IRC log of pf on 2014-10-31
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 15:37:33 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #pf
- 15:37:33 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-pf-irc
- 15:37:35 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs member
- 15:37:35 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #pf
- 15:37:37 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
- 15:37:37 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PF()11:00AM scheduled to start 37 minutes ago
- 15:37:38 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
- 15:37:38 [trackbot]
- Date: 31 October 2014
- 15:37:39 [MichaelC]
- rrsagent, do not start a new log
- 15:45:37 [kurosawa]
- kurosawa has joined #pf
- 15:51:01 [jamesn]
- jamesn has joined #pf
- 15:51:54 [MichaelC]
- -> http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-pf-minutes Minutes from yesterday
- 15:54:09 [jamesn]
- jamesn has changed the topic to: PF F2F at TPAC; Friday 31 October beginning 16:00Z; http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/tp2014
- 15:55:53 [Zakim]
- WAI_PF()11:00AM has now started
- 15:56:00 [Zakim]
- + +1.650.738.aaaa
- 15:56:25 [jamesn]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 15:56:25 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see +1.650.738.aaaa
- 15:56:43 [TF]
- TF has joined #pf
- 15:57:16 [bgaraventa1979]
- bgaraventa1979 has joined #pf
- 15:57:38 [Bert]
- Bert has joined #pf
- 15:57:39 [astearns]
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- 15:57:43 [bgaraventa1979]
- zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
- 15:57:43 [Zakim]
- sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not see a party named 'Bryan_Garaventa'
- 15:57:43 [ShaneM]
- ShaneM has joined #pf
- 15:58:04 [bgaraventa1979]
- zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
- 15:58:04 [Zakim]
- +Bryan_Garaventa; got it
- 15:58:20 [bgaraventa1979]
- zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
- 15:58:20 [Zakim]
- ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
- 15:58:37 [bgaraventa1979]
- would it be alright if I dialed in?
- 15:58:49 [liam_]
- liam_ has joined #pf
- 15:59:55 [Zakim]
- -Bryan_Garaventa
- 15:59:56 [Zakim]
- WAI_PF()11:00AM has ended
- 15:59:56 [Zakim]
- Attendees were +1.650.738.aaaa, Bryan_Garaventa
- 16:00:18 [Zakim]
- WAI_PF()11:00AM has now started
- 16:00:23 [MichaelC]
- zakim, call suite1234
- 16:00:23 [Zakim]
- ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
- 16:00:25 [Zakim]
- +James_Nurthen
- 16:00:28 [fesch]
- fesch has joined #pf
- 16:00:35 [ShaneM]
- present+ ShaneM
- 16:00:44 [bgaraventa1979]
- please do, it rang but no one on the other end
- 16:01:22 [MichaelC]
- zakim, call suite1234
- 16:01:22 [Zakim]
- ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
- 16:01:23 [Zakim]
- +Suite1234
- 16:02:00 [Zakim]
- -James_Nurthen
- 16:02:42 [Zakim]
- +Bryan_Garaventa
- 16:05:18 [ShaneM_]
- ShaneM_ has joined #pf
- 16:05:26 [MichaelC]
- present: Janina_Sajka, James_Nurthen, Michael_Cooper, Joanie_Diggs, John_Foliot, Shane_McCarron, Fred_Esch, Bert_Bost, Markku_Hakkinen, Kurosawa_Takeshi, Alan_Stearns
- 16:05:34 [ShaneM_]
- ScribeNick: ShaneM_
- 16:05:46 [ShaneM_]
- zakim, who is here?
- 16:05:46 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Suite1234, Bryan_Garaventa
- 16:05:47 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see ShaneM_, fesch, liam_, ShaneM, astearns, Bert, bgaraventa1979, TF, jamesn, kurosawa, Zakim, RRSAgent, MichaelC, clown, janina__, scott_gonzalez, janina, joanie,
- 16:05:47 [Zakim]
- ... trackbot
- 16:05:55 [ShaneM_]
- TOPIC: CSS Overview
- 16:06:13 [MichaelC]
- present+ Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
- 16:06:33 [ShaneM_]
- JS: Our desire is to understand how CSS is thinking about CSS and its connection to the complex ox of specs
- 16:06:38 [MichaelC]
- chair: Janina_Sajka
- 16:06:53 [MichaelC]
- meeting: PF TPAC 2014 Face to Face DAy 2
- 16:07:02 [MichaelC]
- meeting: PF TPAC 2014 Face to Face Day 2
- 16:07:11 [ShaneM_]
- JS: There are probably some questions from us. But maybe CSS people could talk about context.
- 16:07:24 [MichaelC]
- present+ James_Craig
- 16:07:35 [bgaraventa1979]
- is the number for muting my line 61?
- 16:07:41 [ShaneM_]
- RS: What we are seeing is a couple of things. We have the ability to inject content into a page with CSS.
- 16:07:53 [bgaraventa1979]
- thnaks
- 16:07:56 [ShaneM_]
- ... there are a lot of modules and we are unsure how they all hook together.
- 16:07:58 [fesch_]
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- 16:08:01 [MichaelC]
- present+ Jon_Gunderson
- 16:08:26 [ShaneM_]
- ... A11Y relies on the DOM. If CSS can inject things then it can confuse the A11Y efforts.
- 16:08:41 [ShaneM_]
- ... second we are looking at flexbox. flexbox changes the flow of the page.
- 16:08:57 [jcraig]
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- 16:08:58 [ShaneM_]
- ... navigation via keyboard may not follow the flow of the flexbox
- 16:09:07 [ShaneM_]
- ... should flexbox change the keyboard navigation?
- 16:09:19 [jcraig]
- q+
- 16:09:51 [TF]
- zakim, TF is JF
- 16:09:51 [Zakim]
- sorry, TF, I do not recognize a party named 'TF'
- 16:10:07 [ShaneM_]
- FE: If someone uses angular, for example, to change things and display gets changed to none for some things, then there could be issues. are there events?
- 16:10:11 [TF]
- zakim, TF is now JF
- 16:10:11 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'TF is now JF', TF
- 16:10:18 [ShaneM_]
- JC: There are platform events.
- 16:10:39 [JF]
- JF has joined #PF
- 16:10:54 [ShaneM_]
- ???: The question is how does angular change the display mode. There are mutation events.
- 16:11:18 [ShaneM_]
- JC: No one uses those though. BUt the rendering engine will do something sensible and raise events.
- 16:11:18 [astearns]
- s/???/astearns/
- 16:11:49 [ShaneM_]
- FE: It is not clear that things always get done correctly.
- 16:12:10 [jcraig]
- ack me
- 16:12:20 [ShaneM_]
- JC: Some changes might not be obviosly important to the engine - like changing a class.
- 16:12:43 [bcampbell]
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- 16:12:47 [ShaneM_]
- ... most of the A11Y tools work with the view layer.
- 16:13:08 [bcampbell]
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- 16:13:17 [ShaneM_]
- JC: The text content that is generated by CSS is available to the rendering engine so it is available to AT on most platforms.
- 16:13:19 [bcampbell]
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- 16:13:34 [joanie]
- q+ To say it might not be CSS's issue, but there are issues bigger than ATs and a11y API needs
- 16:13:39 [ShaneM_]
- ... And it is accessible to the DOM.
- 16:13:41 [ShaneM_]
- q?
- 16:13:59 [ShaneM_]
- ... we have asked for alt on injected content, and it was provided.
- 16:14:26 [ShaneM_]
- ... for example injecting a black right pointing triangle. need an alternate description.
- 16:15:02 [MichaelC]
- present+ Mary_Jo_Mueller, Bo_Campbell
- 16:15:04 [ShaneM_]
- ... there are ways per language to provide list markers text. localized alt text for them.
- 16:15:13 [ShaneM_]
- JN: why not use the same mechanism?
- 16:15:25 [ShaneM_]
- JC: because it is challenging. But it works.
- 16:15:31 [zcorpan]
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- 16:15:38 [zcorpan]
- where is the css/pf joint meeting?
- 16:15:38 [ShaneM_]
- astearns: There is alternate text? That's news to me.
- 16:15:48 [ShaneM_]
- JC: Tab has promised to put it into CSS4.
- 16:15:58 [ShaneM_]
- Bert: Well - that's not the same as accepted but okay.
- 16:16:10 [ShaneM_]
- astearns: probably put into pseudo elements draft.
- 16:16:19 [MichaelC]
- agenda: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/tp2014.html
- 16:16:22 [mhakkinen]
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- 16:16:38 [ShaneM_]
- JC: Flexbox - added text to clarify that it does not effect the order of speech. Not sure it addresses all the issues that we have.
- 16:16:51 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- richardschwerdtfeger has joined #pf
- 16:16:57 [astearns]
- flexbox section: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/#order-accessibility
- 16:16:59 [ShaneM_]
- astearns: It is an entire section about it.
- 16:17:38 [ShaneM_]
- RS: Are you involved in all the modules JC?
- 16:17:52 [ShaneM_]
- JC: I am not, but it is more effective to do the work within CSS than from without?
- 16:18:13 [ShaneM_]
- RS: Well - but there are a lot of modules and how can we find out when things are important to A11Y?
- 16:18:32 [ShaneM_]
- ... also, about testing, is there an API that can help us?
- 16:18:36 [ShaneM_]
- Bert: Not yet.
- 16:18:57 [fesch]
- q+
- 16:19:03 [ShaneM_]
- JC: There might be a way to have CSS generated content in the DOM. WebApps discussed it this week.
- 16:19:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- q?
- 16:19:14 [MichaelC]
- ack j
- 16:19:14 [Zakim]
- joanie, you wanted to say it might not be CSS's issue, but there are issues bigger than ATs and a11y API needs
- 16:19:46 [ShaneM_]
- joanie: This is not just about ATs. JC just mentioned selection.
- 16:20:23 [jcraig]
- q+ to say it would be nice to declare: from element, get pesudo-elements, and from those pseudo-elements, get the content text or object nodes
- 16:20:23 [ShaneM_]
- ... if someone uses CSS generated content to mark something important - it is not always exposed in the user agent.
- 16:20:40 [ShaneM_]
- ... I can't use the find operation to search for it.
- 16:20:44 [astearns]
- +1
- 16:21:02 [ShaneM_]
- Bert: It is our problem. The information needs to be in the DOM. There is a new module for DOM extensions. Not yet on TR
- 16:21:04 [jcraig]
- generated content alt property in CSS4: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0319.html
- 16:21:21 [Bert]
- -> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-pseudo/ pseudo-elements module
- 16:21:22 [jcraig]
- currently implemented as -webkit-alt in WebKit: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=120188
- 16:21:38 [ShaneM_]
- joanie: the selection problem might be solved by this as well.
- 16:22:02 [jongund]
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- 16:22:23 [ShaneM_]
- ... some screen readers do not control the navigation. Because there is good native support for navigation.
- 16:22:36 [MichaelC]
- present+ Simon_Pieters
- 16:22:55 [ShaneM_]
- ... for example a cursor down will not land on generated content. WebKit GTK caret navigation is used.
- 16:23:22 [ShaneM_]
- JC: If keyboard access can't get to it then the screen reader won't see it.
- 16:23:47 [ShaneM_]
- ... VoiceOver has multiple mavigation methods, but it would have missed it too.
- 16:23:49 [ShaneM_]
- q?
- 16:23:57 [MichaelC]
- ack f
- 16:24:15 [ShaneM_]
- FE: Transparency in colors. get computed style does not tell you what the actual color is if there is transparency.
- 16:24:21 [MichaelC]
- present+ Cynthia_Shelly
- 16:24:36 [JF]
- Q+
- 16:24:38 [Zakim]
- +Matt_King
- 16:24:40 [ShaneM_]
- ... calculating contrast values is tricky in this case because the value is not in there.
- 16:24:50 [MichaelC]
- present+ Matt_King
- 16:24:58 [ShaneM_]
- astearns: we are adding blend modes that will make this even more complex
- 16:25:14 [ShaneM_]
- fesch: isn't transparency new in CSS?
- 16:25:28 [ShaneM_]
- Bert: No - there are just changes that are being made with extensions.
- 16:25:41 [ShaneM_]
- JN: no difference with backgrounds and gradients
- 16:25:47 [ShaneM_]
- fesch: but we need to do SOMETHING right?
- 16:25:54 [ShaneM_]
- JN: build better test tools.
- 16:26:11 [janina_]
- janina_ has joined #pf
- 16:26:15 [ShaneM_]
- JC: Media Controls - there is a reduce transparency and reduce motion setting on some Apple platforms now.
- 16:26:35 [ShaneM_]
- ... a distinction for a preference related media feature. allows the page to know things that the user prefers
- 16:26:52 [ShaneM_]
- ... then the media author can query those preferences and possibly modify their output
- 16:27:02 [ShaneM_]
- ... puts the onus on the author
- 16:27:23 [ShaneM_]
- astearns: maybe not. you could do something by default as an author. user style sheet
- 16:27:40 [ShaneM_]
- JC: well, you could effect the default style sheet too. But do you want to do it across the board?
- 16:28:06 [ShaneM_]
- ... there are a lot of places where motion might help the user.
- 16:28:06 [JF]
- ack JF
- 16:28:49 [ShaneM_]
- ... but it is important to let users make those choices.
- 16:29:00 [ShaneM_]
- ... it should not be across the board.
- 16:29:18 [ShaneM_]
- astearns: back to the actual display color problem. there are things that complicate the actual displayed color.
- 16:29:22 [MichaelC]
- present+ Elika_Etimad
- 16:29:23 [zcorpan]
- zcorpan has joined #pf
- 16:29:34 [ShaneM_]
- ... you are going to have to calculate it harder.
- 16:29:52 [ShaneM_]
- ... we cannot expose colors for various security reasons (like visited links).
- 16:30:25 [jcraig]
- ack me
- 16:30:25 [Zakim]
- jcraig, you wanted to say it would be nice to declare: from element, get pesudo-elements, and from those pseudo-elements, get the content text or object nodes
- 16:30:25 [MichaelC]
- present+ Steve_Zilles
- 16:30:31 [ShaneM_]
- JN: visited link color is a foreground issue. we are talking about background stuff.
- 16:30:50 [ShaneM_]
- Cyns: But background might need to effect foreground for contrast reasons.
- 16:31:17 [ShaneM_]
- JC: might need scripting access
- 16:31:27 [ShaneM_]
- astearns: It should be covered in the pseudo elements draft.
- 16:31:58 [janina___]
- janina___ has joined #pf
- 16:32:14 [ShaneM_]
- JC: will this solve your problem joanie?
- 16:32:37 [ShaneM_]
- joanie: no - but I am not convinced this is a CSS issue. I want to be able to have a caret in a pseudo-element.
- 16:32:49 [ShaneM_]
- ... it is probably a rendering engine issue.
- 16:32:59 [ShaneM_]
- JC: Yes - rendering engine.
- 16:33:27 [ShaneM_]
- Cyns: Your user doesn't know whether the text is a pseudo element or not
- 16:33:51 [ShaneM_]
- RS: We need it for A11Y test tools. If the information is not exposed, we can't test it.
- 16:34:06 [ShaneM_]
- JC: That's not enough of a reason to add a DOM API.
- 16:34:30 [ShaneM_]
- RS: We need this stuff to make it possible for testing.
- 16:34:41 [ShaneM_]
- JC: We have platform tools to test this now.
- 16:35:37 [ShaneM_]
- RS: We are testing web content... We want to test through the DOM
- 16:35:38 [jcraig]
- q+
- 16:36:05 [ShaneM_]
- JN: It is possible to do this.
- 16:36:38 [jcraig]
- ack me
- 16:37:31 [ShaneM_]
- JC: the testing tool aspect is a benefit, not a reason. pseudo elements and its DOM will be a help.
- 16:38:12 [ShaneM_]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 16:38:12 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Suite1234, Bryan_Garaventa, Matt_King
- 16:40:02 [ShaneM_]
- (quick aside while we reorganize the room)
- 16:40:37 [ShaneM_]
- RS: The image and alt text is not necessarily exposed to the A11Y API
- 16:40:46 [jcraig]
- jcraig has joined #pf
- 16:40:48 [ShaneM_]
- ... developers want to use the latest, greatest thing.
- 16:41:03 [ShaneM_]
- ... it is not yet in the browsers for the A11Y tree.
- 16:41:08 [ShaneM_]
- JC: What's the alternative?
- 16:41:19 [ShaneM_]
- RS: We get the objects in the CSS object tree.
- 16:41:35 [ShaneM_]
- JN: If the browser is not mapping it, then no one can use it, so why are you shipping it?
- 16:42:11 [ShaneM_]
- JC: The issue is that the browser supports it but the A11Y API / tree may not yet expose it.
- 16:42:12 [jcraig]
- s/What's the alternative?/What's the alternative? If you only have backwards-compatility, you never make any progress forward./
- 16:42:30 [jcraig]
- q+
- 16:44:04 [ShaneM_]
- RS: described the way that A11Y testing is done.
- 16:44:09 [jcraig]
- q?
- 16:44:17 [ShaneM_]
- ... development teams are testing to content
- 16:44:28 [ShaneM_]
- JN: It should be in the A11Y Tree.
- 16:44:54 [ShaneM_]
- Cyns: If it doesn't work in AT then it doesn't pass accessibility.
- 16:45:00 [MichaelC]
- ack j
- 16:45:11 [ShaneM_]
- JC: let's get back to the CSS part of this discussion
- 16:45:30 [ShaneM_]
- ... Rich is concerned that new CSS features are not getting into the A11Y tree as quickly as they are into the rendering engine.
- 16:46:10 [ShaneM_]
- JS: I heard that he needs to be able to rely upon finding when feature are used.
- 16:46:46 [ShaneM_]
- JC: WebKit and Chrome are exposing this information at the platform level. Redirect some of your developers do finding the information using the platform level tools.
- 16:47:25 [ShaneM_]
- Cyns: You could add a WCAG test to check to see if there are unsupported things in use from the CSS.
- 16:47:36 [ShaneM_]
- RS: We are not parsing the CSS. Are you?
- 16:47:41 [jcraig]
- s/WebKit and Chrome are exposing this information at the platform level./WebKit is exposing this information in the native web dev tools. Chrome has committed to do this in a future release./
- 16:48:01 [ShaneM_]
- JN: You can look at the CSS object tree.
- 16:48:32 [liam_]
- liam_ has joined #pf
- 16:49:03 [joanie]
- q?
- 16:49:28 [jcraig]
- q+ to mention navindex and nth-fragment()
- 16:49:28 [joanie]
- q+
- 16:49:29 [yatil]
- yatil has joined #PF
- 16:49:45 [jcraig]
- ack jo
- 16:49:47 [ShaneM_]
- Cyns: Generated text is important to A11Y. I don't care if it is in the DOM or not. I care that ctrl-f can find it, and that I can copy and paste it. The user does not know if it is generated.
- 16:50:20 [mhakkinen]
- +1 to Cyns
- 16:50:22 [ShaneM_]
- joanie: Is there any use case where CSS generated content should not be selectable / navigable? Or is it something that happened?
- 16:50:51 [ShaneM_]
- Bert: Historically the CSS generated content was decorative and you might not want to be in the selectable text.
- 16:50:59 [jcraig]
- q+ to mention user-selectable (?)
- 16:51:12 [ShaneM_]
- Cyns: list styles are an example of something where if should be exposed.
- 16:51:24 [astearns]
- (just sent a note to www-style about adding selection and search requirements to the content property)
- 16:51:29 [jcraig]
- ack me
- 16:51:29 [Zakim]
- jcraig, you wanted to mention navindex and nth-fragment() and to mention user-selectable (?)
- 16:51:36 [ShaneM_]
- astearns: generated stuff could be help - a picture that pops up. Not accessible.
- 16:52:01 [ShaneM_]
- JC: navindex is problematic
- 16:52:09 [kurosawa]
- nav-index http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui/#keyboard
- 16:52:26 [ShaneM_]
- Bert: this is in the UI module now
- 16:52:45 [ShaneM_]
- s/astearns:/fesch:/
- 16:52:48 [zcorpan]
- q+
- 16:53:47 [MichaelC]
- ack z
- 16:53:56 [ShaneM_]
- JC: talk about how to have navindex integrate better
- 16:53:59 [jcraig]
- q+ to mention nth-fragment() and to mention user-selectable (?)
- 16:54:24 [ShaneM_]
- Simon: this is known in the HTML group. They are looking into possibly scoping tabindex.
- 16:54:32 [ShaneM_]
- Cyns: Having something in CSS is good as well.
- 16:54:52 [ShaneM_]
- Matt: Please don't do anything like requiring 'ctrl-tab'. Keep it simple
- 16:55:02 [ShaneM_]
- Cyns: Why?
- 16:55:10 [ShaneM_]
- JC: because the user would not expect it.
- 16:55:20 [ShaneM_]
- fesch: how do you get out of a sub-area then?
- 16:55:30 [ShaneM_]
- JC: you navigate off the end?
- 16:56:00 [ShaneM_]
- Matt: Trapping is a separate topic (e.g., in an overlay)
- 16:56:25 [jcraig]
- ack me
- 16:56:25 [Zakim]
- jcraig, you wanted to mention nth-fragment() and to mention user-selectable (?)
- 16:56:44 [ShaneM_]
- JC: glad to hear navindex scoping is being worked on.
- 16:57:31 [ShaneM_]
- ... user select none - the ability to disable user selection via CSS
- 16:57:46 [kurosawa]
- https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/user-select
- 16:57:48 [ShaneM_]
- Bert: I don't know what this is
- 16:58:31 [ShaneM_]
- It is not a standard property. It is not in any W3C specification.
- 16:58:41 [ShaneM_]
- Simon: we need to specify it if everyone implements it.
- 16:59:16 [ShaneM_]
- JC: If there is a need for this it should be in the DOM
- 16:59:39 [ShaneM_]
- Cyns: is Outline: none on the list? It is a WCAG failure.