15:53:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
15:53:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc
15:53:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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15:53:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
15:53:10 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:30AM scheduled to start 23 minutes ago
15:53:11 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
15:53:11 <trackbot> Date: 30 October 2014
15:53:26 <timeless> s/Weekly Teleconference/F2F - TPAC2014/
15:53:34 <timeless> scribe: timeless
15:53:39 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:53:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
15:53:45 <timeless> agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda#F2F_Topics
15:53:54 <timeless> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:55:25 <paulc> F2F topics: https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda#F2F_Topics
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15:57:28 <timeless> chair: paulc, rubys
15:57:37 <timeless> s/rubys1/rubys/G
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16:01:23 <timeless> present+ Josh_Soref
16:01:24 <edoyle> edoyle has joined #html-wg
16:01:33 <rubys> present+ Sam_Ruby
16:01:34 <plh> Present+ (plh)
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16:01:37 <plh> Present+ plh
16:01:40 <Cyril> present+ Cyril_Concolato
16:01:41 <AdamB> present+ AdamB
16:01:49 <ddorwin> present+
16:01:50 <timeless> Present- (plh)
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16:02:37 <ddorwin> present+ David_Dorwin
16:02:41 <edoyle> present+ Erika_Navara
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16:07:05 <glazou> has the meeting started or is it unminuted at this time?
16:07:29 <timeless> paulc: i'll be like the Baptist minister: "why are there no people in the front three pews?"
16:07:33 <timeless> ... can people move in
16:07:45 <timeless> ... we have a polycom, on this side
16:07:48 <timeless> ... please move in
16:07:59 <timeless> s/has the meeting started or is it unminuted at this time?//
16:08:04 <tantek> tantek has joined #html-wg
16:08:26 <timeless> paulc: we're waiting for darobin
16:09:04 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:09:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
16:09:33 <tantek> good morning #html-wg - lurking here in IRC while in the AB meeting in person a few doors down.
16:09:42 <paulc> paulc has joined #html-wg
16:09:57 <timeless> Zakim, call santa-barbara
16:09:57 <Zakim> I am sorry, timeless; I do not know a number for santa-barbara
16:09:59 <timeless> Zakim, call santabarbara
16:09:59 <Zakim> ok, timeless; the call is being made
16:10:00 <Zakim> HTML_WG()11:30AM has now started
16:10:01 <Zakim> +Santabarbara
16:10:14 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
16:10:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara
16:10:33 <timeless> Zakim, Santabarbara has rubys, paulc, timeless, MikeSmith
16:10:33 <Zakim> +rubys, paulc, timeless, MikeSmith; got it
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16:10:56 <adrianba> Present+ Adrian_Bateman
16:11:22 <edoyle> edoyle has joined #html-wg
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16:13:11 <timeless> Zakim, darobin has entered Santabarbara
16:13:12 <Zakim> +darobin; got it
16:13:42 <timeless> topic: Introduction
16:13:44 <timeless> paulc: good morning
16:13:49 <timeless> ... i'm Paul Cotton, cochair WG
16:14:01 <timeless> MikeSmith: Michael Smith, W3C
16:14:13 <timeless> Josh_Soref: Josh Soref, BlackBerry, Scribe, Observer
16:14:23 <timeless> AAA: aaa
16:14:25 <timeless> BBB: bbb
16:14:27 <timeless> CCC: ccc
16:14:31 <timeless> DDD: ddd
16:14:34 <JonathanJ1> JonathanJ1 has joined #html-wg
16:14:37 <timeless> darobin: Robin Berjon, W3C
16:14:41 <timeless> EEE: eee
16:14:45 <timeless> plh: PLH
16:14:52 <timeless> rubys: Sam Ruby, cochair
16:14:56 <timeless> FFF: fff
16:14:59 <timeless> GGG: ggg
16:15:02 <timeless> HHH: hhh
16:15:11 <timeless> III: iii
16:15:13 <Cyril> s/AAA: aaa/Cyril: Cyril Concolato, Institut Telecom, interested in the Media TF work/
16:15:19 <zcorpan_> s/EEE: eee/zcorpan: Simon Pieters, Opera Software/
16:15:23 <timeless> JJJ: jjj
16:15:33 <timeless> MMM: mmm
16:15:38 <timeless> NNN: nnn
16:15:55 <Evangelos> Evangelos has joined #html-wg
16:16:00 <timeless> paulc: we're on #html-wg
16:16:13 <timeless> ... Josh_Soref is scribing, thank you josh
16:16:20 <timeless> Topic: Agenda Bashing
16:16:24 <Santabarbara> https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda#F2F_Topics
16:16:27 <kurosawa> s/BBB: bbb/kurosawa: Takeshi Kurosawa, Mitsue-Links/
16:16:46 <timeless> paulc: first item, First Screen Paint in Advance
16:16:56 <timeless> ... discussed in Web Perf WG on Tuesday
16:17:03 <timeless> ... there's an email on public-html
16:17:05 <zcorpan_> <http://www.w3.org/mid/C99B14A348100349A457CD82738FB0AB1BCE0185@M1-MAIL-MBX03.internal.baidu.com>
16:17:06 <stone> stone has joined #html-wg
16:17:15 <timeless> ... because proponents would like to have a remote participant from China
16:17:20 <timeless> ... and we're 15 hours behind China
16:17:25 <timeless> ... i'm proposing to do that at 5pm today
16:17:30 <timeless> ... that's 8am tomorrow morning
16:17:38 <timeless> ... we can't do it tomorrow, since that's Saturday in China
16:17:39 <rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2014Oct/0062.html
16:17:40 <timeless> ... that's locked
16:17:49 <darobin> darobin has joined #html-wg
16:17:55 <timeless> ... fair amount of discussion in WebApps on Intentions (2 hours)
16:18:01 <timeless> ... i don't know if anyone here wants to discuss that
16:18:08 <timeless> ... Canvas TF, assume we'd want an update
16:18:14 <timeless> ... Media TF requested Friday morning
16:18:20 <timeless> ... i've stretched that through 1pm
16:18:29 <timeless> ... i've talked about starting at 8:30am tomorrow
16:18:43 <timeless> ... Charter schedule tells us we do HTML5.1 and Canvas 2D level 2
16:18:58 <timeless> ... there was at least a breakout session on After HTML5
16:19:00 <wei-james> wei-james has joined #html-wg
16:19:08 <timeless> ... darobin started a discussion on public-html@ probably over a month ago
16:19:13 <timeless> ... chairs suggest doing it first
16:19:28 <timeless> ... i expect we should do it first, and also think about how much time we need for it
16:19:28 <SteveF> +1 to paul on doing first
16:19:36 <timeless> ... i included a link to outstanding HTML5 bugs
16:19:39 <timeless> ... 288 of them
16:19:46 <timeless> ... that's just searching bugzilla for the component
16:19:56 <timeless> ... and it isn't obvious to me that that simple search is even right
16:20:02 <timeless> ... in the press briefings on Monday
16:20:08 <timeless> ... 40,000 emails
16:20:13 <timeless> ... lots of formal objections
16:20:20 <timeless> ... i didn't tell the press about outstanding bugs
16:20:22 <timeless> ... --
16:20:28 <timeless> ... 3 topics on Accessibility
16:20:33 <timeless> ... the first is locked to this morning
16:20:45 <timeless> ... it isn't obvious to me that we'll know how many accessibility people will be here to discuss
16:20:53 <timeless> ... i went to the SVG meeting @9am this morning
16:21:01 <timeless> ... to discuss this first topic after the break
16:21:15 <timeless> ... -- the item about PFWG
16:21:19 <timeless> ... Digital Publishing
16:21:25 <timeless> ... they asked for a slot 4-5pm today
16:21:35 <timeless> ... and we have a DOM4 status update: test failures
16:21:40 <timeless> ... not sure about how long/how much time
16:21:44 <timeless> ... Agenda...
16:21:54 <timeless> ... we're in "Unconference"
16:22:15 <darobin_> darobin_ has joined #html-wg
16:22:15 <timeless> ... we have a 10:45-11:15 Coffee break -- technically, coffee is over at 11am
16:22:22 <timeless> ... I put our start inside the window,
16:22:36 <timeless> ... first item, Accessibility topics Part 1 (11:15-1am)
16:22:42 <paulliu> paulliu has joined #html-wg
16:22:53 <timeless> ... slots 3 and 4 after lunch are open
16:22:57 <igarashi> igarashi has joined #html-wg
16:22:59 <timeless> ... Tomorrow
16:23:09 <timeless> ... i've made some modifications already
16:23:13 <timeless> ... I sent Media TF a list of EME bugs
16:23:20 <timeless> ... I've suggested 3 slots for EME
16:23:25 <timeless> ... so many things outstanding
16:23:34 <timeless> ... w/ TAG's input we went from 19 to 26/27 bugs
16:23:41 <timeless> ... and in last two weeks, we've closed only 2
16:23:49 <timeless> ... we need to do MSE CR status/test suite review
16:23:54 <timeless> ... we need to decide
16:23:58 <timeless> ... where to put items
16:24:06 <timeless> ... anyone object to lockdown?
16:24:09 <timeless> ... plh ?
16:24:26 <timeless> plh: glazou wanted to be around for HTML5 discussion
16:24:31 <timeless> ... but he's blocked until 1pm
16:24:32 <wooglae> wooglae has joined #html-wg
16:24:40 <timeless> s/1pm/11am/
16:25:15 <timeless> plh: and he's leaving today
16:25:25 <timeless> ... i'm guessing we won't be able to accommodate him
16:25:34 <timeless> paulc: say we start After HTML5 discussion at 9:30m
16:25:40 <timeless> s/30m/30am/
16:25:45 <timeless> ... would we need a second block?
16:25:48 <timeless> plh: probably
16:25:57 <timeless> paulc: people could discuss over break/lunch
16:26:09 <timeless> ... and we could do a second slot after lunch, and glazou could come to that
16:27:07 <timeless> paulc: adrianba, is ben still here?
16:27:10 <timeless> adrianba: he's left
16:27:18 <timeless> darobin_: without ben, it will be hard
16:27:23 <timeless> paulc: it's going to be short
16:27:29 <timeless> ... put that item at 2pm for 15 mins today
16:27:38 <timeless> s/darobin_:/darobin:/G
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16:27:48 <timeless> paulc: and maybe darobin_ can find the webapps minutes?
16:27:48 <r12a> r12a has joined #html-wg
16:28:00 <timeless> s/ darobin_/ darobin/G
16:28:12 <timeless> paulc: Canvas TF, maybe 15 mins after that?
16:28:24 <timeless> rubys: make sense to slice Accessibility slot to cover Canvas ?
16:28:31 <timeless> paulc: not the first slot
16:28:46 <timeless> ... so add that to the 4-5pm slot today
16:29:04 <MarkVickers> MarkVickers has joined #html-wg
16:29:09 <timeless> [ hober spills coffee ]
16:29:13 <glazou> Present+ Shane_Stevens
16:29:28 <timeless> hober: i'll remain anonymous for now
16:29:43 <timeless> paulc: 2pm slot this afternoon, Editing TF
16:29:51 <timeless> ... plh, can we do DOM4 status in <15 mins?
16:29:58 <timeless> darobin_: if we want to discuss bugs, we need more
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16:30:07 <timeless> paulc: what about the 45 mins
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16:30:19 <timeless> darobin_: we'd like to do DOM4 tomorrow to have time to run more tests
16:30:27 <timeless> paulc: ok... look down for tomorrow
16:30:44 <timeless> ... paulc ddorwin , MarkS , others, can we start 8:30 tomorrow morning?
16:30:58 <ShaneM_> ShaneM_ has joined #html-wg
16:31:03 <timeless> ... everyone put up their hand if they'll be at tomorrow morning
16:31:13 <timeless> ... noon, 1pm, 2pm, 3pm
16:31:18 <timeless> ... 4pm
16:31:24 <timeless> ... that seems to say we can go pretty deep
16:31:30 <timeless> ... but since ddorwin is editor of EME
16:31:38 <timeless> ... and w/ children who want to go out for Halloween
16:31:48 <timeless> ... and people rant about Halloween -- TPAC
16:32:05 <timeless> ... change 09:00 to 8:30
16:32:22 <timeless> ... ddorwin leaves at 1pm
16:32:28 <timeless> ... do lunch until 2pm
16:32:31 <tomoyuki> tomoyuki has joined #html-wg
16:32:39 <timeless> ... Session 11 - 2pm-3pm
16:32:46 <timeless> ... that can be DOM4
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16:33:00 <timeless> ... (test failures)
16:33:09 <timeless> ... start EME bugs Part 1 at 8:30am tomorrow
16:33:41 <timeless> hober: Ted O Connor, Apple
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16:35:27 <timeless> paulc: ddorwin did you confirm that acolwell
16:35:41 <timeless> ... move the MSE CR status to 12:30AM-1PM
16:35:58 <timeless> ... and expand Part to 11:00-12:30PM
16:36:06 <timeless> ... 4 hours of EME tomorrow morning
16:36:18 <timeless> ... break for lunch
16:36:21 <timeless> ... come back for DOM4
16:36:33 <timeless> [ Agenda reloads ]
16:36:55 <timeless> paulc: move back to Day 1
16:37:09 <timeless> ... I think we can shrink Editing TF to 2pm-2:30pm
16:37:30 <timeless> ... Session 4 should be After HTML5 part 2 2:30-3:30pm
16:37:48 <timeless> ... if Editing TF ends early, we'll segway straight to After HTML5
16:37:59 <timeless> s/ddorwin1/ddorwin/G
16:38:03 <timeless> ... what have we missed?
16:38:31 <timeless> ... Canvas2D level 2 -> after html5
16:38:40 <timeless> .... accessibility part one partly covered
16:38:44 <timeless> s/.../../
16:38:52 <timeless> ... accessibility part 2 isn't covered
16:38:59 <timeless> ... did we know how we were going to cover this?
16:39:02 <timeless> ... SteveF ?
16:39:13 <timeless> ... name computation, access key, captcha ?
16:39:21 <timeless> ... was I overly zealous by adding this to the wiki?
16:39:22 <igarashi> igarashi has joined #html-wg
16:39:26 <timeless> SteveF: I can see, but I have no idea
16:39:44 <timeless> paulc: since we'll see PF at 11:15am today
16:39:54 <timeless> ... we'll have to ask them what they want to do w/ A11Y-part2
16:40:02 <timeless> ... I know footnotes, roles, validation have to be today
16:40:32 <timeless> paulc: add A11y-part2 to 30min slot after DOM4 tomorrow
16:40:39 <timeless> ... session 12
16:41:11 <timeless> ... other comments on topics?
16:41:52 <timeless> paulc: i suspect tantek is interested in After HTML5 on maintenance
16:41:58 <timeless> hober: AC meeting starts at 11am?
16:42:04 <timeless> [ yes ]
16:42:15 <timeless> Travis: did we want to discuss extension specs?
16:42:17 <timeless> paulc: good point
16:42:26 <timeless> ... Longdesc from A11y
16:42:32 <timeless> ... Canvas if you want to treat it
16:42:33 <timeless> ... EME
16:42:36 <Yves> Yves has joined #html-wg
16:42:43 <timeless> ... MSE
16:42:55 <timeless> ... i can give you an oral report on longdesc
16:42:58 <timeless> ... right now
16:43:07 <timeless> travis: any other submissions to glance over
16:43:11 <timeless> ... we have a wiki of extensions
16:43:15 <rubys> https://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/wg/2014-10-Agenda#F2F_Topics
16:43:32 <timeless> paulc: move A11y topic to after Coffee (Session 13)
16:43:46 <timeless> ... and do status rundown of all extension specs tomorrow (session 12 before coffee)
16:43:54 <timeless> ... if a11y people don't want to meet tomorrow
16:43:59 <timeless> ... and we don't have overflow topics
16:44:05 <timeless> ... we might adjourn at coffee tomorrow
16:44:20 <timeless> [ Refreshes Agenda ]
16:44:25 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:44:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
16:44:37 <timeless> paulc: we could do URL (webapps) in Extensions
16:44:41 <timeless> ... other topics?
16:44:46 <timeless> ... ok, i think we have an agenda
16:45:07 <timeless> Topic: After HTML5
16:45:16 <timeless> paulc: darobin, shall i give you the floor?
16:45:32 <timeless> ... assume 1/2 the people know what you're talking about
16:45:38 <timeless> darobin: hey, we finished HTML5, by the way
16:45:41 <timeless> MikeSmith: Yay
16:45:42 <rubys> http://darobin.github.io/after5/
16:45:44 <timeless> [ Applause ]
16:45:55 <timeless> darobin: what's next, do we go home, and sip margaritas
16:45:59 <timeless> ... or do we keep doing some work
16:46:04 <timeless> ... not sure how much detail i should go
16:46:13 <timeless> ... maybe highlights, and then deeper w/ Qs
16:46:32 <timeless> ... rubys suggested "The best way to get the right answer on the Internet is not to ask a question, it's to post the wrong answer."
16:46:52 <timeless> ... if you don't like it and don't speak up, it will become a decision
16:47:02 <timeless> ... it would be wonderful to increase participation
16:47:09 <timeless> ... the people who built the kittens... namely web developers
16:47:16 <timeless> ... we built the technology
16:47:19 <timeless> ... we should meet somewhere
16:47:33 <timeless> ... editors would agree that the way we managed publication of HTML5 was painful
16:47:40 <timeless> ... maybe learn from world of software development
16:47:45 <wseltzer> wseltzer has joined #html-wg
16:47:46 <timeless> ... Nightly version, stabilize
16:47:48 <timeless> ... features
16:47:56 <timeless> ... try to avoid 120,000 lines of code in a single file
16:48:12 <timeless> ... orthoganalize features to make progress independently
16:48:12 <xiaoqian> xiaoqian has joined #html-wg
16:48:16 <timeless> ... cut spec into smaller parts
16:48:18 <timeless> ... ship them
16:48:22 <timeless> ... focus on the bits
16:48:32 <timeless> ... adopt classic open source process
16:48:35 <timeless> ... pull request
16:48:40 <timeless> ... so people can join in
16:48:45 <timeless> ... not revolution
16:48:48 <timeless> ... try to rationalize
16:48:55 <timeless> ... no vibe of outrage at this point
16:48:58 <timeless> paulc: some discussion here
16:49:04 <timeless> ... WG would have to come to a decision about what it does
16:49:08 <timeless> ... so, start w/ Qs
16:49:17 <timeless> ... 1. what do we do w/ the 300 outstanding bugs?
16:49:22 <timeless> darobin: good Q. triage them
16:49:35 <timeless> ... i suspect quite a few have been fixed, but we haven't closed the bug yet
16:49:44 <timeless> ... figure out which ones can be closed as Errata to HTML5
16:49:46 <timeless> ... small bugs
16:49:54 <timeless> ... maybe a shame to do Errata once we publish REC
16:49:59 <timeless> ... but we have to, it's cycle of life
16:50:02 <maheshkk> maheshkk has joined #html-wg
16:50:04 <timeless> ... last batch, new work, new modules
16:50:11 <timeless> ... for them, push to modules and focus on that
16:50:18 <timeless> ... in some cases highlight what to work on
16:50:27 <timeless> travis: under previous process
16:50:32 <timeless> ... editors generated new content
16:50:35 <timeless> ... fixed bugs in our component
16:50:41 <timeless> ... we'd have bugs fixed by whatwg component
16:50:52 <timeless> ... a large portion of our job was to synchronize
16:51:00 <timeless> ... from shared source and push into our branch
16:51:04 <timeless> ... under this after5 plan
16:51:14 <timeless> ... what is the plan/philosophy to keep in sync/not-in-sync
16:51:21 <timeless> darobin: you're an editor, what do you think?
16:51:29 <timeless> travis: i'd love to see
16:51:33 <timeless> ... probably not realistic
16:51:43 <timeless> ... i'd love contributors from whatwg to participate in our process
16:51:46 <timeless> ... pull requests
16:51:47 <timeless> ... approved
16:51:52 <timeless> ... short of that, i don't really know
16:51:58 <paulc> paulc has joined #html-wg
16:52:08 <timeless> ... i know we need to be sensisitive to their desires
16:52:11 <plh> q+
16:52:19 <timeless> ... if they're ok w/ pulling relevant content across or not
16:52:26 <MarkVickers> q+
16:52:32 <timeless> ack plh
16:52:35 <timeless> plh: call a cat a cat
16:52:46 <timeless> ... hixie has said he wanted w3c to stop copying his work
16:52:53 <timeless> ... we agreed for the purpose of shipping html5
16:53:02 <timeless> ... we looked at whatwg as submission to html5 spec
16:53:04 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
16:53:04 <AndroUser2> AndroUser2 has joined #html-wg
16:53:07 <sunghan> sunghan has joined #html-wg
16:53:07 <timeless> ... html5 spec shipped
16:53:14 <timeless> ... what do we do, he wants us to stop copying his work
16:53:15 <timeless> ack MarkVickers
16:53:22 <timeless> MarkVickers: i don't have an answer to that Q
16:53:29 <Hitoshi_> Hitoshi_ has joined #html-wg
16:53:33 <timeless> ... i think, the idea that this would be modular, able to react to submissions
16:53:39 <timeless> ... is a much better way of going forward
16:53:53 <timeless> ... i think a large document approach is difficult for people to track inside/outside
16:53:57 <timeless> ... DataQ is hard
16:54:04 <timeless> ... it doesn't mean anything, quite arbitrary
16:54:05 <rubys> q+
16:54:16 <timeless> ... much better if you could look up where it is based on Tests/Implementation
16:54:17 <paulc> q+
16:54:24 <timeless> ... i think better by
16:54:28 <timeless> ... whatwg
16:54:35 <timeless> ... I think the whatwg doesn't like the current structure
16:54:42 <timeless> ... they did it to keep in sync
16:54:46 <timeless> ... perhaps we should have a joint conversation
16:54:48 <timeless> ack rubys
16:54:55 <timeless> rubys: comment on the way i work
16:55:00 <timeless> ... i don't work well on abstract things
16:55:03 <timeless> ... you mentioned DataQ
16:55:14 <timeless> ... what needs to be addressed in 3, 10, 12, 15 months
16:55:21 <timeless> ... maybe it makes sense to work on small things
16:55:23 <timeless> ... DataQ
16:55:30 <timeless> ... and we look at a resync w/ whatwg in 2-5 years
16:55:31 <timeless> ack paulc
16:55:43 <timeless> paulc: darobin, your original proposal said break up this 1300 page document into modules
16:55:51 <timeless> ... but as rubys implied, that's fairly abstract
16:55:56 <timeless> ... can we talk about how we'd do that
16:56:03 <timeless> ... rubys took MarkVickers 's suggestion
16:56:09 <timeless> ... all the things we took out of for CR
16:56:12 <timeless> ... "almost there"
16:56:25 <timeless> ... but if we told Editorial staff to break it up into modules, what would you do?
16:56:28 <timeless> darobin: 2 things
16:56:41 <timeless> ... saner: focus on either things we cut out for CR / moved to 5.1
16:56:46 <timeless> ... or things that need updates
16:56:50 <timeless> ... SteveF's Area mapping
16:56:56 <timeless> ... that would make sense to keep progressing
16:57:10 <timeless> SteveF: Areas ...
16:57:24 <timeless> ... i can't remember the number, ARIA native semantic buttons
16:57:31 <timeless> ... map Areas of abstract mapping tool
16:57:36 <timeless> ... that section
16:57:41 <timeless> ... but there's a number of other sections
16:57:46 <timeless> ... another, the alt= guidance
16:57:48 <Travis> Travis has joined #html-wg
16:57:55 <timeless> ... in a more general sense, conformance requirements, + authoring advice
16:58:02 <timeless> ... but that covers a lot of the spec in discrete parts
16:58:02 <Travis> q+
16:58:08 <timeless> ... i don't see how that would be excised out
16:58:15 <timeless> paulc: ARIA Roles
16:58:16 <timeless> ... containable
16:58:22 <timeless> s/Areas/ARIA Roles/
16:58:24 <timeless> s/Areas/ARIA Roles/
16:58:33 <timeless> ... 3rd Guidance, spread through document
16:58:39 <timeless> ... alt= guidance
16:58:52 <timeless> ... TextPP has work that's about to be published as a note
16:58:57 <timeless> ... is that containable?
16:58:59 <astearns> astearns has joined #html-wg
16:59:04 <timeless> SteveF: yes, that's containable, in a single section
16:59:10 <timeless> paulc: the first two are examples
16:59:14 <timeless> ... modules
16:59:18 <timeless> ... but the third one?
16:59:23 <timeless> darobin: i don't know about it...
16:59:27 <timeless> ... we'd have to discuss
16:59:32 <paulc> q+
16:59:39 <timeless> ... MikeSmith mentioned interleaving authoring conformance might not be a good idea
16:59:44 <timeless> ... perhaps have a separate document
16:59:56 <timeless> SteveF: i agree
17:00:03 <timeless> ... it's unclear what the best path forward for it is
17:00:09 <timeless> ... but we need to work out that path
17:00:13 <timeless> ack Travis
17:00:21 <timeless> Travis: rubys got me thinking a bit about a more practical route
17:00:23 <timeless> ... thanks rubys
17:00:27 <SteveF> q+
17:00:27 <timeless> ... as i look back over those bugs
17:00:31 <timeless> ... i recall one that jumped out at me
17:00:40 <timeless> ... implement a true tri-state checkbox
17:00:46 <timeless> ... not dual indeterminate
17:00:53 <timeless> ... that sounds like a great thing to be as a module
17:00:56 <timeless> ... hook it up
17:01:01 <timeless> ... then i thought, if you do that w/ bugs
17:01:05 <timeless> ... why not review what's in 5.1
17:01:08 <timeless> ... diff against 5.0
17:01:13 <timeless> ... look at things that are unique
17:01:21 <timeless> ... review, see if they could be moved out as modules
17:01:24 <plh> http://www.w3.org/html/landscape/#differences-between-w3c-html-5.1-and-w3c-html-5.0
17:01:30 <timeless> ... not spend the effort to rip the document apart
17:01:36 <timeless> ... but work on the parts we want to progress
17:01:41 <timeless> darobin: i think that makes sense
17:01:46 <timeless> ... we had a session yesterday as a breakout
17:01:55 <timeless> ... rubys suggested a continuously maintained
17:01:59 <timeless> ... 5.0.1 spec
17:02:04 <timeless> ... that shrinks as things move into modules
17:02:10 <timeless> ... we don't need to cut everything out
17:02:21 <plh> q+
17:02:22 <timeless> ... maybe we don't need a new spec for <p/>
17:02:22 <timeless> ... <form>s are a mess
17:02:30 <timeless> paulc: are they as bad as <ruby> ?
17:02:41 <timeless> ... scale of 1..<ruby>, how bad are <form>s?
17:02:46 <timeless> darobin: <form>s are bad
17:02:50 <timeless> ... most new types are unusable
17:03:00 <timeless> ... developers scream, like <select multiple>
17:03:04 <timeless> ack paulc
17:03:08 <timeless> paulc: i wanted to ask question
17:03:17 <timeless> ... stemming from Travis's Q about linkage to WHATWG
17:03:21 <timeless> ... but link to Qs here
17:03:23 <timeless> ... we have ~300 bugs
17:03:26 <timeless> ... looking at those
17:03:31 <darobin> q+
17:03:32 <timeless> ... talked about modularization
17:03:40 <timeless> ... where we want to do work/where there is work
17:03:47 <timeless> ... Q-- Hixie said don't copy my work
17:03:53 <timeless> ... what items are different in WHATWG spec
17:03:58 <timeless> ... than 5.0/5.1ED ?
17:04:04 <plh> http://www.w3.org/html/landscape/#differences-between-whatwg-html-ls-and-w3c-html-5.1
17:04:06 <timeless> ... enumerate places where we could find modules
17:04:18 <timeless> ... what are similar things in WHATWG that Hixie wouldn't want us to copy?
17:04:20 <rubys> http://www.w3.org/html/landscape/
17:04:39 <timeless> Travis: looking at this document would help
17:04:42 <timeless> ... canvas-proxy
17:04:52 <timeless> ... move canvas controller to WebWorker
17:04:58 <timeless> ... and drive from off thread
17:05:00 <timeless> darobin: we have that in 5.1
17:05:09 <timeless> Travis: but what is in WHATWG that aren't in 5.1?
17:05:17 <timeless> ... 3 months of work
17:05:19 <timeless> darobin: mostly bug fixes
17:05:21 <plh> q-
17:05:24 <timeless> paulc: so, bug fixes
17:05:30 <timeless> ... some might correlate w/ 288 bugs we have
17:05:40 <timeless> ... some might not correlate, things that Hixie has already fixed
17:05:53 <timeless> ... Hixie might have done new novel work on things in 5.1 or not
17:06:06 <timeless> ... maybe he moved canvas-proxy on substantially?
17:06:15 <timeless> ... then decide "do we want to work on canvas-proxy, or not?"
17:06:24 <Cyril> Cyril has joined #html-wg
17:06:25 <timeless> Travis: do we grandfather in things in 5.1 as "already copied?"
17:06:38 <Cyril> RRSAgent, pointer
17:06:38 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-irc#T17-06-38
17:06:40 <timeless> paulc: something WG has to decide, valid Q
17:06:42 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:06:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
17:06:50 <MarkVickers> q+
17:06:54 <timeless> paulc: specs is like any software engineering project, we have to triage
17:07:04 <timeless> rubys: we can walk through doc, or after 5
17:07:10 <timeless> paulc: can you show me in Landscape
17:07:25 <timeless> plh: click "2."
17:07:38 <timeless> rubys: first bullet isn't workitem, second isn't, third isn't, fourth isn't
17:07:40 <timeless> ... fifth is
17:07:50 <timeless> ... "Different ARIA role constraints"
17:07:57 <timeless> s/.../paulc:/
17:08:01 <timeless> ... but SteveF already mentioned
17:08:08 <timeless> [ Looser ]
17:08:11 <timeless> darobin: not a work item
17:08:14 <timeless> ... it's done
17:08:30 <timeless> paulc: longdesc, we know what's happening, extension spec
17:08:34 <timeless> ... tables, not a work item
17:08:41 <timeless> ... <main> element
17:08:43 <timeless> ... - not a workitem
17:08:58 <timeless> darobin: table-border, please let us not work on that
17:09:03 <timeless> paulc: chairs would agree
17:09:10 <timeless> ... SHOULD on <h..>
17:09:13 <timeless> darobin: work item
17:09:14 <timeless> ... but...
17:09:24 <timeless> ... a lot of those are authoring document conformance things
17:09:27 <timeless> ... perhaps as a module
17:09:29 <panzana`> panzana` has joined #html-wg
17:09:36 <timeless> paulc: task to put in front of ourselves
17:09:41 <tantek> hello #html-wg - sitting in second U-ring behind rubys
17:09:44 <timeless> ... take this content, have WG decide work on/isn't
17:09:56 <timeless> rubys: precursor, i think this list needs an update
17:10:03 <timeless> ... last updated June
17:10:08 <timeless> ... update list, triage list, publish
17:10:17 <timeless> q?
17:10:28 <timeless> ack SteveF
17:10:35 <timeless> SteveF: starting to get somewhat of a clearer idea
17:10:37 <darobin> ACTION: Robin to triage new WHATWG updates, HTML bugs, Landscape document in order to list priority content for modules
17:10:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-249 - Triage new whatwg updates, html bugs, landscape document in order to list priority content for modules [on Robin Berjon - due 2014-11-06].
17:10:39 <timeless> ... not really
17:10:43 <timeless> ... we have shipped HTML5.0
17:10:46 <timeless> ... we'll work on that
17:10:49 <timeless> ... in Errata
17:10:56 <timeless> ... that just includes non-normative bug fixes?
17:11:02 <Hitoshi__> Hitoshi__ has joined #html-wg
17:11:05 <timeless> rubys: everything's open for discussion
17:11:09 <timeless> ... you could make that as a proposal
17:11:16 <timeless> SteveF: we've got that document, do we maintain it
17:11:18 <timeless> ... or let it go?
17:11:26 <timeless> paulc: i'll answer that (maybe w3meme)
17:11:43 <timeless> ... Tuesday memed speaking for directory
17:11:49 <timeless> ... now memed for CEO?
17:11:56 <timeless> ... at AC meeting he said RRR
17:11:58 <tantek> tantek has joined #html-wg
17:12:04 <timeless> ... how we do that, it's up to us
17:12:11 <timeless> s/RRR/how we maintain stuff/
17:12:16 <hiroto> hiroto has joined #html-wg
17:12:20 <taku> taku has joined #html-wg
17:12:26 <timeless> SteveF: part of maintenance is to continue to pull in fixes from whatwg source
17:12:31 <timeless> ... not features. but bug fixes
17:12:46 <timeless> paulc: rubys can you find the text from Process document?
17:12:47 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #html-wg
17:13:33 <tantek> hello #html-wg - sitting in second U-ring behind rubys
17:13:37 <timeless> timeless: the Process document has an inconsistent set of topics
17:13:44 <timeless> ... for what updates are
17:13:49 <timeless> ... (Errata)
17:13:59 <timeless> ... there's work for Process 2015/2016
17:14:07 <timeless> ... but you're on an older Process
17:14:13 <timeless> SteveF: we have 5.0, and 5.1
17:14:17 <khoya> khoya has joined #html-wg
17:14:19 <timeless> ... we have a plan to ship 5.1 at some point
17:14:28 <timeless> ... why not see 5.1 as maintenance of 5.0
17:14:31 <tantek> q?
17:14:34 <timeless> ... pull things out of 5.1 as modules
17:14:35 <paulc> q+
17:14:42 <timeless> ... but continue to keep stuff current in 5.1
17:14:45 <timeless> ... that's currently in there
17:14:51 <timeless> ... but new work independently
17:14:56 <timeless> ack darobin
17:15:02 <timeless> darobin: several aspects
17:15:10 <timeless> ... i would not want to work off current 5.1 document
17:15:13 <timeless> ... if we can avoid it
17:15:19 <timeless> ... it has a million things we want to split out as modules
17:15:22 <tantek> q+ to formally propose "maintenance" release should only be bug fixes, and thus a 5.0.1. Anything anyone wants to keep in 5.1 which is new from 5.0 should be split out as modules.
17:15:24 <sunghan_> sunghan_ has joined #html-wg
17:15:29 <timeless> ... a million things that will never be implemented
17:15:36 <timeless> ... i think it'd be saner to work from CR branch
17:15:41 <timeless> ... re: what we take in as Errata
17:15:49 <timeless> ... up to whoever does the work, how deep we go
17:15:57 <timeless> ... suggest we not spend too much time on non-normative
17:16:00 <timeless> ... focus on solid bugs
17:16:02 <tantek> +1 on focus on *normative* maintenance
17:16:06 <timeless> ... make Errata for them and release that
17:16:19 <timeless> ... make job simpler by dropping entire Canvas from source document
17:16:32 <timeless> ... we aren't producing that, Canvas TF doesn't generate from that branch anyway
17:16:35 <timeless> ... and similar
17:16:41 <timeless> ... -- one thing i've been keeping in mind
17:16:49 <Zefa> Zefa has joined #html-wg
17:16:49 <tantek> +1 to darobin points about 5.1 has too much in it. Saner to work from CR branch.
17:16:53 <timeless> ... we can no longer merge from WHATWG/master -- too far away
17:17:01 <timeless> ... but might want to be notified about bug fixes
17:17:06 <timeless> ... various ways to be notified
17:17:14 <timeless> ... we can apply a similar fix
17:17:22 <timeless> rubys: several people nodded
17:17:32 <timeless> darobin: editors nodding (maybe falling asleep?)
17:17:35 <timeless> ack MarkVickers
17:17:41 <tantek> strong agreement with darobin's proposals
17:17:45 <timeless> MarkVickers: "do not copy whatwg work" comment concerns me
17:17:50 <rubys> q+
17:17:51 <timeless> ... i see great opportunity
17:18:00 <timeless> ... but at some point, things have to come together as one spec
17:18:03 <timeless> ... in order to have one web
17:18:14 <timeless> ... it seems we have two specs, and we're splitting the web
17:18:21 <timeless> ... what i saw in what darobin wrote
17:18:26 <timeless> ... is very small modules
17:18:48 <timeless> ... software depo level, each numbered section is a small file
17:18:48 <timeless> ... check out 4.7.10.2
17:18:48 <timeless> ... add a new file for new number representing a new project
17:18:58 <timeless> ... instead saying what we think is 5.1
17:19:02 <timeless> ... and working
17:19:06 <timeless> ... instead have a clock-based
17:19:14 <timeless> ... what things have reached agreed upon threshold
17:19:17 <timeless> ... say 2 implementations
17:19:22 <timeless> ... say "April 1" release
17:19:25 <timeless> ... is those things
17:19:25 <paulc> q-
17:19:29 <paulc> q+
17:19:35 <timeless> ... have those things w/ same force of IP commitments
17:19:37 <darobin> q+
17:19:39 <timeless> ... just more clock driven
17:19:41 <ArtB> ArtB has joined #html-wg
17:19:45 <timeless> ... each piece working independently
17:19:51 <timeless> ... some work by whatwg, some by groups in w3c
17:19:58 <SteveF> q+
17:20:04 <timeless> ... but that would imply that they'd come back together as a document
17:20:05 <timeless> q?
17:20:08 <timeless> ack tantek
17:20:08 <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to formally propose "maintenance" release should only be bug fixes, and thus a 5.0.1. Anything anyone wants to keep in 5.1 which is new from 5.0 should be split
17:20:09 <jerome> jerome has joined #html-wg
17:20:12 <Zakim> ... out as modules.
17:20:14 <timeless> tantek: Tantek Celik, Mozilla
17:20:21 <timeless> ... darobin covered what i wanted to say
17:20:22 <timeless> ... very reasonable
17:20:28 <timeless> ... maybe i should go back to AB meeting
17:20:40 <timeless> ... which is simultaneously discussing Errata Process
17:20:45 <timeless> ... apparent size
17:20:53 <timeless> darobin: Differences or Landscape?
17:20:58 <timeless> tantek: yes, Landscape
17:21:01 <timeless> [ Projects Landscape ]
17:21:11 <timeless> tantek: the more that can be shrunk by whatever means
17:21:19 <timeless> ... normative differences/purely informative differences
17:21:22 <timeless> ... the better
17:21:37 <timeless> ... look forward to features being added to HTML Spec via Extension
17:21:41 <timeless> ... preferably CC-by
17:21:45 <timeless> darobin: we can
17:21:51 <timeless> tantek: i'm expressing my preference
17:21:52 <timeless> q?
17:21:55 <tantek> given that CC-by is the most liberal option we have
17:21:55 <timeless> ack rubys
17:22:00 <timeless> rubys: we got a request to not-copy
17:22:05 <timeless> ... we have content under CC-0
17:22:12 <timeless> ... people are working out if that makes sense or not
17:22:15 <timeless> ... like people here
17:22:26 <timeless> ... if someone says "we should copy" "we should not copy"
17:22:32 <tantek> obviously I'd rather have CC0 but we're not there yet, and I'm actively working on trying to make that a possibility at the AB level
17:22:34 <timeless> MarkVickers: i thought i was making concrete proposal
17:22:42 <timeless> ... if things are in small enough units
17:22:59 <timeless> ... we'd hopefully get to the point where people are two different groups working on checkouts from the same github
17:23:06 <timeless> ... and at some point it would be copied, and brought back in
17:23:12 <SteveF> +1 to tantek on CCO
17:23:14 <timeless> ... you'd have one build at the end
17:23:26 <timeless> rubys: thanks, you said work together and copy
17:23:28 <tantek> Thank you SteveF - that's useful input for the AB.
17:23:31 <timeless> ... another was work together and point
17:23:44 <timeless> MarkVickers: work together
17:23:52 <tantek> s/CCO/CC0/g
17:23:58 <timeless> ... at some point we want to be able to say "this is work recommended by W3C as HTML"
17:24:03 <timeless> ... implementer or using it
17:24:08 <timeless> ... whether you point or not
17:24:13 <SteveF> whatever tantek was referring to :-)
17:24:17 <timeless> ... the user needs the output
17:24:30 <timeless> MarkVickers: all documents should be together at one place
17:24:34 <timeless> ... i don't want confusion
17:24:34 <paulc> Paul wants to point to http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/
17:24:37 <timeless> rubys: thanks
17:24:39 <timeless> q?
17:24:43 <timeless> ack paulc
17:24:56 <timeless> [ Projects TR/html5 ]
17:25:05 <timeless> paulc: plh and i discussed this before the meeting
17:25:11 <timeless> ... we have dated version, latest version
17:25:18 <timeless> ... latest version of html
17:25:22 <timeless> ... different from normal recs
17:25:30 <timeless> ... 1) we aren't the only WG working on Extensions to HTML5
17:25:36 <timeless> ... we have EME, MSE, longdesc, ...
17:25:43 <timeless> ... but WebPerf WG is doing extensions
17:25:53 <timeless> ... much of WebApps at API level are Extensions
17:25:56 <timeless> ... one thing we could do
17:26:01 <timeless> ... click on "latest version of html"
17:26:08 <timeless> ... instead of a single document
17:26:14 <timeless> ... take you to a page listing various modules
17:26:16 <plh> -q?
17:26:20 <timeless> ... both from HTML WG and other placs
17:26:28 <timeless> s/placs/places/
17:26:34 <Cyril> +1, that's what CSS does
17:26:36 <timeless> ... I have a terrible time speaking of what HTML5 is
17:26:42 <timeless> ... people think it's the Web Platform
17:26:45 <timeless> darobin: lost battle
17:26:48 <timeless> ... we should admit defeat
17:26:52 <timeless> paulc: thank you
17:27:07 <timeless> ... maybe HTML could take you to a list of modules, extension specs, whatever you'd want to work to
17:27:19 <glazou> glazou: as I said yesterday, you won’t change journalists on that
17:27:22 <timeless> ... could even point to things that whatwg were working on that we agreed that we weren't working on
17:27:33 <Cyril> q+
17:27:35 <timeless> ... maybe the problem is that we don't have a definitive list
17:27:42 <timeless> ... to define what we're working on/what they're working on
17:27:51 <timeless> ... it's an idea that plh and I just talked about
17:27:58 <timeless> ... but maybe plh should speak to this
17:28:03 <timeless> ... maybe it was an insurance policy
17:28:10 <timeless> plh: 2 years ago, one of the problems i was facing
17:28:16 <timeless> ... was "what does CSS3 mean?"
17:28:23 <timeless> ... my boss, jeff came in and said
17:28:36 <timeless> ... "i've been talking about CSS3 for a long time, but where is our CSS3 spec?"
17:28:40 <timeless> ... we don't have a CSS3 spec
17:28:45 <tantek> I note that glazou doesn't appear to be in the room. ;)
17:28:46 <timeless> ... and CSS WG knows what they're talking about
17:28:56 <timeless> ... problem is that the web doesn't understand
17:29:09 <timeless> ... If i said "CSS3 doesn't exist", people would look at me and say "what do you mean?"
17:29:18 <timeless> ... HTML, I thought, we'll have the same problem down the road
17:29:27 <timeless> ... i thought if we had a thing
17:29:36 <timeless> ... CSS had a CSS snapshot 2007, 2010
17:29:40 <timeless> ... it didn't really work
17:29:47 <timeless> ... not really interested in publishing a new snapshot
17:29:53 <timeless> ... I did Extensible Web Summit in September
17:30:00 <timeless> ... one of CSS Editors said
17:30:14 <timeless> ... I'd take the HTML spec and modularize
17:30:21 <timeless> ... and every time we updated a module
17:30:24 <timeless> ... i'd
17:30:33 <timeless> ... say "this is the module they should look at"
17:30:37 <timeless> ... that's why i said to darobin
17:30:44 <timeless> ... i don't know what it would look like
17:30:48 <timeless> ... but let's have a link
17:30:54 <timeless> ... and figure out what to put on that page later on
17:31:01 <min> min has joined #html-wg
17:31:01 <timeless> ... i don't think it will point you to a W3C REC
17:31:04 <timeless> ... but to a ToC
17:31:08 <paulc> Response to plh: http://www.w3.org/TR/
17:31:12 <timeless> ... that tells you "this is what we know about HTML"
17:31:14 <timeless> q?
17:31:24 <timeless> paulc: click on link to /TR/
17:31:28 <timeless> [ Projects /TR/ ]
17:31:35 <timeless> paulc: this page,
17:31:43 <timeless> ... was done at the last time the /TR/ page was reoganized
17:31:46 <tomoyuki> tomoyuki has joined #html-wg
17:31:47 <timeless> ... and click on "HTML"
17:31:49 <timeless> ... you get this page
17:31:56 <timeless> rubys: some relevant, some not as much
17:32:06 <timeless> paulc: curious how this is similar/different to what you're proposing
17:32:12 <timeless> ... notice it's just a #frag off /TR/
17:32:19 <timeless> [ /TR/#tr_HTML ]
17:32:22 <timeless> plh: different
17:32:26 <timeless> ... i'm proposing a ToC
17:32:33 <timeless> ... some [here] are relevant, some are not
17:32:37 <rubys> q+
17:32:42 <timeless> ... if the group has one answer/how to have the best answer possible
17:32:43 <tantek> paulc: shows http://www.w3.org/TR/#tr_HTML
17:32:52 <timeless> ... this group should be the best answer
17:32:58 <timeless> ... and if someone asks what should it be
17:33:06 <timeless> paulc: if you click on CSS
17:33:14 <rubys> q?
17:33:17 <timeless> ... that wasn't the answer to jeff's Q
17:33:24 <timeless> paulc: this was a reengineering of /TR/
17:33:29 <timeless> ... i tried to keep it up to date, it's a pain
17:33:31 <timeless> ack darobin
17:33:35 <timeless> darobin: back to MarkVickers 's point
17:33:39 <timeless> ... you mentioned collaboration
17:33:41 <timeless> ... and i'm in favor
17:33:49 <timeless> ... but collaboration takes two sides
17:33:55 <timeless> ... we can't say "hey, let's collaborate"
17:33:55 <tantek> would it be useful to comment on evolution of notions of CSS3 -> CSS Module Level 3 -> CSS Module Level 1 ?
17:33:57 <timeless> ... my thinking is
17:34:01 <timeless> ... let's do this right
17:34:08 <timeless> ... if collaboration works, great
17:34:16 <timeless> ... if not, at least, we're doing things the way it should be done
17:34:29 <timeless> ... and maybe people will say "hey, they're doing the right thing"
17:34:33 <timeless> ... "and we should talk"
17:34:40 <timeless> ... hopefully we can remove as much friction as possible
17:34:46 <timeless> ... but it isn't something we can decree by fiat
17:34:53 <timeless> ... small modules, clock-based, i like both
17:35:00 <timeless> ... reluctant to split spec into lots of small modules
17:35:07 <timeless> ... no matter how good it would be in long term
17:35:14 <timeless> ... i'd rather do this organically
17:35:19 <timeless> ... anytime someone wants to work on the spec
17:35:30 <timeless> ... "sure, let me extract it, fork it, submit patches"
17:35:37 <timeless> ... some sections, may never touch
17:35:43 <timeless> ... <p>, <i>, <b>, <div>
17:35:47 <timeless> [ grimmaces ]
17:35:50 <timeless> [ laughter ]
17:35:57 <timeless> darobin: some will never be touched any-time soon
17:36:02 <timeless> ... clock based
17:36:06 <timeless> ... ties into One Web
17:36:14 <timeless> ... another fundamental is One-Test-Suite
17:36:25 <timeless> s/grimmaces/grimaces/
17:36:33 <timeless> ... if you have two specs, how do you ...
17:36:39 <timeless> ... but Test-Suite is closer to metal
17:36:46 <timeless> ... informs you how implementers are making progres
17:36:50 <timeless> s/res/ress/
17:36:56 <timeless> ... we've been pretty good at managing our test suite
17:37:09 <timeless> ... Test group pretty impressive given its utter lack of resources
17:37:17 <timeless> ... every year, run test suite, whatever passes sufficiently
17:37:22 <tantek> I see glazou running through the room!
17:37:25 <timeless> ... say ~90% of very complete test suite
17:37:33 <timeless> ... anything passes test, goes to REC
17:37:35 <timeless> ... do every year
17:37:38 <MarkVickers> +1
17:37:40 <timeless> ... instead of multi-year plans
17:37:43 <rubys> q+ glazou
17:37:46 <timeless> ... and specs that takes years to go to rec
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17:37:48 <timeless> ack SteveF
17:37:53 <timeless> SteveF: ok
17:37:57 <timeless> ... i like modularization
17:38:11 <timeless> ... i hate multiple amounts of boilerplate
17:38:17 <timeless> ... boilerplate **** that i don't want to read
17:38:20 <timeless> ... harder to understand
17:38:28 <timeless> ... using new features of HTML5/5.0
17:38:31 <timeless> ... <details>
17:38:34 <kurosawa_> kurosawa_ has joined #html-wg
17:38:35 <timeless> ... to make spec more usable
17:38:43 <timeless> ... not hugely popular
17:38:49 <timeless> ... an important audience of spec
17:38:52 <timeless> ... is developer audience
17:38:54 <timeless> ... people who use it
17:39:01 <timeless> ... primary audience appears to be browser vendors
17:39:05 <paulc> q?
17:39:10 <timeless> ... but everyone keeps telling us that they don't look at W3C spec
17:39:13 <timeless> ... if they don't
17:39:21 <MikeSmith> q?
17:39:24 <timeless> ... (and it's not exactly true, it depends on which bits)
17:39:36 <timeless> ... if that's a separate audience, we should focus on making the spec good for the other audience
17:39:38 <timeless> ... other point
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17:39:43 <timeless> ... idea of collaboration
17:39:48 <timeless> ... i don't see any collaboration
17:39:55 <timeless> ... i'd like to have it in the future
17:40:06 <timeless> ... but as long as we continue to work on HTML, i see the possibility is very small
17:40:09 <timeless> ... i'd like to work on it
17:40:15 <timeless> ... i see lots of people
17:40:21 <timeless> ... but we're not very engaging
17:40:27 <timeless> ... there needs to be some engaging
17:40:32 <timeless> ... i've tried many times
17:40:36 <timeless> ... but we need to continue
17:40:40 <timeless> ... we need to work something out
17:40:49 <timeless> ... we can't pretend things are working, because they're not
17:40:51 <timeless> ack Cyril
17:41:02 <timeless> Cyril: i like the idea of /TR/html/ that points to modules/extensions
17:41:13 <timeless> ... TT WG is considering the same for TTML
17:41:20 <timeless> ... should be clear what "published versions" means
17:41:27 <timeless> ... because it isn't clear to public what it means
17:41:40 <timeless> ... might be helpful to clarify "latest published, latest version"
17:41:40 <timeless> q?
17:41:42 <timeless> ack rubys
17:41:58 <tantek__> tantek__ has joined #html-wg
17:42:12 <timeless> rubys: 1) we talked about a new landing for /TR/html/
17:42:19 <timeless> ... i didn't hear talk about versioning of that
17:42:23 <timeless> ... would we version it?
17:42:27 <timeless> ... last year, this year
17:42:30 <timeless> ... process for updating it?
17:42:35 <timeless> ... does WG come to consensus
17:42:38 <timeless> ... point to stuff outside WG
17:42:43 <timeless> ... 2) darobin, SteveF
17:42:46 <timeless> ... collaboration
17:42:52 <timeless> ... we need to figure out what we want to do
17:42:57 <plh> plh has joined #html-wg
17:43:01 <timeless> ... SteveF pointed out difficulties w/ working w/ whatwg
17:43:11 <timeless> ... I work in IETF
17:43:15 <timeless> ... i'm trying w/ URL
17:43:18 <timeless> ... i'm going where work is
17:43:21 <timeless> ... in theory it's open
17:43:26 <timeless> ... if i can disprove that, it's useful knowledge
17:43:33 <timeless> ... if it's open, we'll learn from that
17:44:01 <timeless> glazou: Daniel Glazman, Cochair CSS WG
17:44:06 <tantek> publishing snapshots and maintaining that was too hard
17:44:11 <timeless> ... we tried publishing CSS snapshot page
17:44:16 <timeless> ... via REC track
17:44:18 <timeless> ... was too hard
17:44:27 <tantek> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work is now maintained semi-manually
17:44:27 <timeless> ... looking at dev.w3.org wgs
17:44:36 <timeless> ... to help doing that
17:44:43 <timeless> ... there are new publishing tools that whatwg is preparing
17:44:50 <timeless> ... plh mentioned single click to publish
17:44:53 <timeless> ... to publish WD
17:45:01 <timeless> ... in CSSWG we decided to base on WG consensus
17:45:08 <renmin> renmin has joined #html-wg
17:45:13 <timeless> ... some Editors in the Group wanted to be able to publish at their own discretion
17:45:19 <timeless> ... there's some reluctance in the WG
17:45:22 <timeless> ... we prefer consensus
17:45:29 <timeless> ... discussion, review if needed, then reply
17:45:35 <timeless> ... 2) testsuites mentioned by darobin
17:45:41 <timeless> ... we have 60 docs on the radar in CSS WG
17:45:44 <timeless> ... that's a lot
17:45:51 <timeless> ... it's really good, not everyone is interested in every part
17:45:56 <timeless> ... each implementer is different
17:46:00 <timeless> ... some aren't browser vendors
17:46:08 <timeless> ... there's a batch-processor vendor
17:46:12 <timeless> ... they don't care about animations
17:46:21 <timeless> ... that modularization implies specifilization
17:46:30 <timeless> ... test suites are per spec
17:46:35 <timeless> ... we don't have a single suite
17:46:46 <timeless> ... darobin i don't think what you want is doable because of collisions
17:46:53 <timeless> ... one single light spec about replaced-elements in html
17:46:57 <timeless> ... don't care about collisions
17:47:03 <timeless> ... because otherwise, you'll have ETA of 2032
17:47:08 <timeless> ... it is not feasibile
17:47:13 <timeless> ... 3) fast track process in CSSWG
17:47:20 <tantek> replaced elements and not care about collisions? what about <input type=image> ?
17:47:21 <timeless> ... when we have a module that does not progress fast enough
17:47:34 <timeless> ... but one or two features in the module are evolving faster than the rest
17:47:43 <timeless> ... w/ consensus of the group, that can be extracted from the document
17:47:46 <timeless> ... fast track that
17:47:47 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
17:47:53 <timeless> ... progress faster, and get it to the public
17:48:00 <timeless> ... you can say it creates another document, wrong, bad
17:48:04 <timeless> ... but it works really well
17:48:08 <timeless> ... even w/ large number of documents
17:48:13 <timeless> ... we have 30-40 active contributors
17:48:18 <timeless> ... this could help the HTML WG
17:48:22 <timeless> paulc: time check
17:48:26 <timeless> ... 30 mins for coffee break
17:48:44 <timeless> ... i'll seek PF members from SVG WG
17:48:53 <timeless> ... we'll continue in second slot this afternoon
17:49:03 <timeless> ... maybe darobin we could try to make a scratchpad list of things we talked about doing
17:49:15 <timeless> ... sketch, figure out if we could assign to editorial team/chairs
17:49:21 <timeless> ... rubys "let's get practical"
17:49:28 <timeless> ... Josh_Soref 's notes are pretty good here
17:49:30 <timeless> ... things to do
17:49:31 <tantek> Aside: I'm happy to help provide history, guidance, answer questions about CSS modularization experience, as I'm sure glazou is as well. If you're curious how CSSWG has done modularization, please find either of us and ask us, happy to share publicly. Thank you.
17:49:34 <timeless> ... let's build a plan here
17:49:46 <timeless> ... even if items aren't double-clickable
17:49:59 <timeless> ... thanks Josh_Soref as usual
17:50:01 <timeless> [ Applause ]
17:50:06 <timeless> [ Break until 11:15 am ]
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17:58:31 <timeless> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
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18:02:35 <rubys> zalim, who is on the phone?
18:02:42 <rubys> zakim, who is on the phone?
18:02:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see Santabarbara
18:02:43 <Zakim> Santabarbara has rubys, paulc, timeless, MikeSmith, darobin
18:03:02 <timeless> Zakim, timeless has left Santabarbara
18:03:02 <Zakim> -timeless; got it
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18:12:17 <timeless> topic: Accessibility w/ PF WG
18:12:26 <renmin_> renmin_ has joined #html-wg
18:12:28 <timeless> Zakim, timeless has entered Santabarbara
18:12:28 <Zakim> +timeless; got it
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18:15:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html MichaelC
18:15:40 <timeless> paulc: wiki has Part 1
18:15:46 <timeless> ... Joint w/ PF + SVG
18:15:54 <timeless> ... request for 60 mins
18:15:59 <Cyril> Cyril has joined #html-wg
18:16:07 <timeless> ... taxonomy for 30-6 mins pref not on thu afternoon
18:16:10 <timeless> ... Part 2
18:16:14 <timeless> ... name computation and the lik
18:16:17 <timeless> s/lik/like/
18:16:25 <timeless> janina: we don't have a need for that (drop)
18:16:32 <timeless> paulc: accesskey improvements (shane)
18:16:38 <timeless> ... captcha wd update (janina)
18:16:43 <timeless> janina: no
18:16:56 <timeless> ... drop mine
18:17:00 <timeless> ... not sure about shane
18:17:07 <timeless> paulc: doesn't surprise me
18:17:26 <shoko> shoko has joined #html-wg
18:17:30 <timeless> ... so i believe Fri Afternoon for A11y part 2 after Coffee gets dropped
18:17:35 <timeless> janina: i believe so
18:17:36 <mihnea_____> mihnea_____ has joined #html-wg
18:17:40 <timeless> paulc: third area
18:17:48 <timeless> ... joint PF w/ DpugID and CSS WG
18:17:52 <hjlee> hjlee has joined #html-wg
18:17:54 <timeless> ... we've scheduled that for 4pm this afternoon
18:17:56 <timeless> janina: we need that
18:18:08 <timeless> paulc: we've added an update to that item an update on where the <canvas> TF is
18:18:12 <Hitoshi> Hitoshi has joined #html-wg
18:18:18 <timeless> ... we were expecting that to be reasonably short
18:18:25 <timeless> ... we wanted the PF / A11y experts to be in the room
18:18:28 <timeless> ... that means we're on topic
18:18:34 <timeless> ... so, now to A11y Part 1
18:18:37 <forty4> forty4 has joined #html-wg
18:18:39 <timeless> ... 11:15am-1pm
18:18:42 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #html-wg
18:18:45 <timeless> ... then we break to lunch until two
18:19:04 <timeless> s|topic: Accessibility w/ PF WG|topic: Scheduling|
18:19:22 <timeless> janina: thank you paulc, and html wg
18:19:24 <timeless> ... for PF
18:19:35 <timeless> ... our meeting w/ Dig, we'll meet in their space
18:19:42 <timeless> ... i don't know which cities in this hall
18:19:46 <timeless> ... we meet @2pm in their space
18:19:47 <timeless> ... SVG
18:19:58 <timeless> topic: SVG and Graphics taxonomy
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18:20:04 <timeless> Rich__: joint TF between SVG and PF
18:20:10 <timeless> ... i'll be chairing w/ Fred Esch
18:20:18 <timeless> ... we're creating API interop specs
18:20:23 <timeless> ... for HTML and SVG
18:20:26 <timeless> ... and name computation
18:20:29 <timeless> ... going
18:20:42 <timeless> ... moving to map semantics across both languages to A11y service layers
18:20:50 <timeless> ... and create taxonomy better suited for graphics
18:20:57 <timeless> ... A11y/ARIA has <widget>s
18:21:05 <timeless> ... <region>s, <landmark>s
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18:21:12 <timeless> ... but we don't have a good way to describe graphics
18:21:19 <timeless> ... it hasn't been given attention in years
18:21:23 <timeless> ... do it right this time
18:21:27 <timeless> ... charts, STEM graphics
18:21:33 <timeless> ... also, Connector spec
18:21:43 <timeless> ... between different objects, a Flow diagram
18:21:46 <timeless> ... doing this for SVG
18:21:52 <timeless> ... also applicable to HTML5 <canvas>
18:22:01 <timeless> ... also developers create drawings w/ CSS+js on HTML
18:22:08 <timeless> ... taxonomy applicable to that area as well
18:22:23 <timeless> ... if UCs that we have for HTML that we haven't addressed, we'd like to hear about them
18:22:29 <timeless> ... also, Connector spec in SVG
18:22:35 <timeless> ... Connector between two objects
18:22:40 <timeless> ... explicitly declared for SVG
18:22:45 <timeless> ... not sure how to do for HTML
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18:22:49 <timeless> ... also affects Navigation
18:22:55 <timeless> ... keyboard navigation in HTML tabindex=
18:23:00 <hiroto> hiroto has joined #html-wg
18:23:04 <timeless> ... <tab>
18:23:05 <joanie> joanie has joined #html-wg
18:23:08 <timeless> ... but sometimes you need to give users options of where to go
18:23:10 <sunghan> sunghan has joined #html-wg
18:23:11 <timeless> ... we'll explore
18:23:14 <timeless> ... it's largely for SVG
18:23:18 <timeless> ... but how to apply to html
18:23:27 <timeless> fred: ARIA flowto=
18:23:39 <timeless> Rich__: <connector> in html?
18:23:39 <taku> taku has joined #html-wg
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18:23:41 <timeless> ... dual purpose
18:23:45 <timeless> ... author gets things for free?
18:23:51 <timeless> ... is that something to look to in HTML?
18:23:54 <timeless> ... in future versions
18:23:57 <timeless> ... or limit to SVG?
18:24:05 <timeless> ... bring up spec/drop link?
18:24:27 <timeless> katie: Katie Harrito-Shea
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18:24:36 <timeless> ... could that be used in context for 3D/navigation?
18:24:39 <timeless> [ groans ]
18:24:45 <timeless> Rich__: 3D is around WebGL
18:24:49 <timeless> ... it isn't declarative
18:24:57 <timeless> ... i know Google is using WebGL for maps.google.com
18:25:01 <MichaelC> s/Harrito/Haritos/
18:25:03 <timeless> ... another exploration area
18:25:13 <timeless> paulc: lots of words, you need to give us pointers
18:25:19 <timeless> ... have you started discussing public-html@
18:25:29 <timeless> Rich__: no, we just started discussing today w/ CSS
18:25:36 <timeless> paulc: you had a meeting before this meeting
18:25:50 <timeless> Rich__: Q1. specific semantics to include in taxonomy that people use in HTML today?
18:25:53 <SteveF> q+
18:25:57 <timeless> ... Q2. create <connector> in HTML?
18:26:01 <timeless> ... or just focus on SVG?
18:26:07 <timeless> ... taking task for HTML
18:26:17 <timeless> ... specs are becoming closer and closer aligned
18:26:26 <Santabarbara> q- glazou
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18:26:35 <Travis> q+
18:26:51 <timeless> paulc: to Q1
18:26:54 <timeless> ... for what?
18:27:14 <timeless> shepazu: Doug Sheppers, W3C, a Staff Contact for SVG
18:27:23 <timeless> ... i'm a were-- err, no i'm a simple villager
18:27:27 <timeless> ... look at a Bar chart
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18:27:34 <timeless> ... axes, legend, bars (indicate values)
18:27:41 <timeless> ... other data visualizations have similar things
18:27:55 <timeless> ... breaking those things to constituent parts
18:28:03 <timeless> Rich__: ARIA has Grid, Checkbox, Tree
18:28:18 <timeless> shepazu: checkbox has element that is checkbox, mark for checkbox, label
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18:28:24 <timeless> ... you can describe those in ARIA
18:28:34 <timeless> ... if you make your own checkbox rather than <input type=checkbox>
18:28:57 <timeless> ... similarly, if you make a barchart, you'd be able to identify tick-marks, ranges, in ARIA
18:29:04 <timeless> ... a taxonomy of data visualizations
18:29:14 <timeless> ... SVG can draw anything, but we're talking about a taxonomy
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18:29:17 <timeless> q?
18:29:23 <timeless> ack SteveF
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18:29:28 <timeless> SteveF: comment to SVG/PF/...
18:29:34 <timeless> ... when we're discussing this stuff
18:29:40 <timeless> ... if this is brought to html wg
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18:29:49 <timeless> ... i'd ask this be discussed on public-html@w3.org
18:29:57 <timeless> ... rather than the TF list
18:30:04 <timeless> ... the TF is a subset
18:30:14 <timeless> ... but we want to draw as many experts as possibl
18:30:18 <timeless> s/ibl/ible/
18:30:22 <shepazu_> Connectors are here... http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/connector/SVGConnector.html and http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CONNECTORS/index.xhtml
18:30:25 <timeless> ... but we want to draw people to it
18:30:41 <timeless> janina: HTML A11y TF is not a TF at play
18:30:47 <timeless> ... this is a new TF between PF+SVG
18:30:52 <timeless> ... if we take all discussion to HTML list
18:30:58 <timeless> ... if that's what you're discussing
18:31:16 <timeless> SteveF: just use public-html@ not a11y list when you bring things to HTML
18:31:17 <timeless> q?
18:31:18 <timeless> ack Travis
18:31:27 <timeless> Travis: we had a great meeting now that HTML5 is a REC
18:31:34 <timeless> ... 1. taking a more modular approach
18:31:45 <timeless> ... we welcome these contributions to the HTML family of language
18:31:56 <timeless> ... but we probably wouldn't be in the core document
18:32:04 <timeless> ... HTML's SVG is exclusively in the parser
18:32:06 <shepazu_> q+
18:32:15 <timeless> ... the rest of it probably wouldn't have a relation to the document
18:32:19 <timeless> ack shepazu_
18:32:20 <zcorpan_> q+
18:32:24 <timeless> s/shepazu_/shepazu/G
18:32:33 <timeless> shepazu_: there's another aspect of SVG/A11y
18:32:45 <timeless> ... larger, how we integrate <SVG> in <HTML>
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18:33:03 <timeless> ... you can reference external an external .svg file w/ <img src=http:/// >
18:33:10 <timeless> ... <SVG> is like <HTML> but for graphics
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18:33:40 <timeless> ... you might have <path>, <circle>, <rect>
18:33:42 <timeless> ... it's markup
18:33:46 <timeless> ... just like <html>
18:33:57 <timeless> ... you can now include it inline in <html>
18:34:06 <timeless> ... right now, <svg> is treated as something very separate
18:34:17 <timeless> ... and <html> in <svg> has to be included in a wrapper called <foreignContent>
18:34:27 <sunghan__> sunghan__ has joined #html-wg
18:34:28 <timeless> ... we'd like to see <html> inside <svg> w/ a closer relation
18:34:37 <timeless> ... many people who use HTML and SVG together would like to see that
18:34:44 <timeless> ... SVG is often used w/ D3
18:34:49 <kurosawa> s/foreignContent/foreignObject/
18:35:02 <timeless> paulc: where is that joining defined?
18:35:08 <timeless> shepazu_: sort of defined
18:35:15 <timeless> ... it doesn't cover sizings
18:35:26 <timeless> ... but it needs more definition
18:35:31 <timeless> paulc: where would that be done?
18:35:36 <Cyril> https://svgwg.org/specs/integration/
18:35:38 <timeless> shepazu_: we have a document called SVG Integration
18:36:04 <timeless> i|where is that joining defined|-> http://d3js.org/ Data-Driven Documents|
18:36:28 <timeless> shepazu_: <object>, <iframe>, <img>, css background:()
18:36:34 <timeless> ... i used to have <embed>
18:36:41 <timeless> ... it doesn't have <html:svg>
18:36:53 <timeless> paulc: scroll up to top
18:36:58 <timeless> ... FPWD from April
18:37:04 <timeless> ... what impact does this have on HTML spec?
18:37:13 <timeless> shepazu_: exclusively talking about SVG and its context
18:37:23 <timeless> ... we're proposing that it would also cover inline svg
18:37:30 <timeless> dirk: it doesn't right now
18:37:38 <timeless> paulc: at that point, it would interact more w/ the current hook
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18:37:49 <timeless> shepazu_: the current parser hook
18:37:56 <timeless> ... we'd like to first class citizen <html>
18:38:01 <timeless> ... rather than have <forentObject>
18:38:07 <timeless> s/ent/eign/
18:38:12 <timeless> ... we'd like to have <svg:html>
18:38:18 <timeless> ... which would be an html root
18:38:20 <jnurthen> jnurthen has joined #html-wg
18:38:25 <timeless> ... inside that you could put html content
18:38:30 <timeless> ... good idea? bad idea?
18:38:41 <timeless> ... possibly having <html:circle> merging HTML/SVG
18:38:43 <Cyril> s/forentObject/foreignObject/
18:38:59 <timeless> paulc: if you're adding taxonomy to SVG
18:39:11 <timeless> ... and create more increasing link
18:39:15 <timeless> ... you'll inherit that
18:39:17 <timeless> shepazu_: yes
18:39:22 <timeless> q?
18:39:24 <timeless> s|s/forentObject/foreignObject/||
18:39:33 <timeless> ack zcorpan_
18:39:42 <timeless> zcorpan_: Simon, KKW
18:39:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #html-wg
18:39:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
18:39:52 <timeless> ... bring up a point Travis mentioned
18:40:01 <timeless> ... new attribute/element affects parser
18:40:07 <timeless> ... but it only applies if it has uppercase
18:40:16 <timeless> ... if it's just lowercase, it doesn't affect the parser
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18:40:21 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:40:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
18:40:41 <timeless> shepazu_: and we will not use Uppercase
18:40:49 <timeless> ... we'll lowercase everything from now on
18:40:52 <timeless> ... we swear
18:40:58 <timeless> [ he's lying ]
18:41:09 <timeless> [ he's a werwolf ]
18:41:18 <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: we have declarative tabindex
18:41:20 <timeless> ... sharing
18:41:23 <shepazu_> s/we'd like to have <svg:html>/we'd like to have an <html> element in SVG/
18:41:23 <timeless> ... more seemless
18:41:27 <timeless> ... we have <iframe>
18:41:37 <timeless> shepazu_:  i don't remember current status
18:41:51 <timeless> ed: i think we do have that
18:42:00 <timeless> ... we have a topic for SVG WG agenda to discuss that integration
18:42:16 <timeless> ed: Eric Dahlstrom, SVG cochair
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18:42:18 <gitbot> [13html] 15darobin pushed 2 new commits to 06whatwg: 02https://github.com/w3c/html/compare/c7b287ef2e8a...45d62861f2d1
18:42:18 <gitbot> 13html/06whatwg 1409c8c7a 15Ian Hickson: [e] (0) typo in :matches() argument...
18:42:18 <gitbot> 13html/06whatwg 1445d6286 15Robin Berjon: Merge remote branch 'origin/master' into whatwg
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18:42:21 <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: let's try to coordinate
18:42:26 <timeless> ... we're doing it for A11y, but...
18:42:39 <timeless> paulc: i've heard noone answer "Do we have a taxonomy?"
18:42:45 <timeless> ... i'll say "we don't"
18:42:49 <timeless> shepazu_: we know you don't have one
18:43:07 <timeless> ... we're wondering if you guys are open to the idea of merging <svg> elements into <html>
18:43:15 <timeless> paulc: if we did that, we'd inherit that taxonomy
18:43:21 <timeless> shepazu_: taxonomy would be in ARIA
18:43:21 <jongund_> jongund_ has joined #html-wg
18:43:32 <timeless> ... you could do taxonomy w/ a barchart using divs/canvas
18:43:34 <timeless> ... flash
18:43:38 <timeless> ... silverlight
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18:43:46 <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: taxonomy
18:43:49 <timeless> ... <connector>
18:43:54 <timeless> ... more specific to svg
18:44:02 <timeless> ... it'd be nice to have it as an element in <html>
18:45:09 <Santabarbara> http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CONNECTORS/index.xhtml
18:45:27 <timeless> shepazu_: a connector is a thing that connects two things
18:45:29 <timeless> ... it's a graph
18:45:32 <timeless> [ Applause ]
18:45:43 <timeless> shepazu_: thank you, i appreciate that, i'll be here all week
18:45:55 <timeless> ... it says "i am the connection between A and B"
18:46:29 <timeless> ... say you have an org chart/genealogy tree
18:46:37 <timeless> ... each would be a new connector between different elements
18:46:57 <timeless> paulc: a) you're getting <rect>/<circle> more intimately into html
18:47:09 <timeless> ... b) you're also offering <connector> to connect a textbox to a list
18:47:20 <timeless> shepazu_: personally i think it's challenging
18:47:23 <timeless> ... one is visual
18:47:27 <timeless> ... there are ports
18:47:42 <timeless> ... also, when you move shapes around, the connector keeps those things connected
18:47:45 <SteveF> q+
18:47:50 <timeless> ... there's also virtual navigation
18:48:07 <timeless> s/virtual/logical/
18:48:21 <timeless> ... there's also an opportunity to describe the nature of the connection
18:48:25 <timeless> paulc: are there primitives?
18:48:28 <timeless> ... child?
18:48:36 <timeless> shepazu_: i don't think we should drill into that at this point
18:48:48 <timeless> paulc: if we said "blow our minds"
18:48:56 <timeless> ... continue your work on inline-svg
18:49:02 <timeless> ... we'd get connectors for free
18:49:12 <timeless> ... using them with html could be a separate question
18:49:25 <timeless> shepazu_: also a bit on focusable:
18:49:37 <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: a number of discussions in PF
18:49:40 <timeless> ... on tabindex=
18:49:43 <timeless> janina: another topic
18:49:50 <MarkVickers_> MarkVickers_ has joined #html-wg
18:50:16 <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: we'll run into this tomorrow
18:50:20 <timeless> ... CSS has flexbox
18:50:25 <timeless> ... changes flow of page
18:50:29 <timeless> ... tabindex doesn't follow that
18:50:35 <timeless> ... not sure if today/now
18:50:39 <timeless> ... big can of worms
18:51:06 <timeless> paulc: taxonomy for graphics
18:51:11 <timeless> ... expanded to inline-<svg>
18:51:26 <timeless> ... expanded that to expanding set of objects in svg to include <connector>
18:51:35 <timeless> ... and told us we might be able to use it in HTML
18:51:42 <timeless> ... also event handler
18:51:45 <timeless> q?
18:51:56 <timeless> ack SteveF
18:51:57 <MarkVickers> MarkVickers has joined #html-wg
18:52:04 <timeless> SteveF: wrt <connector>
18:52:09 <MarkVickers> MarkVickers has joined #html-wg
18:52:09 <timeless> ... how would it help
18:52:15 <timeless> ... what are UCs for <html>
18:52:19 <timeless> ... from looking at it
18:52:26 <timeless> ... it appears to be mainly accessibility info?
18:52:28 <timeless> shepazu_: no
18:52:33 <timeless> ... if you've seen a meme w/ a flow chart
18:52:40 <timeless> ... anyone would be able to use it
18:52:46 <timeless> ... navigation for sighted people as well
18:52:57 <timeless> SteveF: advantage of this over additional attributes?
18:53:03 <timeless> ... rather than adding an element
18:53:12 <timeless> shepazu_: you don't want title=/label=
18:53:21 <timeless> ... you want it to be in different languages
18:53:29 <timeless> ... connector can have description as a child
18:53:31 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:53:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html ArtB
18:53:32 <timeless> ... deeper information
18:53:44 <timeless> SteveF: <div att=connector>
18:54:09 <timeless> ... a lot easier to add attributes than elements to html
18:54:15 <timeless> shepazu_: yes
18:54:24 <timeless> ... i'm not proposing <connector>s for html
18:54:28 <timeless> ack richardschwerdtfeger
18:54:35 <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: <connector> gives semantic and drawing
18:54:40 <timeless> ... two boxes drawn in html
18:54:47 <timeless> ... and then i can draw the actual connector
18:54:54 <cyns> cyns has joined #html-wg
18:55:09 <timeless> SteveF: i thought we were talking about HTML
18:55:21 <timeless> shepazu_: i'd rather you see the proposal + UCs first
18:55:43 <timeless> cyns: Cynthia Shelly, Microsoft
18:55:49 <timeless> ... we have connectors in Visio
18:55:54 <timeless> ... they're pretty complex
18:56:01 <timeless> ... they'd be hard to do w/ attributes
18:56:10 <timeless> s/Visio/Visio - i worked on them/
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18:56:16 <timeless> paulc: have we done what you wanted to do?
18:56:36 <timeless> ... some talk of doing work w/o changing html
18:56:38 <cyns> cyns has joined #html-wg
18:56:51 <timeless> ... sounds like you do things as long as you do it in lowercase, you just do your thing
18:56:54 <timeless> shepazu_: yes
18:57:04 <timeless> paulc: when would you have a doc for review?
18:57:07 <timeless> shepazu_: 4 months?
18:57:09 <timeless> [ Nods ]
18:57:16 <timeless> paulc: WG Draft for review?
18:57:18 <timeless> shepazu_: yes
18:57:27 <timeless> paulc: chairs make sure we're aware of document
18:57:37 <timeless> ... helps to identify what parts of document to look at
18:57:42 <timeless> ... or know what you've broken
18:57:47 <timeless> ... think you might break
18:57:52 <timeless> ... ask if other changes are needed
18:58:00 <timeless> ... asking us to just look at a dead cat
18:58:06 <timeless> ... "it's a dead cat"
18:58:18 <timeless> shepazu_: we'll try to avoid felinicide
18:58:30 <timeless> paulc: -> Agenda
18:58:40 <timeless> ... we've covered graphics/taxonomy
18:59:07 <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: we met w/ WebApps earlier in the week
18:59:14 <timeless> ... we're proposing reflected attributes
18:59:16 <timeless> ... roles
18:59:18 <timeless> ... on elements
18:59:26 <timeless> ... getComputedRole()/getComputedLabel()
18:59:35 <timeless> ... when we get to CSS discussion
18:59:41 <timeless> ... CSS injects content into the page
18:59:48 <timeless> ... name computation gets more involved
18:59:57 <timeless> ... for test/tools, we need the computed name/role of object
19:00:02 <timeless> ... we can't depend on the dom any longer
19:00:09 <timeless> paulc: these are things in the dom
19:00:25 <timeless> ... which part of WebApps scope is impacted here?
19:00:30 <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: we went to WebApps
19:00:34 <timeless> ... chaals said submit it here
19:00:50 <timeless> paulc: where in their family of specs would it land
19:00:56 <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: it would be on a DOM element
19:01:04 <timeless> paulc: that's where i was going
19:01:09 <timeless> ... who owns DOM?
19:01:19 <timeless> ... you'd like additional methods on Elements
19:01:21 <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: yes
19:01:28 <timeless> ... not just for HTML, same things for SVG
19:01:33 <timeless> paulc: best way to handle this
19:01:39 <timeless> ... when we talk about After HTML5
19:01:45 <timeless> ... we should add a sub-element
19:01:47 <jongund_> jongund_ has joined #html-wg
19:01:48 <timeless> ... sub-item
19:01:56 <timeless> ... that HTML WG had assigned to it DOM4
19:02:03 <timeless> ... has to clearly define its future for DOM
19:02:11 <timeless> ... chaals gave you a very good answer
19:02:19 <timeless> ... i gave the Indie-UI the same answer
19:02:28 <timeless> ... do the work, we'll figure out where it belongs
19:02:33 <timeless> ... i'm trying to give the same sentiment
19:02:37 <timeless> richardschwerdtfeger: i wanted to give a headsup
19:02:45 <timeless> janina: this seemed like the time
19:03:32 <timeless> i|we met|Topic: ComputedRole/ComputedLabel|
19:03:38 <SteveF> Element.getComputedRole() thread on PF list http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Oct/thread.html#msg120
19:03:44 <timeless> topic: EventHandler enumeration
19:03:51 <timeless> janina: you've said no in the past
19:03:56 <timeless> ... maybe things have changed
19:04:04 <timeless> ... we understand you can get an enumeration of
19:04:21 <timeless> ... what's registered for each particular element platform by platform for particular element
19:04:34 <timeless> ... or with a plugin
19:04:45 <timeless> ... i'd like to ask John Gunderman to talk about it
19:05:02 <timeless> s/John Gunderman/Jon Gunderson/
19:05:08 <timeless> jon: Jon Gunderson
19:05:20 <timeless> janina: is shane in the room (to point to past requests)
19:05:27 <timeless> jon: useful for a11y, in evaluation tools
19:05:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #html-wg
19:05:36 <timeless> ... if someone has assigned a role=widget to an Element
19:05:47 <timeless> ... you expect keyboard/click handlers related to the role
19:05:58 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #html-wg
19:05:59 <timeless> ... w/ Testing Tools, we need to look for things related to that node/its parent
19:06:07 <timeless> ... we need a special api for a particular browser
19:06:13 <timeless> ... or if we're on a server w/ HTMLUnit
19:06:16 <timeless> ... we need an extension
19:06:31 <timeless> ... maybe we just want to know "is there a keyup/keydown/mouseevent?"
19:06:41 <timeless> ... "are there mouseevents on this <div>?"
19:06:48 <timeless> ... then "this is something interactive"
19:06:56 <timeless> ... "are you using an ARIA role=?"
19:07:06 <timeless> ... "ARIA role=widget, is there a keyboard handler?"
19:07:09 <SteveF> q+
19:07:11 <timeless> ... for Indie-UI
19:07:24 <timeless> ... "we're seeing key handlers, maybe you should use Indie-UI events"
19:07:34 <timeless> ... problem for me as a developer of an evaluation UI
19:07:39 <timeless> ... i develop specific test cases
19:07:44 <timeless> ... i can't use the DOM to get that event info
19:07:53 <timeless> ... in my unit test, i basically skip anything related to event handlers
19:08:00 <timeless> ... i can't build test pages that automatically test themselves
19:08:10 <timeless> paulc: so you want a way to enumerate all event handlers?
19:08:25 <timeless> jon: no, just are there any for a given type on a given node
19:08:28 <timeless> ... boolean is enough
19:08:37 <adrianba> q+
19:08:38 <timeless> ... i don't know what it will do, just know that it will listen
19:08:58 <timeless> paulc: anyone in the room receiving/sending side
19:09:10 <timeless> janina: there was resistance to doing this in a standardized way
19:09:15 <SteveF> Report on event listener investigation http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Aug/0090.html
19:09:16 <timeless> ... easier to build MITM attacks
19:09:26 <timeless> paulc: oh, you'd know an element had a particular event
19:09:38 <timeless> ... possibly a DoS? by using event over and over again
19:09:56 <timeless> Travis: some event handlers are known already, onfoo
19:09:57 <Cyril> q+
19:10:05 <timeless> ... what's the difference between that and addEventListener
19:10:15 <timeless> jon: rarely are inline events used
19:10:23 <timeless> ... it's pretty rare that people use onclick= on elements
19:10:32 <timeless> ack SteveF
19:10:40 <timeless> SteveF: there's an email Shane did
19:10:46 <timeless> ... on event listener registration
19:10:49 <timeless> ... PF discussion
19:10:51 <SteveF> ack me
19:10:51 <timeless> ... background
19:10:54 <timeless> s/ack me//
19:10:56 <timeless> ack adrianba
19:11:01 <timeless> adrianba: Adrian Bateman, Microsoft
19:11:06 <timeless> ... a bit confused about specific UC
19:11:25 <timeless> ... this might be helpful for those few times where you have an event handler attached to a specific element
19:11:32 <timeless> ... increasingly, control libraries developed
19:11:39 <jongund> q+
19:11:41 <timeless> ... event handlers tend to be on different elements
19:11:47 <timeless> ... events captured somewhere else
19:12:04 <timeless> ... seems it'd be hard to discern anything about how interactive an element is based on presence of an event handler
19:12:06 <timeless> ack Cyril
19:12:12 <timeless> Cyril: not sure if it's sufficient for you
19:12:19 <timeless> ... you could overload addEventListener
19:12:22 <timeless> ... and setAttribute
19:12:27 <timeless> ... i've done it in an application
19:12:32 <timeless> paulc: i've seen nods
19:12:36 <timeless> ... have you tried jongund ?
19:12:40 <timeless> s/jon:/jongund:/
19:12:42 <adrianba> +1 to cyril - we do this for similar purposes
19:12:45 <timeless> jongund: we have a sidebar in Firefox
19:12:55 <timeless> ... if you open the sidebar after you've loaded the page, you don't have a chance to overload
19:13:06 <timeless> ... also in a browser, there's no guarantee when your overload gets into the process
19:13:11 <timeless> ... for parent/child relationship
19:13:20 <timeless> ... we do look at all parent elements
19:13:22 <timeless> ... and child elements
19:13:27 <timeless> ... not definitive
19:13:34 <timeless> ... if i see there are mouse handlers, but no roles
19:13:46 <timeless> ... i don't know for sure, but i can probably tell him that you need to look at what you're doing
19:13:50 <timeless> ... maybe add ARIA
19:14:02 <cyns> q+ to say that UAAG was asking for a similar feature.  I gave them feedback that it wasn't feasible to do this because the events could be bound at any time, and there was no way to know if you got them all
19:14:04 <timeless> ... and if you do add them, and i don't see keyboard, i can tell them they still aren't fulfilling ARAI
19:14:10 <timeless> s/ARAI/ARIA/
19:14:15 <timeless> ... people build a spec
19:14:22 <timeless> s/spec/page
19:14:28 <cyns> q?
19:14:29 <timeless> ... they read spec, they add aria role=menu
19:14:33 <timeless> ... they add that all over
19:14:41 <timeless> ... look at aria evaluation
19:14:49 <timeless> ... it doesn't work because there aren't event handlers
19:14:54 <timeless> ... not supporting keyboard/managing focus
19:14:58 <MarkVickers_> MarkVickers_ has joined #html-wg
19:15:05 <timeless> ... i can use hooks to tell people that they need it
19:15:11 <MarkVickers_> MarkVickers_ has joined #html-wg
19:15:15 <timeless> Travis: i have a resistance to a general purpose feature in the language
19:15:22 <timeless> ... i see it's a valid UC for testing/a11y
19:15:27 <timeless> ... when you want to prod it
19:15:42 <timeless> ... testing at load time is a small portion, if you don't exercise event handlers
19:15:55 <timeless> ... have you thought about asking the Web Driver folks to get it added there?
19:16:02 <timeless> Josh_Soref: +1
19:16:21 <timeless> jongund: I haven't looked into that
19:16:25 <timeless> ... we haven't looked in PF either
19:16:31 <timeless> paulc: Web Driver is more recent
19:16:41 <timeless> ... more comprehensive testing than the last time PF/A11y asked for this
19:16:47 <timeless> ... UC is very Test oriented
19:17:01 <timeless> ... and as Travis said, we should figure out how to test these features post pageload
19:17:05 <timeless> ... maybe that's a possible route
19:17:06 <timeless> q?
19:17:13 <timeless> ack jongund
19:17:19 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
19:17:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
19:17:34 <timeless> cyns: UAAG WG was asking for a similar feature
19:17:40 <timeless> ... to track events/change input method of them
19:17:47 <timeless> ... MS said it wasn't feasible
19:17:52 <timeless> ... you didn't know if you got all the events
19:18:01 <timeless> ... I think Web Driver would work
19:18:09 <timeless> ... In a11y, we're often trying to change the input method
19:18:19 <timeless> ... i wonder if there's anything we could do to make it feasible
19:18:44 <timeless> paulc: even if you collect some of them
19:18:48 <timeless> ... others could come up later
19:18:55 <cyns> ack me
19:18:55 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to say that UAAG was asking for a similar feature.  I gave them feedback that it wasn't feasible to do this because the events could be bound at any time, and
19:18:58 <timeless> ... potentially an infinite number
19:18:59 <Zakim> ... there was no way to know if you got them all
19:19:31 <timeless> paulc: i heard two implicit action items
19:19:37 <timeless> ... a11y should go look at Web Driver
19:19:41 <timeless> ... partial fix for the problem
19:19:47 <timeless> ... i didn't hear anyone speak to old reason
19:19:56 <timeless> ... i'll believe that's still a valid pushback
19:20:03 <timeless> ... maybe less so in testing case as Travis said
19:20:17 <timeless> ... and shepazu_ took an action item to make sure HTML WG progresses to a particular stage
19:20:18 <myakura> myakura has joined #html-wg
19:20:24 <timeless> ... and include question in a review request
19:20:51 <timeless> ... include me in the to: field for public-html@ (technical) or public-html-admin@ (non-technical)
19:21:17 <timeless> ... if you send review request with technical review, use the former, if you don't have questions, use the latter list
19:21:29 <timeless> ... shepazu_, you're invited to split the request into two
19:21:34 <timeless> ... questions in subject field
19:21:43 <timeless> q+ to note on Process
19:21:54 <timeless> paulc: we have another slot this afternoon
19:22:23 <timeless> ... 4pm for notes, footnotes, roles/validation for digital processing
19:22:28 <timeless> ... we have a hard stop at 5pm
19:22:35 <timeless> ... another agenda item, someone calling in from China
19:22:39 <timeless> janina: that's fine
19:22:50 <timeless> paulc: cyns, that's the slot you wanted?
19:22:55 <timeless> cyns: mine was about events
19:23:11 <timeless> paulc: confirming that we're dropping name computation, access key, captcha
19:23:22 <timeless> shepazu_: we in SVG ... in an obsolete version of SVG
19:23:27 <timeless> ... we have a focusable= attribute
19:23:33 <timeless> ... this serves the purpose
19:23:40 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #html-wg
19:23:41 <timeless> ... most stuff in SVG isn't focusable
19:23:50 <timeless> ... we're thinking of re-adding that for SVG2
19:23:54 <timeless> ... we also have tabindex=
19:23:59 <zcorpan_> q+
19:24:01 <timeless> ... we want to talk about that relationship
19:24:11 <Cyril> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/interact.html#focusable-attr
19:24:14 <timeless> q+ timeless_2 to ask shepazu_ about css for focussable
19:24:28 <timeless> paulc: i'd recommend you divide it down to technical topic
19:24:37 <timeless> ... xpost to svg@ +public-html@
19:24:44 <timeless> ack zcorpan_
19:24:47 <timeless> zcorpan_: tabindex=
19:24:58 <timeless> ... it's not necessary to have focusable, tabindex=0 means this is focusable
19:25:09 <timeless> shepazu_: we'll have a longer discussion someplace else
19:25:10 <timeless> q?
19:25:11 <timeless> ack me
19:25:11 <Zakim> timeless, you wanted to note on Process
19:26:07 <timeless> ack me
19:26:07 <Zakim> timeless_2, you wanted to ask shepazu_ about css for focussable
19:27:07 <timeless> paulc: recess for lunch
19:27:11 <timeless> ... back at 2pm
19:27:15 <timeless> [ lunch until 2pm ]
19:27:34 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
19:27:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html timeless
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19:29:05 <timeless> s/Process/Process TF is encouraging review requests to identify the areas which would be interesting to reviewers/
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20:41:42 <paulc> rrsagent, generate minutes
20:41:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/30-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
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20:50:21 <jcraig> agenda?
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21:05:57 <timeless> topic: Agenda Bashing
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21:06:15 <timeless> paulc: this item was meant to give us an update on the joint Editing TF
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21:06:22 <timeless> ... not just HTML+WebApps, but lots of other people
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21:06:33 <timeless> ... i'm not trying to replay the hours of discussion from earlier in the week
21:06:45 <timeless> ... i think it's important to make the HTML WG aware of that discussion
21:06:51 <timeless> ... after that is a Coffee Break
21:06:56 <timeless> ... and then After HTML5 discussion
21:07:02 <timeless> ... concrete, look at scribbled notes
21:07:15 <timeless> ... 4pm with PF WG and DpugIG + CSS
21:07:28 <timeless> ... also folded Canvas TF report -- probably first
21:07:34 <timeless> ... i may have had a request to do it first
21:07:42 <timeless> ... i haven't confirmed, i just sent an email to China
21:07:49 <timeless> ... it's 5am (China time) now
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21:08:02 <timeless> ... planning to do 5:00-5:30pm on WebPerf proposal
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21:08:24 <timeless> ... we still don't have anything after Coffee tomorrow
21:08:30 <timeless> ... I'm reordering EME bits
21:08:38 <timeless> ... I had a request about Bug 26332
21:08:44 <timeless> ... currently anchored @ 10am
21:08:52 <timeless> ... and a general pointer to EME bugs on first item
21:08:58 <timeless> ... still talking to TF participants about order
21:09:25 <timeless> ... darobin, under DOM4 test results, i just picked up pointers to documents we attempted to use for CfC and are ready to use for TransReq
21:09:36 <timeless> ... I think that's all the changes
21:09:39 <timeless> ... darobin ?
21:09:50 <timeless> Topic: Editing TF
21:10:32 <timeless> darobin: editing, contentEditable are major pains to everyone
21:10:41 <timeless> ... a few months ago we gathered people together
21:10:46 <timeless> ... we set up a TF
21:10:51 <timeless> ... there's a lot to fix, a lot of moving parts
21:10:58 <timeless> ... we tried to split into manageable chunks
21:11:06 <timeless> ... even if we don't solve editing, just improve a part
21:11:11 <timeless> ... it makes life easier for people
21:11:16 <timeless> ... we have several things in parallel
21:11:39 <timeless> ... 1. collaboration w/ Indie-UI -- Intention Events
21:12:06 <timeless> ... instead of having to intercept cmd-z + ctrl-z + ctrl-u (some locale) + shaking phone
21:12:14 <timeless> ... UA does transformation for you
21:12:21 <timeless> ... undo might not be part of the first batch
21:12:28 <timeless> ... text insertion, deletion, newlines, selections
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21:12:36 <timeless> ... that's meant to abstract on top of what's going on
21:12:47 <timeless> Travis: worth noting
21:12:57 <timeless> ... these are actions... Intentions... confused me
21:13:08 <timeless> ... these Intentions come after the classic device-events are fired
21:13:16 <timeless> ... you'd still, if copying/undoing via ctrl-z
21:13:20 <timeless> ... you'd get keydowns, etc
21:13:33 <timeless> ... if after all of that, nothing was done to upset the browser's intention for undo
21:13:38 <timeless> ... it falls at the end of the pipeline
21:14:00 <timeless> rniwa: re: Intention, clear aspects of Selection
21:14:06 <timeless> ... there's IE getSelection(), but no spec
21:14:18 <timeless> ... trying to write a small spec to document what's implemented by browser
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21:14:22 <timeless> ... some aspects are lacking
21:14:26 <timeless> ... e.g. in github
21:14:34 <timeless> ... caret positioning is underspec'd
21:14:42 <timeless> ... selection at end of previous line/beginning of next line
21:14:50 <timeless> ... if text wraps via soft-wrapping