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15:53:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-sysapps-irc
15:54:32 <jhund> zakim, call Sequoia
15:54:32 <Zakim> sorry, jhund, I don't know what conference this is
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16:02:05 <JonathanJ1> Present+ Jonghong_Jeon
16:02:40 <jcdufourd> Present+ JeanClaude_Dufourd
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16:03:23 <jhund> Present+ Johannes_Hund
16:03:40 <wonsuk_> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
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16:03:50 <aizu_> Present+ Hiroyuki_Aizu
16:04:00 <lgombos> Present+ Laszlo_Gombos
16:04:03 <spoussa_> Present+ Sakari_Poussa
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16:06:18 <tomoyuki> +Present Tomoyuki_Shimizu
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16:10:09 <jungkees> Present+ Jungkee_Song
16:11:57 <anssik> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
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16:14:23 <terri> Present+ Terri_Oda
16:15:50 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:15:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1
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16:17:54 <JonathanJ1> Topic - Agenda bashing
16:18:23 <JonathanJ1>  https://www.w3.org/wiki/System_Applications:_5th_F2F_Meeting_Agenda
16:20:47 <jhund> zakim, bye
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16:22:11 <terri> zakim, list conferences
16:22:11 <kenneth_> Present+ Kenneth_Christiansen
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16:27:46 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:27:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1
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16:28:53 <Claes> Present+ Claes_Nilsson
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16:29:41 <dsr> scribe: Claes
16:29:50 <dsr> scribenick: Claes
16:30:01 <dsr> Meeting: SysApps Face to face
16:32:05 <Claes> Lazlo: Updated to integrate with Service Workers
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16:33:01 <jungkees> q+
16:33:26 <Claes> Consensus to publish all SysApps specifications as Public Working Drafts
16:33:46 <dsr> ack jungkees
16:34:46 <Claes> Jungkee:Basically an alarms API and allows scedulign tasks
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16:35:08 <Claes> .. Events through Service Wroker
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16:35:48 <Claes> .. Partial interface under ServiceWorkerRegistration
16:36:32 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, make minutes
16:36:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1
16:37:59 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent,  make  logs member-visible
16:38:12 <Claes> ..Registers events to occur after a certain time period trough ServiceWorker
16:40:28 <JonathanJ1> Task Scheduler API - http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/web-alarms/
16:41:29 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:41:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1
16:42:36 <Claes> .. Client application uses the ServiceWorkerClinet interface to getbthe event
16:43:05 <Claes> s /ServiceWorkerClinet/ServiceWorkerClient
16:43:33 <Claes> s /trough/through/
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16:44:33 <tomoyuki> Present+ Tomoyuki_Shimizu
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16:45:16 <Claes> Wonzuk: One issue is status of the Service Worker specification
16:46:12 <Claes> jungkee: We don't have to wait to go to last call. Task Scheduler do not have to be updated
16:46:25 <Claes> s /so/does/
16:47:09 <Claes> We don't yet have an implementation of the Task Scheduler API
16:47:27 <anssik> q+ to ask if we're following the 2014 Process?
16:48:25 <anssik> [in the 2014 Process the Last Call and Candidate Recommendation have been collapsed together]
16:48:43 <Claes> Kenneth: Waiting for Service Worker prior to implementation
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16:50:01 <Claes> WHAT WG is also integrating with Service Worker in Notification API
16:50:02 <wonsuk_> https://notifications.spec.whatwg.org/
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16:50:57 <dsr> ack anssi
16:51:06 <Claes> Same kind of integration as Task Scheduler
16:52:06 <anssik> ack anssik
16:53:47 <JonathanJ1> W3C Process 2014 - http://www.w3.org/2014/Process-20140801
16:53:50 <Claes> Discussion when go to last call
16:54:47 <lgombos> q+ to ask for other implementations
16:56:06 <JonathanJ1> http://www.w3.org/2014/Process-20140801/#Reports
16:57:29 <lgombos> .. disacussion about which process to use for the spec
16:57:30 <anssik> the 2014 Process omits LC http://www.w3.org/2014/Process-20140801/#recs-and-notes so if we opt-in for the 2014 Process then we should publish WDs until we satisfy this requirement: "must document how adequate implementation experience will be demonstrated"
16:57:46 <Claes> Proposed to republish updated WD after TPAC. Then we will have discussion on e-mail whether we will bring to last call/CR.
16:57:54 <anssik> the definition of adequate impl experience is up to the group to decide AFAIK, often it is two independent imps
16:57:59 <anssik> s/imps/impls/
16:58:14 <lgombos> s/disacussion/discussion
16:58:48 <Claes> RESOLUTION: Adapt new process. republish updated WD after TPAC. Then we will have discussion on e-mail whether we will bring to last call/CR.
16:59:51 <Claes> s /republish/Republish/
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17:00:52 <anssik> the editor should add this boilerplate to the Status of the Document: "This document is governed by the 1 August 2014 W3C Process Document."
17:02:33 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:02:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1
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17:03:59 <wonsuk_> q?
17:04:10 <Claes> Action Dave: Check which groups that have adapted the new process
17:04:10 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
17:04:15 <dsr> ack lgombos
17:07:17 <spoussa_> Crosswalk
17:07:45 <JonathanJ1> https://crosswalk-project.org/
17:07:51 <Claes> Need 2 implementations. Intel may implement in Crosswalk. Should ask Mozilla on implementation in FFOS.
17:08:09 <dsr> Topic: Contacts manager API
17:08:29 <Claes> Action Wonsuk: Ask Mozilla on implementation in FFOS.
17:08:29 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
17:09:01 <dsr> http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/contacts-manager-api/
17:09:04 <Claes> Subject: Contacts Manager API
17:09:04 <JonathanJ1> trackbot, associate this channel with #sysapps
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17:10:12 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:10:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1
17:10:49 <Claes> We don't need to consider if this APi should be based on Data Store API or not as the latter is withdrawn.
17:11:27 <zolkis> we need to experience with implementation. Bluetooth PBAP should be supported.
17:11:29 <Claes> http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/contacts-manager-api/
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17:12:28 <Claes> Similar to FFOS Contacts Manager API
17:12:36 <Claes> Implementation plans?
17:13:12 <Claes> Kenneth: Lower prio than Task Scheduler. No current plan.
17:13:28 <JonathanJ1> trackbot, start meeting
17:13:28 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
17:14:15 <anssik> http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/contacts-manager-api/#security-and-privacy-considerations suggests the current API is not compatible with the Web's security model, thus no browser vendor is able to implement this API
17:14:52 <Claes_> Claes_ has joined #sysapps
17:14:54 <dsr> Christophe Dumez has left Samsung and should be dropped as an editor for Contact Manager API,
17:15:37 <dsr> and replaced by Mahesh Kulkarni (Samsung), see task scheduler spec
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17:16:47 <jungkees> The API discussion has been done a lot, but we still have to discuss how this spec and the others will run in a security context which we have to clarify.
17:17:23 <anssik> q+
17:17:41 <spoussa_> q?
17:17:42 <dsr> ack anssik
17:17:43 <Claes_> RESOLUTION: After revisit Security and Privacy consideration we will seek consensus for next step
17:18:14 <JonathanJ1> trackbot, status
17:18:14 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
17:20:28 <Claes_> Anssi: Many SysApps APIs are not implementable in normal browser context due to security issues
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17:20:58 <Claes_> .. Should the WG spend stime on this meeting to discuss this issue?
17:21:09 <Claes_> s /stime/time/
17:22:15 <spoussa_> q+
17:23:36 <dsr> Anssi proposes we move the agenda item on trust & permissions earlier as it is important for the API discussions.
17:23:38 <Claes_> Wonsuk will check if we can have the discussion on Trust and permissions for Web applications earlier in the agenda.
17:23:46 <ArtB> -> https://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/60 https://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/60 ; status = CLOSED :-(
17:24:07 <ArtB> hmmm; Issue-60 is https://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/60
17:24:39 <ArtB> "ISSUE-60: Chapter 7 should be moved to Github to encourage and facilitate contributions to its evolution"
17:25:07 <ArtB> ooops; so sorry for wrong channel!
17:25:56 <spoussa_> ArtB: welcome!
17:26:33 <JonathanJ1> trackbot, init
17:26:39 <zolkis> q+
17:27:14 <zolkis> q-
17:27:18 <Claes_> 15 min break, then discussion on Trust and permissions for Web applications'
17:27:19 <dsr> we will break for 14 minutes
17:27:47 <JonathanJ1> trackbot, status
17:27:47 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
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17:29:04 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:29:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1
17:29:22 <zolkis> as a general comment to the Contact, Messaging and Telephony API's: we are interested not only in one system contact manager, or message store, or modem, but also want to handle the contacts, messages and calls coming from devices paired via Bluetooth PBAP, MAP and HFP profiles. We need to consider these use cases in the specifications, or otherwise make them forward compatible with these requirements.
17:29:26 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, make logs public
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17:42:30 <dsr> Topic: Trust and Permissions
17:43:17 <dsr> Paris meeting: http://www.w3.org/2014/07/permissions/
17:43:36 <dsr> TPAC break out session slides: https://www.w3.org/wiki/images/7/78/29-dsr-permissions.pdf
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17:45:51 <Claes_> Dave is showing the slides from yesterday's break-out session.
17:47:41 <Claes_> Dave: Resolution from Paris is to launch a Community Group. Confirmation from Google and Mozilla that they will join.
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17:49:06 <Claes_> ... TCP and UDP Socket API is a example of an API that is too sensitive to expose to any websites
17:49:21 <Claes_> .. Discussions on "Trusted UI"
17:50:16 <Claes_> .. shared experiences native platforms, web platforms and research projects
17:51:13 <Claes_> .. CG will focus on best practices and emerging techniques
17:52:28 <Claes_> .. encourage cross WG review of permissions in  W3C APIs
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17:54:13 <Claes_> ..Agreement that we need shared standards for the  Open Web Platform
17:54:30 <Claes_> ..The ship has already sailed for packaged apps
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17:54:44 <Claes_> ..Innovation by browser vendors for detecting  misbehaving apps
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17:55:01 <Claes_> ..Increasing role for endorsements by trusted 3rd  parties as a way for users to delegate trust  decisions
17:55:31 <Claes_> q+
17:56:40 <Claes_> .. Adrienne Felt's diagram on slide 8
17:57:37 <Claes_> .. examples in the following slides
17:58:19 <JonathanJ1> q+ Is there any relationship with permission API - http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-webapps-minutes.html#item05
17:58:27 <Claes_> .. Trusted UI: slide 10, Media Capture. Can we generalize this model?
17:59:33 <Claes_> Jonathan: Don't really think so. Permission API can just be used by a web app the status of permission to access an API. How to give permission is not defined here.
18:01:03 <Claes_> I mean "to check the status of permission to access an API."
18:03:17 <Claes_> .. goal is to provide a more natural way of user interaction and avoid a lot of prompting.
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18:04:05 <Claes_> .. avoid "faked user interaction to access APIs"
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18:04:47 <wonsuk_> q?
18:04:47 <JonathanJ1> I think we need to clarify the name of API
18:06:16 <Claes_> discussion if browsers can differentiate between input from scripts and users
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18:08:22 <JonathanJ1> q?
18:08:48 <Claes_> .. USer prompting, Geolocation API example
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18:09:17 <Claes_> .. Install-Time consent, Android app installation example.
18:10:18 <Claes_> .. not possible in Android to get information on why an application needs access to a certain API but that is possible in IOS
18:11:01 <JonathanJ1> http://www.w3.org/2014/07/permissions/minutes.html
18:13:16 <Claes_> .. Trust Delegation
18:13:49 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:13:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1
18:14:15 <Claes_> ..App stores may have rigorous processes for vetting  apps before allowing users to install them. However, hosted apps could change frequently and this model does not work here
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18:14:43 <anssik> [ http://w3c.github.io/webappsec/specs/subresourceintegrity/ ]
18:16:22 <anssik> dsr, great presentation, thanks!
18:16:25 <anssik> q+
18:16:31 <Claes_> .. business models for hosted apps diffferent. Use manifest to point at trusted "endorsement site?
18:21:10 <Claes_> .. Sony Mobile is trying a model for FFOS "Trusted Hosted web apps" that is based on using existing web security mechanisms ssl/tls, signed manifest and csp. See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sysapps/2014Sep/att-0000/SoMC_FFOS_Trusted_Hosted_Apps.pdf
18:28:24 <Claes_> Vendors, e.g. Mozilla, are already providing APIs requiring a security model to achieve trust so we are not stuck in defining sensitive APIs.
18:31:13 <Claes_> Anssi: Discussion on if we should have a W3C WG for APIs applicable for "web runtimes" instead of web browser
18:31:58 <Claes_> But Dave stated there is not so strong distinction between "web runtimes" iand "web browsers"
18:33:14 <Claes_> Anssi, I have some trouble capturing what you say so please put in IRC your main points.
18:34:19 <lgombos> q+
18:35:06 <dsr> ack lazlo
18:35:14 <dsr> ack anssik
18:35:22 <anssik> [ http://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/ ]
18:35:25 <dsr> ack lgombas
18:35:34 <dsr> ack lgombos
18:37:40 <Claes_> Lazlo: Take out Task Scheduler to Web Apps WG?
18:40:08 <Claes_> .. due to testing issues we should start to assume browser context for tests
18:41:39 <jungkees> to clarify service worker is running in the existing web same origin model
18:42:25 <Claes_> Jungkee: Integration with SW not related to the API permission level
18:43:29 <anssik> q+ to note that increasingly sensitive APIs are HTTPS only, not just SW
18:43:33 <Claes_> .. SW has to be registered in the same domain. Need to use https.
18:43:57 <dsr> ack anssik
18:43:57 <Zakim> anssik, you wanted to note that increasingly sensitive APIs are HTTPS only, not just SW
18:45:06 <Claes_> Also proposed that access to Geolocation API should require that web page is delivered over https
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18:50:42 <anssik> [ Related Moz issue https://bugzil.la/934289 ]
18:50:56 <anssik> [ This meta-bug captures the work happening to expose functionality which is currently limited to certified APIs to third party web developers. This means exposing APIs (or restricted subsets of APIs) to privileged and regular web apps. ]
18:51:58 <anssik> [ as dsr noted, there are active efforts at moving browsers and runtimes closer together ]
18:53:16 <Claes_> Dave Summary:  Vendors have their own solutions for trust and security but we need to check if there are any implications for distinction between packaged and trusted apps in our APIs? The long term work on a trust and security model is starting with the Community Group.
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18:57:31 <dsr> rrsagent, make minutes
18:57:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-sysapps-minutes.html dsr
18:58:58 <dsr> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight.
18:58:58 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'this meeting spans midnight.', dsr.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:59:02 <dsr> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
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20:43:20 <JonathanJ1> trackbot, start telcon
20:43:20 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
20:45:26 <JonathanJ1> trackbot, start meeting
20:45:26 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
20:46:33 <JonathanJ1> trackbot, bye
20:46:33 <trackbot> trackbot has left #sysapps
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20:47:27 <JonathanJ1> trackbot, bye
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20:48:46 <JonathanJ1> trackbot, start telcon
20:48:46 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
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21:06:39 <dsr> Topic: Telephony
21:06:50 <dsr> editor's draft http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/telephony/
21:07:36 <dsr> Wonsuk talks us through the agenda for the rest of the day.
21:07:46 <dsr> scribenick: dsr
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21:08:29 <dsr> Zoltan: we have an implementation of the telephony API in Crosswalk for the current editor's draft.
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21:09:34 <dsr> On going discussion on conference calls and CDMA. We are looking at separate namespaces for CDMA and GSM
21:09:59 <dsr> This would involve more code from developers but cleaner semantics.
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21:10:43 <dsr> Wonsuk: what do you think about asking Mozilla to review the current spec?
21:11:09 <dsr> Zoltan: I expect significant changes from the refactoring for GSM and CDMA
21:11:43 <dsr> Wonsuk: we can ask Giri @ Qualcom to review the CDMA aspects.
21:12:01 <dsr> Zoltan: yes.
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21:12:36 <dsr> Zoltan: we really need the implementation experience, and I am working on a dialler app with that in mind.
21:13:15 <dsr> Action: Zoltan to forward the new refactored spec to Giri for review.
21:13:15 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
21:13:34 <dsr> s/spec/telephony spec/
21:13:55 <dsr> Wonsuk: what outstanding issues are there?
21:14:19 <dsr> Zoltan: many of these are quite old and need to be cleaned up.
21:14:52 <dsr> Action: Zoltan to clean up GitHub issues for telephony API
21:14:52 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
21:16:33 <dsr> Wonsuk: we need to ask Mozilla as well. Are they planning on an implementation?
21:17:02 <dsr> Wonsuk asks if Zoltan is working directly on the implementation?
21:17:02 <zolkis> please repeat the question
21:17:06 <zolkis> yes
21:17:55 <dsr> Wonsuk: we need multiple implementations to test the interoperability.
21:19:00 <dsr> Zoltan: Mozilla's implementation is working. We've closed the issues they raised. Let's see what comes out of the current discussion. I will summarise to the list.
21:19:58 <dsr> Dave: is Qualcom planning on an implementation?
21:20:22 <dsr> Wonsuk: not that I know of, but they are the experts for CDMA and can review that part of the spec.
21:21:00 <dsr> Topic: Messaging API
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21:21:27 <dsr> editor's draft http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/messaging/
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21:22:05 <dsr> Zoltan: no significant changes since last face  to face, but there are some requirements that it doesn't support.
21:23:30 <dsr> Zoltan: the problematic part is the messaging access.
21:23:53 <dsr> .... We should separate data access API from the messaging API
21:25:24 <dsr> The messaging part may require further attention.  We don't have an implementation yet, so this remains to be proved.
21:25:37 <dsr> Wonsuk: do you have a plan for that?
21:25:57 <dsr> Zoltan: yes, I have the parts and just need to put them together.
21:26:21 <dsr> Wonsuk: You talked about bluetooth.
21:26:40 <dsr> Zoltan: the access part is only for remote devices.
21:27:27 <dsr> ... I will send details in email.
21:28:45 <dsr> Junkkee: this is still using system messages to receive messages, but other specs are integrating with service worker for messages, so perhaps we need to change this spec to match?
21:29:19 <dsr> s/Junkkee/Jungkees/
21:29:36 <dsr> Zoltan: we already have an open issue on this.
21:29:46 <jungkees> Task scheduler API and Notifications API have already integrated the hook to service worker
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21:30:14 <jungkees> and this part of the service worker is stable enough now, so Zoltan can refer to that part of the spec
21:30:19 <jungkees> I'll drop the links
21:31:11 <jungkees> https://slightlyoff.github.io/ServiceWorker/spec/service_worker/index.html#extensibility
21:31:30 <jungkees> Notifications API integration: https://notifications.spec.whatwg.org/#activating-a-notification
21:31:44 <zolkis> ok - note that I've sent a few remarks on usability of push api + notifications + service workers in Telephony API on the webapp mailing list
21:32:10 <dsr> Wonsuk asks Zoltan to investigate the service worker issue as explained by Jungkees
21:32:12 <jungkees> and also see the relevant part from task scheduler api: http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/web-alarms/
21:32:33 <dsr> Zoltan: I think that this would be no problem to address
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21:33:00 <jungkees> thanks zolkis
21:35:04 <dsr> Dave will contact Zoltan directly if there are issues in publishing an updated WD based upon the current editor's draft.
21:36:59 <dsr> We will publish new WD's when the refactoring for CDMA/GSM is done.
21:37:42 <dsr> Topic: TCP and UDP sockets
21:38:06 <dsr> Claes presents some slides (to be added to minutes later)
21:38:29 <dsr> Summary of the status for the socket API.
21:39:42 <dsr> Claes shows us the editor's draft, see http://www.w3.org/2012/sysapps/tcp-udp-sockets/
21:40:01 <dsr> Example use cases are listed in section 1 (Introduction)
21:40:32 <dsr> In last month, I have rewritten the spec to be based on the Streams API
21:41:00 <dsr> Spec is now ready for publication, and remaining actions related to secure connections.
21:42:06 <dsr> The spec states that the API can only be exposed to trusted apps, but that is out of scope for this document.
21:42:43 <dsr> Claes introduces the Streams API. There is a JavaScript polyfill and test suite
21:43:30 <dsr> The W3C version of the API defines a few extensions to the WHAT WG Streams API for requirements specific to the browser environment.
21:43:51 <dsr> Some discussion on making Streams part of the ECMAScript standard.
21:44:24 <dsr> Action: Claes to provide link to Chromium bug on adding support for Streams API
21:44:24 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
21:44:55 <dsr> I have chatted with Marcos and he says Mozilla are interested.
21:45:34 <dsr> Claes lists the things that need to be addressed to add support for secure sockets.
21:46:20 <dsr> These include certificate pinning, cipher suites, client authentication, and selection of server certificates for TCPServerSocket.
21:46:46 <dsr> Also adding support for upgrading existing connection to a secure connection.
21:48:22 <dsr> Some question about use cases for secure UDP sockets or not.
21:49:03 <dsr> Question: is the concern over secure UDP sockets relating to certificates?
21:49:29 <dsr> Claes: it is more about not including features without strong user cases.
21:50:32 <dsr> Discussion about complementary role of webcrypto group.
21:50:51 <dsr> They may be able to support some of the use cases.
21:51:39 <dsr> s/Question/Alex Russell/
21:52:20 <dsr> Agreement that a simple user consent dialog isn't sufficient.
21:53:14 <dsr> Alex: recommend avoiding including a policy in the API and instead leaving this to the user agent.
21:54:10 <dsr> Otherwise, this looks very promising for us (Chrome)
21:54:23 <dsr> Alex to send further background info to Claes.
21:55:29 <dsr> Claes talks about the motivations for basing the socket API on Streams.
21:56:20 <dsr> The Streams API https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/
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21:58:33 <dsr> Claes' slides http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sysapps/2014Oct/att-0056/TCP_UDP_Socket_API_-_TPAC_2014.pdf
22:02:36 <dsr> In essence the Streams API simplifies the code that developers need to write
22:03:22 <dsr> An example is the management of buffers using high water marks.
22:03:30 <dsr> s/high/high and low/
22:06:04 <dsr> Wonsuk asks about the current implementation status in Chrome.
22:07:33 <dsr> Claes may be able to work on an implementation, but this depends on Sony.
22:08:26 <slightlyoff> Claes: sorry I had to leave, this is Alex, my email addr is slightlyoff@google.com
22:08:48 <dsr> Terri: has there been any discussion on restricting sockets to particular IP addresses?
22:09:26 <dsr> Could content security policies be extended to support that?
22:10:34 <dsr> Claes has heard back from Mozilla who are definitely interested in the UDP and TCP Socket API.
22:11:41 <dsr> Terri: suggest talking with webappsec WG in relation to CSP.
22:12:07 <dsr> Jungkees: it could fit with the CSP connectors mechanism.
22:12:38 <dsr> s/connectors/connect-src/
22:14:37 <dsr> Claes: Intel implemented the old version of the spec (predatingStreams) for Crosswalk.
22:16:41 <dsr> We are expecting implementations for the new spec for both Chrome and Firefox OS.
22:18:02 <dsr> Jungkees explains Alex's suggestion about using a user consent dialog that returns a promise that the app can then use with the API.
22:19:47 <dsr> Claes: when you create a UDP socket you don't specify the IP address. This is given when you sent a UDP packet. I will look at the push API.
22:19:57 <dsr> s/sent/send/
22:20:56 <dsr> Jungkees: so we will be able to proceed with this API without specifying the permissions mechanism, right?
22:20:59 <dsr> Dave: yes
22:21:36 <dsr> Wonsuk explains that further.
22:21:51 <dsr> Each platform applies its own permissions model.
22:24:01 <dsr> We take a short break for 20 minutes and will resume at 3:43 PST
22:39:44 <slightlyoff> dsr: for the record, I don't want to make UA's prompt users if they can avoid it. Only want an API that lets UAs make decisions that are independent of each other
22:40:44 <slightlyoff> so that if, in some situation, it seems reasonable to ask a user (or a network service, or a local policy broker, or all of the above) the UA can do that without requiring the API to change
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22:49:53 <dsr> Topic: Media Storage API
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22:51:36 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
22:51:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1
22:52:58 <dsr> Claes presents his slides, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sysapps/2014Oct/att-0055/Sony-MediaStorageAPI.pdf
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22:55:42 <dsr> This is a SysApps phase 2 work item, and it got a good score in Dave's questionnaire on rechartering. I would like to see if it is timely to start work on it.
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22:56:57 <dsr> Claes asks if people would like to start work on MediaStorage?
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22:57:04 <dsr> Jungkees: yes
22:57:53 <dsr> Kenneth: is this only for packaged apps?
22:58:35 <dsr> Claes: this is for trusted apps, and not for all web apps.
22:59:36 <dsr> Rich Tibbet: could this work as an extension to the file picker?
23:01:00 <dsr> Claes: I don't think so. In this case we want to list a number of available files, e.g. all albums of a certain artist.
23:02:14 <dsr> Rich: rather than returning a file, and instead returning a token for it.
23:02:32 <dsr> Kenneth: is some kind of trusted UI possible?
23:04:27 <dsr> Rich: building on existing UI would simplify the work we need to do. A token would prevent the app from having access to the data in files.
23:06:07 <dsr> Claes: how does that protect users from evil apps deleting files?
23:07:13 <dsr> Rich: you could select files for playing, for uploading to the cloud.
23:09:32 <dsr> Wonsuk: before we decide we should think about the use cases.
23:10:37 <dsr> ... we could consider a media player with thumbnails and metadata. We may need to provide a metadata API?
23:11:12 <dsr> Dave asks Claes what he means by provide access to media files.
23:11:46 <dsr> Claes shows the Chrome getMediaFileSystems API.
23:14:25 <dsr> Dave: you could perhaps get the file as a token that can be passed to a player without the need to get the data as a blob. This could be useful for video files that are potentially several gigabytes long.
23:14:38 <dsr> Jungkees: a Stream API might be the solution.
23:15:31 <dsr> Claes: a request could get a promise as a way to decouple the permissioning mechanism.
23:17:59 <dsr> Claes shows us a draft API. He can't send us a link to this right now.
23:19:04 <dsr> Claes: can we discuss the functional requirements now or by email?
23:19:43 <dsr> Dave: have you asked browser vendors about the use cases and scope?
23:19:58 <dsr> Claes: not yet, I was hoping to do so today!
23:20:09 <dsr> (Rich ducks in the corner)
23:20:36 <dsr> Claes: okay I will take the scoping discussion to email.
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23:21:10 <dsr> Topic: Rechartering part 1
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23:31:58 <Claes> Scribe: Claes
23:32:22 <Claes> Dropped Data Store, Mozilla does no longer want to persue it
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23:32:56 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
23:32:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1
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23:33:24 <Claes> Secure Elements: Interest should be evaluated within this group. If no interest API could be moved to another group
23:33:47 <Claes> Check what new work items that could be applicable.
23:35:06 <Claes> Generally, if existing work items in SysApps are no longer of interest for this group we should consider moving them to othe rgroups
23:35:21 <Claes> s /rgroups/groups/
23:36:00 <JonathanJ1> s/othe groups/other groups/
23:36:00 <tomoyuki> s/othe/other/
23:37:28 <JonathanJ1> I have sent an email about the next phase item on Settings, Bluetooth - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-sysapps/2014Oct/0059.html
23:37:36 <Claes> Should go through the list of SysApps work items and evaluate the justification for them (use cases, etc)
23:38:59 <Claes> Wonsuk opens the charter
23:41:02 <Claes> Bluetooth: Low level implementing the low level BT connectivity
23:42:45 <Claes> The W3C BT CG has been formed but it is not which WG that should take up the specification work
23:42:59 <Claes> "not decided"
23:44:17 <Claes> Need to call out which BT profiles that we should expose to the web platform
23:47:49 <zolkis> I am looking into BT use cases as well
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23:48:51 <Claes> Action on Jonathan and Zoltan to investigate BT use cases and which BT profiles that we should expose to the web platform
23:48:51 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
23:50:28 <JonathanJ1> https://webbluetoothcg.github.io/web-bluetooth/use-cases.html
23:51:34 <Claes> Network Interface API:
23:52:05 <wonsuk_> Network Interface API in current charter: An API to manipulate network interfaces (mobile, WiFi, etc.), such as listing available networks, current strength, etc., as well as configuring and enabling them. It may build atop the simpler network information API that Device APIs is working on. Potential uses include offloading connections from mobile networks
23:52:05 <wonsuk_> to WiFi, enabling high priority mobile data connections and control of other network features
23:52:13 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
23:52:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1
23:52:58 <JonathanJ1> http://www.w3.org/2012/09/sysapps-wg-charter
23:54:59 <Claes> Old DAP API: http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-netinfo-api-20110607/
23:56:21 <Claes> Just exposed the current connection type. The value returned: unknown, ethernet, wifi, 2g, 3g, 4g, none.
23:56:24 <JonathanJ1> I think it's an idea similar to Network Interface API on android - http://developer.android.com/reference/java/net/NetworkInterface.html
23:57:18 <wonsuk_> Network Information API in DAP WG: http://w3c.github.io/netinfo/
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00:00:40 <jungkees> /me ArtB re-charter discussion has been started
00:05:31 <Claes> Needs to clarify the scope of the Network Interface API. Just give information on connection or ability to switch connection?
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00:07:55 <Claes> Action Jonathan: clarify the scope and use cases for the Network Interface API
00:07:55 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
00:08:20 <Claes> App Lifecycle: Needs Anssi
00:09:17 <Claes> Data Store: Dropped
00:09:27 <Claes> Device Capabilities:
00:10:03 <Claes> Example is Tizen System Information API
00:11:51 <Claes> https://developer.tizen.org/documentation/dev-guide/2.2.1?redirect=https://developer.tizen.org/dev-guide/2.2.1/org.tizen.web.appprogramming/html/api_reference/api_reference.htm
00:13:04 <Claes> Need more work on use cases
00:13:34 <wonsuk_> direct link to Tizen system info api: https://developer.tizen.org/dev-guide/2.2.0/org.tizen.web.device.apireference/tizen/systeminfo.html
00:15:46 <Claes> Action for Wonsuk to mail SysApps list to request someone to look at use cases for Device Capabilities API
00:15:46 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
00:16:29 <Claes> Idle:
00:17:55 <Claes> Action for Wonsuk to mail SysApps list to request input on need for Idle.
00:17:55 <trackbot> Sorry, but no Tracker is associated with this channel.
00:19:27 <Claes> Secure Elements:
00:19:32 <Claes> Jörg Heuer: Project on using web tech to create a wallet. Need to link to Secure Elements
00:20:06 <Claes> ..not only credit cards
00:20:19 <Claes> .. need a generic interface
00:20:33 <Claes> .. have been doing work with Mozilla
00:21:54 <Claes> Seems to be strng interest for this API
00:22:43 <Claes> Done for today. Continuing rechartering discussion tomorrow morning at 9 am
00:22:45 <dsr> rrsagent, make minutes
00:22:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-sysapps-minutes.html dsr
00:24:23 <JonathanJ1> https://appear.in/sysapps
00:24:29 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
00:24:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-sysapps-minutes.html JonathanJ1
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