16:10:42 RRSAgent has joined #sysapps 16:10:42 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-sysapps-irc 16:10:53 rrsagent, logs run past midnight 16:10:53 I'm logging. I don't understand 'logs run past midnight', dsr. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:12:05 rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight 16:12:21 meeting: Systems Application WG Face to face 16:12:26 chair: Wonsuk 16:12:30 scribenick: dsr 16:13:05 Present+ Dave_Raggett 16:13:58 Present+ Jungkee_Song 16:14:14 agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/System_Applications:_5th_F2F_Meeting_Agenda 16:14:17 Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen 16:14:19 Present+ Claes_Nilsson 16:14:31 Present+ Zoltan_Kis 16:14:36 Wonsuk reviews the agenda for day 2. This is expected to only last half a day. 16:14:54 Topic: Application Lifecycle and events 16:14:55 Present+ Jonghong_Jeon 16:15:10 spoussa_ has joined #sysapps 16:15:33 Wonsuk invites Kenneth to summarise current status of work in webapps on Manifest 16:15:58 forty4 has joined #sysapps 16:16:29 Kenneth: there is interest from a number of vendors including Mozilla, Google and Microsoft. 16:16:55 Wonsuk: what about scoping? 16:17:28 Kenneth: this is something we want to look at in version 2. This is about how do you scope what is in the app. 16:18:06 Wonsuk: any comments on manifest? 16:18:14 Claes: who are the editors? 16:18:38 Kenneth: Myself, Marcos and Anssi. 16:18:53 Claes: what support is there for content security policies? 16:19:06 Present+ Sakari_Poussa 16:19:18 Present+ Wonsuk_Lee 16:19:34 igarashi_ has left #sysapps 16:19:37 igarashi has joined #sysapps 16:20:13 Kenneth: we need to solve scoping before we can fully address CSP. 16:20:32 Present+ Laszlo_Gombos 16:20:51 kenneth_ has joined #sysapps 16:21:07 Present+ Tatsuya_Igarashi 16:21:26 can someone go to https://appear.in/sysapps 16:21:39 someone who's close to the mic in the meeting room 16:22:04 Wonsuk: Jungkees please give us an update on service worker? 16:22:14 There is two sides to CSP: Which rules applies to fetching the manifest and its resources (such as icons) and then which CSP to apply to documents launched from the manifest. The latter depends on us figuring out which URL scope applies to the application (ie, where does the app start and where does it end) 16:22:30 anssik: I am there. 16:22:41 anssik: nwo what? 16:22:44 Jungkees: very actively being worked on by Google and Mozilla. 16:23:03 Present+ Terri_Oda 16:23:05 Experimental versions are available for developers to try out 16:23:29 Present+ Tomoyuki_Shimizu 16:23:41 Present+ Kenneth_Christiansen 16:23:42 Google plan to ship service worker with chrome 40 16:23:55 forty41 has joined #sysapps 16:24:12 This is expected to ship very soon! 16:24:57 Microsoft has service worker and manifest in their dashboard for feature iimplementation roadmap 16:26:03 Wonsuk: I previously sent an email to the list on the status of App Lifecycle & events. Kenneth and Anssi already replied. We need to address scoping and the dependency on service worker 16:26:19 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sysapps/2014Jun/0016.html 16:26:31 q+ 16:26:48 Kenneth: the first thing is to decide how service worker integrates with manifest 16:27:18 Maybe this is just an extension of existing specs. 16:27:59 JonathanJ1 has joined #sysapps 16:28:15 do service workers / hooks inherit the app identity? 16:28:34 Zakim has joined #sysapps 16:28:46 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:28:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1 16:28:47 zolkis: what do you mean by app identity? 16:29:12 rrsagent, make logs public 16:29:13 Kenneth: I haven't thought about that 16:29:17 an app has an identity with the store, bound with manifest and permissions 16:30:06 Jungkees: the answer to Zoltan is yes 16:31:22 It is probably bound to the URI of the manifest. 16:31:33 indeed Message API object is bound to a ServiceWorkerRegistration object 16:32:25 Terri: I've been looking at additions to manifest in relation to webappsec. We need to coordinate across sysapps and webappsec on this. 16:32:52 and a ServiceWorkerRegistration object has its scope, which I believe is the thing that you mean the app identity 16:33:25 jmr_ has joined #sysapps 16:35:13 Wonsuk: so Kenneth we need to think about time for progressing app lifecycle & events? 16:35:25 Hyunjin has joined #sysapps 16:35:51 Kenneth: I am not sure we will need a separate spec for app lifecycle once we address manifest and service worker? 16:36:39 Sakari: so the conclusion is we can drop app lifecycle and rely on web apps? 16:37:00 Wonsuk: we need to investigate further before doing that 16:37:09 q+ to note the spec is an ED thus nothing needs to be retired since it is not on the standards track i.e. not published on w3.org/TR/ 16:37:44 Sakari: will webapps address what we need in the future? 16:37:59 Kenneth: I think so 16:38:26 Jungkees: service worker already includes basic lifecycle events, what others do we need? 16:39:54 Kenneth: let's see what web apps does 16:40:38 Dave: Does SysApps have a reasonably complete set of use cases we can use to assess whether the web apps work is sufficient for our needs? 16:41:18 ack anssik 16:41:18 anssik, you wanted to note the spec is an ED thus nothing needs to be retired since it is not on the standards track i.e. not published on w3.org/TR/ 16:41:29 Kenneth: some use cases would be nice 16:41:56 jun_ma has joined #sysapps 16:42:10 JonathanJ1 has joined #sysapps 16:42:22 btw, I can't seem to find the link to David Ross's proposal for manifest-related work, but the acronym was EPR and it will show up in the sysapps meeting minutes from earlier this week. 16:42:45 Wonsuk proposes we move on to the next agendum. 16:43:03 Topic: re-chartering 16:43:42 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sysapps/2014May/0017.html 16:46:53 s/sysapps meeting minutes/webappsec meeting minutes/ 16:47:28 igarashi_ has joined #sysapps 16:47:58 Dong-Young has joined #sysapps 16:53:44 JonathanJ1 has joined #sysapps 16:54:30 action: dave to follow up secure element with crypto and web payment ig 16:54:30 Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel. 16:56:23 action: wonsuk to send an email to web apps about current status, questions(about interesting of the group) of task scheduler api 16:56:23 Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel. 16:56:50 yesterday minutes - http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-sysapps-minutes.html 16:58:48 q+ 17:01:02 q? 17:01:23 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sysapps/2014May/0017.html 17:02:09 anssik: we cant hear you 17:02:19 Dave: Do we need to think about api related with IoT for new charter? 17:03:58 Sakari: It's interesting topic to us, but it's too early so community group is more reasonable to summarize use case and requirement for that 17:04:19 Sakari: I think we should defer new IoT protocols until they have been discussed in CGs 17:04:59 Anssi: do we have more than one implementation today of any of the SysApps deliverables? 17:05:21 Dave: what about additional BLE profiles besides GATT? 17:05:55 JonathanJ3 has joined #sysapps 17:05:59 Sakari: we could ask the Bluetooth CG if they are willing to address those, and if not we could consider additional Community Groups for those profiles 17:06:54 I think we do not satisfy the criteria for WG rechartering with the current deliverables unless we can attract more implementers 17:07:23 with only one implementation, we'd be better off incubating the work in a CG 17:07:38 I think we have 2 close enough implementations of the API's - we could work on get them even closer 17:09:16 Dave: if companies have an intention to implement then this is a good sign. We would of course need the implementations to be done before we can exit CR 17:09:32 we must define what counts as an implementation 17:10:05 +1 to put more effort on UCs and Reqs 17:10:09 my point is, FFOS has a kind of implementation, then specs deviated from that and we have them implemented in Crosswalk. If we can get these close in the future, we'd have a chance for those API's to be back on the standards track. 17:10:28 that could help attract new people, help them better understand the problems we're trying to solve 17:11:26 me thinks that basically we do act like a kind of CG for the WebApps WG ;) 17:13:09 we need to be able to clearly articulate how SysApps scope differs from that of WebApps and Device APIs 17:14:51 +1 with anssik 17:18:12 Dave: how can we get data on what kinds of APIs developers are most interested in? 17:18:25 Wonsuk: how about talking to the PhoneGap folks? 17:18:56 Sakari: they have daily data on which APIs are used - based upon downloads 17:18:58 http://plugins.cordova.io/#/ 17:19:38 Dave: we could also reach out to the Web Mobile IG who have been looking at requirements 17:20:53 We should be able to learn from both hybrid and native app developers 17:21:47 I think we all agree that when we started sysapps WG, we had a different security/lifecycle model in mind, and the past years went on reasearch and experimenting. Now we have more experience about each API, and IMO we should first decide where do we want to go with the app lifecycle/security model. Then come the use cases for API's and talking about implementations. 17:22:11 Dave: I wonder if Google or Apple might be willing to provide some data? 17:22:56 Wonsuk: we need to survey the APIs being developed, e.g. for Tizen 17:23:28 Dave: for Tizen, how have you determined which APIs are needed? 17:24:07 Wonsuk: we have requests from major application developers, and who have identified gaps in existing APIs 17:24:52 Wonsuk: we have first party and second party developers who are helping us to gather the data. 17:27:15 we break for 20 minutes 17:27:30 Wonsuk: we will resume at 10:50 PST 17:42:33 forty4 has joined #sysapps 17:48:36 GeunHyung has joined #sysapps 17:49:01 kn has joined #sysapps 17:49:51 We resume after coffee 17:50:27 nsakai2 has joined #sysapps 17:51:01 Hyunjin has joined #sysapps 17:51:21 jcdufourd has joined #sysapps 17:55:16 zolkis: we are talking now..can U hear us? 17:57:00 jyasskin has joined #sysapps 18:05:10 gludi has joined #sysapps 18:18:51 Dave will summarize by email 18:22:00 Dave will contact spec editors if any questions arise for publication when we already agreed to publish updated public WDs. 18:22:07 thanks Wonsuk for chairing, and all participants for good discussions 18:22:11 Wonsuk wraps up the meeting. 18:22:19 rrsagent, make minutes 18:22:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-sysapps-minutes.html dsr 18:30:14 jyasskin has joined #sysapps 18:32:44 tantek has joined #sysapps 18:49:29 tantek has joined #sysapps 18:53:03 tantek_ has joined #sysapps 19:07:25 Zakim has left #sysapps 20:54:12 lgombos__ has joined #sysapps 20:56:14 tim2 has joined #sysapps 21:00:40 tomoyuki has joined #sysapps 21:09:55 gludi has joined #sysapps 21:11:22 gludi|3 has joined #sysapps 21:17:06 tantek has joined #sysapps 21:56:16 marcosc_ has joined #sysapps