IRC log of pf on 2014-10-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:37:33 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #pf
15:37:33 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/31-pf-irc
15:37:35 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs member
15:37:35 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #pf
15:37:37 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
15:37:37 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PF()11:00AM scheduled to start 37 minutes ago
15:37:38 [trackbot]
Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
15:37:38 [trackbot]
Date: 31 October 2014
15:37:39 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, do not start a new log
15:45:37 [kurosawa]
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15:51:01 [jamesn]
jamesn has joined #pf
15:51:54 [MichaelC]
-> http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-pf-minutes Minutes from yesterday
15:54:09 [jamesn]
jamesn has changed the topic to: PF F2F at TPAC; Friday 31 October beginning 16:00Z; http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/tp2014
15:55:53 [Zakim]
WAI_PF()11:00AM has now started
15:56:00 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.738.aaaa
15:56:25 [jamesn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:56:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.650.738.aaaa
15:56:43 [TF]
TF has joined #pf
15:57:16 [bgaraventa1979]
bgaraventa1979 has joined #pf
15:57:38 [Bert]
Bert has joined #pf
15:57:39 [astearns]
astearns has joined #pf
15:57:43 [bgaraventa1979]
zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
15:57:43 [Zakim]
sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not see a party named 'Bryan_Garaventa'
15:57:43 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #pf
15:58:04 [bgaraventa1979]
zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
15:58:04 [Zakim]
+Bryan_Garaventa; got it
15:58:20 [bgaraventa1979]
zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
15:58:20 [Zakim]
ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
15:58:37 [bgaraventa1979]
would it be alright if I dialed in?
15:58:49 [liam_]
liam_ has joined #pf
15:59:55 [Zakim]
-Bryan_Garaventa
15:59:56 [Zakim]
WAI_PF()11:00AM has ended
15:59:56 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.650.738.aaaa, Bryan_Garaventa
16:00:18 [Zakim]
WAI_PF()11:00AM has now started
16:00:23 [MichaelC]
zakim, call suite1234
16:00:23 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
16:00:25 [Zakim]
+James_Nurthen
16:00:28 [fesch]
fesch has joined #pf
16:00:35 [ShaneM]
present+ ShaneM
16:00:44 [bgaraventa1979]
please do, it rang but no one on the other end
16:01:22 [MichaelC]
zakim, call suite1234
16:01:22 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
16:01:23 [Zakim]
+Suite1234
16:02:00 [Zakim]
-James_Nurthen
16:02:42 [Zakim]
+Bryan_Garaventa
16:05:18 [ShaneM_]
ShaneM_ has joined #pf
16:05:26 [MichaelC]
present: Janina_Sajka, James_Nurthen, Michael_Cooper, Joanie_Diggs, John_Foliot, Shane_McCarron, Fred_Esch, Bert_Bost, Markku_Hakkinen, Kurosawa_Takeshi, Alan_Stearns
16:05:34 [ShaneM_]
ScribeNick: ShaneM_
16:05:46 [ShaneM_]
zakim, who is here?
16:05:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Suite1234, Bryan_Garaventa
16:05:47 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ShaneM_, fesch, liam_, ShaneM, astearns, Bert, bgaraventa1979, TF, jamesn, kurosawa, Zakim, RRSAgent, MichaelC, clown, janina__, scott_gonzalez, janina, joanie,
16:05:47 [Zakim]
... trackbot
16:05:55 [ShaneM_]
TOPIC: CSS Overview
16:06:13 [MichaelC]
present+ Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:06:33 [ShaneM_]
JS: Our desire is to understand how CSS is thinking about CSS and its connection to the complex ox of specs
16:06:38 [MichaelC]
chair: Janina_Sajka
16:06:53 [MichaelC]
meeting: PF TPAC 2014 Face to Face DAy 2
16:07:02 [MichaelC]
meeting: PF TPAC 2014 Face to Face Day 2
16:07:11 [ShaneM_]
JS: There are probably some questions from us. But maybe CSS people could talk about context.
16:07:24 [MichaelC]
present+ James_Craig
16:07:35 [bgaraventa1979]
is the number for muting my line 61?
16:07:41 [ShaneM_]
RS: What we are seeing is a couple of things. We have the ability to inject content into a page with CSS.
16:07:53 [bgaraventa1979]
thnaks
16:07:56 [ShaneM_]
... there are a lot of modules and we are unsure how they all hook together.
16:07:58 [fesch_]
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16:08:01 [MichaelC]
present+ Jon_Gunderson
16:08:26 [ShaneM_]
... A11Y relies on the DOM. If CSS can inject things then it can confuse the A11Y efforts.
16:08:41 [ShaneM_]
... second we are looking at flexbox. flexbox changes the flow of the page.
16:08:57 [jcraig]
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16:08:58 [ShaneM_]
... navigation via keyboard may not follow the flow of the flexbox
16:09:07 [ShaneM_]
... should flexbox change the keyboard navigation?
16:09:19 [jcraig]
q+
16:09:51 [TF]
zakim, TF is JF
16:09:51 [Zakim]
sorry, TF, I do not recognize a party named 'TF'
16:10:07 [ShaneM_]
FE: If someone uses angular, for example, to change things and display gets changed to none for some things, then there could be issues. are there events?
16:10:11 [TF]
zakim, TF is now JF
16:10:11 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'TF is now JF', TF
16:10:18 [ShaneM_]
JC: There are platform events.
16:10:39 [JF]
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16:10:54 [ShaneM_]
???: The question is how does angular change the display mode. There are mutation events.
16:11:18 [ShaneM_]
JC: No one uses those though. BUt the rendering engine will do something sensible and raise events.
16:11:18 [astearns]
s/???/astearns/
16:11:49 [ShaneM_]
FE: It is not clear that things always get done correctly.
16:12:10 [jcraig]
ack me
16:12:20 [ShaneM_]
JC: Some changes might not be obviosly important to the engine - like changing a class.
16:12:43 [bcampbell]
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16:12:47 [ShaneM_]
... most of the A11Y tools work with the view layer.
16:13:08 [bcampbell]
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16:13:17 [ShaneM_]
JC: The text content that is generated by CSS is available to the rendering engine so it is available to AT on most platforms.
16:13:19 [bcampbell]
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16:13:34 [joanie]
q+ To say it might not be CSS's issue, but there are issues bigger than ATs and a11y API needs
16:13:39 [ShaneM_]
... And it is accessible to the DOM.
16:13:41 [ShaneM_]
q?
16:13:59 [ShaneM_]
... we have asked for alt on injected content, and it was provided.
16:14:26 [ShaneM_]
... for example injecting a black right pointing triangle. need an alternate description.
16:15:02 [MichaelC]
present+ Mary_Jo_Mueller, Bo_Campbell
16:15:04 [ShaneM_]
... there are ways per language to provide list markers text. localized alt text for them.
16:15:13 [ShaneM_]
JN: why not use the same mechanism?
16:15:25 [ShaneM_]
JC: because it is challenging. But it works.
16:15:31 [zcorpan]
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16:15:38 [zcorpan]
where is the css/pf joint meeting?
16:15:38 [ShaneM_]
astearns: There is alternate text? That's news to me.
16:15:48 [ShaneM_]
JC: Tab has promised to put it into CSS4.
16:15:58 [ShaneM_]
Bert: Well - that's not the same as accepted but okay.
16:16:10 [ShaneM_]
astearns: probably put into pseudo elements draft.
16:16:19 [MichaelC]
agenda: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/tp2014.html
16:16:22 [mhakkinen]
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16:16:38 [ShaneM_]
JC: Flexbox - added text to clarify that it does not effect the order of speech. Not sure it addresses all the issues that we have.
16:16:51 [richardschwerdtfeger]
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16:16:57 [astearns]
flexbox section: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-flexbox/#order-accessibility
16:16:59 [ShaneM_]
astearns: It is an entire section about it.
16:17:38 [ShaneM_]
RS: Are you involved in all the modules JC?
16:17:52 [ShaneM_]
JC: I am not, but it is more effective to do the work within CSS than from without?
16:18:13 [ShaneM_]
RS: Well - but there are a lot of modules and how can we find out when things are important to A11Y?
16:18:32 [ShaneM_]
... also, about testing, is there an API that can help us?
16:18:36 [ShaneM_]
Bert: Not yet.
16:18:57 [fesch]
q+
16:19:03 [ShaneM_]
JC: There might be a way to have CSS generated content in the DOM. WebApps discussed it this week.
16:19:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
q?
16:19:14 [MichaelC]
ack j
16:19:14 [Zakim]
joanie, you wanted to say it might not be CSS's issue, but there are issues bigger than ATs and a11y API needs
16:19:46 [ShaneM_]
joanie: This is not just about ATs. JC just mentioned selection.
16:20:23 [jcraig]
q+ to say it would be nice to declare: from element, get pesudo-elements, and from those pseudo-elements, get the content text or object nodes
16:20:23 [ShaneM_]
... if someone uses CSS generated content to mark something important - it is not always exposed in the user agent.
16:20:40 [ShaneM_]
... I can't use the find operation to search for it.
16:20:44 [astearns]
+1
16:21:02 [ShaneM_]
Bert: It is our problem. The information needs to be in the DOM. There is a new module for DOM extensions. Not yet on TR
16:21:04 [jcraig]
generated content alt property in CSS4: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0319.html
16:21:21 [Bert]
-> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-pseudo/ pseudo-elements module
16:21:22 [jcraig]
currently implemented as -webkit-alt in WebKit: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=120188
16:21:38 [ShaneM_]
joanie: the selection problem might be solved by this as well.
16:22:02 [jongund]
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16:22:23 [ShaneM_]
... some screen readers do not control the navigation. Because there is good native support for navigation.
16:22:36 [MichaelC]
present+ Simon_Pieters
16:22:55 [ShaneM_]
... for example a cursor down will not land on generated content. WebKit GTK caret navigation is used.
16:23:22 [ShaneM_]
JC: If keyboard access can't get to it then the screen reader won't see it.
16:23:47 [ShaneM_]
... VoiceOver has multiple mavigation methods, but it would have missed it too.
16:23:49 [ShaneM_]
q?
16:23:57 [MichaelC]
ack f
16:24:15 [ShaneM_]
FE: Transparency in colors. get computed style does not tell you what the actual color is if there is transparency.
16:24:21 [MichaelC]
present+ Cynthia_Shelly
16:24:36 [JF]
Q+
16:24:38 [Zakim]
+Matt_King
16:24:40 [ShaneM_]
... calculating contrast values is tricky in this case because the value is not in there.
16:24:50 [MichaelC]
present+ Matt_King
16:24:58 [ShaneM_]
astearns: we are adding blend modes that will make this even more complex
16:25:14 [ShaneM_]
fesch: isn't transparency new in CSS?
16:25:28 [ShaneM_]
Bert: No - there are just changes that are being made with extensions.
16:25:41 [ShaneM_]
JN: no difference with backgrounds and gradients
16:25:47 [ShaneM_]
fesch: but we need to do SOMETHING right?
16:25:54 [ShaneM_]
JN: build better test tools.
16:26:11 [janina_]
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16:26:15 [ShaneM_]
JC: Media Controls - there is a reduce transparency and reduce motion setting on some Apple platforms now.
16:26:35 [ShaneM_]
... a distinction for a preference related media feature. allows the page to know things that the user prefers
16:26:52 [ShaneM_]
... then the media author can query those preferences and possibly modify their output
16:27:02 [ShaneM_]
... puts the onus on the author
16:27:23 [ShaneM_]
astearns: maybe not. you could do something by default as an author. user style sheet
16:27:40 [ShaneM_]
JC: well, you could effect the default style sheet too. But do you want to do it across the board?
16:28:06 [ShaneM_]
... there are a lot of places where motion might help the user.
16:28:06 [JF]
ack JF
16:28:49 [ShaneM_]
... but it is important to let users make those choices.
16:29:00 [ShaneM_]
... it should not be across the board.
16:29:18 [ShaneM_]
astearns: back to the actual display color problem. there are things that complicate the actual displayed color.
16:29:22 [MichaelC]
present+ Elika_Etimad
16:29:23 [zcorpan]
zcorpan has joined #pf
16:29:34 [ShaneM_]
... you are going to have to calculate it harder.
16:29:52 [ShaneM_]
... we cannot expose colors for various security reasons (like visited links).
16:30:25 [jcraig]
ack me
16:30:25 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to say it would be nice to declare: from element, get pesudo-elements, and from those pseudo-elements, get the content text or object nodes
16:30:25 [MichaelC]
present+ Steve_Zilles
16:30:31 [ShaneM_]
JN: visited link color is a foreground issue. we are talking about background stuff.
16:30:50 [ShaneM_]
Cyns: But background might need to effect foreground for contrast reasons.
16:31:17 [ShaneM_]
JC: might need scripting access
16:31:27 [ShaneM_]
astearns: It should be covered in the pseudo elements draft.
16:31:58 [janina___]
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16:32:14 [ShaneM_]
JC: will this solve your problem joanie?
16:32:37 [ShaneM_]
joanie: no - but I am not convinced this is a CSS issue. I want to be able to have a caret in a pseudo-element.
16:32:49 [ShaneM_]
... it is probably a rendering engine issue.
16:32:59 [ShaneM_]
JC: Yes - rendering engine.
16:33:27 [ShaneM_]
Cyns: Your user doesn't know whether the text is a pseudo element or not
16:33:51 [ShaneM_]
RS: We need it for A11Y test tools. If the information is not exposed, we can't test it.
16:34:06 [ShaneM_]
JC: That's not enough of a reason to add a DOM API.
16:34:30 [ShaneM_]
RS: We need this stuff to make it possible for testing.
16:34:41 [ShaneM_]
JC: We have platform tools to test this now.
16:35:37 [ShaneM_]
RS: We are testing web content... We want to test through the DOM
16:35:38 [jcraig]
q+
16:36:05 [ShaneM_]
JN: It is possible to do this.
16:36:38 [jcraig]
ack me
16:37:31 [ShaneM_]
JC: the testing tool aspect is a benefit, not a reason. pseudo elements and its DOM will be a help.
16:38:12 [ShaneM_]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:38:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Suite1234, Bryan_Garaventa, Matt_King
16:40:02 [ShaneM_]
(quick aside while we reorganize the room)
16:40:37 [ShaneM_]
RS: The image and alt text is not necessarily exposed to the A11Y API
16:40:46 [jcraig]
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16:40:48 [ShaneM_]
... developers want to use the latest, greatest thing.
16:41:03 [ShaneM_]
... it is not yet in the browsers for the A11Y tree.
16:41:08 [ShaneM_]
JC: What's the alternative?
16:41:19 [ShaneM_]
RS: We get the objects in the CSS object tree.
16:41:35 [ShaneM_]
JN: If the browser is not mapping it, then no one can use it, so why are you shipping it?
16:42:11 [ShaneM_]
JC: The issue is that the browser supports it but the A11Y API / tree may not yet expose it.
16:42:12 [jcraig]
s/What's the alternative?/What's the alternative? If you only have backwards-compatility, you never make any progress forward./
16:42:30 [jcraig]
q+
16:44:04 [ShaneM_]
RS: described the way that A11Y testing is done.
16:44:09 [jcraig]
q?
16:44:17 [ShaneM_]
... development teams are testing to content
16:44:28 [ShaneM_]
JN: It should be in the A11Y Tree.
16:44:54 [ShaneM_]
Cyns: If it doesn't work in AT then it doesn't pass accessibility.
16:45:00 [MichaelC]
ack j
16:45:11 [ShaneM_]
JC: let's get back to the CSS part of this discussion
16:45:30 [ShaneM_]
... Rich is concerned that new CSS features are not getting into the A11Y tree as quickly as they are into the rendering engine.
16:46:10 [ShaneM_]
JS: I heard that he needs to be able to rely upon finding when feature are used.
16:46:46 [ShaneM_]
JC: WebKit and Chrome are exposing this information at the platform level. Redirect some of your developers do finding the information using the platform level tools.
16:47:25 [ShaneM_]
Cyns: You could add a WCAG test to check to see if there are unsupported things in use from the CSS.
16:47:36 [ShaneM_]
RS: We are not parsing the CSS. Are you?
16:47:41 [jcraig]
s/WebKit and Chrome are exposing this information at the platform level./WebKit is exposing this information in the native web dev tools. Chrome has committed to do this in a future release./
16:48:01 [ShaneM_]
JN: You can look at the CSS object tree.
16:48:32 [liam_]
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16:49:03 [joanie]
q?
16:49:28 [jcraig]
q+ to mention navindex and nth-fragment()
16:49:28 [joanie]
q+
16:49:29 [yatil]
yatil has joined #PF
16:49:45 [jcraig]
ack jo
16:49:47 [ShaneM_]
Cyns: Generated text is important to A11Y. I don't care if it is in the DOM or not. I care that ctrl-f can find it, and that I can copy and paste it. The user does not know if it is generated.
16:50:20 [mhakkinen]
+1 to Cyns
16:50:22 [ShaneM_]
joanie: Is there any use case where CSS generated content should not be selectable / navigable? Or is it something that happened?
16:50:51 [ShaneM_]
Bert: Historically the CSS generated content was decorative and you might not want to be in the selectable text.
16:50:59 [jcraig]
q+ to mention user-selectable (?)
16:51:12 [ShaneM_]
Cyns: list styles are an example of something where if should be exposed.
16:51:24 [astearns]
(just sent a note to www-style about adding selection and search requirements to the content property)
16:51:29 [jcraig]
ack me
16:51:29 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to mention navindex and nth-fragment() and to mention user-selectable (?)
16:51:36 [ShaneM_]
astearns: generated stuff could be help - a picture that pops up. Not accessible.
16:52:01 [ShaneM_]
JC: navindex is problematic
16:52:09 [kurosawa]
nav-index http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui/#keyboard
16:52:26 [ShaneM_]
Bert: this is in the UI module now
16:52:45 [ShaneM_]
s/astearns:/fesch:/
16:52:48 [zcorpan]
q+
16:53:47 [MichaelC]
ack z
16:53:56 [ShaneM_]
JC: talk about how to have navindex integrate better
16:53:59 [jcraig]
q+ to mention nth-fragment() and to mention user-selectable (?)
16:54:24 [ShaneM_]
Simon: this is known in the HTML group. They are looking into possibly scoping tabindex.
16:54:32 [ShaneM_]
Cyns: Having something in CSS is good as well.
16:54:52 [ShaneM_]
Matt: Please don't do anything like requiring 'ctrl-tab'. Keep it simple
16:55:02 [ShaneM_]
Cyns: Why?
16:55:10 [ShaneM_]
JC: because the user would not expect it.
16:55:20 [ShaneM_]
fesch: how do you get out of a sub-area then?
16:55:30 [ShaneM_]
JC: you navigate off the end?
16:56:00 [ShaneM_]
Matt: Trapping is a separate topic (e.g., in an overlay)
16:56:25 [jcraig]
ack me
16:56:25 [Zakim]
jcraig, you wanted to mention nth-fragment() and to mention user-selectable (?)
16:56:44 [ShaneM_]
JC: glad to hear navindex scoping is being worked on.
16:57:31 [ShaneM_]
... user select none - the ability to disable user selection via CSS
16:57:46 [kurosawa]
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/user-select
16:57:48 [ShaneM_]
Bert: I don't know what this is
16:58:31 [ShaneM_]
It is not a standard property. It is not in any W3C specification.
16:58:41 [ShaneM_]
Simon: we need to specify it if everyone implements it.
16:59:16 [ShaneM_]
JC: If there is a need for this it should be in the DOM
16:59:39 [ShaneM_]
Cyns: is Outline: none on the list? It is a WCAG failure.