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16:15:52 <olivier> Topic: TPAC session - Legal Restrictions, DRM and the W3C
16:16:03 <olivier> Chair: DOB
16:16:21 <olivier> Scribe: olivier
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16:17:17 <olivier> dob: introducing the topic
16:17:39 <olivier> [round of introduction]
16:17:52 <olivier> JCVerdie, MStar
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16:19:00 <olivier> dob: note that often technologist find DRM a problem implementation-wise
16:19:13 <olivier> Paul Cotton, co-chair HTML WG, Microsoft
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16:19:39 <olivier> Jerry Smith, Microsoft
16:19:52 <olivier> Haakon Bratsberg, Opera
16:20:16 <olivier> James Stewart, British Gov
16:20:31 <olivier> So Vang, NAB
16:20:44 <olivier> (NAB represents broadcasters)
16:20:54 <olivier> David Dorwin, Google, editor EME spec
16:21:04 <olivier> Bogdan, Microsoft
16:21:15 <olivier> JP Abello, Nielsen
16:21:20 <olivier> Mark Watson, Netflix
16:21:26 <olivier> Ruinan Sun, Huawei
16:21:37 <olivier> Noriya Sakamoto, Toshiba
16:21:55 <olivier> John Foliot, invited expert, focus on accessibilitty
16:21:59 <olivier> s/tty/ty/
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16:22:25 <olivier> Deborah Kaplan
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16:22:38 <olivier> Rigoh Wenning, legal counsel W3C
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16:22:59 <olivier> dob: broad audience for this, some people coming to find out where we are
16:23:06 <olivier> rrsagent, make logs world
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16:23:27 <olivier> dob: current solution is EME
16:23:42 <olivier> EME spec -> http://www.w3.org/TR/encrypted-media/
16:23:54 <olivier> dob: want to talk about legal restrictions around DRM
16:24:35 <olivier> ... general improvement in copyright control
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16:25:03 <olivier> ... typically copyright control attemps to compell a consumer to do something different to the range of ability they would otherwise have
16:25:13 <olivier> ... e.g want to play DVD in another country
16:25:54 <olivier> ... attempts to have copyright control which fit consumer behaviour more closely, fit with expectations of consumers and what they want to do with content on the web
16:26:25 <olivier> ... bucket of connected issues - privacy, accessibility
16:26:44 <olivier> ... some particularly fine points causing problems, but does not strike to the heart of the issue of controlling copy, access, usage
16:27:07 <olivier> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:27:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-drm-minutes.html olivier
16:27:45 <paulc> EME outstanding bugs: http://tinyurl.com/7tfambo
16:27:53 <olivier> dob: my area of interest - issues of user controll contorl of your own device, restrictions of what can be done on your device
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16:29:35 <olivier> Attendees: DOB, olivier, JCVerdie, paulc, Jerry, haakonb, James, So, Ddorwin, Bogdan, Noriya, jfoliot, Deborah, Rigo
16:30:16 <olivier> dob: criminal sanction when breaking (and witnessing, etc) DRM
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16:30:49 <olivier> ... would be nice to sketch out that area
16:31:09 <olivier> Agenda+ Consumer irritations
16:31:21 <olivier> Agenda+ Privacy, Accessibility
16:31:34 <olivier> Agenda+ Philosophical issues
16:31:41 <olivier> Agenda+ Legal issues
16:32:10 <olivier> dob: any preference on which topic to address
16:32:39 <olivier> jfoliot: as advocate for accessibility, realise that in the past most DRM were looked at a system
16:33:06 <olivier> ... was a problem for accessibility as user needed to modify the system to address disability
16:33:26 <paulc> Re EME and Accessibility:  see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27054
16:33:28 <olivier> ... EME is different - mitigation in focus on just the content and not the player and ecosystem
16:34:20 <olivier> ... on why I think w3c should continue work on this - PF group will look at the specs through the lens of impact on people with disabilities
16:34:46 <olivier> ... we can't stop a spec in its track, but carry a large stick, so if something is going to introduce a lot of accessibility issues we have a mandate to raise it
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16:35:20 <olivier> ... we want to make sure anything that emerges will not clash with non-discrimination laws
16:35:54 <olivier> ... while I understand that in principle DRM is distateful, but if we are going to work on a tech best to work on it at W3C
16:36:12 <olivier> deborah: we are at a point where we can make things better
16:36:28 <olivier> ... content providers are not going to make content available in a way that is not protected
16:36:53 <olivier> ... if we can deliver that content in a way that is standards based, works with accessible viewer/reader, can use accessible tools
16:37:27 <olivier> ... alternative would be proprietary and would not see accessibility prioritised
16:38:25 <olivier> dob: area of influence of w3c is in the wrapper
16:39:02 <olivier> jfoliot: because of the way we can provide support material e.g captions
16:39:26 <olivier> ... technology being moved forward in way that these can be in-band, or in separate track and coming from 3rd party source
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16:40:03 <olivier> ... concern about that - if the media asset and captions are encrypted with different CDM, what then?
16:40:11 <olivier> ... at least here I can ask that question
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16:41:22 <olivier> ... example - we are adding requirements for deaf/blind people
16:41:32 <olivier> ... requires screen reader - many available on the market
16:41:58 <olivier> ... for average production company they would not be able to take proprietary solution and test with assistive tech
16:42:23 <olivier> ... standard promises interop
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16:42:49 <olivier> paulc: dropped link to bug related to EME and accessibility, raised by TAG -> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27054
16:43:12 <olivier> ... requirement to have similar accessibility as you would without EME
16:43:27 <olivier> ... no-one has identified any concrete changes yet
16:43:57 <olivier> dob: part of legal issues around restrictions and limitations revolves around access/accessibility
16:44:05 <olivier> ... ability to format-shift
16:44:25 <olivier> ... part of the challenge is that content is not available to the rest of the interface but could be accessed (legally) and transformed
16:44:46 <olivier> ... TAG is raising this issue but we do not have model for how video could be transformed
16:45:05 <olivier> paulc: if you remove EME what changes here?
16:45:13 <olivier> dob: the fact that it would be illegal
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16:46:30 <olivier> [scribe missed conversation, technical issues with IRC client]
16:46:58 <olivier> deborah: legal question on fair use for right to transform for accessibility reason
16:47:16 <olivier> ... case law not yet established
16:48:05 <olivier> dob: tension you've got is that would be perceived as a straw to suck content out
16:48:25 <olivier> deborah: international copyright law not yet covering this
16:48:43 <olivier> ... nothing the W3C can do right now
16:49:24 <olivier> dob: there is something normative here happening - discussion on using HTTPS to convey content (for privacy)
16:50:05 <olivier> ... one of the bugs raised is that it is often necessary to identify user
16:50:20 <olivier> ... general concern that traffic may identify user uniquely
16:50:29 <olivier> ... suggestion that communication be encrypted
16:50:58 <olivier> ... issues around that - practicality, role of w3c in raising and solving one set of privacy issues around DRM
16:51:40 <olivier> paulc: similar to discussion at IETF - discussed, answer was no
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16:52:32 <olivier> ... some people believe https MUST be used, other think it should be a SHOULD at most
16:52:43 <paulc> EME bug on usage of HTTPS:  https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26332
16:53:19 <olivier> olivier: explain that requiring https throws things like caching out of the window
16:53:39 <olivier> paulc: that was the main argument against making TLS mandatory
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16:54:30 <olivier> mark: practical issues concerning us is almost the opposite
16:54:57 <olivier> ... large volume of content, would have impact on capacity
16:55:12 <olivier> ... we don't actually like people caching our content
16:55:30 <olivier> ... causes hard to debug customer problems
16:56:06 <olivier> paulc: expect we will see this request made in other places - not just for media
16:56:45 <olivier> ddorwin: point to next session on privacy
16:57:08 <olivier> ... monitoring etc
16:57:17 <olivier> rigo: there is no option of not doing it
16:58:06 <olivier> mark: discussion of cost of flipping switch
16:59:31 <olivier> dob: feel that there is similar interaction between consensus (privacy) and awareness of challenges
17:00:22 <olivier> ... want to make sure we talk about issues that are outside of w3c
17:00:35 <olivier> ... broader copyright issue with accessibility
17:00:57 <olivier> ... problems would largely go away if legal framework was reformed
17:01:19 <olivier> mark: want to go back to specific issue with DRM and privacy
17:01:31 <olivier> ... mitigation on identifiers
17:01:49 <olivier> ... discussion would not have happened if we hadn't been doing this in w3c
17:02:27 <olivier> rigo: do you plan to expose rights metadata?
17:03:05 <olivier> ... everyone agreed (at workshop - date?) that it would be good.
17:03:24 <olivier> paulc: relationship to DRM? should probably be solved for any data
17:03:31 <olivier> rigo: sounds like a great semantic web project
17:04:03 <olivier> jfoliot: emergence of schema.org somewhat solves that
17:04:14 <olivier> ... was talking with Chaals on using metadata for accessibility
17:04:30 <olivier> ... technology is emergent, need to solve this for all data on web
17:04:52 <olivier> ... locking mechanism for encrypted content - serving metadata would add value
17:05:22 <olivier> dob: closed format or DRM means no way of deriving metadata
17:05:27 <olivier> ... so you need a system to ask
17:05:56 <olivier> ... people wanting to copy-control also want to control metadata too
17:06:20 <olivier> ... because it may be a revenue opportinuty (e.g what's playing on the radio)
17:06:45 <olivier> Attendee+ MichaelGood
17:07:02 <olivier> michael: how does EME address customer irritation?
17:07:16 <olivier> mark: use case of content subscription
17:07:42 <olivier> ... understanding that you do not own content
17:07:52 <olivier> ... EME would work for this use case alone
17:08:07 <olivier> ddorwin: we are using it for rental and purchases
17:08:17 <olivier> ... there is a difference there
17:08:35 <olivier> ... "buying" on the web is different
17:09:15 <olivier> mark: issues when advertising does not match reality. not "getting a digital copy"
17:09:48 <olivier> jfoliot: worked at Capital record - through the years music did not change but carriers did
17:09:57 <olivier> ... when you buy, you buy the carrier, not the content
17:10:15 <olivier> ... consumer irritants often about player being locked down
17:10:22 <olivier> ... putting malicious software in the player
17:11:40 <olivier> olivier: similar feeling about EME - adding malicious software to inherently open software - until now
17:12:24 <olivier> jfoliot: you are not going to convince everybody - but think that we can work to fix this perception problem
17:13:01 <olivier> ... need to do a better job at transparency / explaining the reality of the pain points
17:13:16 <olivier> ... less of a technical problem than a marketing problem
17:14:24 <olivier> paulc: AD BREAK - consider attending HTML WG meeting on Friday morning
17:14:31 <olivier> ... start at 9
17:14:39 <olivier> ... triage EME bugs
17:15:11 <olivier> ddorwin: public-restrictedmedia mailing-list where things such as fair use are being discussed
17:15:46 <olivier> dob: do think a lot of these things are within purview of w3c - we can discuss issues of e.g accessibility and wider legal context
17:15:50 <paulc> See http://www.w3.org/community/restrictedmedia/ and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-restrictedmedia/
17:16:02 <olivier> ... even though mostly engineering, good to have such discussions
17:16:08 <olivier> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:16:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-drm-minutes.html olivier
17:17:30 <olivier> Present: DOB, olivier, JCVerdie, paulc, Jerry, haakonb, James, So, Ddorwin, Bogdan, Noriya, jfoliot, Deborah, Rigo, MichaelGood
17:17:37 <olivier> rrsagent, make minutes
17:17:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-drm-minutes.html olivier
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17:26:22 <paulc> rrsagent, generate the minutes
17:26:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/29-drm-minutes.html paulc
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