IRC log of social on 2014-10-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-social-irc
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16:21:26 [jtauber]
elf-pavlik: Ann is setting up now
16:21:26 [Lloyd_Fassett]
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16:21:28 [jasnell]
for those accessing remotely, we are starting a breakout session discussing schema.org/Actions and AS 2.0 Actions overlap and coordination
16:21:30 [sandro]
elf-pavlik, AnnBassetti is doing that
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16:21:59 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto I work at Google. We've been working on completed and potential Actions for some time
16:22:01 [AnnBassetti]
trying to get there elf ..
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16:22:26 [wseltzer]
Meeting: Social Web and schema.org breakout
16:22:27 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: past actions are the closed to AS work
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16:22:54 [jtauber]
http://blog.sgo.to/2014/09/schemaorg-actions-implementations.html
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16:23:10 [Ralph]
Sam cites https://developers.google.com/+/api/moment-types/listen-activity
16:23:26 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: aggregation plus past activiteis
16:23:42 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: toward potential action in music industry
16:23:52 [AnnBassetti]
http://blog.sgo.to/2014/09/schemaorg-actions-implementations.html
16:23:58 [Lloyd_Fassett]
query Google with Lady Gaga, which is in KG
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16:24:32 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Landing pages have potential actions, in microdata, Google is agnostic, json-LD is good too
16:24:54 [Lloyd_Fassett]
from the noun you reach the potential action, which is "Listen"...via going to that URL.
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16:25:07 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: We're designing this for the mobile wb
16:25:10 [Lloyd_Fassett]
web
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16:25:47 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: demoing launched products...why don't we embed schema markup in Gmails too?
16:25:54 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: build rsvp's in line
16:26:11 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: markup shown in presentation
16:26:27 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: property in noun 'potential action'
16:27:01 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: a couple weeks ago we launched search on on SERP pages on Google
16:27:14 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: noun has search action associated with it
16:27:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-social-minutes.html raphael
16:27:30 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: it's a semantic goal, a binding
16:28:09 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: Peter: why do we care about so many Google products?
16:28:24 [wseltzer]
s/Sam Goto: Peter:/Peter:/
16:28:25 [Lloyd_Fassett]
jsnell: yes we do, I can demo deep linking in AS
16:28:25 [Loqi]
wseltzer meant to say: Meeting: Social Web and schema.org breakout
16:28:35 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: I think I ran out of examples too
16:28:59 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: demo's Yandex implementation
16:29:23 [Lloyd_Fassett]
James Snell: presenting
16:29:35 [aaronpk]
wseltzer: s/././ will regex based on the last thing you said. but doesn't replace other peoples' text
16:29:48 [Lloyd_Fassett]
James Snell:Social WG just started up. I don't care about details of gadgets, but we took the use cases for in context actions
16:30:18 [aaronpk]
what is the usual behavior?
16:30:23 [aaronpk]
I didn't see anything else in IRC happen
16:30:33 [Lloyd_Fassett]
James Snell: what do we basically need? A part of that format lets us represent things through a basic syntax
16:30:37 [AnnBassetti]
James Snell: http://tpac.mybluemix.net/as2.html#19
16:30:41 [Lloyd_Fassett]
James Snell:and attach actions to it
16:30:59 [Lloyd_Fassett]
James Snell:this is very similar to Schema...it's essentially the same model
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16:31:48 [Lloyd_Fassett]
James Snell: demo's a REST call. We can share static content. Can do a browser view, deep link to a native app in IOS. The models are close at this point
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16:32:07 [Lloyd_Fassett]
James Snell: When we first started working on this a year ago the models were divergent.
16:32:35 [Lloyd_Fassett]
James Snell:when I had beers in san Francisco with Sam Goto a year ago it was more different
16:32:58 [Lloyd_Fassett]
James Snell: the protocol bits can be similar, without the vocabulary.
16:33:30 [Lloyd_Fassett]
James Snell: we can have multiple actions on an object with JSON-LD with a Link Data vocabulary
16:33:39 [Lloyd_Fassett]
James Snell: we can describe the payload coming back
16:33:50 [Lloyd_Fassett]
James Snell: the technical differences are the vocabulary
16:34:15 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: it looks like the Hydra model. Comparing the two could be constructive
16:34:59 [Lloyd_Fassett]
James Snell: Indie Actions, primarily an html based using a custom component
16:35:24 [Lloyd_Fassett]
James Snell:when we talked about it yesterday we realized it was similar too. We're getting a lot of convergence on the models.
16:35:35 [sandro]
q?
16:35:48 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Harry H: From a data modeling standpoint, Sam can you explain how you came to your process
16:36:04 [Ralph]
[James mentions the related work in the -> http://www.w3.org/community/hydra/ Hydra Community Group]
16:36:14 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: We asked what is the vocabulary you need to complete an action?
16:36:21 [hadleybeeman]
Us there a more recent update on this? http://www.hydra-cg.com/spec/latest/schema.org/
16:36:32 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: if you wanted to reserve a hotel room, what do you need to ask?
16:36:51 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: Hydra and AS inumerates the input requirements
16:37:03 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: it felt awkward for complicated use cases
16:37:18 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: how difficult would it be to develop
16:37:49 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: Java Abstract Classes are the thing that maps to my skills set. That's the thing Schema.org went went.
16:38:27 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: YOu partially instantiate an abstract class. We are not married to this approach. If you have better ideas, we're open to it?
16:38:42 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Danbri: How did we do?
16:39:04 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: what I like the most is the notiion of attaching an actino to a noun
16:39:37 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: You can share without knowing what you're sharing. Start with a noun and attach a verb to it.
16:39:56 [Lloyd_Fassett]
(person) is this fire and forget?
16:40:01 [AnnBassetti]
Ken Laskey: are these single step fire and forget actions?
16:40:05 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: It is not.
16:40:27 [AnnBassetti]
...
16:40:41 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: once you know the end point, if they return a potential action, they can build it
16:40:49 [sandro]
q?
16:40:54 [AnnBassetti]
Ken: you're taking atomic actions, fire and forget, but you take them and string them together
16:40:58 [AnnBassetti]
eg. reservation making
16:41:01 [sandro]
RRSAgent, pointer?
16:41:01 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-social-irc#T16-41-01
16:41:11 [AnnBassetti]
then you get another obje ct with another (potential) action with another question\
16:41:26 [AnnBassetti]
sam: as you are making a reservation, perhaps marriot return a reservation that can be cancelled
16:41:28 [hadleybeeman]
q+
16:41:32 [AnnBassetti]
or confirmed, cancelled, shared etc
16:41:33 [Lloyd_Fassett]
(person) you're taking potential actions, then we can get a response wiht another question. Marriot can return an API could be to cancel, confirm or share a reservation.
16:41:44 [AnnBassetti]
q?
16:41:58 [Lloyd_Fassett]
James SNell: the potential actions travel with the data. we can continue the work flow by passing the nouns around
16:41:59 [Ralph]
s/(person)/KenLaskey:/
16:42:00 [Loqi]
Ralph meant to say: [James mentions the related work in the -> http://www.w3.org/community/hydra/ Hydra Community Group]
16:42:04 [AnnBassetti]
hadleybeeman, wave your arms at harry
16:42:25 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Peter: What does this have to do with Schema? James Snell: with actions
16:42:50 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Tim Berners: Some ontologies come with with the protocol implicit.
16:43:04 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Peter: THis is non-discoverabel
16:43:21 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: WE could do a better job of documentation
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16:44:46 [sandro]
q?
16:44:50 [sandro]
q+
16:45:04 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Guha: We lookign at creating stable snapshots
16:45:27 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Guha: we push out a new version twice a month
16:45:54 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Danbri: I disagree. In the last year we've tweaked the text.
16:46:11 [timbl]
q?
16:46:20 [pfps]
My issue here is how does the meaning of actions interact with schema.org. I don't see any way of getting from schema.org to the meaning of actions as things that can be invoked.
16:47:04 [Lloyd_Fassett]
James: Right now the Schema.org actions is declaring the action. Can you work with the WG on that so we have a consistent model?
16:47:12 [lehawes_]
Change nick to lehawes
16:47:14 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Danbri: The protocol.
16:47:24 [azaroth]
q?
16:47:56 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Guha: There is 750K websites using schema markup. We have to justify changes.
16:48:18 [Lloyd_Fassett]
James Snell: we agree it's better to have one model than two
16:48:24 [pfps]
q+ to note that schema.org actions bring in much more of the schema.org vocabulary
16:48:53 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: we work with Markus FAlker from Hydra to incorporate his comments.
16:49:21 [Lloyd_Fassett]
James Snell: at least on the Actions, I encourage you to come work with the WG.
16:49:44 [sandro]
s/Markus FAlker/Markus Lanthaler/
16:49:45 [Loqi]
sandro meant to say: q+
16:49:46 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Danbri: Can we publish a Note with W3C?
16:50:00 [sandro]
Loqi, you're messed up
16:50:17 [AnnBassetti]
q?
16:50:36 [timbl]
http://schema.org/docs/actions.html
16:51:01 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Handley: please publish stable snapshots. I enouraged the UK government and we need a stable thing to develop to.
16:51:17 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Hadley: That's all of a plea for standards work.
16:51:19 [wseltzer]
s/enouraged/advise/
16:51:21 [Loqi]
wseltzer meant to say: aaronpk, on other channels, s/A/B/ works on the prior expression anywhere in the minutes
16:51:49 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Hadley: sequence of actions, is there a benefit of stringing actions together, or have a unique id in the datamodel
16:52:37 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: the changllenge with API's is that you have to read documentation to understand them. The work we're doing is to make it that a machine can get a JSON payload and understand what can be done with that payload.
16:52:53 [elf-pavlik]
affordances can also change depending on who makes the request!
16:52:57 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sam Goto: you don't ask a user to read a manual to browse the web.
16:53:17 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Hadley: that's helpful, but Tim's point about machine readable would be helpful
16:53:19 [hadleybeeman]
ack me
16:53:45 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Sandro: The main difference is how the data shapes are handled.
16:54:37 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
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16:55:35 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Sam Goto: We have a website that describes the languages we looked at Sparkl, reseach shapes, Hydra html5 forms. Our process has been documented.
16:55:57 [hadleybeeman]
s/sparkl/SPARQL
16:55:58 [Loqi]
hadleybeeman meant to say: ack me
16:56:14 [Arnaud]
s/reseach shapes/resource shapes/
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Arnaud meant to say: Arnaud joined #social
16:56:24 [aaronpk]
heh k i can disable that here
16:56:26 [sandro]
q?
16:56:30 [sandro]
ack sandro
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16:57:16 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Sam Goto: the intruction of semantic roles is different with Schema and AS
16:57:47 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
JAmes SNell: AS jsut focuses on actions without going into the roles
16:58:01 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
James Snell: they are different but compatible
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16:58:42 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Sam Goto: Because of the tree you can just understand parts of the tree, you don't have to understand all the actions. That's important programatically.
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16:59:09 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Sam Goto: you can be as specific as your users want it to be.
16:59:12 [AnnBassetti]
q?
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16:59:19 [Ralph]
i|Meeting: Social Web|-> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2014/SessionIdeas#Schema.org_and_Social_WG Schema.org and Social WG breakout session proposal
16:59:34 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Peter: You have to incorprate a lot of Schema when you incorporate Actions.
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17:00:14 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
James Snell: There is an inheritence, Tantek points out that in Schema volcanoe's can have fax machines
17:00:25 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Danbri: countries can have opening hours too
17:00:41 [sandro]
q?
17:00:44 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
James Snell: from a purely rdf point of view you get some weir artifacts
17:00:52 [goto]
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17:00:56 [AnnBassetti]
ack pfps
17:00:56 [Zakim]
pfps, you wanted to note that schema.org actions bring in much more of the schema.org vocabulary
17:01:18 [pfps]
if you use schema.org actions you get that the agent of an action is either a person *or* an organization, this brings in a large chunk of schema.org vocabulary plus disjunctive ranges
17:01:37 [danbri1]
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17:01:37 [AdamB]
just a heads up, there is about 15 minutes left
17:01:42 [goto]
hey all, this is the documention i mentioned to you right now with regards to the options we looked at for IDLs. check it out: http://blog.sgo.to/2014/03/rows-and-idls.html Feedback welcomed.
17:02:13 [elf-pavlik]
hi goto, thanks for joining! :)
17:02:37 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Tim BL: in the past Schema and rdf...it would be wonderful to have a schema that maps to rdf. The reason schema has funny artifacts compared to rdf is that they work differently. There is s lots of useful information inside schema that rdf could use.
17:02:52 [goto]
here is the list of examples i showed earlier http://blog.sgo.to/2014/09/schemaorg-actions-implementations.html
17:03:23 [KevinMarks]
hm, OK I'lll try firefox
17:03:39 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Tim BL: when I use rdf I can dereference and pick up very useful information. In the RDF world we have one version of a thing.
17:03:53 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Danbri: I don't know if everyone is following
17:04:10 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Danbri: We keep changing the schema
17:04:27 [KevinMarks]
got sound in firefox
17:04:30 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Tim B'l: Nobody is askign you to make claims you don't want to make.
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q-
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17:04:52 [chaals1]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:04:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-social-minutes.html chaals1
17:04:53 [danbri1]
searchj for volcanos with schema.org: http://danbri.org/2014/cse/volcano.html
17:05:01 [danbri1]
it seems to confirm an absence of fax numbers
17:05:51 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Harry: we have ten minutes left. We had previously had an concern with IPR. Thanks to Scott Peterson, we now just point to W3C's policy
17:06:20 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Harry: We have really good proof that schema.org is responsive and we should be happy that that work happened
17:06:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-social-minutes.html raphael
17:06:26 [AdamB]
q?
17:06:32 [KevinMarks]
http://schema.org/Volcano has faxNumber as the 5th property listed, danbri1
17:06:57 [timbl_]
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17:06:58 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
GUha: we have to figure out what we call a snapshot
17:07:07 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Guha: we'll figure out what we can do on that
17:07:46 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Danbri: the point Hadley brought up, we need to let people point to the version they are using.
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17:07:58 [sandro]
q?
17:08:03 [wseltzer]
Chair: Harry_Halpin
17:08:04 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Hadley: thank you
17:08:44 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Hadley: We use standards for preop that hold us back so we can swap data...it's a messy situation that we deal with in our world
17:08:55 [hadleybeeman]
s/preop/interoperability
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17:09:58 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Guha; schema is a live ecosystem that we get feedback on
17:09:59 [sandro]
q?
17:10:26 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
James Snell: there are model issues people have with Schema. Snapshots will make it significantly easier. If we can get that, great.
17:11:06 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
(person) is schema the world's hottest vocabulary?
17:11:51 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Danbri: there are a lot of microformats out there.
17:12:04 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Harry: there is more and more microformats on the web.
17:12:14 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Danbri: it's not a competition.
17:12:19 [sandro]
q?
17:12:20 [azaroth]
s/(person)/Taisuke Fukuno/
17:12:32 [raphael]
q+
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17:13:00 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
(person) is there a plan for multiple language
17:13:07 [KevinMarks]
it is annoying for publishers to have to add multiple types of markup to get previews on different silos
17:13:11 [hadleybeeman]
s/(person)/rtroncy
17:13:11 [elf-pavlik]
microformats as in http://microformats.org/ ?
17:13:11 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Guah: the plan is to be in ASC
17:13:25 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Guha: you can translate it.
17:13:41 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Tim BL: When you dereference it does it come in english?
17:14:40 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Sam Goto: Elf has been contributing a lot
17:14:59 [elf-pavlik]
once i can use WebID instead of state ids :)
17:16:00 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Tim bL: These actions are a part of a work flow, when you go through a process, when there is a problem do you have a plan to make a protocol around these situations?
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17:16:21 [yusuke]
on real i10n word-to-word translation may not work as expected -- atomic concept is different by language and culture especially
17:16:36 [yusuke]
... especially for 'actions'
17:16:50 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Sam Goto: The RESTful Hydra community has been thinking about that.
17:17:06 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
Danbri: We've made some progress.
17:17:28 [KevinMarks]
hadleybeeman: harry was talking about wanting domains that aren't rented for IDs - is that something interesting at the govt level
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17:17:33 [goto]
fyi
17:17:38 [AnnBassetti]
OK .. bye elf and Kevin
17:17:38 [goto]
here is another piece i wrote on hypermedia apis
17:17:38 [goto]
http://blog.sgo.to/2014/04/what-your-api-would-look-like-as-webpage.html
17:17:40 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
RRSAgent, generate minutes
17:17:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-social-minutes.html Lloyd_Fassett_
17:17:44 [elf-pavlik]
thank you AnnBassetti enabling remote participation :)
17:17:46 [wseltzer]
[adjourned]
17:17:50 [Lloyd_Fassett_]
RRSAgent, generate minutes
17:17:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-social-minutes.html Lloyd_Fassett_
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