IRC log of mobile-a11y on 2014-11-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:42:19 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
15:42:19 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/06-mobile-a11y-irc
15:42:21 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:42:21 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
15:42:23 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
15:42:23 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_MATF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
15:42:24 [trackbot]
Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:42:24 [trackbot]
Date: 06 November 2014
15:42:48 [KimPatch]
chair: Kimberly_Patch
15:43:21 [KimPatch]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2014Nov/0000.html
15:45:54 [KimPatch]
Agenda+ Q&A / Status of Technique Assignments
15:45:56 [KimPatch]
Agenda+ Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20141103_survey/
15:45:57 [KimPatch]
Agenda+ Reframing the existing WCAG 2.0 techniques
15:45:59 [KimPatch]
Agenda+ Technique Assignments
15:53:30 [Joshue]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:53:30 [Zakim]
WAI_MATF()11:00AM has not yet started, Joshue
15:53:31 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, KimPatch, Joshue, MichaelC, trackbot
15:53:35 [Zakim]
WAI_MATF()11:00AM has now started
15:53:42 [Zakim]
+Alan_Smith
15:54:05 [Joshue]
zakim, code?
15:54:05 [Zakim]
the conference code is 6283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Joshue
15:54:30 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:54:37 [Joshue]
zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
15:54:37 [Zakim]
+Joshue; got it
15:55:55 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
15:59:42 [kw]
kw has joined #mobile-a11y
15:59:44 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y
16:00:18 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
16:00:31 [Zakim]
+ +1.978.760.aaaa
16:00:32 [Zakim]
+AWK
16:00:38 [jeanne]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:00:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Alan_Smith, Joshue, Kim_Patch, Jeanne, +1.978.760.aaaa, AWK
16:00:52 [AWK]
AWK has joined #mobile-a11y
16:01:07 [Zakim]
+Detlev
16:01:07 [kw]
zakim, aaaa is me
16:01:07 [Zakim]
+kw; got it
16:01:30 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
16:01:30 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
16:01:45 [AWK]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Alan_Smith, Joshue (muted), Kim_Patch, Jeanne, kw, AWK, Detlev
16:02:14 [jeanne]
scribenick: jeanne
16:02:17 [Detlev]
Detlev has joined #mobile-a11y
16:02:35 [jeanne]
zakim, take up item 1
16:02:35 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Q&A / Status of Technique Assignments" taken up [from KimPatch]
16:03:34 [jeanne]
Detlev: I signed up for 2 that I know what they are about. There are others where I don't know.
16:03:46 [Zakim]
-Alan_Smith
16:03:52 [KimPatch]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments
16:05:02 [jeanne]
JS: Can Detlev point out the ones that are unclear?
16:05:15 [Brent]
Brent has joined #mobile-a11y
16:05:33 [jeanne]
detlev: M1: What does this technique aim at beyond the general best practices
16:05:57 [jeanne]
KW: Javascript commands for hover and surface touch. The Technique was to discuss that specifically.
16:06:03 [Mike]
Mike has joined #mobile-a11y
16:06:14 [jeanne]
Detlev: So this would be separate from using CSS to highlight?
16:06:17 [Zakim]
+Brent
16:06:38 [Jan]
Jan has joined #mobile-a11y
16:06:46 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.425.aabb
16:06:53 [jeanne]
KW: That is something we need more clarity from WCAG about what should be separate techniques. That can be incorportated into another technique, but should it be separate?
16:07:15 [jeanne]
... same thing with Reading Order, Touch and Keyboard Access. We need more clarity.
16:07:27 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:07:38 [Jan_]
Jan_ has joined #mobile-a11y
16:07:52 [Jan_]
zakim, who's here?
16:07:52 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Joshue (muted), Kim_Patch, Jeanne, kw, AWK, Detlev, Brent, +1.408.425.aabb, [IPcaller]
16:07:55 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Jan_, Jan, Mike, Brent, Detlev, AWK, jeanne, kw, Zakim, RRSAgent, KimPatch, Joshue, MichaelC, trackbot
16:08:09 [Jan_]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
16:08:09 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
16:08:15 [Joshue]
zakim, agenda?
16:08:15 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
16:08:16 [Zakim]
1. Q&A / Status of Technique Assignments [from KimPatch]
16:08:16 [Zakim]
2. Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20141103_survey/ [from KimPatch]
16:08:16 [Zakim]
3. Reframing the existing WCAG 2.0 techniques [from KimPatch]
16:08:16 [Zakim]
4. Technique Assignments [from KimPatch]
16:09:29 [jeanne]
KW: The deadline is rapidly approaching -- 18 Nov. We want to have the most important on the schedule for next week.
16:09:48 [jeanne]
KP: Who has techniques that will be ready for next week.
16:09:59 [jeanne]
Detlev: M4 is done today. there is a draft to discuss
16:11:08 [jeanne]
KP: Does anyone want to sign up for anything else?
16:11:50 [jeanne]
KW: If you are struggling or partially done, even if you need some writing help or technical help, let us know so we can draw on the strength of the rest of the group before the deadline.
16:12:09 [jeanne]
zakim, take up item 3
16:12:09 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Reframing the existing WCAG 2.0 techniques" taken up [from KimPatch]
16:13:09 [jeanne]
KP: We have sorted out the existing WCAG techniques into buckets: existing that don't apply, existing that apply without changes, existing that need changes.
16:13:12 [jon_avila]
jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y
16:13:22 [KimPatch]
tf/wiki/Subset_of_WCAG_2.0_Techniques_Applicable_to_Mobile_without_Changes_that_need_language_update
16:13:30 [Zakim]
+jon_avila
16:13:40 [KimPatch]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Subset_of_WCAG_2.0_Techniques_Applicable_to_Mobile_without_Changes_that_need_language_update
16:13:56 [jeanne]
KP: Recently, I have been reviewing Techniques that could be improved with subtle changes
16:15:04 [jeanne]
... After more discussion in the group, I went through and made suggestions to the first 100 Techniques where a few subtle changes are needed. E.g., if the example has "laptop" that implies it doesn't apply to mobile.
16:16:00 [jeanne]
[Kim reviews some of the changes from the link above]
16:16:07 [AWK]
How short is short enough for G14?
16:16:12 [Joshue]
+q to say this looks good.
16:16:26 [jeanne]
Detlev: also about sign language video
16:16:39 [Joshue]
ack me
16:16:40 [Zakim]
Joshue, you wanted to say this looks good.
16:17:28 [jeanne]
JP: Thanks to all the TF for a lot of work. This is what the WCAG WG wanted to update the Techniques
16:17:37 [Jan]
+q to agree with the changes to massage language to remove implicit assumption of desktop/laptop devices
16:17:44 [Jan]
-q
16:18:13 [jeanne]
KW: The ones missing from here, are the ones that we have identified that need more work. THey are on a different list. I ended at G111. there is more to do.
16:18:35 [jeanne]
s/ KW: The ones / KP: The ones
16:18:57 [jeanne]
KP: even some of the changes are where laptop is implied.
16:19:13 [jeanne]
JO: How about "activating" a link?
16:19:23 [jeanne]
KP: I think UAWG found a problem with that.
16:19:36 [jeanne]
Detlev: I think activating would cover all kinds of input.
16:19:55 [Joshue]
Whatever an appropriate term.
16:20:45 [jeanne]
JO: whatever the appropriate term, we can use that.
16:21:01 [jeanne]
KP: Whatever the solution was with UAWG, I would like to harmonize with that.
16:21:04 [AWK]
q+
16:21:42 [jeanne]
JO: what are the next steps? I have an action to do some of what you have done? I would take a chunk of these?
16:22:10 [jeanne]
KP: Is this good enough? If someone in TF finishes this and sends it to WCAG, is it good enough?
16:22:18 [jeanne]
JO: Yes, this would be great.
16:22:29 [jeanne]
KP: Then WCAG could do the changes.
16:22:44 [jeanne]
KP: I think we will see patterns.
16:22:57 [jeanne]
JO: When will you be finished?
16:23:05 [jeanne]
q+
16:23:19 [jeanne]
KP: Probably a few weeks.
16:24:45 [jeanne]
AWK: A number of these seem easy, G14 would say: "Use this text instead". To make it even easier for the TF, WCAG, and the people doing the edits, I would ask for a pull request.
16:25:17 [jeanne]
...G110 are not going to debate some of these. G14, for example, I don't think I would send it by the WCAG WG.
16:25:31 [jeanne]
KP: The wiki is here, and you can make that decision.
16:25:45 [jeanne]
AWK: The grammar corrections are good to have.
16:25:56 [Detlev]
q+
16:26:04 [jeanne]
AT the F2F we were discussing 3 threads and this is one of the threads.
16:26:50 [jeanne]
KP: The M techniques are having more trouble in focusing the direction.
16:27:17 [jeanne]
... the Techniques that the TF is changing also need more direction from WCAG.
16:27:35 [Joshue]
+q
16:27:39 [jeanne]
KW: What do we put into an existing Technique?
16:27:46 [AWK]
ack me
16:27:57 [jeanne]
ack Josh
16:28:33 [jeanne]
JO: We were having a bigger discussion in the planning call that are coming out about our approaches: how we catagorize and how we create Techniques.
16:28:48 [Zakim]
+Alan_Smith
16:28:50 [jeanne]
... we may need to separate more techniques by the technology more
16:29:25 [jeanne]
... I'm hoping that WCAG can thrash this out. WCAG is finding our way, identifying gaps, review approaches.
16:29:44 [jeanne]
... tie in more with IndieUI, UAWG in a more cohesive manner.
16:30:09 [jeanne]
... we don't want to upend MATF work, but we are finding our way.
16:30:40 [jeanne]
KW: I don't know where we are going, and it is stalling the work here. Everytime I am writing a Technique, I am blocked from completing it.
16:30:55 [jeanne]
... otherwise the work we are doing in the TF is being redone.
16:31:01 [Alan_Smith]
Alan_Smith has joined #mobile-a11y
16:31:07 [Alan_Smith]
Alan called back in and on IRC
16:31:39 [jeanne]
JO: We are aware that it is a problem. We just don't want to create something that has a short shelflife.
16:32:10 [jeanne]
KW: We need to figure out where things are going to go and how they will be organized, so that we can figure how they will go forward.
16:32:13 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
16:32:13 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
16:32:53 [Joshue]
ack me
16:33:27 [jeanne]
JS: I see the next two weeks for making the Nov 18 deadline
16:33:46 [jeanne]
JO: I think the low hanging fruit is the most important. The subtle changes are easier to do.
16:35:09 [kw]
q+
16:35:16 [jeanne]
AWK: We will take whatever work we can have done. It is all useful. It's probably ok since we are amassing a body of knowledge -- a large body of work for mobile. We will probably have a few new techniques, a few minor techniques, some new medium techniques. Is that ok to have a scattered collection of things?
16:35:20 [jeanne]
ack jean
16:35:24 [jeanne]
ack det
16:35:51 [jeanne]
Detlev: I don't think there is a plan to have a separate section of WCAG for Mobile Techniques?
16:36:22 [jeanne]
... Has that been determined? Some may be questionable, whether they are merged with existing Techniques?
16:37:33 [jeanne]
JO: At the moment, there is a concern with labeling them as mobile techniques, when they may be applicable to other techniques. I see us rolling them into the canon of techniques, and they would be applicable to mobile.
16:37:53 [jeanne]
ack kw
16:37:57 [AWK]
q+
16:38:33 [Joshue]
s/other techniques/other platforms and technologies
16:39:12 [jeanne]
KW: As far as what is done by the 18th, there is very little that we will be able to push out. Any time we can get more Techniques out there is useful. We may have to wait for the following release to say that we have substantial work for mobile. The wiki is open to everyone so people can see what is going on.
16:39:30 [jeanne]
... especially since there is so much that is under discussion.
16:39:33 [kw]
q-
16:39:53 [jeanne]
KP: I like what you said about "not explicitly mobile" because everything is rather mixing.
16:40:29 [AWK]
q-
16:41:24 [jeanne]
JR: There is not a hard-and-fast division between desktop and mobile. It's a continuum. I am ok with having it in one group, but there are small screen and devices with sensors that should be called out.
16:41:29 [jon_avila]
Agreed that screen size and touch events are more important than mobile specific
16:41:30 [jon_avila]
+1
16:41:47 [Joshue]
zakim, queue?
16:41:48 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
16:41:52 [Joshue]
+q
16:41:53 [kw]
+1
16:42:10 [jeanne]
MS: We have skipped over the interaction model. touch an gesture and speech. We should be looking at "what is the interaction model for that thing?"
16:42:11 [Joshue]
ack me
16:42:22 [jeanne]
... and not calling it out as mobile or desktop.
16:42:41 [jeanne]
JO: It's still an early discussion and we haven't fleshed it out.
16:42:47 [jon_avila]
Touch criteria could apply to kiosk even though it isn't mobile.
16:42:57 [jeanne]
... on Monday we will be discussing it in more detail.
16:43:40 [Joshue]
-q
16:44:05 [Detlev]
q+
16:44:19 [jeanne]
JA: How we communicate that to the public that are expecting Mobile TEchnques. We need to share that thought process with the community.
16:44:29 [Brent]
q+
16:44:39 [Zakim]
-Jan
16:44:51 [jon_avila]
Another category is bandwidth
16:45:15 [kw]
q+
16:45:34 [jeanne]
Detlev: WCAG is a tremendous body of information and it can be off-putting. we need to have a way to filter it or focus it for specific design needs
16:45:45 [jeanne]
ack Det
16:45:49 [jeanne]
ack Brent
16:46:19 [Zakim]
-Joshue
16:46:57 [jeanne]
Brent: We don't what will be coming up after mobile, so having something more generic. Interaction model is a good way to go. A variety of apps (coming from a deaf perspective). Things are more creative today. How you design with Flash, how you interact with devices, including interaction with devices that are coming up.
16:47:07 [jeanne]
... we have to make sure that things are applicable.
16:47:33 [jeanne]
KP: Actionserver is software that allows you to control your desktop with your mobile device.
16:47:58 [jeanne]
... there are keyboards that can connect to any device. It puts the keyboard everywhere and the touchscreen everywhere.
16:49:03 [jeanne]
AWK: It's related to the Second Screen question -- connecting a device that has some reason or ocnvenience to use rather than the original screen.
16:49:08 [jeanne]
ack KW
16:49:34 [Mike]
q+
16:50:28 [jeanne]
KW: We are talking about structuring about interaction, but we have discussed this with UAWG. When people are looking at it from a device approach. But there is also an approach that is inclusive of specific disabilities, such as cognitive, or screenreader. We need to keep in mind the end-user.
16:51:26 [jon_avila]
+1 to Mike
16:51:35 [jeanne]
MS: These are really good points. I appreciate the comment how we present this to the community and how we organize it and present it. We discussed applying tags to the Techniques, that will allow people to filter in multiple ways.
16:52:03 [AWK]
Re: Tagging, as mentioned by Mike - agree, this was what we discussed at WCAG F2F on Sunday and generally liked
16:52:04 [Detlev]
+1
16:52:05 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:52:15 [Brent]
+1
16:52:51 [Jan]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
16:52:51 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
16:53:31 [Jan]
+q to say we should have a WCAG-mobile note of some kind
16:53:42 [jeanne]
Alan: it sounds like the focus of the next release is to include mobile in WCAG as an accessible device for accessibility. Many folks see that mobile is not appliable to the WCAG guidelines. We need a clear definition that mobile will be applicable.
16:54:12 [jon_avila]
Would already apply to mobile web. Can be applied to native mobile apps.
16:54:26 [jeanne]
... Just because we don't have all the Techniques written, we need the explicit statement that WCAG 2.0 apply to mobile. Industry is looking for it.
16:54:37 [jeanne]
... It needs to be clearly stated.
16:54:41 [jeanne]
+1 to Alan
16:55:38 [jeanne]
JR: The communication side is very important. We need a note. Repeat some of the comments from this call. The example of touch screen kiosk is important. People want standards for kiosks.
16:55:59 [jeanne]
... but I can see people asking "where are the Techniques for my language"
16:56:21 [jeanne]
Alan: How do we go about Techniquing everything? Maybe all you can say is that it is in the works.
16:56:57 [jeanne]
KW: I think we will be figuring it out, and we will have more information next week. Everyone's points are very good and need to be considered for moving forward.
16:57:19 [jeanne]
agenda?
16:57:39 [Zakim]
-AWK
16:57:40 [jeanne]
zakim, close item 3
16:57:40 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, jeanne
16:57:40 [Zakim]
-Alan_Smith
16:57:42 [Zakim]
-Jan
16:57:42 [Zakim]
-jon_avila
16:57:43 [Zakim]
- +1.408.425.aabb
16:57:45 [Zakim]
-Brent
16:57:45 [Zakim]
-Detlev
16:57:46 [Zakim]
-kw
16:57:46 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
16:57:49 [jeanne]
q?
16:57:54 [jeanne]
ack Mike
16:57:57 [jeanne]
ack Jan
16:57:57 [Zakim]
Jan, you wanted to say we should have a WCAG-mobile note of some kind
16:58:10 [jeanne]
zakim, close item 3
16:58:10 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Reframing the existing WCAG 2.0 techniques, closed
16:58:11 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:58:11 [Zakim]
1. Q&A / Status of Technique Assignments [from KimPatch]
16:58:22 [jeanne]
zakim, close item 1
16:58:22 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Q&A / Status of Technique Assignments, closed
16:58:23 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:58:23 [Zakim]
2. Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20141103_survey/ [from KimPatch]
16:58:45 [jeanne]
zakim, take up item 2
16:58:45 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20141103_survey/" taken up [from KimPatch]
16:58:57 [jeanne]
KP: Everyone, please answer the survey for next week.
16:59:03 [jeanne]
zakim, close item 2
16:59:03 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20141103_survey/, closed
16:59:05 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:59:05 [Zakim]
4. Technique Assignments [from KimPatch]
16:59:24 [jeanne]
rragent, make minutes
16:59:28 [jeanne]
zakim, drop item 4
16:59:28 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Technique Assignments, dropped
16:59:42 [jeanne]
s/rragent, make minutes//
16:59:48 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:59:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/06-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne
17:00:24 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:03:46 [jeanne]
present+ Andrew(AWK), Brent, Jan, Jeanne, Jon_Avila, Kim, KathyW, MikeS
17:04:02 [jeanne]
zakim, bye
17:04:02 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Alan_Smith, Joshue, Kim_Patch, Jeanne, +1.978.760.aaaa, AWK, Detlev, kw, Brent, +1.408.425.aabb, Jan, jon_avila
17:04:02 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #mobile-a11y
17:05:07 [jeanne]
present: Andrew(AWK), AlanS, Brent, Detlev, Jan, Jeanne, Jon_Avila, Joshue, Kim, KathyW, MikeS
17:34:19 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:34:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/06-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne
18:03:30 [Jan]
Jan has left #mobile-a11y