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17:49:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-startsession-minutes.html raphael
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17:49:42 <kaz> Meeting: Start Session Breakout
17:49:48 <kaz> Chair: Ken Komatsu
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17:49:55 <jcverdie_> material can be found here: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2014/SessionIdeas#startSession.28.22WoT_devices.22.29
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17:50:05 <kaz> topic: background and agend
17:50:10 <kaz> done
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17:50:17 <kaz> topic: StartSession
17:50:31 <kaz> tatsuya: three open questions
17:50:42 <kaz> s/agend/agenda/
17:50:50 <kaz> ... device interaction
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17:50:59 <kaz> zkaim, who is here?
17:51:09 <kaz> zakiim, who is here?
17:52:17 <kaz> ... the sense of WoT is too broad
17:52:27 <kaz> ... would think about narrower area
17:52:44 <kaz> ... (startSession("WoT Devices")
17:53:24 <kaz> ... Web servers on any devices and UAs on any devices
17:53:43 <kaz> ... device interaction is today's topic
17:54:02 <kaz> ... local network connection
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17:54:35 <kaz> ... we call it "startSession"
17:54:39 <kaz> ... UA2UA connection
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17:54:49 <kaz> ... (Challenges for Device Interaction)
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17:55:03 <kaz> ... list of W3C groups tackling device connection
17:55:14 <kaz> ... MMI WG, Web&TV IG (HNTF)
17:55:18 <ddavis> scribenick: ddavis
17:55:46 <ddavis> Igarashi: The Device APIs WG started to create the network service discovery API.
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17:56:02 <ddavis> ... The Device APIs WG also looked into Web Intents for devices.
17:56:21 <ddavis> ... And at TPAC 2013 the second screen presentation CG started and this month became a working group.
17:56:46 <ddavis> ... This working group has big momentum and browser vendors have already said they'll support it which is very good.
17:57:13 <ddavis> igarashi: This slide shows what the second screen presentation API is.
17:57:23 <ddavis> ... The example scenario is for tablet and TV.
17:57:56 <ddavis> ... There are two cases to consider - one is that one UA is running on the devices and the rendering result is copied via Miracase, AirPlay, etc.
17:58:10 <ddavis> ... In the other case, two UAs exist and they communicate with each other.
17:58:22 <ddavis> ... In the presentation API, the underlying protocol is out of scope.
17:58:27 <olivier> s/Miracase/Miracast/
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17:58:52 <ddavis> igarashi: The communication is started with startSession() and then messages are sent using the Messaging API.
17:59:16 <ddavis> ... This slide shows a comparison of how the presentation API differs to the NSD (Network Service Discovery) API.
17:59:33 <ddavis> ... These are my observations. The Presentation API scope is very limited compared to NSD.
18:00:05 <ddavis> ... NSD can use protocols such as SSDP, mDNS, DIAL and HTTP.
18:00:27 <ddavis> ... For the presentation API, there is no discovery information sent to the web application.
18:00:39 <ddavis> ... The UA shows the device list by itself.
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18:01:08 <ddavis> ... This is because of privacy issues. The NSD API does provide a list of discovered services to the web app.
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18:01:22 <ddavis> ... This raises privacy concerns.
18:01:51 <ddavis> ... The Presentation API uses messaging and Cross-Origin Access is at the UA's discretion.
18:02:02 <ddavis> ... For NSD API, messaging is used with CORS.
18:02:37 <ddavis> ... Regarding protocols, discovery and messaging are out of scope for the presentation API but not for NSD API which use existing protocols.
18:02:38 <tidoust> Note that support for SSDP, mDNS, DIAL in Network Service Discovery API is also up to the User Agent, i.e. a User Agent is not required to support any of them, see http://www.w3.org/TR/discovery-api/#service-discovery
18:02:46 <ddavis> igarashi: I have three open questions.
18:03:34 <ddavis> ... The Presentation API is a good approach to standardize and balance between functionality and privacy.
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18:04:02 <ddavis> ... 1) Why should the common messaging API not be used to interact with non-screen devices, i.e. WoT devices?
18:04:19 <ddavis> 2) How to ensure interoperability if WoT devices are provied by different vendors?
18:04:34 <ddavis> ... 3) What is the security model for cross-origin access for WoT devices?
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18:05:31 <ddavis> ... Let's look at messaging. startSession is used and for WoT devices a URI or URL could be used.
18:05:48 <ddavis> ... E.g. startSession("urn:schema-example-com:wot")
18:06:04 <ddavis> ... Discovery is UA implementation dependent.
18:06:09 <ddavis> s/provied/provided/
18:06:30 <ddavis> igarashi: Messaging is very generic and the same protocol can be used for WoT devices.
18:06:56 <ddavis> ... The second open question is about interoperability with WoT devices.
18:07:07 <ddavis> ... The protocol is out of scope which is a good decision.
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18:07:35 <ddavis> ... In the case of WebSockets and WebRTC, they're defined by W3C.
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18:07:54 <ddavis> ... However the protocol is defined by IETF. Maybe this idea can be used for presentation API.
18:08:07 <ddavis> ... PHY/MAC layers vary in WoT devices.
18:08:35 <ddavis> igarashi: Regarding the security model, my question is whether the content security policy for the web can also work for the WoT.
18:08:58 <ddavis> ... I wonder whether technology such as CORS can be used along with the presentation API.
18:09:48 <ddavis> ... Another security question which will be explained more by Toshiba is whether WoT devices can or cannot support TLS/SSL practically.
18:10:09 <ddavis> ... Also, can we standardize a security model beyond the presentation API?
18:10:29 <ddavis> ... I wonder if there is a reasonable presentation for non-technical consumers.
18:10:35 <ddavis> ... That's the end of my presentation.
18:11:18 <ddavis> honma: I'd like to show a demo of non-screen devices using the presentation API.
18:11:25 <ddavis> ... I'm from NTT Communications.
18:11:46 <ddavis> ... There is a presentation API library which I'd like to demonstrate.
18:12:02 <ddavis> ... I'm using Sony's ActionCam. It has no screen but it provides a REST API.
18:12:11 <ddavis> ... The user can take a picture and record video with this API.
18:12:38 <ddavis> ... When using non-screen devices, we need to specify the type of devices. We suggest using urn: for this.
18:12:51 <ddavis> ... Calling the startSession method the session object will be returned.
18:13:21 <ddavis> ... Using an event handler and postMessage method, the web app can communicate with the ActionCam using the remote API provided by the camera.
18:13:41 <ddavis> ... This is a web app using the presentation API.
18:13:47 <ddavis> [Shows demo]
18:14:10 <ddavis> honma: Clicking the in-page button means I can select the device.
18:14:43 <ddavis> ... This application is using the presentation API for communication.
18:15:14 <ddavis> ... This is the application of this demonstration.
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18:15:36 <ddavis> ... The presentation API shim works with the device driver module, which tries to find the camera with SSDP.
18:15:52 <ddavis> ... After that, the web app can communicate with the device, in this case using the Sony API.
18:16:07 <ddavis> ... Finally, I propose requirements of the system such as...
18:16:51 <ddavis> ... Filtering rules for which the UA can discover 1) by web app with dedicated API, and 2) browser discovers all kinds of devices and notifies the web app.
18:17:14 <ddavis> ... The second requirement is regarding communicating with various devices.
18:17:41 <ddavis> ... 1) With the modules provided by the 3rd party vendor, and 2) With the modules provided by the browser vendor.
18:17:57 <ddavis> komatsu: Next is Sakamoto-san with a talk about the security model.
18:18:12 <ddavis> sakamoto: I'm from Toshiba Japan.
18:18:42 <ddavis> ... Recently we've been accessing many devices simultaneously in a home network, for example tablets, TVs and smartphones.
18:18:58 <ddavis> ... Hybridcast is a new service launched in September last year in Japan.
18:19:08 <ddavis> ... The user can enjoy multi-screen services.
18:19:31 <ddavis> ... The companion applications use HTML5 from service providers.
18:19:47 <ddavis> ... This slide shows the connection method.
18:20:02 <ddavis> ... The signal first comes from the TV set and sends the URL from the TV set to the phone.
18:20:19 <ddavis> ... The companion browser gets the web app from the provider's server.
18:20:37 <ddavis> ... In more detail, firstly the URL is sent from the TV to the phone.
18:21:00 <ddavis> ... Then the browser accesses the URL and gets the HTML5 app for the companion device from the server and executes it.
18:21:07 <ddavis> ... We can use the maker's JavaScript engine.
18:21:38 <ddavis> ... This slide shows the entire system.
18:21:58 <ddavis> ... We can send information from the TV to the phone. with a WebSocket server in the TV set.
18:22:17 <ddavis> ... The TV set can not publish SSL certificates for the WS server.
18:22:54 <ddavis> ... The phone browser is not allowed self-certification from the TV set so maybe the browser displays a warning message.
18:23:24 <ddavis> ... Recently one or two browsers have changed their security policy for the WebSocket protocol, so we can not use SSL in the local network.
18:23:33 <ddavis> ... This means we can send information to the phone.
18:23:46 <ddavis> ... So we'd like to change the security policy in the local network.
18:24:24 <ddavis> ... In conclusion, Japanese broadcasters are trying to use WebSockets to exchange information between TVs and phones.
18:24:42 <ddavis> ... But we cannot do this using published certificates from a TV to a phone.
18:25:08 <ddavis> ... So we should discuss the security policy if we plan to use WebSockets for home networks.
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18:25:30 <ddavis> komatsu: Our session is based on Mr Igarashi's three open questions.
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18:32:15 <bryan> q+
18:32:30 <kaz> q+
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18:34:54 <kaz> q+ rouay
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18:35:08 <tidoust2> ack bryan
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18:43:36 <kaz> ack r
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18:46:41 <kaz> rouay: communication between devices is application dependent
18:46:56 <olivier> s/rouay/louay/g
18:48:02 <kaz> ken: current implementation is just for this sony camera, but actual message could be standardized
18:48:24 <kaz> louay: how can we use more abstract way?
18:48:35 <kaz> ken: we need more abstract identifier
18:48:47 <kaz> ... should be something like URL
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18:49:17 <kaz> jc: if you have a printer, you might want to say "a printer"
18:49:37 <kaz> tatsuya: something like google twitter api
18:49:45 <kaz> jc: going back to ua2ua
18:49:54 <kaz> ... presentation api on the discovery side
18:50:08 <kaz> ... what is your plan?
18:50:25 <kaz> ... you need that part too
18:50:27 <kaz> tatsuya: out of the scope
18:50:56 <kaz> ... currently presentation api just specifies api
18:51:02 <kaz> q?
18:51:30 <kaz> tatsuya: opinions on the three open questions?
18:52:04 <kaz> ... this kind of generic messaging mechanism should be used for non-screen devices?
18:52:08 <kaz> @@@
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18:53:37 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:53:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-startsession-minutes.html JonathanJ1
18:53:47 <kaz> bryan: based on the existing native mechanism
18:53:59 <JonathanJ1> rrsagent, make minutes public
18:53:59 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', JonathanJ1.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:54:47 <kaz> tatsuya: for communication protocol, should we support existing mechanism like websocket?
18:54:50 <kaz> @@@
18:55:00 <kaz> ann: some of us just don't know
18:55:25 <jcverdie> Looks like the minutes are not accessible
18:56:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-startsession-minutes.html raphael
18:56:24 <kaz> (results to be added later by Ken?)
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18:58:41 <kaz> i/tatsuya: three open questions/scribenick: kaz/
18:58:56 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:58:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-startsession-minutes.html kaz
18:59:10 <jcverdie_> Ann for president :)
18:59:32 <kaz> i/communication between/scribenick: kaz/
18:59:33 <kaz> i/tatsuya: three open questions/scribenick: kaz/
18:59:39 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:59:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-startsession-minutes.html kaz
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19:09:24 <ddavis> rrsagent, generate minutes
19:09:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-startsession-minutes.html ddavis
19:12:02 <ddavis> louay: There are two parts to the presentation API - controller and messenger.
19:12:03 <ddavis> ... The presentation API is independent from the technology - it provides communication between two web pages.
19:12:03 <ddavis> komatsu: Our demo is just related to hardware devices.
19:12:03 <ddavis> igarashi: the messaging api is app-specific.
19:12:03 <ddavis> louay: Maybe in the background a different protocol is used but from the developer point of view the same messaging method is used.
19:12:05 <ddavis> ... The communication between devices is application-specific.
19:12:07 <ddavis> komatsu: Currently the implementation is the presentation provides high-level messaging.
19:12:09 <ddavis> ... There are other video devices that have specific device driver modules and generic messaging can be done with the application.
19:12:14 <ddavis> louay: I'm speaking about how to address these devices.
19:12:16 <ddavis> ... A specific type of URI is pointing to a specific type of device. I wonder how we can do this in a more abstract way. At the moment the presentation API is using URLs to point to web pages.
19:12:19 <ddavis> komatsu: We need a more abstract identifier.
19:12:21 <ddavis> ... Maybe represented by URL, I'm not sure. We need to discuss such an identifier.
19:12:23 <ddavis> jean-claude: If you have a printer, you don't want to have possible URIs for all possible printers, you want to just say "printer".
19:12:30 <ddavis> igarashi: Applications should use web service-specific APIs.
19:12:32 <ddavis> jean-claude: As Louay said, you have the presentation API on the discovery side but you need a way for the web page to say "I'm a web service". What's your thought on that? If you want to have UA to UA communication you need something.
19:12:36 <ddavis> igarashi: That's out of scope and up to the browser vendor currently. The current presentation API just defines the API and the protocol and security policy is up to the implementation.
19:12:39 <ddavis> ... Shall we ask everyone about these questions?
19:12:43 <ddavis> ... Do you think presentation API should be defined for non-screen devices?
19:12:45 <ddavis> [roughly 30% yes, one person a possible no, 70% don't know]
19:12:47 <ddavis> igarashi: Do you think W3C should define underlying messaging and discovery protocol for WoT devices?
19:12:49 <ddavis> [0% raised hands]
19:12:51 <ddavis> bryan: Would you accept a definition by W3C w
19:12:53 <ddavis> bryan: Would you accept a definition by W3C was based on existing tech such as WebRTC/WebSockets?
19:12:55 <ddavis> igarashi: I think that modification is OK. Maybe we should separate discovery as well.
19:13:01 <ddavis> ... For the communication protocol, we should support existing protocols?
19:13:03 <ddavis> [roughly 15%  yes, 0% no]
19:13:05 <ddavis> igarashi: Do you think we need to think about the security policy more?
19:13:07 <ddavis> [roughly 30% yes, 0% no]
19:13:09 <ddavis> ann: How many people think these were good presentations?
19:13:13 <ddavis> [100% yes]
19:13:15 <ddavis> komatsu: Thank you for your time.
19:13:17 <ddavis> rrsagent, generate minutes
19:13:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-startsession-minutes.html ddavis
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