14:58:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
14:58:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/05-shapes-irc
14:58:42 <pfps> zakim, this is shapes
14:58:42 <Zakim> ok, pfps; that matches DATA_RDFWG()10:00AM
14:58:44 <hknublau> hknublau has joined #shapes
14:58:55 <pfps> zakim, who is here?
14:58:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, +1.510.435.aaaa
14:58:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see hknublau, RRSAgent, Zakim, david, pfps, kcoyle, deiu, ralphtq, Arnaud, SteveS, betehess, sandro, rhiaro_, ericP, trackbot
14:59:40 <kcoyle> zakim, aaaa is kcoyle
14:59:40 <Zakim> +kcoyle; got it
15:00:02 <Arnaud> trackbot, start meeting
15:00:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:00:06 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
15:00:06 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:00:07 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
15:00:07 <trackbot> Date: 05 November 2014
15:00:42 <Zakim> +Arnaud
15:00:50 <Nick> Nick has joined #shapes
15:00:53 <Zakim> +DavidM
15:00:59 <Arnaud> zakim, this is SHAPES
15:00:59 <Zakim> Arnaud, this was already DATA_RDFWG()10:00AM
15:01:00 <Zakim> ok, Arnaud; that matches DATA_RDFWG()10:00AM
15:01:08 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:01:25 <Anamitra> Anamitra has joined #Shapes
15:01:25 <Zakim> + +1.949.830.aabb
15:01:28 <hknublau> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:01:28 <Zakim> +hknublau; got it
15:01:38 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:01:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, kcoyle, Arnaud, DavidM, hknublau, +1.949.830.aabb
15:01:58 <Arnaud> zakim, aabb is Nick
15:01:58 <Zakim> +Nick; got it
15:02:09 <Zakim> +Arthur_Ryman
15:02:13 <Zakim> -kcoyle
15:02:28 <kcoyle> oops. back in a moment
15:03:07 <Zakim> +kcoyle
15:03:32 <Zakim> +ericP
15:03:38 <Zakim> +Anamitra
15:03:41 <deiu> deiu has left #shapes
15:03:58 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:03:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Arnaud, DavidM, hknublau, Nick, Arthur_Ryman, kcoyle, ericP, Anamitra
15:04:28 <arthur> arthur has joined #shapes
15:04:33 <Zakim> +??P39
15:04:57 <SimonSteyskal> SimonSteyskal has joined #shapes
15:05:12 <ralphtq> Same for me - 617-761-6200 is dead
15:05:30 <Arnaud> scribe: Anamitra
15:05:32 <Arnaud> chair: Arnaud
15:05:34 <ralphtq> Is this the right number? Is there another?
15:05:50 <Arnaud> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2014.11.05
15:05:51 <SteveS> ralphtq, that is the number I used and always use
15:06:16 <Anamitra> test
15:06:18 <hknublau> I used 1.617.761.6200
15:06:18 <Arnaud> all I can suggest is to keep trying
15:06:31 <SimonSteyskal>  sip:zakim@voip.w3.org
15:06:32 <ralphtq> 4th attempt
15:06:33 <SimonSteyskal> works fine
15:06:50 <kcoyle> ralphtq: can you use SIP? zakim@voip.w3.org
15:07:28 <ericP> ralphtq, does it ring and ring, or is there some other error signal?
15:07:40 <Zakim> + +1.919.306.aacc
15:07:49 <SteveS> zakim, aacc is me
15:07:50 <Zakim> +SteveS; got it
15:07:55 <SimonSteyskal> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:07:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Arnaud, DavidM, hknublau, Nick, Arthur_Ryman, kcoyle, ericP, Anamitra, ??P39, SteveS
15:08:09 <SimonSteyskal> zakim, ??P39 is me
15:08:09 <Zakim> +SimonSteyskal; got it
15:09:15 <kcoyle> and you can't start the session number too early in the message
<Anamitra> Topic: Admin
15:09:31 <Anamitra> Arnaud: minutes of last meeting
15:10:05 <Anamitra> .... made request to get IRC logs to regenerate minutes
15:10:19 <Anamitra> ....pfpc wanted to do some cleanup
15:10:34 <pfps> I was just pointing out that the minutes are in a rough state, and could use some cleanup
15:10:47 <Anamitra> .... we should approved/review mins from prev meetings
15:11:09 <pfps> If we had common scribe, then I would volunteer to fix up the minutes
15:11:15 <Anamitra> ....if we made resolutions - its going to be tentative till the next meet
15:11:40 <david_> david_ has joined #shapes
15:11:54 <pfps> maybe if we bug the system team with requests concerning our minutes they will see the light
15:11:57 <Anamitra> .... will send email regerding the modifications needed
15:12:17 <Anamitra> ....next meeting Nov 12th - same time 10 AM Eastern
<Anamitra> Topic: Tracking of actions and issues
15:13:29 <Anamitra> Arnaud: setup issue with the tracker
15:13:49 <Anamitra> .... setup issue with ACL for tracker
15:14:18 <Anamitra> .... agenda has links - tracker lets us manage issues and actions
15:14:49 <pfps> The tracker is in a very weird state - the links to actions and issues work (maybe) but not the summary page
15:14:53 <Anamitra> .... if any action is completed - we will mark it as pending review
15:15:32 <Anamitra> .... for issues - define deliverables, can raise issues against any of the products
15:16:04 <Anamitra> ....issues can be raised at any time - WG discusses that - if WG agrees - we open the issue
15:16:20 <Anamitra> ....review and close it
15:16:46 <Anamitra> .... IRC track bot helps us modify info in tracker
15:17:03 <Anamitra> .... issues has # - issue-dddd
15:18:05 <Anamitra> summary page requires access control - maybe issue with the tracker
15:18:38 <Anamitra> ..... we dont have any pending issues/actions yet
15:20:05 <Anamitra> topic: TPAC - 2 days
15:20:57 <Anamitra> day 1 - discuss use case and requirements - we got a database of Use case and req from doublin-core - kcoyle from dc
15:21:19 <Anamitra> ...Arthur: was the content from that database reviewed?
15:21:43 <Anamitra> Arnaud: ericP did review and sort and organised it to a grp of requirements
15:21:59 <kcoyle> http://www.w3.org/2014/10/rdfvalreqs/ - eric's review
15:22:08 <Anamitra> Arnaud: we discussed requirements
15:22:22 <Anamitra> .... helped understand what peoples need are
15:22:36 <Anamitra> ...used piratepad to catch the user stories
15:23:29 <Anamitra> .... we categorized things - people have different needs/requeirements
15:23:48 <Anamitra> 2nd day (TPAC) - we presented 4 major technologies
15:23:49 <ralphtq> Have no audio right now but would like to stress the need for requirements to technology mapping and decision criteria as the next steps
15:24:08 <Anamitra> ....pfps - ICV
15:24:16 <Anamitra> ....Holger - SPIN
15:24:23 <Anamitra> ....Arthur: Shapes
15:24:31 <Anamitra> .... ericP: SHeX
15:24:57 <Anamitra> ...trying to understand what the technology does -- limitations
15:25:24 <Anamitra> ... what problems they solve - came out there were lot more common ground between them
15:25:56 <Anamitra> .. goal being to increasing general understading
15:25:57 <Nick> q+
15:26:35 <Anamitra> ericP: consensus on what atomic validation unit meant - shapes/icv/shex/spin
15:26:43 <Arnaud> ack Nick
15:26:56 <Anamitra> we came up with equivalent for each one of these technologies
15:27:09 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:27:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Arnaud, DavidM, hknublau, Nick, Arthur_Ryman, kcoyle, ericP, Anamitra, SimonSteyskal, SteveS
15:27:18 <Anamitra> Nick: scope is not yet clear
15:27:34 <Anamitra> Nick: for example ...when a constraint gets applied
15:28:02 <pfps> it is also not completely clear for some proposals exactly what part of the graph they check
15:28:19 <Anamitra> .... other proposals operate on type where shape operates on the individual instance of the graph
15:28:46 <Anamitra> Arnaud: we did start accepting the dc reqs and started adding some of our own
15:29:11 <Anamitra> Arnaud: DC input is for us to consider - no obligation in any way
15:29:40 <Anamitra> Arnaud: browse the IRC logs - search for resolved - you will find what those are
15:29:56 <Anamitra> Arthur: are we going to produce a use case doc?
15:30:00 <Anamitra> Arnaud: yes
<Anamitra> Topic: User stories
15:30:47 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/User_Stories
15:30:48 <Anamitra> Arnaud: user stories in pirate pad - then it was moved to a wiki
15:31:31 <pfps> The charter - http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/charter - states that the WG shall produce a non-rec tract deliverable concerning use cases and requirements
15:32:16 <hknublau> +q
15:32:23 <Anamitra> Arnaud: plan in the meeting - we will have ongoing editing period - everyone in the grp will be welcome to add or edit the stories
15:32:38 <Anamitra> ... to futher develop the stories
15:32:47 <Anamitra> ... at some point we freeze that
15:32:55 <SimonSteyskal> so should we extend the stories first and then work at -> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Use_Cases ?
15:33:00 <Anamitra> .... it becomes material for user case docs that we publish
15:33:27 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
15:33:29 <Anamitra> ... better to keep one document - Holger thinks its too big/impractical
15:33:56 <Anamitra> Holger: write down the stories for rational decision criteria
15:34:12 <Anamitra> ... annotate them with specific solution so that we can compare
15:34:12 <pfps> It is possible to have the best of some worlds by starting out with short bits and making the bits be pointers to other pages if and when the bits become too big
15:34:28 <kcoyle> q+
15:34:29 <Anamitra> ... specific examples in individual pages
15:35:01 <Anamitra> .... allows us to judge whether the technologies are addressing the use cases
15:35:08 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
15:35:21 <arthur> q+
15:35:30 <Anamitra> kcoyle: a brief summary in a single page
15:36:01 <Arnaud> ack arthur
15:36:21 <Anamitra> ... +1 to Holgers idea as long as there is a summary/entry page with abstract
15:37:05 <Anamitra> Arnaud: whats the difference between user stories and use cases - Holgers Q - any answers for that?
15:37:30 <arthur> q+
15:37:35 <Arnaud> ack arthur
15:38:15 <Anamitra> Arthur: user story - a very atomic unit - widely used in dev .. something that can be implemented in an iteration
15:38:48 <Anamitra> ....use case: is a bigger thing - user stories are more atomic/contained
15:38:53 <ericP> q+ to say that http://www.w3.org/2014/10/rdfvalreqs/?+Gsmall is backed by a database http://www.w3.org/2014/10/rdfvalreqs/reqs.json
15:38:55 <Zakim> + +1.781.789.aadd
15:39:21 <ericP> Zakim, aadd is ralphtq
15:39:21 <Zakim> +ralphtq; got it
15:40:00 <Arnaud> ack ericP
15:40:00 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that http://www.w3.org/2014/10/rdfvalreqs/?+Gsmall is backed by a database http://www.w3.org/2014/10/rdfvalreqs/reqs.json
15:40:02 <ralphtq> q+
15:40:45 <Anamitra> ericP: requirements database in json - anybody can figure out how to make it a raw file which is editable - so that we can move that to the wiki
15:41:29 <Arnaud> ack ralphtq
15:42:21 <kcoyle> this is what the dc drupal database does
15:42:22 <Anamitra> ralphtq: its busy work to keep that in sync by editing json
15:42:42 <arthur> q+
15:43:04 <Arnaud> ack arthur
15:44:17 <Anamitra> ralphtq: user stories are really describing pain points
15:45:42 <Anamitra> ericP: grepped the dc database - and created the json file - added some attributes / requirements
15:46:24 <Anamitra> ericP: have interface to browse them - is it sufficient?
15:47:10 <Anamitra> kcoyle: there no reason to be not able to edit the database
15:47:27 <kcoyle> http://lelystad.informatik.uni-mannheim.de/rdf-validation/
15:48:13 <Anamitra> Arnaud: rather develop our own set with pointers to dc database
15:48:56 <Anamitra> kcoyle: might be a lighter wt solution that drupal
15:49:36 <Anamitra> Arnaud: we have the dc db, modified version in json from ericP, user stories from WG, and use cases from Holger
15:49:52 <ralphtq> +q
15:49:58 <Arnaud> ack ralphtq
15:51:17 <Anamitra> Arnaud: leaning to 1 wiki page - maybe will get big - but more closer to what we want to deliver
15:51:21 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/User_Stories
15:51:23 <Zakim> -DavidM
15:51:49 <arthur> q+
15:52:11 <Anamitra> Arnaud: 3 possibilities - 1 page with everything in it
15:52:30 <Arnaud> ack arthur
15:52:30 <Anamitra> or 1 page with abstract and then links to details
15:52:41 <Anamitra> or multiple pages
15:53:18 <pfps> q+
15:53:22 <Anamitra> Arthur: we should have index page in wiki - with links to details pages for each requirements
15:53:38 <Arnaud> ack pfps
15:54:06 <arthur> q+
15:54:08 <Anamitra> pfps: wiki pages allow individual section editing
15:54:39 <Anamitra> pfps: single wiki page - helps search.
15:54:45 <SimonSteyskal> +1 to peter's propsal
15:54:48 <Arnaud> ack arthur
15:54:49 <hknublau> +1
15:54:55 <kcoyle> +1
15:55:00 <Anamitra> pfps: is one of the reqs becomes too big - we can separate that to a different page
15:55:48 <Anamitra> Arthur: single "BIG" page can cause browser performance issue
15:56:20 <Anamitra> Arnaud: we start with one page and depending on how big it gets we may spin off sub pages
15:56:45 <Anamitra> Arnaud: can we agree to do user stories as opposed to use cases?
15:56:49 <arthur> q+
15:56:57 <Arnaud> ack arthur
15:57:13 <ericP> q+ to say that people look for the UC&R
15:57:31 <Arnaud> ack ericP
15:57:31 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that people look for the UC&R
15:57:40 <pfps> stories and use cases blend together, as far as I am concerned - the important thing that we have some ultimate purpose, not just a bare description of something that is going on
15:58:24 <SteveS> I pointed out on the mailing list the experience we have from LDP http://www.w3.org/TR/ldp-ucr/#organization-of-this-document , we started with a single wiki page to gather input
15:58:43 <SteveS> …which may or may not be a fit for this WG
15:59:24 <ericP> +1
15:59:29 <arthur> +1
15:59:30 <Anamitra> Arnaud:start with user stories - and develop on it
15:59:34 <ralphtq> q
15:59:39 <hknublau> +1 I will add my “Use Cases” I will copy them over
15:59:43 <ralphtq> q+
15:59:58 <Arnaud> ack ralphtq
16:00:45 <hknublau> Gosh, those 1 hour meetings are way too short right now…
16:00:58 <Anamitra> ralphtq: we should simple noun phrases that spell out what we are looking from the technology
16:01:37 <Anamitra> ... a glossary of such terms  is needed
16:02:31 <Anamitra> Arnaud: lets keep the mailing list diccussion going...
16:02:39 <Zakim> -SteveS
16:02:40 <Zakim> -Anamitra
16:02:40 <Zakim> -Arthur_Ryman
16:02:42 <Zakim> -kcoyle
16:02:43 <Zakim> -hknublau
16:02:43 <Zakim> -Nick
16:02:45 <Zakim> -ralphtq
16:02:45 <Zakim> -pfps
16:02:47 <Zakim> -Arnaud
16:02:50 <Zakim> -ericP
16:02:52 <Zakim> -SimonSteyskal
16:02:52 <Zakim> DATA_RDFWG()10:00AM has ended
16:02:52 <Zakim> Attendees were pfps, +1.510.435.aaaa, kcoyle, Arnaud, DavidM, +1.949.830.aabb, hknublau, Nick, Arthur_Ryman, ericP, Anamitra, +1.919.306.aacc, SteveS, SimonSteyskal,
16:02:52 <Zakim> ... +1.781.789.aadd, ralphtq
<Anamitra> Present: pfps, kcoyle, Arnaud, DavidM, hknublau, Nick, Arthur_Ryman, ericP, Anamitra, SteveS, SimonSteyskal, ralphtq
16:02:59 <Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
16:02:59 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:02:59 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:03:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:03:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/11/05-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
16:03:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:03:08 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:04:55 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
16:04:55 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/11/05-shapes-irc
16:05:04 <Arnaud> rrsagent, make logs public
16:05:50 <Arnaud> rrsagent, bye
16:05:50 <RRSAgent> I see no action items