IRC log of tt on 2014-11-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:01:09 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/06-tt-irc
15:01:11 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:01:11 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #tt
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Zakim, this will be TTML
15:01:13 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start now
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Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
15:01:14 [trackbot]
Date: 06 November 2014
15:01:34 [Frans_EBU]
Frans_EBU has joined #tt
15:01:45 [nigel]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:45 [Zakim]
SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has not yet started, nigel
15:01:46 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Frans_EBU, Zakim, RRSAgent, nigel, jdsmith, pal, courtney, trackbot
15:02:35 [nigel]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:35 [Zakim]
SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has not yet started, nigel
15:02:36 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Frans_EBU, Zakim, RRSAgent, nigel, jdsmith, pal, courtney, trackbot
15:02:45 [nigel]
zakim, this is ttwg
15:02:45 [Zakim]
ok, nigel; that matches SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM
15:02:49 [nigel]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jdsmith, pal, [Apple], nigel, Frans
15:03:16 [nigel]
Present: jdsmith, pal, courtney, Frans, nigel
15:03:18 [nigel]
chair: nigel
15:03:26 [nigel]
zakim, [Apple] is courtney
15:03:26 [Zakim]
+courtney; got it
15:04:08 [nigel]
Regrets: glenn, andreas, mdolan, cyril
15:04:40 [nigel]
Topic: This meeting
15:04:44 [nigel]
scribeNick: nigel
15:07:16 [Zakim]
+Thierry
15:07:24 [nigel]
Present+ Thierry
15:07:30 [nigel]
Topic: IMSC 1 review comments
15:08:00 [nigel]
https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/34314/WD-ttml-imsc1-20140930/
15:08:39 [nigel]
pal: I've proposed a resolution on all the comments, so I can walk through them and point out the document edits
15:08:57 [nigel]
... LC-2983
15:09:14 [nigel]
... No actionable comments. Thanking DVB for input would be appropriate.
15:09:34 [nigel]
Action: pal Thank DVB for input re LC-2983
15:09:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-348 - Thank dvb for input re lc-2983 [on Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2014-11-13].
15:09:50 [nigel]
pal: LC-2982
15:10:04 [nigel]
... I've added Example 4 as a code example for Forced Content.
15:10:48 [pal]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/Guide2LCtracker/overview.html
15:11:59 [nigel]
pal: I propose moving LC-2982 to pending for review by the group in the next week, then moving to resolved prior to sending out.
15:12:21 [nigel]
tmichel: Yes, once we have the resolution from the WG then I or Nigel can send the response back to the commenter.
15:12:49 [nigel]
pal: In this case we could move directly to Resolved-yes, but maybe giving the group a week to resolve it and move to Pending in the meantime.
15:13:01 [nigel]
nigel: Yes please, move it to Pending.
15:13:04 [nigel]
pal: Doing that.
15:13:22 [nigel]
pal: LC-2975
15:13:55 [nigel]
pal: I thought I'd replaced all of 'subtitle document' with the TTML1 defined term 'Document Instance' - it turns out maybe not.
15:14:41 [nigel]
... I've added the defined term Document Instance too.
15:15:02 [nigel]
pal: I've found the two instances, fixing right now.
15:16:09 [nigel]
... done.
15:16:43 [nigel]
... That'll be corrected next time I commit to trunk.
15:16:50 [nigel]
nigel: I think that'll fix it.
15:16:55 [nigel]
pal: LC-2976
15:17:41 [nigel]
... I've revised section 5.1 to add "The method by which this association is made is left to each application."
15:17:49 [nigel]
group: seems happy with that.
15:17:53 [nigel]
pal: Moving that one to Pending.
15:18:19 [nigel]
pal: LC-2968 - we covered this at TPAC already and there's already a proposed resolution.
15:18:51 [nigel]
... I added an informative note on section 8.3 explaining how it can be done in TTML1 using multiple regions.
15:19:04 [nigel]
pal: LC-2973
15:19:32 [nigel]
pal: There were really two comments here. Firstly, trying to clarify what a conforming processor should do with foreign namespaces attributes and elements.
15:19:52 [nigel]
... Secondly that the specification did not forbid the introduction of new elements and attributes in the IMSC namespace outside W3C.
15:20:17 [nigel]
... In §6.3 I've added a paragraph to replicate TTML1 to state that the namespace is mutable and reserved by W3C for future expansion.
15:20:53 [nigel]
... I also added in §6.2 the same prose as in TTML1 to say that a document may contain elements and attributes that are neither
15:21:18 [nigel]
... specifically permitted nor forbidden by a profile
15:21:29 [nigel]
jdsmith: So the implication is you would tolerate extra attributes?
15:22:00 [nigel]
pal: That's right - the intent is to replicate what was in TTML1. Andreas's concern was that 'ignore' for a transformation
15:22:13 [nigel]
... processor isn't clear - does it mean 'remove' or 'keep and do nothing'.
15:22:51 [nigel]
nigel: It's possibly not clear what a processor should do if it encounters a non-IMSC element or attribute.
15:24:53 [nigel]
nigel: Perhaps the language from TTML1 §3.2.1 Generic Processor Performance should be brought in (3rd list item).
15:25:01 [nigel]
pal: That's already brought in by reference.
15:25:25 [nigel]
pal: I think Andreas's issue was the term 'ignore' which might be considered to force processors to drop such entities.
15:26:20 [nigel]
jdsmith: This seems subtle but complete when you consider the TTML1 references.
15:26:23 [nigel]
pal: Marking as pending.
15:26:29 [nigel]
nigel: Andreas has an opportunity to verify this.
15:26:36 [nigel]
pal: LC-2977 Forced Display.
15:27:01 [nigel]
... The first part of the comment is that not all combinations of values are described. I've added a sentence to the second
15:27:07 [nigel]
... paragraph to cover other combinations.
15:27:34 [nigel]
... The second part of the comment is about improving the note by pointing out it only applies to non-transparent background.
15:28:49 [nigel]
... My take on this is that the note doesn't only apply in that case. Unless we're absolutely certain then I'm concerned about
15:28:52 [nigel]
... making it too narrow.
15:30:32 [nigel]
nigel: I think possibly padding could apply, but as written the comment is accurate I believe. It's still reasonable to make
15:30:49 [nigel]
... no change given how specific that circumstance is, and to respond to the commenter that this is our decision.
15:31:14 [nigel]
pal: I've slightly changed the wording of the note in the editor's draft to make it a bit easier to read.
15:32:44 [nigel]
... The biggest edit is a reference back to TTML1 to describe the circumstances in which this applies.
15:35:29 [nigel]
nigel: We could respond that 'While technically the note may only apply when a non-transparent background is applied to a region the intent has a broader applicability, to warn authors...'
15:35:58 [nigel]
pal: I'm updating it now.
15:36:20 [nigel]
pal: Also marking as pending.
15:36:28 [nigel]
pal: LC-2978 altText
15:37:09 [nigel]
... I added a document convention section to reference the conventions used in TTML1 for specifying styling attributes and XML elements.
15:38:06 [nigel]
... That should satisfy the commenter.
15:38:33 [nigel]
nigel: There's a reader-friendliness question whether it's okay to refer to another document just for document conventions, but normatively this does address the comment.
15:38:59 [nigel]
pal: So much of this document is dependent on TTML1 that the reader needs to be aware of TTML1 anyway.
15:39:07 [nigel]
pal: Marking as pending.
15:39:23 [nigel]
pal: LC-2979
15:39:38 [Zakim]
-Thierry
15:39:55 [nigel]
... Constraints on the #timing feature. The text previously said "The same syntax of #clock-time or #offset-time should be used throughout the subtitle document."
15:40:07 [nigel]
... I read the comment from the commenter on what this means to use the same syntax.
15:40:42 [nigel]
... I tried to be more specific here in this revision by stating that: "A Document Instance should use either the offset-time or offset-time syntax for all time expressions used therein."
15:41:42 [nigel]
... Oh I see there's a typo here. This should read: "A Document Instance should use either the clock-time or offset-time syntax for all time expressions used therein."
15:42:26 [nigel]
... This is just to make it easier for instance documents to read.
15:43:15 [nigel]
nigel: I'm not sure how this addresses Andreas's question.
15:43:33 [nigel]
pal: They would all be examples of clock time syntax so they would be the same syntax.
15:44:52 [nigel]
... The revised text tries to be more specific.
15:45:43 [nigel]
nigel: As written this doesn't require that all time expressions must use the same syntax throughout the document.
15:45:45 [nigel]
... How about:
15:46:24 [nigel]
... "All time expressions within a Document Instance should use the same syntax, either clock-time or offset-time."
15:46:43 [nigel]
pal: Looks fine to me.
15:47:13 [nigel]
pal: I'm making the change and will make it Pending after committing.
15:47:38 [nigel]
pal: LC-2974 #length-cell
15:47:57 [nigel]
... #length-cell was forbidden but that conflicted with ebutts:linePadding which uses length-cell. So I've updated the
15:48:04 [nigel]
... constraint to make an exception for ebutts:linePadding.
15:48:30 [nigel]
pal: Marking as pending.
15:49:12 [nigel]
pal: LC-2980 default Region
15:49:51 [nigel]
... I've now made this a defined term pointing back to TTML1's definition.
15:50:00 [nigel]
pal: Marking as pending.
15:50:09 [nigel]
pal: LC-2981 Reference fonts
15:50:31 [nigel]
pal: This is text we hadn't touched for a while so it prompted me to go into this deeper. The intent was really not so much
15:50:49 [nigel]
... to mandate a processor behaviour but to ensure that the document is authored using those reference fonts when applicable.
15:51:03 [nigel]
... Of course a presentation processor can choose whether or not to use those reference fonts.
15:51:21 [nigel]
... I've pulled out Reference Fonts from the HRM - the HRM is now only about document constraints.
15:51:29 [nigel]
... I've moved Reference Fonts to the Text Profile sections.
15:52:20 [nigel]
... This reads as a requirement on the authored document.
15:53:18 [nigel]
nigel: This doesn't actually require that text doesn't overflow the region even when laid out using the reference font metrics.
15:53:50 [nigel]
pal: That's an authorial decision - if the author wants to overflow that choice is available.
15:54:16 [nigel]
... The next step if we want to be stronger is to make it a normative requirement on presentation processors.
15:54:18 [nigel]
... That's the comment.
15:54:23 [nigel]
nigel: I'd made the same misreading.
15:54:40 [nigel]
pal: It's not entirely clear in CFF-TT. An implementor reading this and implementing a presentation processor would be
15:54:57 [nigel]
... ill-advised not to use the metrics of the reference fonts because otherwise the document will not look like the author
15:55:01 [nigel]
... intended.
15:56:47 [nigel]
nigel: The problem is that any test written against this spec text would have nothing to check.
15:57:08 [nigel]
pal: If there's any doubt here then I'd rather make it a presentation processor requirement to make it crystal clear and adopt
15:57:18 [nigel]
... what the commenter suggested, and be prescriptive on processors.
15:58:09 [nigel]
nigel: I think we need a good review period on this since it could be viewed as a substantive change by some readers.
15:58:36 [nigel]
pal: I'll make the edit as suggested by the commenter and set it to pending, and we can discuss it next week.
15:59:07 [nigel]
pal: For all the other ones that are marked pending can we ask the group to review and we can mark any with no comments
15:59:10 [nigel]
... as resolved.
15:59:13 [nigel]
nigel: I think so.
15:59:20 [nigel]
s/so./so, yes.
15:59:50 [nigel]
Topic: Incoming Liaisons
16:00:06 [nigel]
nigel: We have an MPEG liaison and one from ITU-R Working Party 6B
16:00:12 [nigel]
http://www.itu.int/en/ITU-R/study-groups/rsg6/rwp6b/Pages/default.aspx
16:00:49 [nigel]
nigel: ITU has requested that IMSC be submitted before 10th November. Any objections to submitting it for information.
16:01:16 [nigel]
RESOLUTION: We will submit IMSC 1 to ITU-R Working Party 6B for information by 10th November.
16:01:32 [nigel]
Action: nigel submit IMSC 1 to ITU-R Working Party 6B by 10th November
16:01:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-349 - Submit imsc 1 to itu-r working party 6b by 10th november [on Nigel Megitt - due 2014-11-13].
16:01:52 [nigel]
pal: I can assist if need be.
16:03:31 [nigel]
Topic: Action Items
16:03:39 [nigel]
action-341?
16:03:39 [trackbot]
action-341 -- Nigel Megitt to Check with the mpeg folk if a wg note would be acceptable. -- due 2014-10-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:03:39 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/341
16:03:44 [nigel]
close action-341
16:03:44 [trackbot]
Closed action-341.
16:03:45 [Zakim]
-courtney
16:03:47 [Zakim]
-pal
16:03:49 [nigel]
action-342?
16:03:49 [trackbot]
action-342 -- Nigel Megitt to Add change proposals to the tpac agenda for tuesday -- due 2014-10-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:03:49 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/342
16:03:55 [nigel]
close action-342
16:03:55 [trackbot]
Closed action-342.
16:04:04 [nigel]
Topic: Issues raised
16:04:07 [nigel]
issue-351?
16:04:07 [trackbot]
issue-351 -- Update IANA registration for TTML2 -- raised
16:04:07 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/351
16:04:10 [nigel]
reopen issue-351
16:04:10 [trackbot]
Re-opened issue-351.
16:04:15 [nigel]
issue-352?
16:04:16 [trackbot]
issue-352 -- Add Media Registration Annex -- raised
16:04:16 [Zakim]
-Frans
16:04:16 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/352
16:04:18 [Zakim]
-jdsmith
16:04:21 [nigel]
reopen issue-352
16:04:21 [trackbot]
Re-opened issue-352.
16:04:25 [nigel]
issue-353?
16:04:25 [trackbot]
issue-353 -- Normatively define short code processorProfiles parameter -- raised
16:04:25 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/353
16:04:28 [nigel]
reopen issue-353
16:04:29 [trackbot]
Re-opened issue-353.
16:04:42 [nigel]
Topic: Future meetings
16:05:02 [nigel]
nigel: I will make the November meetings all 1 hour unless anyone tells me they think we need longer (where 'anyone' includes me!)
16:05:15 [nigel]
nigel: thank you everyone, let's meet in a week.
16:05:21 [nigel]
... [adjourns meeting]
16:05:24 [nigel]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:05:27 [nigel]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:05:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/06-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:05:33 [Zakim]
-nigel
16:05:34 [Zakim]
SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has ended
16:05:34 [Zakim]
Attendees were jdsmith, pal, nigel, Frans, courtney, Thierry
16:07:13 [nigel]
s/... That'll be/pal: That'll be
16:07:59 [nigel]
s/do nothing'./do nothing'?
16:10:36 [nigel]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:10:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/06-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:12:54 [nigel]
ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:12:55 [nigel]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:12:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/06-tt-minutes.html nigel
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