17:22:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
17:22:58 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/07-aria-apg-irc
17:23:05 <LJWatson> zakim, agenda?
17:23:05 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:23:06 <Zakim> 1. Taskforce objectives both near term and long term) [from jamesn]
17:23:06 <Zakim> 2. APG Open issues https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/6 [from jamesn]
17:23:06 <Zakim> 3. APG Open defects https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Practices&list_id=45642&product=ARIA&resolution=--- [from jamesn]
17:23:07 <Zakim> 4. be done [from jamesn]
17:23:57 <LJWatson> zakim, this will be 92473
17:23:57 <Zakim> ok, LJWatson; I see WAI_PF()12:30PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
17:24:15 <LJWatson> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
17:24:31 <LJWatson> Meeting: ARIA APG TF weekly meeting
17:24:42 <LJWatson> zakim, clear agenda
17:24:42 <Zakim> agenda cleared
17:24:57 <LJWatson> agenda+ Link design pattern
17:25:55 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:25:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/07-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
17:29:44 <jemma> jemma has joined #aria-apg
17:30:01 <Zakim> WAI_PF()12:30PM has now started
17:30:08 <Zakim> +Matt_King
17:30:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:32:24 <Zakim> + +1.217.244.aaaa
17:32:26 <mattking> mattking has joined #aria-apg
17:32:48 <Zakim> - +1.217.244.aaaa
17:33:47 <LJWatson> zakim, [IPcaller] is LJWatson
17:33:47 <Zakim> +LJWatson; got it
17:34:19 <Zakim> + +1.217.244.aabb
17:34:27 <LJWatson> zakim, +1.217.244.aa is Jemma
17:34:27 <Zakim> +Jemma; got it
17:36:54 <LJWatson> scribe: Léonie Watson
17:36:59 <LJWatson> scribenick LJWatson
17:37:04 <LJWatson> Chair: Matthew King
17:37:10 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:37:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/07-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
17:37:23 <LJWatson> topic: Planning workflow
17:37:40 <LJWatson> MK: We need somewhere to document our work plan and decisions taken etc.
17:37:59 <LJWatson> LW: The wiki us the usual place.
17:38:23 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
17:38:34 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
17:41:45 <LJWatson> JN: Could we keep it in one place in Git?
17:42:42 <Zakim> -Jemma
17:42:42 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria-apg
17:42:44 <LJWatson> MK: Let's ask on the editors call.
17:43:21 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
17:43:21 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
17:43:46 <LJWatson> LW: If docs weren't published, people will have to download the repo.
17:44:03 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes.
17:44:03 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes.', LJWatson.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:44:11 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:44:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/07-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
17:45:21 <Zakim> +Jemma
17:45:52 <LJWatson> JN: Where we make changes, perhaps we should leave editor's notes in the APG - so we can revisit and remove later.
17:46:10 <LJWatson> MK: Or file bugs in Bugzilla - and keep the doc clean.
17:48:47 <LJWatson> MK: There must be rationale behind the best practices we include, and we should document the thinking behind it.
17:49:10 <LJWatson> BG: Agree. Also info about supporting ATs.
17:49:44 <LJWatson> MK: We previously agreed to put info like that into the APG as notes.
17:49:51 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:49:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/07-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
17:51:17 <LJWatson> BG: An idea from TPAC... good to have tutorials on how to construct the design patterns.
17:52:01 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria-apg
17:52:08 <LJWatson> LW: That could go with the examples.
17:52:25 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:52:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/07-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
17:52:50 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
17:52:50 <Zakim> I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, LJWatson
17:52:56 <LJWatson> zakim, open item 1
17:52:56 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Link design pattern" taken up [from LJWatson]
17:53:05 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
17:53:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/07-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
17:53:05 <mattking> irc://irc.w3.org:6665/aria-apg
17:53:52 <mattking> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=runnamed&list_id=46979&namedcmd=APG%201.1%20-%20open%20bugs
17:54:29 <LJWatson> LW: Have added an examples folder to the repo and a link design pattern example.
17:55:14 <LJWatson> LW: Michael pulled the changes back into the master version.
17:56:09 <jemma> sorry. do I use w3c login to see this buglist?
17:56:21 <LJWatson> https://github.com/w3c/aria/blob/master/practices/aria-practices.html
17:56:31 <jemma> thanks
18:02:30 <jamesn> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html
18:05:23 <LJWatson> JN: Doc needs tidying up but we can sort that out later.
18:06:47 <LJWatson> Direct link for link pattern https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#link
18:10:46 <LJWatson> MK: Bug relating to tabindex.
18:10:54 <LJWatson> JN: Is that needed?
18:11:12 <LJWatson> LW: Legacy from when ARIA originally re-defined tabindex. Not needed now it's part of HTML5?
18:11:51 <LJWatson> JN: It's something we'd need to add to most patterns?
18:12:07 <LJWatson> MK: With more detail for complex widgets.
18:12:27 <LJWatson> JN: Do we need it for simple widgets though? Should be consistent whichever way we go though.
18:12:47 <LJWatson> MK: Two things - what happens to activate the link, other is focusing on the link.
18:12:58 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:12:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/07-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:13:22 <LJWatson> JN: Don't think we need to define what happens when the link is activated.
18:13:26 <LJWatson> BG: Agree.
18:13:51 <LJWatson> MK: We need to raise a bug against ARIA 1.1 then?
18:14:44 <LJWatson> MK: The spec says the author is responsible for handling functionality.
18:15:49 <LJWatson> BG: Think there is value in mentioning the author needs to provide functionality/handle focus.
18:16:42 <LJWatson> MK: If link is only for base languages without a native link, we might say this design pattern shouldn't be used if writing in HTML?
18:16:56 <LJWatson> JN: Don't agree.
18:17:19 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:17:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/07-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:17:36 <LJWatson> JN: Retro-fitting is one use case.
18:18:10 <LJWatson> MK: Have seen people use the APG, then add roles where they're not needed.
18:19:37 <LJWatson> MK: Will change bug to reflect this discussion.
18:20:17 <LJWatson> JN: Could just explain that whenever possible use a native element.
18:20:34 <LJWatson> BG: Agree.
18:22:02 <LJWatson> MK: We could add a standard cautionary note to indicate it's better to use native elements where possible.
18:22:37 <LJWatson> BG: Keep it simple.
18:22:38 <LJWatson> +1
18:26:04 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?alias=&assigned_to=mattking%40us.ibm.com&attach_text=&blocked=&bug_file_loc=http%3A%2F%2F&bug_severity=normal&bug_status=NEW&comment=&component=Practices&contenttypeentry=&contenttypemethod=autodetect&contenttypeselection=text%2Fplain&data=&dependson=&description=&form_name=enter_bug&keywords=&maketemplate=Remember%20values%20as%20bookmarkable%20template&op_sys=Windows%20NT&priority=P2&product=ARIA&qa_contact=
18:26:04 <jamesn> &rep_platform=PC&short_desc=&target_milestone=---&version=1.1
18:27:19 <jamesn> http://tinyurl.com/l7dthzh
18:34:20 <LJWatson> JN: Suggest we keep advice simple... "When using HTML use the native <a> element and do not use role="link"".
18:34:39 <LJWatson> JN: Can wordsmith later.
18:34:43 <mattking> Caution: If creating HTML, it is recommended that an anchor tag be used instead of the link role.
18:35:50 <mattking> Caution: If creating HTML, it is recommended that an anchor element <A> tag be used instead of role="link".
18:36:47 <LJWatson> JN: Do we need "Caution"?
18:36:56 <LJWatson> MK: Need to call it out.
18:37:10 <LJWatson> LW: Can clear it up with the rest of the formatting.
18:37:41 <LJWatson> BG: COuld use the wiki feature on Github. Will find a tutorial and post it.
18:37:50 <bgaraventa1979> http://code.tutsplus.com/articles/team-collaboration-with-github--net-29876
18:37:51 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:37:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/07-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:39:19 <LJWatson> JN: Should we revisit using Github issues instead of Bugzilla?
18:39:32 <LJWatson> MK: Let's stick with current decision for now.
18:40:28 <LJWatson> JN: Will create a practices page and link it from the ARIA wiki homepage on GH.
18:41:17 <jemma> ;-)
18:45:00 <LJWatson> MK: Four edits...
18:46:01 <LJWatson> MK: 1. Add cautionary note about using native element.
18:46:14 <LJWatson> MK: 2. Add note about author's handling focus.
18:46:23 <LJWatson> MK: 3. Add note about author's using tabindex.
18:46:40 <LJWatson> MK: 4. Remove shift 510 references.
18:47:44 <LJWatson> topic: Checkbox design pattern
18:47:52 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:47:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/07-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:48:35 <LJWatson> JN: Should we separate checkbox out?
18:48:53 <LJWatson> MK: One for tristate and one for dual state?
18:49:13 <LJWatson> MK: Dual state first, then could reference it from the tri-state pattern.
18:49:18 <LJWatson> BG: Makes sense.
18:49:38 <LJWatson> MK: Then add the note about native elements to the dual state, but not for the tri-state.
18:52:11 <LJWatson> MK: Suggest we resolve those two bugs before we spend much more time on this?
18:52:28 <LJWatson> LW: Agree.
18:52:43 <LJWatson> JN: Is it worth separating out?
18:53:13 <LJWatson> JN: COuld just change the note to say use native unless you need a tri-state/mixed selection.
18:53:36 <LJWatson> JN: There will be duplication.
18:53:52 <LJWatson> MK: Could refer back to the dual pattern from the tri-state.
18:54:02 <LJWatson> BG: Let's try simple approach first.
18:54:16 <LJWatson> MK: Do it for dual state then see where we're at.
18:54:39 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:54:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/07-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:55:47 <LJWatson> present: Matthew King, James Nurthen, Léonie Watson, Bryan Garaventa, Jemma
18:55:59 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:55:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/07-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:58:02 <LJWatson> MK: Seems like tabbing should be part of keyboard interaction.
18:58:14 <LJWatson> JN: It's specifying the property not the interaction.
18:59:04 <LJWatson> JN: Do we need a different section on focus management?
18:59:47 <LJWatson> MK: There is already a section in the doc... Keyboard and structural navigation.
19:00:42 <LJWatson> LW: We could do with a really simple statement in the doc - Author's need to a) handle focus and b) handle keyboard interaction.
19:01:00 <LJWatson> MK: There are different sorts of patterns.
19:01:54 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:01:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/07-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
19:01:59 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
19:01:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/07-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
19:02:03 <jamesn> zakim, please part
19:02:03 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Matt_King, +1.217.244.aaaa, LJWatson, +1.217.244.aabb, Jemma, Bryan_Garaventa, James_Nurthen
19:02:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
19:02:08 <jamesn> rrsasgent, make minutes
19:02:16 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:02:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/07-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
19:03:20 <LJWatson> zakim, please part
19:03:40 <LJWatson> rrsagent, please part
19:03:40 <RRSAgent> I see no action items