse the 2nd option as currently implemented by editors 15:37:07 danbri: I propose that we know many CSV mappings have interdependent rows, for now we’re going to go with row-by-row mapping. 15:37:24 ie. we push work onto preprocessors etc 15:37:33 … and advanced mappings 15:37:43 jtandy: I think we discussed different alternatives, but agreed that the simple mapping is definitely row-by-row, but perhaps the templated mapping might want to consider holdover values from previous rows. 15:38:31 jenit: perhaps a flag in the metadata saying take it from the previous row seems relatively simple, but I’m happy to keep it super-simple for now. 15:38:59 jtandy: I’d suggest people just pre-process the CSV to populate those blanks. 15:39:27 proposal: keep things simple - row by row processing only 15:39:31 +1 15:39:31 +1 15:39:32 +1 15:39:33 +1 15:39:41 resolved: keep things simple - row by row processing only 15:40:10 +1 15:40:15 revisiting https://github.com/w3c/csvw/labels/Requires%20telcon%20discussion/decision 15:40:16 jenit: can we take issues in reverse order? 15:40:17 topic: https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/23 15:40:27 https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/23 CSV Dialect Description 15:40:33 subtopic: issue 23: 15:41:05 jenit: acting on the F2F about trying to map over the flags we describe in the syntax doc into the dialect description within metadata. 15:41:32 … but, also trying to get consistency from the datapackage, such as header 15:41:43 http://w3c.github.io/csvw/metadata/#dialect-descriptions 15:42:14 rrsagent, pointer? 15:42:14 See http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-csvw-irc#T15-42-14 15:42:50 PROPOSAL: we can close https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/23 as it’s sufficiently addressed by current draft 15:42:51 +1 15:42:52 +1 15:42:53 +1 15:42:53 +1 15:42:55 +1 15:43:05 RESOLVED: we can close https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/23 as it’s sufficiently addressed by current draft 15:43:39 topic: https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/54 15:43:46 Using JSON-LD for the metadata document 15:43:56 oh sorry 15:44:08 "Pattern string formats for parsing dates/numbers/durations", rather. 15:44:12 jenit: we discussed using pattern strings for parsing dates, numbers, durations, … in CSV files based on some kind of localle. 15:44:18 http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/ 15:44:19 see http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/ 15:44:39 … The i18n guys pinted us at tr35, which describes the kind of format for pattern strings and relation to different localles. 15:45:19 s/pinted/pointed/ 15:45:22 … having looked at it, it’s quite complicated, and I think we could cleanly drop that as a 1.0 requirement, and layer it on as something extra that implementations can play around with during the 1.0 period to be considered for 2.0 15:45:44 q+ 15:45:49 q- 15:45:56 … We had previously agreed to try to do this; there are strong requirements for parsing different dates and numbers, so I’m a bit uncomfortable dropping it 15:46:38 jtandy: I’ve not looked at the ISO datetime standard, but I understand that it includes a number of structures for how dates and times are recognized. Perhaps that would be a place to start. 15:47:20 q+ to suggest "The CSVW Working Group considered requiring an implementation of http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/ pattern string formats. Given the complexity of that specification, the WG decided against making a normative reference at this stage. Implementors are encouraged to share their experience with TR35 and related specifications as input to possible future versions of this specification." 15:47:24 ack jtandy 15:47:24 jtandy: I think the ISO standard allows things to be changed a bit compared to XSD, but simpler than TR35. 15:47:40 -bill-ingram 15:47:42 there was also http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-datetime pre-xml-schema 15:47:44 jenit: I don’t think it does, but it could. It may be that there’s some flexibility. 15:48:15 +bill-ingram 15:48:19 ACTION: jtandy to review ISO 8601 to determine if it supports 'locale' type strings for date-times 15:48:19 jenit: the other one is number format, such as using “,” instead of “.” as decimal point. 15:48:19 Created ACTION-57 - Review iso 8601 to determine if it supports 'locale' type strings for date-times [on Jeremy Tandy - due 2014-11-19]. 15:48:33 danbri: is that covered by the dialect spec? 15:48:34 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:48:34 On the phone I see gkellogg, danbri, jtandy, JeniT, bill-ingram 15:48:46 jenit: no, it’s not parsing the CSV into values, but parsing the values themselves. 15:48:51 q? 15:49:05 "1000,00" 15:49:13 jtanday: this is about picking up a string, which might have something like “nnn nnn,nn”, where it might be a decimal, vs a typo. 15:49:37 danbri: we ran into this with schema.org, and settled on the western method. 15:49:40 see http://schema.org/price 15:49:55 jtandy: problem is, people don’t publish their data that way. 15:50:03 q+ 15:50:11 ack jtandy 15:50:39 … we have a number of parsing directives, and having one to indicate decimal separator might be helpful. 15:50:41 q+ jenit 15:50:48 ack danbri 15:50:48 danbri, you wanted to suggest "The CSVW Working Group considered requiring an implementation of http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr35/ pattern string formats. Given the complexity of 15:50:51 ... that specification, the WG decided against making a normative reference at this stage. Implementors are encouraged to share their experience with TR35 and related 15:50:51 ... specifications as input to possible future versions of this specification." 15:51:06 ack jenit 15:51:42 jenit: I was trying to think of a way forward which would enable us to make a more informed decision. I think Jtandy looking at ISO8601 would be very useful. 15:52:03 … I’ll look at what it takes to do the number parsing, and see if that’s something we want to go forward with. 15:52:32 ACTION: jenit to investigate what number parsing would look like if done right 15:52:32 Created ACTION-58 - Investigate what number parsing would look like if done right [on Jeni Tennison - due 2014-11-19]. 15:53:10 topic: https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/48 15:53:21 "Using JSON-LD for the metadata document " 15:53:51 jenit: this is just a copy-over of the issue as it was in the document. I think it’s completely resolvable as saying “yes, we are using JSON-LD”. 15:54:09 … The only question is if we should rename some of the JSON-LD keywords, subh as @id and @type, so they don’t stick out. 15:54:12 q+ 15:54:20 q+ 15:54:24 q+ 15:54:40 gkellogg: some of discussions have been to serve doc as json, provide context via a header 15:54:47 … aiming to look like JSON rather than JSON-LD 15:55:05 … makes some sense, aliasing those keywords 15:55:11 q? 15:55:15 ack gkellogg 15:55:17 q- 15:55:21 ack jtandy 15:55:36 jtandy: to clarify, … it is possible to have a json-ld that replaces @id with something else and it will all work 15:55:41 jtandy: I want to clarify that it’s possible to have JSON-LD that replaces @id with something else and it will work. 15:55:42 jenit: that's aliasing and it is fine 15:55:47 jenit: yes, that’s aliasing. 15:55:57 jtandy: we’ll always have a context? 15:56:35 jenit: we’ll publish one, and people point to a context. 15:56:53 drafting a proposal: "close 48: we agree our metadata files are JSON-LD, and we are taking various measures to minimise associated syntax burdens" 15:56:57 q? 15:57:22 [I have a hard finish in 2 mins due to another meeting.] 15:58:44 jenit: I propose we split the issue into two: how json-ld processors can recognize this, and the other is aliasing of keywords. 15:58:47 +1 15:58:51 +1 15:58:53 +1 15:58:54 +1 15:59:13 -gkellogg 15:59:15 -jtandy 15:59:15 Adjourned. 15:59:19 -bill-ingram 15:59:21 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:59:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-csvw-minutes.html danbri 15:59:21 -danbri 15:59:21 -JeniT 15:59:21 DATA_CSVWG()10:00AM has ended 15:59:21 Attendees were gkellogg, bill-ingram, danbri, jtandy, JeniT 15:59:28 probably some messup with topic vs subtopic to be fixed in minutes. 15:59:47 yeah, not sure how to edit those files but at least most of the right words are in the irc log 15:59:53 thanks gregg for scribing! 16:00:02 ACTION: jenit to close https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/48 and to open new issues on (a) JSON-LD processors recognising metadata documents as JSON-LD and (b) aliasing of JSON-LD keywords 16:00:02 Created ACTION-59 - Close https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/48 and to open new issues on (a) json-ld processors recognising metadata documents as json-ld and (b) aliasing of json-ld keywords [on Jeni Tennison - due 2014-11-19]. 16:00:15 rrsagent, please draft minutes 16:00:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-csvw-minutes.html JeniT 16:00:57 trackbot, meeting is closed 16:00:57 Sorry, danbri, I don't understand 'trackbot, meeting is closed'. Please refer to for help. 16:01:10 trackbot, end meeting 16:01:10 Zakim, list attendees 16:01:10 sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is 16:01:18 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:01:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-csvw-minutes.html trackbot 16:01:19 RRSAgent, bye 16:01:19 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-csvw-actions.rdf : 16:01:19 ACTION: jtandy to review ISO 8601 to determine if it supports 'locale' type strings for date-times [1] 16:01:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-csvw-irc#T15-48-19 16:01:19 ACTION: jenit to investigate what number parsing would look like if done right [2] 16:01:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-csvw-irc#T15-52-32 16:01:19 ACTION: jenit to close https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/48 and to open new issues on (a) JSON-LD processors recognising metadata documents as JSON-LD and (b) aliasing of JSON-LD keywords [3] 16:01:19 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/12-csvw-irc#T16-00-02