15:34:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
15:34:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-shapes-irc
15:34:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs 252
15:34:27 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #shapes
15:34:29 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
15:34:29 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:34:30 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
15:34:30 <trackbot> Date: 31 October 2014
15:34:42 <Arnaud> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:35:33 <Arnaud> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
15:36:17 <Arnaud> zakim, this is 26633
15:36:17 <Zakim> sorry, Arnaud, I do not see a conference named '26633' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:36:55 <Arnaud> zakim, room for 10?
15:36:56 <Zakim> ok, Arnaud; conference Team_(shapes)15:36Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 1636Z
15:36:56 <arthur> getting "conference is restricted at this time"
15:37:09 <Arnaud> yes, hold on
15:37:23 <Anamitra> same here
15:37:26 <Arnaud> we haven't started yet
15:39:55 <DeanAllemang> DeanAllemang has joined #shapes
15:40:24 <Arnaud> zakim, room for 10 for 600 minutes
15:40:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'room for 10 for 600 minutes', Arnaud
15:40:32 <Arnaud> zakim, room for 10 for 600 minutes?
15:40:34 <Zakim> ok, Arnaud; conference Team_(shapes)15:40Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 600 minutes until 0140Z
15:40:46 <Arnaud> ok, let's use that number
15:41:44 <Arnaud> zakim, code?
15:41:44 <Zakim> the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Arnaud
15:42:43 <Zakim> Team_(shapes)15:40Z has now started
15:42:50 <Zakim> +Arnaud
15:42:57 <Arnaud> zakim, call suite1435
15:42:57 <Zakim> ok, Arnaud; the call is being made
15:42:59 <Zakim> +Suite1435
15:43:30 <Zakim> +??P4
15:43:31 <Zakim> -Arnaud
15:43:37 <Arnaud> ok, we're on
15:43:40 <Arnaud> you can call in
15:43:45 <SimonSteyskal> zakim, ??P4 is me
15:43:45 <Zakim> +SimonSteyskal; got it
15:43:45 <Arnaud> code 26632
15:43:58 <Zakim> +Arthur_Ryman
15:45:14 <kcoyle> kcoyle has joined #shapes
15:45:36 <Anamitra> I am still getting conference is restricted
15:45:49 <SimonSteyskal> 26632
15:45:51 <Anamitra> ok
15:45:52 <SimonSteyskal> not 33
15:45:53 <Anamitra> got it
15:45:55 <kcoyle> Anamitra: the phone conference?
15:46:15 <kcoyle> ok, because arnaud just got on and started it
15:46:21 <Anamitra> right - but was dialing 33 - so will try 32
15:46:42 <Zakim> + +1.978.677.aaaa
15:47:01 <Anamitra> 978677.aaaa = Anamitra
15:47:07 <hknublau> hknublau has joined #shapes
15:48:04 <pfps> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:48:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Suite1435, SimonSteyskal, Arthur_Ryman, +1.978.677.aaaa
15:48:29 <SimonSteyskal> zakim, 1.978.677.aaaa is Anamitra
15:48:29 <Zakim> sorry, SimonSteyskal, I do not recognize a party named '1.978.677.aaaa'
15:48:30 <Anamitra> +1.978.677.aaaa is Anamitra
15:48:39 <SimonSteyskal> zakim, aaaa is Anamitra
15:48:39 <Zakim> +Anamitra; got it
15:52:45 <Anamitra> I dont see the slides from Eric's Shex
15:52:53 <Anamitra> is there a link for that?
15:53:06 <Nick> Nick has joined #shapes
15:56:43 <hknublau> I am trying to call in but it states that "the conference is restricted at this time".
15:57:07 <hknublau> (I tried using 26633#)
15:57:11 <SimonSteyskal> 26632
15:57:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:57:55 <Arnaud> sorry, we got a different number
15:57:57 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #shapes
15:57:58 <hknublau> Thanks, Simon
15:58:10 <Arnaud> Arnaud has changed the topic to: RDF Data Shapes WG: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Main_Page - Today's meeting agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/F2F1#Friday
15:58:12 <hknublau> Zakim, [IPcaller] is hknublau
15:58:12 <Zakim> +hknublau; got it
15:58:36 <kcoyle> Anamitra: are you looking for yesterday's slides of eric's, or today's?
15:59:10 <fabien-gandon> fabien-gandon has joined #shapes
15:59:12 <Anamitra> todays for SheX
15:59:49 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/mid/5453ABEC.1060106@gmail.com OWL CWA/UNA slides
16:00:10 <Anamitra> thanks EricP
16:00:25 <kcoyle> slide links will be on https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/F2F1#Friday
16:01:48 <hknublau> Could someone mute the computer presenting https://talky.io/shapes ? There is an echo.
16:02:36 <kcoyle> muted. better now?
16:02:49 <DeanAllemang> DeanAllemang has joined #shapes
16:02:54 <Arnaud> scribe: DeanAllemang
16:03:11 <Anamitra> Anamitra has joined #shapes
16:03:18 <kcoyle> hknublau: is echo gone?
16:03:28 <hknublau> Yes thanks, kcoyle
<DeanAllemang> topic: Presentations of existing technologies
16:04:10 <DeanAllemang> Schedule:  Peter, Holger (first hour)
16:04:20 <DeanAllemang> Eric, Arthur (second hour)
16:04:41 <Arnaud> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/F2F1#Friday
16:04:48 <Anamitra> the link https://www.w3.org/mid/5453ABEC.1060106@gmail.com from EricP does not work
16:04:59 <SimonSteyskal> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2014Oct/att-0070/constraints.pdf
16:05:00 <ericP> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2014Oct/att-0070/constraints.pdf OWL CWA/UNA slides
16:05:00 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Admits that he is inadequate
16:05:08 <ericP> at least it was shorter
16:05:57 <SimonSteyskal> talky.io/shapes
16:05:58 <Nick> Arthur, go to talky.io
16:06:07 <michel> michel has joined #shapes
16:07:14 <fabien-gandon> visioconf : https://talky.io/shapes
16:07:48 <hknublau> Anyone on talky, please mute yourselves.
16:08:09 <hknublau> better ;)
<DeanAllemang> topic: OWL/ICV
16:08:36 <DeanAllemang> pfps: How one could use OWL constraints as RDF Validation, much is impleented in Stardog
16:08:55 <AxelPolleres_> AxelPolleres_ has joined #shapes
16:09:02 <DeanAllemang> ...: 2 inputs RDF and constraints (in OWL axioms)
16:09:27 <DeanAllemang> ...: You can define new classes based on the RDF graph, constraints use extant voc
16:09:46 <DeanAllemang> ...: New defs are macros (non-recursive)
16:10:01 <DeanAllemang> ...: example (see slides)
16:10:56 <DeanAllemang> ...: OWL axioms - are they satisfied by this graph?
16:11:28 <DeanAllemang> ...: This isn't OWL entailments, these are constraints that are satisfied. The graph is a single model
16:11:38 <DeanAllemang> Does this way of looking at world satisfy this (these) axiom(s)?
16:11:46 <DeanAllemang> FO formula on a model.
16:11:53 <DeanAllemang> not on arbitrary set.
16:13:29 <DeanAllemang> ...: Herbrand model is the actual target model
16:13:36 <DeanAllemang> ...: Hence just about everyting could be SPARQL
16:13:58 <DeanAllemang> ...: Recxursive recognition condition is allowed
16:14:29 <AxelPolleres> this is a subset of restricted FO-queries, but not all FO-queries, e.g. UCQs work.
16:14:53 <DeanAllemang> ...: recursive data and recursive defintion requires some work in interpretation
16:15:15 <SumitPurohit> SumitPurohit has joined #shapes
16:15:49 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Recursive def can be done programmatically without much difficulty.  pfps: Yes, that's right
16:16:24 <Zakim> + +1.509.372.aabb
16:16:28 <DeanAllemang> pfps: There are many implemetnation techniques, that's one.  Usually can do this in SPARQL
16:16:47 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Allof the proposals can do this, right?  pfps: Not sure .....
16:16:50 <AxelPolleres> q+ to ask about where recursion here occurs?
16:17:20 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Recursive defs are tricky to get right.  All positive is not so bad,negatives can get hairy.  Don't do that.
16:17:37 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Let's forbid this.  Different intuitions about answers
16:18:36 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Typo on F   F == >=1 R.F    INTERSECT forall  R.F
16:18:49 <SumitPurohit> Which slide# we are right now ? Thanks
16:18:57 <DeanAllemang> There are no slide numbers
16:19:03 <DeanAllemang> This is "Example" at the top of the slie
16:19:07 <DeanAllemang> first line is "G"
16:19:11 <DeanAllemang> Does that help?
16:19:18 <AxelPolleres> q?
16:19:33 <DeanAllemang> AxelPolleres: 
16:19:50 <DeanAllemang> AxelPolleres: So this condition can only be satisfied by circular data? pfps: Yes.
16:20:15 <Arnaud> ack AxelPolleres
16:20:15 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask about where recursion here occurs?
16:20:34 <DeanAllemang> AxelPolleres: What does DL notation bring in terms of expressivity?  E.g., recursion, could we do that in SPARQL?
16:20:46 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Some can, e.g., positive turns in to iterative
16:21:01 <DeanAllemang> ...: Negative circularity,all bets are off
16:21:11 <DeanAllemang> AxelPolleres:  Doesn't do conjunctive queries
16:21:16 <DeanAllemang> pf: Unary and Binary
16:21:21 <DeanAllemang> AxelPolleres: Not relational algebra
16:21:37 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Can't define (eg.) rectange is twice its width.  YOu could do a square
16:21:39 <AxelPolleres> … neither builtins
16:21:46 <DeanAllemang> ...: Operations on datatypes missing.
16:21:59 <DeanAllemang> ...: Could use OWL syntax, plus SPARQL predicates
16:22:15 <DeanAllemang> ...:   In SPARQL ICF, up to E on tihs slide are supported
16:22:20 <DeanAllemang> (i.d., not the recursive ones)
16:22:26 <DeanAllemang> s/i.d./i.e./
16:23:02 <DeanAllemang> pfps: INput as above, output "Are constraints violated?"  also new vocabulary
16:23:09 <SumitPurohit> @Dean Thanks....Got it :-)
16:23:43 <DeanAllemang> pfps: To make this real, you'd add annotations for explanations, e.g., "no range", and report that back for the subject
16:23:47 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Simoilar to SPIN
16:24:11 <AxelPolleres> s/ICF/ICV/
16:24:59 <DeanAllemang> pfps: How it works:  Minimal RDFS model is the herbrand model of G, like a triple store does with closures
16:25:13 <AxelPolleres> q+ to ask whether there's any awkwardness around bnodes involved here or whether one should care about that?
16:25:17 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Potentially infitite graph is detail, but can be dealt with
16:25:57 <DeanAllemang> pfps: "Minimal" means only create objects for things in the graph, make them different,
16:26:13 <DeanAllemang> pfps: miminal/nonminimal is like closed/open  world
16:26:39 <DeanAllemang> ralph: Multiple types, does this cause a problem?
16:26:48 <DeanAllemang> pfps: That's fine, minimal model can deal with this.
16:26:53 <AxelPolleres> q?
16:27:12 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Ignore multiple containers is easier
16:27:30 <DeanAllemang> pfps: e.g., Integers, you could have an infinte number.  Don't do that
16:27:55 <Arnaud> ack AxelPolleres
16:27:55 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask whether there's any awkwardness around bnodes involved here or whether one should care about that?
16:28:00 <DeanAllemang> AxelPolleres: Assumes ICV treats blank as constants
16:28:06 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Cretae an object for the blanks
16:28:25 <DeanAllemang> AxelPolleres: All constraints can turn in to SPARQL, some are slightly different
16:28:34 <DeanAllemang> s/AxelPollere/pfps/
16:29:06 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Glitch - names are strings, and his is blank.  what then?
16:29:27 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Boolean is problemmatic.  What should we do?
16:29:59 <DeanAllemang> pfps: This is bad data - an error condition.  A violoation of framework.
16:30:21 <arthur> +q
16:30:34 <Anamitra> I see a lot of tools to describe complex constraints here - but I dont see a simple non SPARQL way to get a list of graph properties
16:30:48 <Anamitra> is there something I am missing here?
16:30:57 <DeanAllemang> Anamitra: Please go on queue to ask that question.  I'd like to discuss it
16:31:24 <DeanAllemang> arthur: ResourceShape has concept of "known property"
16:31:42 <DeanAllemang> arthur: A property has 0 or more occurencess is different from property not mentioned
16:31:48 <Arnaud> ack arthur
16:31:57 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Part of resource shapes is to talk aobut properties you konw about
16:32:14 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Some other property should be "unkown" can you do that here?
16:32:22 <DeanAllemang> pfps: No, not really
16:32:35 <DeanAllemang> pfps: this doesn't fit well into formal logic framework
16:32:51 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Use case is advertising what can appear in resource
16:32:59 <DeanAllemang> We had this example yesterday in our stories.
16:33:05 <Anamitra> +1 to the form builder use case
16:33:16 <DeanAllemang> Form builder use case is on our list from Pirate
16:33:43 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Core part is that this works the same as the others - translate to SPARQL
16:34:02 <DeanAllemang> pfps: One could argue that this is a human-readable fro certain humans
16:34:03 <Arnaud> q?
16:34:04 <DeanAllemang> q+
16:34:21 <Arnaud> ack DeanAllemang
16:35:01 <ericP> DeanAllemang: jachubus said ICV is the same as SPIN
16:35:05 <DeanAllemang> DeanAllemang: Kendall and Jacobus say that ICV and SPIN are identical
16:35:28 <DeanAllemang> pfps: This def is reductionins of the formal work that went in to ICV talks about OWL KB not RDFS
16:35:35 <arthur> +q
16:35:41 <DeanAllemang> ...: RDFS makes simpler treatment
16:36:08 <Arnaud> ack arthur
16:36:29 <DeanAllemang> arthur: disagrees with identity statement
16:37:01 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: We are not supposed to discuss comparisons in this session
16:37:08 <DeanAllemang> topic: SPIN
16:37:32 <AxelPolleres> http://www.slideshare.net/HolgerKnublauch/spin-and-shapes
16:37:33 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: History of SPIN
16:37:53 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Invented at TQ a few years back based on TQ's consulting experience
16:38:18 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: new way to use SPARQL to merge it with ontology deffs
16:38:40 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Supported by the tool stack (Composer, Live) plus and open-source API on  Jena.  No strings license.
16:39:06 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: No direct commercial benefit to TQ.  other vendors in progress.  Member submission in 97
16:39:31 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Some hesitance because of association with commercial software.   So TQ sees benefit of oppening up the standard
16:39:37 <pfps> s/97/2011/
16:39:44 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: SPIN match to SHAPES is very good
16:39:58 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Used around the world
16:40:25 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Constraint def.  for square - width=height
16:41:22 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: execute query for instances of Square.  Any that match are violations
16:41:35 <DeanAllemang> (hence width!=height)
16:41:42 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Anything in SPARQL is fair game
16:42:00 <AxelPolleres> … constraints need to be formulated negatively, to catch violations.
16:42:03 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: COmments are saved as an errror message
16:42:30 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: CONSTRUCT syntax to specify structure of the violoation.
16:42:52 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Not just a violoation, but stuff about it.  Which property is involved, points to "path" to the volation, and a label.
16:43:04 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Makes it possible to make names that include current value.
16:43:19 <AxelPolleres> CONSTRUCT constraints "fire" whenever they give a non-empty result, which is understood as kind of a witness of the violations
16:43:23 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: ConstraintVioloation is a RDFS class, is extensible
16:43:42 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: can have extra info for user interface
16:43:57 <DeanAllemang> pfps: On what nodes does this run on?
16:44:07 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: All the instances of square and subclasses
16:44:30 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: could run on whole graph; take the query, and put a clause at the start, with an iteration clause
16:44:57 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Can pre-bind variables if you have a single value
16:45:15 <AxelPolleres> q+ to ask whether constraints be only put to Classes
16:45:31 <DeanAllemang> pfps: e.g., I have a graph that says smallsqure sco square, A a smallsquare.  Does SPIN run on A?
16:46:20 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: DeanAllemang: ralph:  Yes.
16:46:36 <DeanAllemang> pfps: But RDFS corner cases that this won't cover.
16:46:59 <Arnaud> ack AxelPolleres
16:46:59 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to ask whether constraints be only put to Classes
16:47:04 <AxelPolleres> So, is RDFS resoning in-scope? is only "standard-use" of RDFS in-scope?
16:47:27 <DeanAllemang> AxelPolleres: CCan constraints be put only on classes, or also on the result of a query?  e.g., a 1-variable query that identifies resources, is this possible?
16:47:59 <DeanAllemang> AxelPolleres:  "Everything that has a name should have a an age"
16:48:00 <pfps> my question is whether constraints are always run on all RDFS instances of the class that the constraint is attached to
16:48:10 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: First have to infer a type
16:48:24 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Have to define a class
16:48:31 <DeanAllemang> q+
16:48:36 <DeanAllemang> q-
16:48:51 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres: this again shows the need for macros or rules (to define classes that you want to check constraints on)
16:48:58 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Shows a SPIN extension
16:49:22 <DeanAllemang> q+
16:49:36 <Arnaud> ack DeanAllemang
16:49:38 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Add info into the constraint so a search engine
16:49:59 <DeanAllemang> DeanAllemang: Exension needn't be in spin: namespace?   hknublau: yes
16:50:13 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Extensions are things that would have beeen in CONSTRUCT, right?  hknublau: yes
16:50:40 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Made the construct look like path query of Google
16:50:47 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: View this as syntax sugar
16:51:30 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: SPARQL in TBC, with pretty print, autoocmplete, etc.
16:52:10 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Example: Width of rectangle > 0 .
16:52:31 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: same thing for height
16:52:42 <DeanAllemang> DeanAllemang: Copy and paste is not a re-use strategy
16:52:58 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Generalize this constraint, same constraint with different property
16:53:12 <DeanAllemang> ...: Replace width with height
16:53:15 <DeanAllemang> hk: SPIN templates
16:53:44 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Next example is a template for positive values.
16:54:04 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Pass values in from outside, substitute property.
16:54:15 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Instantiate the template in the ontology
16:54:24 <DeanAllemang> q+
16:54:48 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Pass parameter to template, it will act as if the constraint were there
16:54:59 <Arnaud> ack DeanAllemang
16:55:41 <DeanAllemang> DeanAllemang: Do we treat this as macro-expansion?
16:56:08 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Uses pre-binding of SPARQL
16:57:09 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Shows instantiated templates, displayed in human readable way
16:57:20 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Human readable uses the metadata from the constrainty
16:57:41 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: This is jsut one representation.  Can alos see triples if you like.
16:58:15 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: systme can execute the constraint as SPARQL, or can examine the query
16:58:51 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: More tool support: Click on a class to create constraint at that class, system provides template list for you to generalize from
16:59:29 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: E.g., specify that some predicate is a key, and provides template for the URI, makes sure that it matches
16:59:43 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Can use it to generate the URI based on the ISO code (i.e., generation or recognition)
16:59:55 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: SPIN as constraint language and sharing metadata about class
17:00:24 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: more tool sppt.  For some ontoloyg, activate a constraint library.  E.g., SKOS constraints, they check the box, and the SKOS constraints are added
17:00:37 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Add in the OWL closed world axioms to TB constraint check
17:01:08 <DeanAllemang> hk: SPIN templates can be used to make domain-speciifc modeling languages
17:01:31 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Publish templates on the web, so they themselves are semantic web data.
17:01:51 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Also producing a high-level vocabulary to hide SPARQL from useres who don't know it.
17:02:02 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: While still generic SPARLQ engines can process them.
17:02:31 <Anamitra> q+
17:02:32 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: If yo have a SHAPES or OWL processor, it doesn't have to use SPARQL.
17:02:56 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: maximizes expressivity with friendly syntax
17:02:58 <Arnaud> ack Anamitra
17:03:14 <DeanAllemang> Anamitra: From slide 10 to 11, how did the tool figure out height and width?
17:03:39 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: That was part of the ontology design, specifies constraints on the properties that he designed
17:03:57 <DeanAllemang> Anamitra: If I have multiple constraints on heights, can I have that>
17:04:11 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: You can have two constraints, or merge into one node, to be shown in later slides.
17:04:31 <DeanAllemang> Anamitra: Seems like default model is driven by constraints, inferring properties seems from angle of constraints.
17:05:00 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Understand the question?   The ontoloyg designer defines a property, uses it in a constraint.
17:05:05 <DeanAllemang> taken offline.
17:05:17 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: SPIN Functions.  Like templates, but not as constraints, new SPARQL functions.
17:05:45 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: e.g., compute area, takes one arg, the rectangle
17:05:51 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: COmputes product of height and weight
17:06:09 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Use that function in another query  (in a BIND clause)
17:06:19 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Use this to simplify complex SPARQL queries
17:06:42 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Publish all these (templates, constraints, functions) on the Semantic Web (with URIs)
17:06:59 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Example -> http://semanticquality.org
17:07:28 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: e.g., subsets of OWL like OWL2RL profile , import that constraint set (etc.),
17:07:36 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: SOmeone can use this and extend it, web-style.
17:07:48 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Anyone can publish extensions, and popular ones will survive.
17:08:03 <fabien-gandon> NB : SPIN functions have an overlap with the ISWC 2014 paper on a Web of Functions https://github.com/lidingpku/iswc2014/blob/master/paper/87970401-toward-the-web-of-functions-interoperable-higher-order-functions-in-sparql.pdf?raw=true
17:08:03 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: This WG should define a starting point library of frequently used constraints and other
17:08:12 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Package this, and hope it is useful
17:08:28 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Layer cake picture of how it fits in.
17:08:59 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: SPIN is syntactic sugar on SPARQL, link to class defintions, Shapes library would be an instance of SPIN template library
17:09:16 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Would be nice to have OWL library in SPIN, e.g., CWA in a consistent way
17:09:23 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Re-use the ones they want
17:09:31 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: While suing types not expressible in OWL
17:09:45 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: OSLC_CM:ChangeRequest
17:10:30 <SumitPurohit> +q
17:10:38 <Anamitra> thanks Holger - the last slide help answer my question
17:11:02 <DeanAllemang> ralph: I use SPIN over OWL for OWLRL.  Is layer cake right?  Should have better OWL interaction.
17:11:53 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: SPIN has no dependency on OWL< but you can use them together.
17:12:01 <DeanAllemang> ...: That's why we drew it that way
17:12:17 <DeanAllemang> ...: OWLRL in SPIN , but no dependency
17:12:26 <DeanAllemang> ...: And that's what a layer cake means.
17:12:31 <Arnaud> ack SumitPurohit
17:12:50 <DeanAllemang> SumitPurohit: What is the current support for SPIN, and what does it take to do it?
17:13:09 <DeanAllemang> hknublau:  1) Open source API for Jena, which they can use (programmaticall) with just about any RDF database.
17:13:23 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Sesame was started, not finished.
17:13:35 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: Goal is that if this were standard, then the dbs will build this in.
17:13:56 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: e.g., say Oracle likes this, and adds a feature to the database to do this.
17:14:12 <DeanAllemang> SumitPurohit: Once adopted, would this be associated with a trigger for incoming data?
17:14:41 <DeanAllemang> hknublau: That's not for this committee to decide, that's up to the vendors.  Some may use it for validation on a form, some for UI, ... this is a notation, a declarative vocabularlyl.
17:15:11 <Zakim> -Anamitra
17:15:17 <Zakim> - +1.509.372.aabb
17:16:18 <hknublau> @Fabien yes I saw that. It's a similar idea.
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17:35:27 <AxelPolleres> http://www.slideshare.net/jelabra/semantics-2014
17:37:06 <DeanAllemang> zheng fong joined the room
17:37:13 <DeanAllemang> telecom equipment vendor
17:38:09 <arthur> see also http://www.w3.org/Submission/shapes/
17:39:08 <Zakim> +Anamitra
17:39:36 <DeanAllemang> topic: OSLC Resource Shapte
17:39:49 <DeanAllemang> arthur: slides from one year ago at workshop in Cambridge
17:40:10 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Since that presentation, submitted spec to W3C, cleaned up of OSLC Resource Spec
17:40:32 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Why Open Services Lifecycle Collaboration
17:40:41 <DeanAllemang> arthur: and IBM etc. did this.
17:41:00 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Arose from OSLC motivated by defining spec to enable integration of web apps
17:41:10 <DeanAllemang> arthur: use case of software system dev tools
17:41:30 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Different web apps hosting resources like bug reports, test cases, reqs, etc.   all resources are hosted in differnt apps
17:41:43 <DeanAllemang> arthur: cretead by different people in different roles, linked together.  Need a way to make them work toget
17:41:56 <DeanAllemang> arthur: REST APIs and RDF, good fit for Linked Data
17:42:11 <DeanAllemang> arthur: At the time LD was read-only, we wanted to take it to read-write
17:42:17 <DeanAllemang> arthur: How to cretae an update resources
17:42:44 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Developed in that communite, now transfered spec dev to real standards orgs W3C and Oasis.  OSLC continues as community
17:42:56 <DeanAllemang> arthur: We see SHAPES as second wave
17:43:11 <DeanAllemang> arthur: (see slide 4)
17:43:45 <DeanAllemang> arthur: ENcouarage re-use of vocabularies, discourage new terms
17:43:58 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Not createing ontologies, but rather assembling exising terms
17:44:19 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Integrity constraints on payloads.  Looked at RDFS and OWL, but semantics weren't of constraints, but of infernece
17:44:36 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Became aware of ICV, would have used that had it been standard, but it wasn't
17:44:50 <DeanAllemang> arthur: We needed constraints, so that was genesis of resoure shapes
17:44:59 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Not intended to be comprehensive
17:45:14 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Should be accessible to programmers who aren't RDF, RDFS or OWL savvy
17:45:24 <DeanAllemang> arthur: want descriptions machine readable
17:46:14 <DeanAllemang> arthur: query builder.  Query across multiple types, need to know cardinality.  For creating or editing resources, form builers, need form metadata.  But high-level enough fro humans
17:46:28 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Ideally, doc generate from shapes
17:46:56 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Example for bug tracking.
17:47:10 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Each row in table corresponds to a property in the resource, columns are constraints
17:47:35 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Overview of vocabulary on slide 8, and where resource shapes fit in.
17:48:02 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Web app provides services to create or query over a set of resources, those services need metadata.
17:48:24 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Eg, creating factory.  is a URL for a container that yo can post a definiton to.
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17:48:48 <DeanAllemang> arthur: SPARQL endpoint e.g., to describe content .  These can refer to resource shape
17:49:07 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Chart 9 is overbvie of vocabular terms, in OSLC spec, more specific in Submission
17:49:27 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Property resource refers to predicate, indicates a number of constraints
17:49:40 <DeanAllemang> arthur: How this might look in SPIN: Each constraint type cuold be a template
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17:49:59 <DeanAllemang> arthur: a lot of OSLC are good fit ofr spin, some aren't perfect
17:50:18 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Cardinality, mandatory, type of values, property refers to resource, recursion.
17:50:28 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Special important case: Set of enumerated values
17:50:37 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Reuse sets of values, e.g., COuntry Codes
17:50:57 <DeanAllemang> arthur: slide 10 is a simplified change request
17:51:09 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Resource Shape is a resource of type ResourceShape
17:51:27 <DeanAllemang> arthur: :describes refers to type(s) of resource
17:51:36 <DeanAllemang> arthur: List of properties expected to occur
17:52:31 <DeanAllemang> arthur: slides 11-17 are screenshots of how this appears in OSLC core spec.
17:52:41 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Details in submission
17:53:27 <DeanAllemang> arthur: slide 17: Not specified semantics precisely, didn't specify in detail what they meant, figured that programmers would know
17:53:36 <DeanAllemang> arthur: If we want to define this, SPARQL is a good match.
17:53:53 <DeanAllemang> arthur: As in SPIN, ASK tells if constraintt is violated or not
17:54:12 <DeanAllemang> arthur: In some cases, yo migth want to assert sometihng true, or something is an exception (violation)
17:54:57 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Some things refer to other graphs.  Read-only property, we can say that value after update is unchanged.  Then we'd run SPARQL on multi-graph (before and after) express constraint in those terms.
17:55:20 <DeanAllemang> arthur: May be referring to other graphs, e.g., some property p;oints to another kind of resource, then run constraint both on the subject as well as any referred graph
17:55:30 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Nuances of howt o phrase SPARQL semantics
17:55:55 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Chart 18.  Occrence constraint.  Like a SPIN template for the occurs property.  aggregating all values for a given property (status)
17:56:12 <DeanAllemang> arthur: For every resoruce the value of status is at most one, but not requires (count <= 1)  SPARQL is good for this.
17:56:27 <DeanAllemang> arthur: phrase constraint as exception
17:56:52 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Check to see that unequal values exist.  Coule return info as in SPIN CONSTRUCT
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17:57:27 <DeanAllemang> arthur: We haven't specified semantics precisely, we'd like the work group to nail this down.  Output of WG would be a set of high-level constraints with precise SPARQL semantics
17:57:41 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Some of the things are outside SPARQL capabilities
17:57:46 <DeanAllemang> pfps: e.g., BEFORE and AFTER
17:57:54 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Not really; just refer to the right data set as graphs
17:58:00 <DeanAllemang> arthur: before graph and after graph
17:58:14 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Tease out scope of constraints.  Some strictly on single graph, request or response
17:58:21 <DeanAllemang> arthur: IN others, a bigger context.
17:58:44 <DeanAllemang> pfps: You migth think that SPIN has same "problem", that it goes outside SPARQL.  But you can turn SPIN into single queries
17:58:56 <DeanAllemang> pfps: But now yo have to construct graphs, before/after notion, lots of other tings going on.
17:59:07 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Not saysing that SPIN is a copmlete solution, but a huge overlap'
17:59:22 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Apears to be something here that is NEW.
17:59:33 <DeanAllemang> arthur: Dont' get hung up on postcondition; simplest is "read-only"
17:59:52 <DeanAllemang> arthur: You could imagine others.  That would be useful, but message is that we want to describe REST apis, not just static rewsources.
17:59:57 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Thank you.
18:00:59 <DeanAllemang> ShEx next
18:01:22 <Nick> Nick has joined #shapes
18:02:47 <michel> the talky thing dosn't work.
18:03:01 <pfps> i don't think that we are connected to talky
18:03:16 <fabien-gandon> fabien-gandon has joined #shapes
18:03:18 <michel> there we go
18:03:36 <michel> works now
<DeanAllemang> topic: Next F2F Meeting
18:03:54 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Face to Face once every 3 or 4 months, need a host to find a room with internet
18:04:18 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Should have a list of opossibilties and dates
18:05:14 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Locations; we have members from all over the world.   A cost for travel varies
18:05:16 <michel> regrets, can't be there in person today
18:05:40 <Nick> michel, I restarted it, try again
18:05:44 <Nick> Network here has glitches
18:05:44 <DeanAllemang> @michel, we miss you :)
18:06:03 <michel> Thanks @DeanAllemang. I feel the love :)
18:08:51 <AxelPolleres> SEMANTiCS 2015 could be an option as well…. http://semantics.cc/www.semantics.cc/semantics-2015/index.html
18:09:02 <AxelPolleres> (for a later meeting)
18:11:44 <fabien-gandon> One possibility is ESWC 2015 http://2015.eswc-conferences.org/  May, 31th, 2015 to June, 4, 2015 in Portoroz, Slovenia close to Italy border
18:12:28 <fabien-gandon> Also WWW 2015 http://www.www2015.it/ World Wide Web Conference (WWW 2015) which will be held from May 18 to 22, 2015 in Florence, Italy.
18:12:33 <AxelPolleres> Slovenia is really close to Austria, so we'd be happy to host around ESWC in Vienna as well, although co-location with SEMANTiCS would be preferred from our side.
18:12:54 <ralphtq> Consider collocating with SEMIC 2015 - http://ec.europa.eu/isa/events/2015/semic-2015-semantic-interoperability-conference_en.htm
18:14:11 <Anamitra> +1 for Boston
18:14:21 <ipolikoff> ipolikoff has joined #shapes
18:15:04 <Nick> Nick has joined #shapes
18:18:23 <ralphtq> TQ could offer WG a location in Raleigh, NC
18:22:35 <DeanAllemang> PROPOSAL: Next face to face, 10-12 Feb
18:23:10 <ralphtq> Need to check if I can book a conference room at the Hunt Library - http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/huntlibrary
18:23:58 <AxelPolleres> +1 (though not sure whether WU members can attend physically on overseas meeting, but will check, otherwise joining remote)
18:24:19 <DeanAllemang> +1
18:24:34 <BartvanLeeuwen> +0
18:24:56 <ralphtq> +1
18:25:01 <pfps> +1, but I may not be able to attend physically
18:25:48 <SumitPurohit> +1
18:27:58 <DeanAllemang> RESOLVED: Next face to face, 10-12 Feb
18:28:09 <kcoyle> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/F2F1#Thursday
18:27:35 <DeanAllemang> topic: ShEx
18:29:18 <DeanAllemang> ericP: adds disjunction, semantic actions, grouping, negations  to Resource Shapes
18:29:41 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Semantic actions is an extensibility point
18:30:34 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Disjunction and groupoing were obvious things to add
18:30:46 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Not tied to a language, extensions in languages
18:30:53 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Added negation and inverse path
18:31:05 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Driven by regular expression intuition
18:31:25 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Regex over a set (of triples), but regular bag expressions that does exactly that
18:31:46 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Goal is to add semantics to the resource shapes
18:32:11 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Guessed that semantics on slide 3 means, "a foaf:name of type string, I have to have one, and no more"
18:32:27 <DeanAllemang> ericP: non-qualified universal constraint
18:32:35 <DeanAllemang> kcoyle: Over the whole universe!?
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18:32:40 <DeanAllemang> ericP: No, just this shape
18:33:02 <DeanAllemang> ericP: ex:name is a string, there is just one
18:33:22 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Another possible interpretation:  You satisfy there is one that is a string, others are unconstrained.  Former is probably more intuitive
18:33:49 <AxelPolleres> small detail on keaywords… would prefer something like minCardinality/maxCardinality over exactly-one/zero-or-one, … known terminology from XML, OWL, etc
18:34:05 <DeanAllemang> pfps: is OWL on slide 3 equivalent?  Yes, it is.
18:34:49 <DeanAllemang> ericP: slide 4: look at Jose slides
18:35:33 <DeanAllemang> http://www.slideshare.net/jelabra/semantics-2014
18:35:35 <DeanAllemang> Slied 11
18:35:35 <AxelPolleres> … starting with slide 11
18:36:08 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Terminals from Turtle
18:36:24 <DeanAllemang> ericP: notions of bnode, literal, URL, all the same
18:36:54 <DeanAllemang> ericP: (:Assigned :unassigned) on this is a value set.
18:37:14 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Could use * or + to mean more than one
18:37:25 <DeanAllemang> ericP: So if I had (....)+ then I could have more
18:37:34 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: Can you use
18:37:39 <DeanAllemang> | for disjunciton?
18:37:54 <DeanAllemang> ericP: @ is indirection, go over there
18:38:02 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Types are stuck in as bare URIs
18:38:21 <DeanAllemang> ericP: So if I have a uri, then it is just a literal restriction.
18:38:32 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Effectively UML.  When peoplewrite UML they write like this.
18:38:41 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Slide 12.  Arc rules
18:39:21 <DeanAllemang> ericP: value definintioons.  Can be a datatepe, a value set, an @reference, a stem (anything in this lex class of URLs), and you can say -, hwich means "anything except"
18:40:08 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Slide 14  identify predicates by qname or uri, stem, or subtraction
18:40:41 <DeanAllemang> AxelPolleres: Can have stems in teh alternatives in a value set?
18:40:45 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Not sure . . .
18:41:07 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Thinks they are permitted in the algebra, maybe the grammar, not sure
18:41:18 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Alternatives:  Either foaf:name or rdfs:label with a |
18:41:58 <DeanAllemang> pfps: | as XOR is not what you normally expe t
18:42:15 <DeanAllemang> ericP: | was to make decideability easier
18:42:37 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Cardinalitiy slide 16.  Just like regex, *, +, ?, nothing means 1
18:42:51 <DeanAllemang> ericP: {n,m} for at least n at most m
18:43:07 <DeanAllemang> pfps: This is all with the two-part reading
18:44:27 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Bottom on slide 16.  If you have a reproducdedBy, then you must also have a reprodcuedOn, whcih is a date.  If you miss one, you can't have the other.  "," means and
18:44:34 <DeanAllemang> pfps: This is where 5-value logic comes in
18:45:10 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Quantity (ab) in regex.  In order to do that logic, end up with logics with nested parens...
18:45:42 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Suppose reproduce were optional, I don't know if I am passing or failing.  0 mathces on a 0 is a different part of the truth table
18:46:10 <DeanAllemang> ericP: slide 17.  semantic action
18:46:24 <DeanAllemang> ericP: generic extensibility, e.g., is this date after that one.
18:46:40 <DeanAllemang> ericP: this wasn't in other language eg. Resource Shapes.
18:46:56 <DeanAllemang> ericP: arbitraty number of languages
18:47:06 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Handled like prefix declaration, type on a URL
18:47:21 <DeanAllemang> ericP: e.g., %js is my javascript
18:47:25 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: LIke Antler
18:47:33 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Your matching model drives the processing model
18:47:44 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Mathcing says, if you don't have this extension, then ignore
18:47:51 <DeanAllemang> ericP: this is superimposed on matching model
18:47:56 <DeanAllemang> pfps: So I can't optimize away things
18:48:08 <ralphtq> Semantic Actions are like ANTL? Eric said yes
18:48:15 <DeanAllemang> ericP: That's right
18:48:19 <ralphtq> ANTLR
18:48:38 <DeanAllemang> ericP: If you have side effects and return values that effect matching, then you can't optimize
18:48:55 <DeanAllemang> ericP: slide 18
18:49:40 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Operational Semantics in Zed and Setbuilder notation
18:49:57 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Recursion isn't formally represented in the Zed notation
18:50:04 <DeanAllemang> ericP: slide 19, 20
18:50:47 <DeanAllemang> ericP: ShEx ahs expressivity to use RS ontoloyg, then extended with a new namespace.  A purely conjunctive shape expression, in Turtle is identical to RS.
18:51:06 <DeanAllemang> ericP: ShExC is the Compact Syntax of ShEx.
18:51:32 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Semantic extensions: GenX and GenJ for XML and JSON.
18:51:50 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Round-triple to XML wtih an oder-transversal of graph to build a DOM
18:52:02 <DeanAllemang> ericP: slide 21
18:53:02 <DeanAllemang> ericP: This paradigm that was defined for semantic actions can be used e.g., for XML transformations.
18:53:23 <DeanAllemang> ericP: slide 22, 23
18:54:06 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Example for GenX.  Goal was to make it look like regex
18:54:36 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Slide 25 shows four implementations
18:55:10 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Slide 26  Motivating types that aren't fully descriminating.  Things with same type arc, different profiles of the same thing.
18:56:50 <DeanAllemang> ericP: ordering, reverse arcs, re-use rules
18:57:10 <DeanAllemang> pfps: The notion of validation here is the same as the OSLC?  (which I don't understand)
18:57:21 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Main one is "What is the semantics of a partiuclar arc rule?"
18:57:42 <DeanAllemang> pfps: For SPIN and ICV, storng notion of "what does it take to validate?"  When is a ShEx shape satisfied?
18:58:24 <DeanAllemang> pfps: You have these constraints, and a graph, and someone says "yeah" or "nay"
18:58:44 <DeanAllemang> ericP: I am passing this thing to that inteface.  Validate against this shape, I have a pointed graph (a graph plus a pointer)
18:58:52 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Rules for Y or N are recursive
18:59:18 <DeanAllemang> pfps: The doc doesn't tell me the rules, just a "shape".  You can determine whether a node in the graph matches it .... more or less
19:00:04 <kcoyle> scribe: kcoyle
19:00:35 <kcoyle> ericP: closed world recognition of shapes; pfps - that's not validation, that's recognition
19:00:47 <AxelPolleres> again 2 use cases … find shapes vs validate shapes
19:01:02 <AxelPolleres> (we already mentioned that yesterday)
19:01:17 <kcoyle> AxelPolleres: we have two use cases; find shapes or validate shapes
19:01:34 <kcoyle> pfps: does shape find that node in the graph, and does it validate it?
19:01:58 <arthur> +q
19:02:22 <AxelPolleres> there is a nuance on this, though, validation can include is the resource "just the shape" or is there  anything else than the shape around that resource, that's what I still don't have clear.
19:02:29 <AxelPolleres> q+ one more question
19:02:52 <Arnaud> ack AxelPolleres
19:03:24 <kcoyle> AxelPolleres: is the shape satisfied? is there more?
19:04:33 <kcoyle> ericP: 'closed-shapes' is what it's called - one possible answer is a dot-dot rule at the end; every shape is closed,then at the end you open the shape.
19:04:45 <kcoyle> AxelPolleres: what does it mean when you open it?
19:05:01 <kcoyle> ericP: it means: for any property that has been mentioned - no inference
19:05:15 <Arnaud> ack arthur
19:05:29 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres: but what if there is subproperty-inference? some approaches allow that...
19:05:44 <kcoyle> arthur: semantics of applying a resource shape: you have  a graph that has a triple that has an instance shape predicate - that's the starting node in the graph
19:06:26 <kcoyle> ... the other case is that you have a service you are posting resouces to; those are discriminated by the type of the resource; you see if any of the shapes describe that type
19:06:49 <kcoyle> ... if more than one is applicable, you have to apply them all
19:07:05 <kcoyle> .... take the intersection of those shapes
19:07:19 <kcoyle> pfps: doesn't see it in the submission document
19:07:30 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #shapes
19:07:35 <kcoyle> ... gives three kinds of shapes, but doesn't say what arthur just said
19:08:14 <Zakim> -Anamitra
19:08:47 <Zakim> -hknublau
19:08:49 <Zakim> -Arthur_Ryman
19:09:37 <Zakim> -SimonSteyskal
19:09:37 <kcoyle> rssAgent, draft minutes
19:10:05 <kcoyle> RRSAgent, draft minutes
19:10:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-shapes-minutes.html kcoyle
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19:57:58 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
19:58:16 <hknublau> zakim, [ipcaller] is me
19:58:16 <Zakim> +hknublau; got it
20:01:10 <Zakim> +Arthur_Ryman
20:01:54 <arthur> is anyone there?
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20:08:37 <arthur> pfps - see http://www.w3.org/Submission/shapes/#shape-resources, section 5.1 for an Overview of how to associate shapes with resources
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20:09:55 <Zakim> +Anamitra
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<DeanAllemang> scribe: DeanAllemang
<DeanAllemang> topic: Discussion
20:10:47 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Big issue before us:  Several contenders, many strong commitements
20:11:20 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: How do we go forward without losing anyone.
20:12:05 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Should W3C just standardize the market, or lead the market?
20:12:18 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Now we are 15 years in to RDF land, fairly entrenched
20:12:23 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Limit of waiting too long
20:12:55 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Bad to innovate too quickly, waiting is also bad.  But in any case, that's where we are:  Entrenched forces with  different positions
20:13:04 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: What is the process?  1) We could have straw poll
20:13:17 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Could make a resolution, with Objection possibility
20:13:29 <DeanAllemang> q+
20:13:42 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud:  If it is incompatible, that doesn't help
20:14:04 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Pragmatic approach, continue as yesterday, sue cases, reqts, different solutions, figure out what it would take to address them, with each solution.
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20:14:24 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: After possibly several months, we have a more objective process
20:14:35 <Arnaud> ack DeanAllemang
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20:18:25 <kcoyle> q+
20:18:31 <DeanAllemang> dallemang has joined #shapes
20:18:33 <DeanAllemang> q+
20:18:49 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Different from Simple majority
20:18:50 <BartvanLeeuwen> q+
20:19:36 <DeanAllemang> kcoyle: I think its too early to discuss the technologies.  We need to discuss use cases and reqts, whcih we don't really have much of. Just yesterday, that's not a lot.  Until that is nailed down, we hsoldnt be looking at technologies
20:19:37 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud
20:19:48 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: This is how he is promting people to say how should we proceed.
20:19:57 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
20:20:04 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: If someone is at "my way is the only way"
20:20:10 <Arnaud> ack DeanAllemang
20:20:15 <Arnaud> ack dallemang
20:20:42 <Arnaud> ack BartvanLeeuwen
20:20:57 <Nick> q+
20:21:08 <DeanAllemang> BartvanLeeuwen: Observing here and the mailing list.  Should the outcome of WG be something that increases adoption in general, not a certain technology
20:21:23 <DeanAllemang> BartvanLeeuwen: Discuss he sees is "Choose between technologies", maybe that's not the right way to start.
20:21:32 <ralphtq> q+
20:21:34 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: I'm not suggesting a vote now about how we go forward
20:21:43 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: There isn't one solution that does everything now anyway.
20:21:53 <Arnaud> ack Nick
20:21:55 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Any approach will require work to address everyone's needs
20:22:18 <DeanAllemang> Nick: Useful to have the background of the various techs, as we discuss the use casese, we can alll see the easy mtches from UC to technology
20:22:29 <DeanAllemang> Nick: We want to do more work about UCs in and out of scope
20:22:47 <DeanAllemang> Nick: We had a good discussion about the spectrum of Addressable, Query, Reusable
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20:22:54 <DeanAllemang> Nick: I'd like push more boundaries
20:23:00 <pfps> q+
20:23:19 <DeanAllemang> Nick: e.g., arthur pointed out that shapres are intended to address i/o of REST APIs.  A more specific functional req't
20:23:34 <DeanAllemang> Nick: Push on those areas, to see the boundaries of the problem we are trying to address
20:23:51 <DeanAllemang> Nick: None completely fill, others will be close, and we will exetnd ti to fill the remainder
20:23:53 <Arnaud> ack ralphtq
20:24:30 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: As Methodologist "SODA" Strategic Options Decision Analysis
20:24:39 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: Links to Cognitive mappings in COKE (LOL)
20:24:54 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: Lets' get decision criteria.
20:25:00 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: One is adoptability
20:25:10 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: Have to explore this space
20:25:13 <DeanAllemang> q+
20:25:23 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: SSM (Soft Systems Methodology)
20:26:29 <DeanAllemang> dallemang: Doesn't Ralph have a tool to facilitate such a session?
20:26:34 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: That is called Belief Maps
20:26:50 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: Proposes that the group chooses a decision methodology
20:26:51 <Arnaud> ack pfps
20:26:59 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Speak against "consensus"
20:27:02 <DeanAllemang> q-
20:27:13 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Against the pursuit of consensus
20:27:37 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Can end up with inoffensive crap pablum
20:28:18 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Seems like nobody is keen to rush to a conclusion
20:28:28 <DeanAllemang> (no objections to that)
20:28:42 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Would like to go to a process to compare the different solution
20:28:51 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Idea of processing seeems a key issue
20:29:18 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Even though we see how to do Resource Shapes in SPIN, there are some key differences.  How do you associate Shape to Resource or Service etc.
20:29:33 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Heard pfps question whether "Validation" is an agreed upon idea
20:30:01 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Have a comparison discussion to see how they compare.  Details in the corner cases.
20:30:37 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Which side do you want this attacked from?   Certain stories/use casees are invalid.   Or "out of scope"
20:30:51 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Then we argue about scope of use case/story/reqt
20:31:07 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Another thing is to figure out how to tell how certain technologies can meet certain cases
20:31:09 <DeanAllemang> q+
20:31:27 <DeanAllemang> pfps: How certain technologies can do certain things.
20:32:37 <ralphtq> SODA - "Strategic Options Development and Analysis" - a soft systems methodology (SSM) - google search reveals a number of useful starting points - http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=SODA+%22strategic+options+development+and+analysis%22&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_vis=1
20:32:39 <Arnaud> ack dallemang
20:32:44 <ralphtq> I will post a book reference next
20:34:40 <ralphtq> http://www.amazon.com/Rational-Analysis-Problematic-World-Structuring/dp/0471922862/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1414787659&sr=8-2&keywords=Rational+Analysis+for+a+Problematic+World
20:35:27 <DeanAllemang> dallemang: Can we do a comparison to tell how these things really differ?  They might be the same to a large extent
20:35:47 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: How about inferencing?  How does it interact?
20:36:04 <DeanAllemang> pfps: It certainly doesn't have to play with OWL, or at least, not all of OWL
20:37:27 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: to pfps How do we filter the stories?   Can we start by scoping any of them out?
20:37:30 <ericP> -> http://piratepad.net/ef5PhEyWgh Pirate Pad
20:38:42 <DeanAllemang> pfps: How about S5?
20:38:49 <DeanAllemang> dallemang: This one seemed odd to me when I first saw it
20:39:04 <DeanAllemang> Nick: But ths is jsut an app; this just recognizes a set of data.  What you do with it is your business
20:39:15 <DeanAllemang> pfps: I am happier with that; it is a special case of Closed World Recognition
20:39:25 <DeanAllemang> pfps: "What partts of this graph match a particular definition"
20:39:54 <DeanAllemang> Eric is editing the name of this theme in the Pirate
20:40:46 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Import parts of ontology - this is also closed world recognition
20:42:57 <DeanAllemang> pfps: S8 Something here is about e.g., before/after.  This is out of usual scope of SPARQL, when you bring in something else, you take a risk.
20:43:15 <DeanAllemang> pfps: A new capability can dilute your message.
20:43:29 <DeanAllemang> kcoyle: Not sure that's what this means.  Any number of shapes, can be applied in workflow.
20:44:18 <arthur> q+
20:44:27 <DeanAllemang> dallemang: The story uses a facility (multplle shpates) in an app that is out iof scope
20:44:39 <Arnaud> ack arthur
20:45:03 <ericP> q+ to say that they're the same
20:45:17 <ericP> q-
20:45:21 <DeanAllemang> arthur: I wasn't here yesterday.  You talk about Validation, but this is the Shapes group.  Not just validation, you are describing what is in the resources.  And saying, "that property never changes" is a description of the resource
20:45:48 <DeanAllemang> Nick: We didn't define scope yesterday; we explored boundaires, don't exclude/include anything specifically
20:45:50 <DeanAllemang> pfps:
20:45:51 <ericP> q+ to mention oslc:read-only
20:46:24 <DeanAllemang> pfps: I use the word "Validation", examining RDF Resources for something.  Given a graph, look for something.  That could be a minimal core.  before/after goes beyond that; that's all he's saying.
20:46:43 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: validation shouldn't be dropped, it is an important use cas.e
20:46:46 <Arnaud> ack ericP
20:46:46 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to mention oslc:read-only
20:47:12 <DeanAllemang> ericP: A couple of discriminators.  Something describes topology of graph, declares a set of valid things, so that is like Validation.
20:47:37 <DeanAllemang> ericP: On the other hand, OSLC read-only attribute, that is where we start to discriminate; this isn't Validation, not in the sense that we are likely to take on.
20:47:44 <DeanAllemang> ericP: But it is "description"
20:48:35 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Could do before/after iwth multiple data sets, wthout talking about workflow or time
20:48:48 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Does that make our job easier or harder?
20:49:10 <DeanAllemang> pfps: User Interface stories, maybe Validation / shape checking supports them, maybe not.
20:49:39 <DeanAllemang> pfps: min=0 story; is that going to part of what we say to the world?  If so, then claim it.  If it makes our life difficult, then we worry.
20:50:56 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: We used Pirate for convenience in the meeting,  In future, go to Wiki for asynchronous editibng
20:51:08 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: For next two weeks or so, everyone will add to it.
20:51:15 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: We will review on weekly calls
20:52:01 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: Story points (protagonist, pain, etc.), we might use this to help wiki people to add stories.
20:52:11 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Produce Use Case and Reqt document
20:52:20 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Have a User Stories document.
20:52:48 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: As we progress, this is useful, because if we exclude, that will inform us as well
20:52:49 <DeanAllemang> q+
20:52:59 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: out of scope for now.
20:53:13 <Zakim> -Anamitra
20:53:14 <DeanAllemang> pfps: There's out of scope because we don't think this is us, or it is not for us to do.
20:53:17 <Arnaud> ack dallemang
20:55:39 <DeanAllemang> dallemang: Early in FIBO, there were no stories, use csaes.  Difficult to get new people involved
20:56:07 <ralphtq> User stories versus use cases - http://www.stellman-greene.com/2009/05/03/requirements-101-user-stories-vs-use-cases/
20:58:48 <DeanAllemang> BartvanLeeuwen: The stories in Pirate are missing rationale - hard to read Pirate as stories.
20:59:06 <DeanAllemang> BartvanLeeuwen: Once they are in the wiki, we can fill them out.
20:59:24 <ericP>  \o/
20:59:44 <DeanAllemang> \O/
21:00:14 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: At the moment, it is still a free-for-all.
21:00:38 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Decide later what is in or out of scope
21:00:46 <DeanAllemang> kcoyle: There are more in DC work
21:01:03 <ralphtq> http://www.stevedenning.com/Business-Narrative/types-of-story.aspx
21:02:06 <DeanAllemang> BartvanLeeuwen: When ericP was emailing him last November, emphasis on UI generation.
21:02:11 <kcoyle> http://wiki.dublincore.org/index.php/DPLA_RDF_application_profile_use_cases#Overview
21:02:21 <kcoyle> The overview is a story, really
21:03:48 <DeanAllemang> dallemang: card=0 is actually a UI story
21:03:56 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Closed Shapes is similar to the card=0 stroyg
21:04:02 <DeanAllemang> s/stroyg/story/
21:04:20 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Does card=0 have elocutionary force in ShEx?
21:04:36 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Yes, in that if you don't mention it, then arbitrary triples aren't welcome.
21:05:29 <ericP> s/elocutionary/illocutionary/
21:05:49 <ericP> dallemang: how do we get to the technical comparison discussion?
21:05:56 <ericP> ... know the landscape
21:06:05 <ericP> ... there may be more common ground than we think
21:06:26 <pfps> q+
21:06:30 <DeanAllemang> dallemang: How do we get to having a comparision discussion
21:06:54 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: Proposes another pirate pad for decision criteria
21:07:28 <DeanAllemang> kcoyle: these stories are at high level.  They could break down into many use cases, each of those into many reqts.  That's how DC does it
21:07:37 <DeanAllemang> kcoyle: ONce we have that, we can match reqts with technology
21:07:42 <DeanAllemang> kcoyle: We need more work at this level
21:08:11 <DeanAllemang> kcoyle: One trick (That DC DB doesn't tdo) is to make the links between stories and reqts more visible.  Visualizeon screen, whcih ones are resolved with which technoloyg
21:08:15 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: We need D3
21:08:31 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: D3 is the JQuery of diagramming
21:08:44 <DeanAllemang> kcoyle: Which reqts come out most frequently, can't visualize them
21:09:25 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: Adding to kcoyle, we're confused by Ralph's proposal.   Reqts from nowhereonto a page
21:09:57 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: When you do a criterion workshop, cards, etc.  Some of that (from nowhere) happens, but criteria forces you to stand in the stories ot do it.  If you stand in a story, how do I know when I have a good solution?
21:10:06 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: How would i recognize it if I ran in to it.
21:10:17 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: e.g., Dean would know because his team can adopt it.
21:10:18 <pfps> q+
21:10:33 <Arnaud> ack pfps
21:11:20 <DeanAllemang> pfps: story -> Slogan -> What we want -> How we'll do it.  Something that story "really wants".  That will drive the technology and reqt's
21:11:37 <DeanAllemang> pfps: That's illustrative.  I don't want a 500 page doc to figure out what EPIM really needs to do.
21:12:02 <DeanAllemang> BartvanLeeuwen: In DataOnTheWebBP WG, they did that.  UC -> Reqts -> Grouping
21:12:07 <BartvanLeeuwen> http://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp-ucr/#UC-MachineReadabilityofSLAs
21:12:11 <DeanAllemang> BartvanLeeuwen: We weren't doing tech solution then
21:12:24 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: Tool called Accord that allowed people to score these things
21:12:47 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: Belief Map of how my opinion differs fro others; why did we score this differently than I did?
21:13:16 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: will post a link to a collaborative tool to find alignment and misalignment.
21:13:30 <DeanAllemang> kcoyle: Funciton of example is to see if we are talking about the same thing
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21:14:17 <ralphtq> https://davidullman.com/robustredirect.html for "belief maps"
21:14:32 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Like to look at differnece
21:14:40 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Which are fundamental, which are cosmetic
21:15:43 <DeanAllemang> ericP: The problems we'll run in to will fit in to Peter's head.  What happens when you build this system, and this corner case comes up, etc.
21:15:50 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Some are corner, some are philosophical
21:16:01 <DeanAllemang> pfps:  E.g., class-centric vs. something else
21:16:19 <DeanAllemang> ericP: e.g., SPIN vs. ICV.  Both are Class-triggered
21:16:47 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Is that essential to the appraoch?  The implmeentions do that, but in ICV, the theory doesn't rely on that.
21:16:53 <ralphtq> see figure 8 of https://davidullman.com/uploads/INCOSE_trade_studies_final.pdf for what a "belief map" is
21:16:59 <DeanAllemang> ericP: E.g., class is [],
21:17:07 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Or a property name, relationship
21:17:22 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Does that differ for type finding vs. validation.
21:17:50 <DeanAllemang> pfps: CWR (Closed World Recognition) you create a list of things that satisfy a shape or description.  Triggered in ICV by having a definition
21:18:13 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Only spac ein the margins : How do you get from Interface (or some expectation) and the shape that some node should match.
21:18:18 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Shippign a pointed graph
21:18:35 <DeanAllemang> ericP: In ICV, that's the same.
21:18:54 <DeanAllemang> pfps: SPIN/ICV triggers off of named classes, but that's because that's how RDF graphs types work.
21:19:18 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Potential philosopical difference is closed shape.   Diffiuclt in ICV, at least hard in ICV.
21:19:58 <DeanAllemang> ericP: ShEx compiles a SPARQL query to evaluat the shape.  eg  Find how many times it occurs, make sure they count the same
21:20:24 <DeanAllemang> dallemang: Why not FILTER NOT EXISTS {C ?pp O}
21:21:23 <DeanAllemang> dallemang: ?this rdfs:label [] . FILTER NOT EXISTS {?this ?p []. FILTER (?p != rdfs:label){
21:21:29 <DeanAllemang> s/{$/}
21:23:04 <DeanAllemang> pfps: Things that talk about e.g., stems is hard in ICV
21:23:37 <DeanAllemang> dallemang: We do this in FIBO a lot; CONTAINT (XS:STIRNG (?uri), "edmcouncil")
21:23:50 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: How do you decide "adequate"?  How do we rank requirements?
21:24:06 <DeanAllemang> ericP: It is important because I know how to solve it.
21:24:29 <DeanAllemang> ericP: A goal with my picture - 1) Are we talking about the same thing?  and 2) Is this important
21:24:43 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: Wher edoes imporatance spring from?
21:24:51 <DeanAllemang> ericP: Closer to 80/20 center, the more imporant
21:25:12 <DeanAllemang> kcoyle: How important for funciton X.  I can't do UI unless I have this info.  Importance has no meaning on its own.  Importance FOR doing something
21:25:26 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: If you don't, then you just have some assumption you aren't saying
21:25:34 <DeanAllemang> ralphtq: importance is also about stakeholders.
21:25:50 <DeanAllemang> Arnaud: we didn't talk about audience and stakeholders
21:26:19 <kcoyle> scribe: kcoyle
21:28:24 <kcoyle> Arnaud: stakeholders and audience: brainstorm
21:29:23 <kcoyle> kcoyle: stakeholders per story? or a separate list?
21:30:53 <kcoyle> ericP: climical informatitians; datamodelrs
21:31:07 <kcoyle> kcoyle: data creators
21:32:50 <arthur> API designers
21:32:56 <arthur> API consumers
21:33:03 <arthur> tools developers
21:36:37 <Zakim> -hknublau
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21:39:48 <kcoyle> arthur: we're heading into an API economy with data in the cloud; e.g. schema.org; KISS
21:40:30 <kcoyle> ... schema.org has eliminated combined namespaces
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21:43:24 <michel> +q will the language developed be more broadly applicable than just RDF?
21:43:33 <michel> not on the phone
21:43:40 <michel> talky!
21:43:48 <michel> yup
21:44:14 <Arnaud> did we lose you?
21:44:36 <Arnaud> ack michel
21:45:10 <DeanAllemang> q+
21:45:38 <Arnaud> ack dallemang
21:46:33 <kcoyle> michel: are we limiting our work to RDF, or do we try to do something that can support other technologies?
21:46:58 <kcoyle> dallemang: we should limit ourselves to rdf
21:47:03 <arthur> +1 - we need to focus on RDF
21:47:19 <kcoyle> Arnaud: Michel, what's your answer?
21:47:35 <kcoyle> michel: impact would be greater if we don't limit to rdf
21:47:50 <kcoyle> dean and Peter disagree
21:48:14 <kcoyle> michel: there are people using rdbms, other technologies, and they could benefit
21:48:23 <DeanAllemang> q+
21:48:34 <kcoyle> Arnaud: is that feasible? or is that a formula for failure?
21:49:15 <kcoyle> ericP: one of two solutions: we'll solve in RDF; and we'll do it in a meta layer, and then no one will use it
21:49:19 <Arnaud> ack dallemang
21:49:39 <kcoyle> dallemang: I don't want to compete with relaxng
21:50:42 <kcoyle> michel: i am currently working with folks to produce json-ld, not rdf, so trying to lift all boats to rdf;
21:50:59 <michel> network problems
21:51:00 <Arnaud> we lost you
21:51:02 <Arnaud> yep
21:51:54 <kcoyle> ... not that we should try to solve all problems, but are some of the attributes of relaxng,.. intersecting with ... could a subset of what we are talking about be made obviously relevant to others?
21:52:45 <kcoyle> ericP: first push forward with rdf, then look and see if it is relevant to others; can this draw people into 'our' technology? thus, look at this later in the process
21:53:01 <kcoyle> michel: after we've done rdf, examine its feasibility of application
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22:34:40 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
22:38:50 <kcoyle> kcoyle has joined #shapes
22:39:28 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
22:39:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see Suite1435, Arthur_Ryman, [IPcaller]
22:39:48 <ericP> ~
22:39:54 <hknublau> zakim, ipcaller is me
22:39:54 <Zakim> +hknublau; got it
22:39:55 <kcoyle> ralph's graph: stakeholders must features in a story; requirements are enabled by capabilities; technologies enable capabilities
22:40:11 <kcoyle> ericP: what's a capability?
22:40:30 <kcoyle> ralph: maps requirements to capabilities
22:41:28 <kcoyle> dallemang: e.g. locate a constraint based on a use (noun phrase)
22:41:53 <kcoyle> ralph: 'enterprise service bus adaptor' -
22:42:10 <kcoyle> ralph: x resolver
22:43:03 <kcoyle> ericP: ability to do stemming on IRI strings; constrain object to that IRI stem = IRI stemmer/stemmer decomposer
22:44:17 <kcoyle> Arnaud: 2 possibilities for the remaining time - go back to requirements discussion of yesterday; or go back to tech discussion of earlier today - what are the differences between the technologies?
22:45:25 <kcoyle> kcoyle: what are the consequences of choosing a technology? (a particular technology)
22:46:08 <kcoyle> pfps: look at spin: could you associate it with things other than types, but can't imagine how it would pay attention to order
22:48:14 <kcoyle> dallemang: you can put a ui on regex that others can create without knowing regex
22:48:56 <kcoyle> ralph: paradigms; what paradigm of sameness is being used when people say: it's the same
22:49:43 <kcoyle> ... if people ask me what did you get out of this workshop, i'd say: you con probably map these technologies better than I thought before
22:50:10 <kcoyle> ... i'm surprised at th extent to which things can align
22:50:30 <kcoyle> Arnaud: i've heard others say that; we may not be as far apart as we thought initially; that's a great take-away
22:51:40 <ralphtq> ralphtq has joined #shapes
22:52:30 <kcoyle> ericP: other candidates for tech discussion: semantics of resource shapes with card one or more and type of foo - is that the same as owl saying type of foo ... etc. are the functions identical?
22:52:48 <kcoyle> ericP: eric suggests that they are
22:53:07 <kcoyle> .. but no formal defintiion of resource shapes
22:53:55 <kcoyle> ... if i have a predicate and I say it's X and has object type foo, and cardinality of one or more - is that the same as all values from foo and min card one OWL ... ICV?
22:54:19 <kcoyle> arthur: i'm gonna say yes, because i'm not aware of anything that would make it different
22:55:08 <kcoyle> ericP: property definition for foaf:name and another property def for foaf:name in the same shape? would you have to match both?
22:55:45 <kcoyle> arthur: checking....
22:56:04 <kcoyle> ericP: the semantics i tried said you cannot do that, but that surprised Peter
22:56:33 <kcoyle> ... not clear between Eric and Peter if that's allowed
22:57:15 <kcoyle> arthur: spec isn't that clear; so either the spec is inadquate, or that it is a feature; if 2 prop resources, you'd apply conjunction semantics
22:57:39 <kcoyle> ... if conflicting properties then no resource would satisfy it
22:58:05 <kcoyle> ... perhaps we should tighten up the spec, or make it disjunction
22:58:31 <kcoyle> ericP: is that hard for icv to do?
22:59:54 <kcoyle> pfps: you'd have two restrictions; easy to do; qualified cardinality constructions do exist
23:00:12 <kcoyle> ... these are a bit unusual
23:00:34 <kcoyle> ralph: is this a story?
23:01:42 <kcoyle> pfps: jewish grandmother story, have to have one grandchild who is a professional - not exactly one grandchild and that one has to be a profession
23:02:13 <kcoyle> ericP: to peter, if you had to pick a terse syntax, wouldit address qualified or unqualified restriction?
23:02:40 <kcoyle> pfps: the problem i have with terse syntax being conjunction, seems to put two things that are different together
23:03:05 <kcoyle> ericP: my pref is that if you have all values is not a cardinality constraint
23:03:39 <kcoyle> dallemang: in icv you can write unqualified cardinality or qualified
23:04:07 <kcoyle> pfps: terse in owl is qualified cardinality; but you could create a connector that is conjunction
23:04:53 <kcoyle> ralph: when i think about shapes i can get confused about a client providing payload vs. when I ask from a system, what will I get back? subtly different
23:05:06 <kcoyle> ... maybe want to make a distinction between posting and getting
23:05:46 <kcoyle> ericP: e.g. dc:creator - will reject or throw it on the floor; a system uses a select set of predicates
23:06:17 <kcoyle> ralph: what is the scenario of use for a shape profile? how will developers use a shape?
23:07:10 <kcoyle> Arnaud: oslc - have different domains where partner with other industry players, to define interoperability so products can talk to each other
23:07:51 <kcoyle> ... we want to integrate around what a defect is; we specify shapes for this; that gives people the contract they will use to insure interoperability
23:08:30 <kcoyle> ralph: when I supply an instance on this class I want to if what I'm giving you is what you require
23:09:03 <kcoyle> Arnaud: oasis standards: creating resource shapes that apply to a domain
23:09:49 <kcoyle> ericP: where are we with resource shapes and owl/icv?
23:10:21 <kcoyle> ... are RS and owl/icv have the same common utterance?
23:10:51 <kcoyle> dallemang: you can say whatever you want; there is no common utterance
23:12:01 <kcoyle> pfps: there is an atomic one, but it's not the same as common; were created to satisfy 'normal' requirements; manchester syntax is different from owl solution in this area
23:12:41 <kcoyle> ... in manchester syntax there were some things that were written differently - esp. some and all
23:13:18 <Arnaud> http://www.w3.org/2014/Talks/1031-ShEx-egp/#%283%29
23:13:44 <kcoyle> ericP: slide 3 example w max 1 {{ ex:assigned , ex:unassigned.....
23:14:27 <kcoyle> pfps: manchester - only some is the only one; people wrote some values from and didn't know why they didnt get 'al' as well
23:14:58 <kcoyle> dallemang: this is a common error
23:15:12 <kcoyle> pfps: this is th eonly one in manchester, because it's the most common
23:15:29 <kcoyle> ... there may be others, but there isn't enough experience to know if there are others
23:15:48 <kcoyle> dallemang: many can be '2' e.g. contracts of 2 parties
23:16:04 <kcoyle> pfps: as this becomes more common, we'll see more errors
23:17:11 <kcoyle> ericP: bottom write of slide three - is this correct? is status always assigned or unassigned, and there is a max of 1;
23:17:21 <kcoyle> pfps: yes, manchester does do qualified cardinality
23:17:53 <kcoyle> ... oftentimes ina superclass it says that you have to have only one status;
23:19:27 <kcoyle> ericP: [has made a change - now says max 1 owl: thing, ex:tatus only {{ etc.)
23:19:55 <kcoyle> pfps: combo of parens and braces ... odd, but may be benign
23:20:12 <kcoyle> ... so now resource shapes and owl are saying the same thing
23:21:05 <kcoyle> ... now asking arthur to answer if RS and ICV on the page are the same
23:22:42 <kcoyle> arthur: i think it looks correct; although there is an extta bracket in example, but otherwise ... there is an inconsistency
23:23:41 <kcoyle> ... need to use same namespace in both; not completely the same; is xsd:string =rdfs: literal?
23:24:24 <kcoyle> pfps: value space of html literal is disjoint string
23:24:39 <kcoyle> .... that's xsd:string
23:25:19 <kcoyle> ericP: property definition is that value type implies an all values from, occurs is obvious, and they are unqualified cardinality constraint
23:26:02 <kcoyle> ... unqualified: how many values / qualified: how many of this value
23:27:24 <kcoyle> dallemang: how does one define the semantics of a shape? reduce it to sparql, or the semantics are owl; or you can say icv is equiv. spin/icv - shapes could be syntactic sugar over either of these
23:27:35 <kcoyle> pfps: or spin is just macros for sparql queries
23:28:23 <kcoyle> arthur: for RS the different shapes can be translated to spin templates; which he did in his talk;
23:29:16 <kcoyle> ericP: upper corner -- now is sparql but people aren't happy with it - it would be more readable in spin (as per Arthur and others)
23:30:11 <kcoyle> ericP: is sparql saying same thing as owl? on this slide
23:30:23 <kcoyle> arthur: let's fix the code and then look at it
23:32:20 <kcoyle> pfps: sparql in example is missing a lot; you're doing recognition (a la shex) ; shex defines a shape, sparql returns true or false; ask is a query, with boolean response
23:32:45 <kcoyle> ... replace ask with select ?s -- some of this is unnecessary
23:35:13 <Bart_van_Leeuwen> Bart_van_Leeuwen has left #shapes
23:37:24 <kcoyle> pfps: ok, now matches first half of top left
23:37:59 <kcoyle> ericP: second have is a similar pattern, but has named objects
23:39:45 <kcoyle> arthur: better if more modular; we might be able to convince ourselves that it's correct
23:40:08 <kcoyle> ... odds of getting it right are inverse proportional to the length
23:40:36 <kcoyle> pfps: do it once, make a template, then everyone can re-use it
23:42:07 <kcoyle> pfps: could do same thing using sparql minus so minus set is empty
23:42:19 <kcoyle> dallemang: or filter on exists
23:43:35 <kcoyle> ... the whole idea of spin is that you define macros and make language readable
23:43:53 <kcoyle> ralph: when we program we use libraries that exist
23:44:41 <kcoyle> ralph: put up basic graph pattern
23:45:02 <kcoyle> arthur: are you trying to select the resources that satisfy the constraints
23:45:14 <kcoyle> ericP: yes, testing cardinality constraints
23:45:47 <hknublau> just use spl:objectCount() SPIN function
23:46:09 <kcoyle> ralph: we're comparing executable and non-executable - comparing apples and oranges?
23:47:04 <kcoyle> dallemang: assign this to spin experts
<kcoyle> topic: Wrap-up
23:50:40 <kcoyle> Arnaud: wrapping up: good to see that the different technologies have much in common; now have a good understanding of landscape, what we hope to develop. All good news.
23:51:58 <kcoyle> ... shall we have a call next week to report out after the f2f for the others? and for ourselves, to summarize and restate.
23:54:09 <kcoyle> ... issue of editing irc logs and minutes: need to give permissions to other members of the group; use html put to replace; those are the only possibilities
23:55:19 <Arnaud> action: arnaud to copy/paste the pirate pad content to our wiki
23:55:20 <trackbot> Error creating an ACTION: could not connect to Tracker.  Please mail <sysreq@w3.org> with details about what happened.
23:57:25 <Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
23:57:25 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
23:57:25 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Arnaud, Suite1435, SimonSteyskal, Arthur_Ryman, +1.978.677.aaaa, Anamitra, hknublau, +1.509.372.aabb
23:57:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
23:57:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
23:57:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
23:57:34 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-shapes-actions.rdf :
23:57:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: arnaud to copy/paste the pirate pad content to our wiki [1]
23:57:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-shapes-irc#T23-55-19
23:57:37 <Zakim> -Suite1435
23:57:38 <Zakim> -hknublau
23:57:39 RRSAgent left the room (RRSAgent).
23:57:42 <Zakim> -Arthur_Ryman
23:57:43 hknublau left the room (hknublau).
23:57:44 <Zakim> Team_(shapes)15:40Z has ended
23:57:44 <Zakim> Attendees were Arnaud, Suite1435, SimonSteyskal, Arthur_Ryman, +1.978.677.aaaa, Anamitra, hknublau, +1.509.372.aabb
<kcoyle> present: Arnaud, SimonSteyskal, Arthur_Ryman, Anamitra, hknublau, michel, kcoyle, pfps, ericP, Nick, AxelPolleres, fabien-gandon, DeanAllemang, SumitPurohit, BartvanLeeuwen
<kcoyle> chair: Arnaud

00:02:47 <michel> bye!
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