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16:08:34 <olivier> RRSagent, meeting spans midnight
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16:08:56 <olivier> Meeting: Audio WG f2f meeting, TPAC day two
16:09:03 <olivier> Chair: mdjp, joe
16:09:06 <olivier> Scribe: olivier
16:09:09 <olivier> ScribeNick: olivier
16:09:20 <olivier> Topic: Review of day 1, welcome observers
16:09:28 <olivier> Editorial issues marked TPAC + Editorial but NOT ready for editing -> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues?q=is%3Aopen+label%3A%22V1+(TPAC+2014)%22+label%3AEditorial%2FDocumentation+-label%3A%22Ready+for+Editing%22+
16:09:42 <olivier> mdjp: higher level agenda today than bug squashing of yesterday
16:09:58 <olivier> ... testing, an opportunity for implementers to give an update
16:10:04 <olivier> ... discussion round on getusermedia
16:10:29 <olivier> ... planning for transition to v1 of the spec - maybe a broader discussion around v1 and the living WD
16:10:36 <olivier> rrsagent, make logs world
16:10:41 <olivier> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:10:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-audio-minutes.html olivier
16:11:00 <olivier> mdjp: also Michael Good - discussion on music notation
16:11:23 <olivier> Topic: testing
16:11:47 <olivier> mdjp: the importance of testing comes from our need to prove interoperable implementations to get to recommendation status
16:11:57 <olivier> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:11:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-audio-minutes.html olivier
16:12:18 <olivier> s/Topic: testing/Topic: Testing/
16:12:20 <olivier> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:12:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-audio-minutes.html olivier
16:12:41 <olivier> mdjp: valuable to also look at testing done by implementers
16:12:59 <olivier> ... so we can try and build upon work already done by implementers for their own testing needs
16:13:34 <olivier> joe: I have some experience testing non-web audio frameworks
16:13:51 <olivier> ... useful to have something run and see the results
16:14:00 <mdjp> chris lowis - blog post on testing
16:14:01 <mdjp> http://blog.chrislowis.co.uk/2014/04/30/testing-web-audio.html
16:14:03 <olivier> ... you need approximate yet strict criteria
16:15:16 <olivier> joe: the type of testing I fonud useful gave the ability to record "baseline", human validated capture
16:15:27 <olivier> ... sometimes validated by looking at some waveform validator
16:15:49 <olivier> ... but have not built a test suite with the scope we are looking at here
16:16:08 <hongchan> hongchan has joined #audio
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16:16:16 <olivier> mdjp: posted on IRC http://blog.chrislowis.co.uk/2014/04/30/testing-web-audio.html -> a blog post by Chris Lowis on writing tests for the web audio API
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16:16:39 <olivier> ... looking at the comments there does not seem to be a lot of activity, but someone created a test for the waveshapernode as a response to this post
16:17:04 <olivier> mdjp: use a reference output and compare output
16:17:16 <olivier> ... trickier than just comparing two results
16:17:54 <olivier> mdjp: current approach is to get community to write tests, and WG would make sure the tests move along with the spec
16:18:09 <olivier> ... very much about building our own test suite
16:18:27 <olivier> ... question of whether we (re)use work already done by implementers
16:19:40 <olivier> padenot: in our test suite there are spots that are not tested
16:19:49 <olivier> ... in FF, chrome or the W3c test suite for that matter
16:19:50 <mdjp> test suite - https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests
16:20:30 <olivier> joe: anything in FF that isn't in the W3C test suite
16:20:33 <mdjp> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/webaudio#
16:20:47 <olivier> padenot: yes, there are a LOT of tests in our test suite, they run all the time
16:21:22 <olivier> joe: sounds like what you have is much more extensive than what is in the W3C test suite
16:21:34 <olivier> joe: lots of tests in the w3c repo fail - even IDL tests
16:21:40 <olivier> padenot: probably not updated
16:21:59 <olivier> padenot: 150 test files, close to 1000 tests
16:22:03 <olivier> q+
16:22:29 <olivier> ack me
16:22:45 <olivier> olivier: question is how big would it be for full coverage
16:23:02 <olivier> padenot: when I look at code coverage what we have is all right - not 100% but close
16:23:24 <olivier> joe: if we get good code coverage it's very likely we cover the spec, but not guaranteed
16:25:56 <BillHofmann> q+
16:26:47 <olivier> olivier: W3C has long history of testing, these days the bar is much higher, with a lot of tests per feature, combinatory etc
16:27:24 <olivier> BillHofmann: (speaking for myself not Dolby) implication that there is an audit that goes on
16:27:30 <olivier> ... painful but perhaps needed
16:27:50 <olivier> ... maybe for v2 we could try and write the test before / as we write the spec
16:30:00 <olivier> joe: hard to just cook up the expected result - you need some implementation to write the test
16:30:09 <olivier> ... need to build bridges from 2 sides
16:30:20 <olivier> ... on the one side, existing tests from implementors
16:30:28 <olivier> ... on the other, spec and some tests
16:30:36 <olivier> ... if we go through the spec and annotate it
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16:32:54 <olivier> olivier: can also extract a lot of testable assertions from MUST, SHOULD keywords in the spec
16:33:12 <olivier> joe: might be best to have other people than implementers doing that analysis of the spec
16:33:19 <olivier> ... would seem fair too
16:33:32 <olivier> mdjp: sensible way forward
16:33:40 <olivier> ... how do we actually make it happen
16:34:11 <olivier> ... assumption that ChrisLo may not have enough time to take it on and lead effort at this point
16:34:30 <olivier> ... suggest we need someone to coordinate the testing work
16:34:53 <olivier> mdjp: [call for volunteer]
16:35:26 <olivier> joe: permanent benefit is exemption fro scribing. And biscuits
16:35:34 <olivier> s/fro/from/
16:37:04 <olivier> olivier: not sure if non-implementor constraint is helping
16:37:21 <olivier> joe: agree - just think it would be better if non-implementors involved in it
16:38:13 <olivier> mdjp: another action on us to communicate with other groups, get better understanding of how they do it
16:38:20 <olivier> ... SVG mentioned
16:38:38 <olivier> ... also important not to throw away work done so far - can it be used as a basis?
16:40:45 <olivier> olivier: some groups have successfully engaged with community in test-writing days
16:41:12 <olivier> joe: might do so at music conf in Boston soon
16:41:33 <olivier> padenot: also - upcoming web audio conference
16:41:40 <olivier> ... we can invite people at moz space
16:42:32 <olivier> Jerry: need to have prior undertanding of the holes in your coverage
16:43:21 <olivier> joe: we have a repository for that https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/webaudio#
16:43:46 <olivier> BillHofmann: do we have tooling that we need to do perceptual diff
16:44:14 <olivier> padenot: usually enough to have reference buffer and then compare
16:45:49 <olivier> olivier: first slice is whether the interfaces work, then all the things that can be compared with ref buffer; for the rest we can use crowdsourced testing like CSS has been doing
16:47:07 <olivier> joe: wonder how useful is audioworker to the testing?
16:47:37 <olivier> padenot: all our tests use offlineaudiocontext and SPN
16:48:00 <olivier> mdjp: would be good to start using it
16:48:29 <olivier> mdjp: would be good to get Chris Lowis on a call in near future to discuss anything we missed, understand his approach
16:48:43 <olivier> ... and then identify person/people to lead the effort
16:48:57 <olivier> joe: anyone aware of a need for the WG tests to belong to this framework
16:49:50 <olivier> olivier: not necessary - more of a case of "here's a system"
16:50:03 <olivier> joe: better to start with whichever suite has better coverage today?
16:51:10 <olivier> Topic: Browser vendor feedback - current implementation status, future plans issues and blockers
16:51:18 <olivier> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:51:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-audio-minutes.html olivier
16:51:37 <olivier> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2011/audio/wiki/F2F_Oct_2014
16:51:56 <olivier> mdjp: open the floor to implementers
16:52:20 <olivier> padenot: no big problem so far - we have pretty much everything implemented
16:52:39 <olivier> joe: anything in the way of future plans
16:52:59 <olivier> padenot: audioworker has been a bit complicated
16:53:29 <olivier> s/has been/is going to be/
16:53:52 <olivier> hongchan: resume/suspend in the works, seems hard
16:54:02 <olivier> ... rtoyg has started recently
16:54:10 <olivier> padenot: yes that will be hard
16:54:26 <olivier> joe: Jerry are you getting what you need from the group?
16:54:47 <olivier> jdsmith: see a lot of open issues we can engage in; getting awareness of where the spec is
16:54:58 <olivier> joe: any other particular areas of concern
16:55:03 <olivier> jdsmith: not right now
16:55:34 <olivier> jdsmith: we are engaged in implementing, currently assessing the areas where we might run into issues
16:55:40 <olivier> ... encouraging so far
16:55:53 <olivier> ... haven't yet looked at ambiguities in the spec
16:56:05 <olivier> ... would be what I would prioritise - no specific examples yet
16:56:29 <olivier> ... there's a lot of bugs/issues at the moment so takes time to get head around what is highest priority
16:56:42 <olivier> mdjp: good to continue the current review?
16:56:50 <olivier> jdsmith: yes
16:57:08 <olivier> joe: identification of what we discussed was the chair's take
16:57:43 <olivier> ... were trying to tackle anything which could hinder implementers looking at older version of the spec
16:58:27 <olivier> mdjp: good to continue feeding back issues, group keen to hear what may hinder implementations
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16:59:18 <olivier> [break]
17:05:20 <olivier> Topic: bugzilla
17:06:01 <olivier> discussion on how to close remaining bugs in bugzilla, as they tend to confuse people that the tracker is still open
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17:14:26 <olivier> closing bugs for web audio API on bugzilla - hoping it will not create a deluge of emails this time...
17:18:49 <olivier> all done - looks like the email address most likely to have received a lot of email was Chris Rogers', and it has been inactive for a while
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17:40:11 <hongchan> mdjp: moving onto minor/editorial issues
17:40:46 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/336
17:41:17 <hongchan> TPAC RESOLUTION: No.
17:41:39 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/328
17:42:24 <hongchan> ray: the spec text doesn't say clearly what happens when distance > maxDistance.
17:43:33 <hongchan> padenot: actually spec has the formula
17:44:10 <hongchan> joe: http://webaudio.github.io/web-audio-api/#idl-def-DistanceModelType
17:44:18 <hongchan> joe: spec has the formula
17:45:31 <hongchan> TPAC RESOLUTION: Clarify the formula. To use minimum of distance or maxDistance.
17:46:02 <hongchan> joe: this issue is the same thing - https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/326
17:46:34 <hongchan> TPAC RESOLUTION: Resolve formulas as recommended
17:47:29 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/325
17:48:02 <hongchan> joe: we're not retaining Doppler anymore. Closing.
17:48:41 <hongchan> Issue 324 - https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/324
17:48:48 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/324
17:51:18 <hongchan> rtoyg: when the panning passes the origin (zero) it makes clitche.
17:51:30 <hongchan> hongchan: this is only for HRTF. right?
17:51:43 <hongchan> rtoyg: don't recall right now. have to check.
17:52:03 <hongchan> mdjp: aren't we getting rid of panner node?
17:52:22 <hongchan> padenot: no. we will keep the old one.
17:52:31 <hongchan> TPAC RESOLUTION: Modify formula to use a continuous value as it moves through the listener location.
17:52:51 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/318
17:53:53 <hongchan> padenot: this is tricky because we need to jump back and forth between two threads.
17:54:28 <hongchan> joe: what about the 'intrinsic' value and 'computed' one?
17:54:42 <hongchan> padenot: what chrome is doing is a bit nicer, but..
17:55:16 <hongchan> padenot: this requires more talking and questions.
17:55:18 <hongchan> mdjp: so is this fundamental?
17:55:42 <hongchan> padenot: yes, the implementation between chrome and firefox is also a bit different.
17:56:22 <hongchan> mdjp: no resolution right now. moving on.
17:56:25 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/318
17:56:35 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/314
17:57:38 <hongchan> rtoyg: .createBuffer has limited in terms of sample rates.
17:57:54 <hongchan> joe: why do we have these limitations? should be removed.
17:58:56 <hongchan> rtoyg: we should specify the minimum requirements.
18:00:18 <hongchan> In chrome it supports 3k ~ 192k to make it compatible with Media.
18:00:43 <hongchan> padenot: at least 192k?
18:01:07 <hongchan> TPAC RESOLUTION: specify rate from 8KHz - 192Khz
18:01:31 <hongchan> NOTE: createBuffer also requires update to reflect this change.
18:01:51 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/307
18:02:02 <hongchan> mdjp: this is quite strightforward.
18:02:16 <hongchan> TPAC RESOLUTION: Agreed.
18:02:26 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/305
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18:03:29 <hongchan> TPAC RESOLUTION; should throw NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR exception.
18:03:55 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/287
18:04:17 <hongchan> padenot: we have it in the spec now. Closing.
18:04:52 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/281
18:05:26 <hongchan> mdjp: we continue to play to the end and not loop.
18:07:27 <hongchan> …: I'll leave it as Clarification.
18:07:34 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/269
18:07:50 <hongchan> rtoyg: this is fixed. Closing.
18:07:58 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/257
18:08:33 <hongchan> padenot: we can't close this. need more discussion.
18:09:24 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/241
18:10:27 <hongchan> padenot: this is not relevant for AudioWorker. Removing,
18:10:46 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/135
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18:12:41 <hongchan> padenot: this is about Doppler effect, so not relevant anymore. Closing.
18:13:08 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/131
18:14:24 <hongchan> rtoyg: we always do the interpolation linearly.
18:15:05 <hongchan> rtoyg: user can set whatever he/she wants to draw the curve.
18:15:47 <hongchan> rtoyg: if you don't want to do it linearly, what do you want to do?
18:16:27 <hongchan> …: that itself opens the another discussion.
18:17:06 <hongchan> padenot: we can spec it as 'linear interpolation' and open again if people want another kind of interpolation.
18:17:12 <hongchan> TPAC RESOLUTION: Spec to clarify linear interpolation. If other interpolation requires a feature request is required.
18:17:38 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/129
18:18:03 <hongchan> mdjp: sounds similar to the previous.
18:18:14 <hongchan> padenot: not relevant anymore since we decided to drop the doppler.
18:18:57 <hongchan> RESOLUTION: Arbitrary units are appropriate as doppler is being removed.
18:19:31 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/127
18:20:42 <hongchan> padenot: this is kinda closed.
18:20:49 <hongchan> mdjp: closing.
18:21:00 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/128
18:25:03 <hongchan> hongchan: we didn't reach to the conclusion on this.
18:26:20 <hongchan> mdjp: I'll make a note on this so we can come back later.
18:26:54 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/125
18:29:48 <hongchan> RESOLUTION: Do not include documentation on convolution in the spec.
18:30:59 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/121
18:31:11 <hongchan> rtoyg: don't we use double nowadays?
18:31:41 <hongchan> padenot: all the time is double and the sample should be float?
18:32:58 <hongchan> hongchan: ES is using double anyway, is it meaningful to use float in the spec?
18:33:43 <hongchan> rtoyg: we fixed some issues in internal implementation about float/double misuse.
18:34:09 <hongchan> mdjp: paul do you have the consistency in your implementation?
18:34:30 <hongchan> padenot: we're going to review the variables.
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18:36:07 <hongchan> rtoyg: if you want to use double in the spec, we don't have any problem.
18:36:07 <hongchan> padenot: yeah
18:36:39 <hongchan> rtoyg: when we convert double to float, we will lose some precision.
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18:37:34 <hongchan> rtoyg: paul do you use float internally right?
18:37:49 <hongchan> padenot: yes
18:38:41 <hongchan> rtoyg: then we should just keep both float and double in the spec. just to specify the internal difference in the implementation.
18:39:00 <hongchan> mdjp: do we have to discuss this further?
18:39:09 <hongchan> rtoyg: I am happy with leaving it as float.
18:39:14 <hongchan> padenot: yeah.
18:40:02 <hongchan> RESOLUTION: Specify float for all values except for time. Current implementations use floats internally so specifying doubles would look incorrect when values are inspected.
18:40:22 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/118
18:42:04 <hongchan> padenot: sometimes creative application requires extreme resmapling.
18:43:37 <hongchan> ChrisL: I am also arguing we want to have other types of resampling.
18:44:14 <hongchan> mdjp: are we adding some type attribute to the spec?
18:45:33 <hongchan> mdjp: can we put this as 'not quite an editorial issue' and come back later?
18:45:40 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/111
18:46:09 <hongchan> padenot: we start to explore this, but it is quite complex.
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18:47:03 <hongchan> mdjp: we start adopting CPU gauge into nodes.
18:48:08 <hongchan> padenot: voice screening or cpu saving feature when CPU is overloaded.
18:48:37 <hongchan> mdjp: we can close this one.
18:48:55 <hongchan> https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/105
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18:50:52 <hongchan> ChrisL: we can just put out the silent from the oscillator, when there is no periodic wave defined.
18:52:36 <hongchan> padenot: this might be a bigger issue - what do we when the invalid value set?
18:53:50 <hongchan> mdjp: Closing and raising wider issue around spec wide behavior on setting enum to invalid values.
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19:03:28 <hongchan> joe: we're moving onto getUserMedia with Harald.
19:09:08 <hongchan> Scribenick: hongchan
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19:10:40 <BillHofmann> Philippe asks - no prompt to play to default output devices - do we want to have a different behavior on non-default devices? (in context of access controls)
19:10:56 <BillHofmann> Scribenick: BillHofmann
19:12:00 <BillHofmann> Harald notes that headsets have to work, but it has association between input and output (vs headphone) - heuristic is if you've granted input access, implicitly granted output use case
19:12:56 <BillHofmann> Joe: should the issue be deferred to UAs?
19:13:22 <BillHofmann> Harald: would be good to have good non-normative recommendations!
19:14:10 <BillHofmann> padenot: notes that default audio devices are completely different on devices and OSes.
19:16:02 <BillHofmann> BillHofmann: concern for non-traditional UAs (like digital media adapters)
19:16:20 <BillHofmann> padenot: if from a secure origin, you can persist the choice, at least.
19:18:00 <ChrisL> "user agents MAY WISH TO allow users to give broad permissions for device access" RFC 6919
19:18:12 <BillHofmann> Philippe: want to be able to grant (for instance) generic permission to connect audio devices
19:20:47 <BillHofmann> Joe: if an existing app that plays out to default device then adds device enumeration - picking the same device shouldn't cause a prompt.
19:22:28 <BillHofmann> ChrisL: the default playout can change based on context (e.g., speakers get muted when you go to a meeting - headphones put in - speakers shouldn't be accessed without prompt)
19:23:23 <BillHofmann> general discussion on fingerprinting
19:24:17 <BillHofmann> Harald: certain information doesn't require authorization - can enumerate and get more things
19:24:36 <BillHofmann> Philippe: permission for enumeration should allow also access (input/output)
19:26:22 <BillHofmann> Harald: note that the UI may actually require information to build *before* permissions (e.g., remove camera options)
19:27:51 <BillHofmann> Philippe: perhaps the getDevices is parameterized
19:29:46 <BillHofmann> BillHofmann: what about expectation of consistent behavior (action when you expect it)
19:30:28 <BillHofmann> Philippe: initial enumerate would be based on basic UI; once you want to use the camera, you have to request user auth...
19:32:19 <BillHofmann> Joe: concern - this front-loads the permission process earlier than it might be otherwise relevant - developers will just request at the beginnning
19:33:37 <BillHofmann> Philippe: restates concern - only one auth
19:34:38 <BillHofmann> Harald: if we go down that path, should be proposed at getUserMedia/MediaCapture session; lots of negative feedback if we try to re-open
19:36:31 <BillHofmann> Joe: Summarizing - not assuming anything that might happen in the task force - there's a proposal that would permit enumeration of output devices - will that be transparent or opaque
19:36:37 <BillHofmann> Harald: same as input devices
19:37:56 <BillHofmann> BillHofmann: why not a whole lot of info on output device characteristics
19:39:13 <BillHofmann> Harald: more information will be forthcoming once the security issues are addressed
19:41:02 <BillHofmann> Harald: Note that things like characteristics of output device are things that Audio WG will be able to help
19:42:36 <BillHofmann> padenot: passthorugh of compressed streams not relevant to AudioWG - however, Firefox does things like that for e.g. MediaElement playback of MP3 to headphones.
19:43:25 <BillHofmann> Harald: if we want to extent output device, it'd be appropriate to propose as extensions afterwards
19:43:36 <BillHofmann> Harald: after v1.0
19:44:21 <BillHofmann> Joe: at what points in the lifecycle of a context - when can it be attached
19:44:39 <BillHofmann> padenot: should be switchable - actually relevant in e.g. videochat case
19:45:16 <BillHofmann> Joe: would you change the AudioContext samplerate when you switch?
19:45:33 <BillHofmann> padenot: no - you'd put a resampler at the end - too much impact on the graph otherwise.
19:48:11 <BillHofmann> (All): concerns about order of operations - do you need to know the sample rate of the output device before you can build the AudioContext?
19:48:41 <BillHofmann> padenot: some suggestion to apply constraints to output device (e.g. sampleRate) when creating the context
19:50:32 <BillHofmann> Joe: propose a way for the audio api to understand characteristics of devices
19:50:51 <BillHofmann> (All): again, concern of fingerprinting
19:52:26 <BillHofmann> Philippe: proper division of labor: characteristics come from WebAudio, permission/API comes from MediaCapture
19:52:34 <BillHofmann> Harald: seems reasonable
19:53:10 <BillHofmann> Joe: Let's break for lunch!
19:53:16 <BillHofmann> (All): general hurrahs!
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20:49:39 <BillHofmann> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:49:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-audio-minutes.html BillHofmann
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21:02:49 <BillHofmann> Topic: transition to V1 of the spec.  Assign and review actions.
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21:04:52 <BillHofmann> mdjp: is it even appropriate to discuss a timeframe here?
21:05:56 <BillHofmann> padenot: yes - definitely, with the changes we've discussed.  What is out of scope?  Plugins, what else? AudioWorker definitely needed, allows us to work around missing nodes.
21:06:40 <BillHofmann> mdjp: suggests that AudioWorker changes the paradigm
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21:07:00 <BillHofmann> padenot: always there as a concept, but ScriptProcessor was broken
21:07:34 <BillHofmann> mdjp: do native nodes become less relevant since you can implement everything in script?
21:08:11 <BillHofmann> padenot: we need both
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21:10:21 <BillHofmann> cwilso: doesn't think that v1 target timeframe is the most important thing - need to be sure that we've made it possible to implement the use cases
21:11:06 <BillHofmann> cwilso: (particularly referring to VST-related issues/plugins)
21:13:19 <BillHofmann> cwilso: a number of other architectural issues before we can say, "We're done"
21:13:59 <BillHofmann> cwilso: and yet - don't think we should have the "pure living standard" approach - need to ship something.
21:14:36 <BillHofmann> mdjp: without putting a time limit on it - what are the outstanding actions?
21:17:09 <BillHofmann> BillHofmann: (speaking for himself) - do we have the list of issues that are the real blockers for completing the use cases? (The P0s?)
21:17:51 <BillHofmann> cwilso: we need to keep prioritizing bugs
21:20:48 <BillHofmann> (All) more discussion around issues
21:21:04 <BillHofmann> mdjp: we need to validate that we've met the use cases, or documented why we've dropped them.
21:22:18 <BillHofmann> mdjp: we need to step back from the process stage (CR/LC/...) and determine what steps we need to get to the point that we're ready to do it.
21:23:29 <BillHofmann> mdjp: we need to schedule out our work to that point - a matrix of use case vs bugs + features
21:23:43 <BillHofmann> ACTION: mdjp to put together matrix
21:23:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-115 - Put together matrix [on Matthew Paradis - due 2014-11-04].
21:24:27 <BillHofmann> cwilso: what is the date for CR?
21:26:34 <BillHofmann> mdjp: LC q2 2015; CR q4 2015
21:29:41 <BillHofmann> mdjp: important for us to be crisp and drive to clarity on use cases, and have an API we're happy with, rather than "just ship it"
21:31:23 <BillHofmann> mdjp: proposal to review use cases
21:33:31 <BillHofmann> (All) reviewing use cases http://www.w3.org/TR/webaudio-usecases/
21:35:27 <BillHofmann> mdjp: video chat - questions re speed
21:35:45 <BillHofmann> cwilso: could you spread out TBL speaking?  Seems like.
21:36:42 <BillHofmann> mdjp: 3D game with music and convincing sound effects
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21:38:36 <BillHofmann> cwilso: the reality here is that this is a good example of where performance is going to be really critical; there are subtleties
21:40:15 <BillHofmann> cwilso: humblebundle is an example of something that can help us run this down
21:40:57 <BillHofmann> padenot: unreal engine 4 shooter can run in emscriptm - and uses pannernode, etc.
21:41:05 <BillHofmann> mdjp: online music production tool
21:41:35 <BillHofmann> mdjp: one big issue is VST
21:42:58 <BillHofmann> mdjp: this is the major "problem use case" - and may need to be revised to bring up to date with what we understand (e.g., VSTs)
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21:43:54 <BillHofmann> observer: do we really *need* VSTs?
21:44:55 <BillHofmann> cwilso: talked to a bunch of software providers who assumed that VSTs would be supported; however we don't have a way of supporting inter-app audio communication
21:47:33 <BillHofmann> cwilso: note that for instance an include of a third party JS into e.g. an Abelton online tool - there's a trust issue
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21:49:51 <BillHofmann> observer: proposing that you could release without support of VSTs, for instance, as long as you could implement at a later date.
21:50:29 <BillHofmann> mdjp: yes, that's more or less where we've come to.  we need to make a decision about it - could just stick to use case, meaning no VST support; or look at broader concerns.
21:54:57 <BillHofmann> mdjp: action at the moment is to look at the use cases vs bugs and determine where the real problem use cases are, and where we absolutely do need.
21:55:43 <BillHofmann> Joe: I think that when we created the use cases we didn't expect to match the capabilities of all competitors; I would argue that it's time to deliver.
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21:58:18 <BillHofmann> mdjp: I think we can quickly identify those few key issues and drive to a v1 spec that we can work from (it can change, but...)
21:59:26 <BillHofmann> mdjp: Next up... Chris Wilson on WebMIDI
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22:00:46 <joe> cwilso: current editor's draft of WebMIDI is at http://webaudio.github.io/web-midi-api/
22:01:17 <joe> cwilso: standards progress - I've been pushing this forward for a while. some minor edits last month
22:01:50 <joe> cwilso: 12 open issues in github. only a couple interesting ones needing resolution, state attribute for instance
22:02:11 <joe> cwilso: need to deal with limitations on sharing of ports. InputMap and OutputMap need some reworking
22:02:36 <joe> cwilso: a couple issues I'd like people to weigh in on but other than that it's pretty well done.
22:02:43 <joe> cwilso: open and close are still issues
22:02:58 <joe> cwilso: hotplugging is critically important
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22:03:50 <joe> cwilso: mozilla is working on WebMIDI but only one person (labor of love)
22:04:07 <joe> cwilso: before end of 2014 Chrome will give intent to ship email to Blink list
22:04:17 <joe> cwilso: right now users have to enable experimental flag in Chrome
22:04:27 <joe> cwilso: Chrome for iOS is not really Chrome, so MIDI won't be there
22:04:44 <joe> cwilso: but... it could work...
22:07:20 <joe> joe: what questions to the group would help WebMIDI move forward?
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22:07:32 <joe> cwilso: there are 3 issues that I'd welcome feedback on
22:07:58 <joe> cwilso: Issue 75 (MIDI port open) problem is per-app exclusivity of MIDI ports
22:08:06 <joe> cwilso: the API doesn't have this concept
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22:10:22 <joe> cwilso: implication of open and close w/r/t state
22:11:17 <joe> joe: issue thread is long, need to read it to respond: https://github.com/WebAudio/web-midi-api/issues/75
22:14:53 <joe> cwilso: in the API, there is no concept of open/close, but some underlying OSs require this b/c of exclusive access
22:16:14 <joe> cwilso: inclination is to add explicit open/close, maintain state, and implicitly open when a port is used
22:18:37 <joe> cwilso: virtual midi ports (issue 45)
22:19:16 <joe> cwilso: if you want to build a soft synth in one browser tab and access from another browser tab, you have no way of doing that today
22:19:28 <joe> cwilso: part of why I want to punt this is that it's hard to do
22:19:50 <joe> cwilso: not just in browser env, but also if you want to provide a web-based synth to Ableton Live as a quasi native app
22:20:27 <joe> cwilso: this carries impl burden of implementing a virtual MIDI device driver
22:21:17 <joe> padenot: there's a webrtc demo using webmidi using multiple browsers communicating using webRTC data channels
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22:56:53 <olivier> rrsagent, draft minutes
22:56:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-audio-minutes.html olivier
22:57:42 <olivier> Topic: Music Notation
23:00:09 <olivier> joe: will be the subject of a breakout session tomorrow
23:01:07 <olivier> TBA - link to joe's presentation?
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23:11:01 <olivier> joe: rough proposal - form a CG to further consider path forward on a new markup language drawing on past wisdom, eliminate backward-compat and IP concerns
23:13:54 <olivier> [Michael Good, VP R&D makemusic]
23:21:10 <olivier> michael: showing how widely musicXML is implemented, explains desire to eventually transfer to a standards org when mature
23:21:30 <olivier> ... in order to better support the industry's transition from printed to digital sheet music
23:28:38 <olivier> rrsagent, draft minutes
23:28:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-audio-minutes.html olivier
23:29:52 <olivier> shepazu: w3c CG would be great, but considering AMEI/MMA and W3C have been working together would like some joint publication
23:30:20 <olivier> ... would recommend not bringing it to W3C without support of music-focused orgs
23:31:11 <olivier> joe: a CG can be very pluralistic
23:31:20 <olivier> shepazu: anybody can join
23:31:37 <olivier> ... needs chairs who can curate/cultivate the community
23:32:13 <olivier> ... output could be a w3c CG import (musicXML + changes)
23:33:34 <olivier> olivier: maybe more as a way to look to the future?
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23:35:58 <olivier> TomWhite: likelihood of transfering the community, not just the work?
23:36:35 <olivier> michael: understand that transfer would involve work, evolution would not happen magically
23:36:50 <olivier> joe: hopeful to get new contributors to do some of the heavy lifting
23:37:06 <olivier> ... build new momentum
23:37:18 <olivier> TomWhite: can work be done by any?
23:37:42 <olivier> shepazu: no need to be members. CG contribution as individuals, open to all
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23:42:11 <olivier> Topic: rapping up!
23:42:45 <olivier> mdjp: anything we haven't covered tin past 2 days
23:42:51 <olivier> s/tin/in/
23:43:48 <olivier> cwilso: one issue I may need more input
23:44:11 <olivier> ... https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/373
23:44:36 <olivier> padenot: it's an issue because sometimes you are creating dozens of nodes per sec
23:44:50 <olivier> ... e.g in gaming every sound effect would be a buffersourcenode
23:45:09 <olivier> cwilso: easier with fire&forget and the reusable nature of nodes
23:45:45 <olivier> ... previously there was (well known?) limit of 5 playing audio elements
23:45:52 <olivier> ... which you needed to have in cache, decoded
23:46:17 <olivier> ... however, if you want reusable sound player
23:46:31 <olivier> ... you can do that but you will have to have a finite set of sounds playing at one time
23:46:38 <olivier> ... number of voices playing
23:46:55 <olivier> ... which you could track, perhaps using buffersourcenode, but will be messy
23:47:43 <olivier> ... using CPU to clean up buffersourcenodes not ideal
23:48:11 <olivier> joe: minimal amount of GC collected, no?
23:48:20 <olivier> cwilso: no, I mentioned that for particular app
23:49:00 <olivier> joe: worst case scenario - hundreds of objects a second
23:49:05 <olivier> padenot: not extreme
23:49:24 <olivier> ... FPS example
23:49:34 <olivier> joe: GC hundred nodes a sec - is it that bad?
23:49:45 <olivier> cwilso: problem is that GC is unpredictable
23:50:31 <olivier> joe: just want to understand if GC causes actual problem
23:51:08 <olivier> cwilso: came from a bug report saying GC was causing problems, because they were using streaming, decoding track and creating buffersourcenodes and chaining them
23:51:19 <olivier> ... if you stutter every 5 seconds, probably bad
23:52:04 <olivier> joe: seems like there will be GC regardless, in this case
23:52:27 <olivier> cwilso: problem remains in a "machinegun" use case
23:54:13 <olivier> padenot: what if you could re-trigger
23:54:30 <olivier> joe: could not play simultaneously
23:54:41 <olivier> padenot: yes but developer could use an array of them
23:55:19 <olivier> joe: seems problem is not well quantified
23:56:09 <olivier> padenot: could be a quick fix
23:56:34 <olivier> cwilso: there is data associated to the bug report
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00:02:20 <olivier> cwilso: do we still have playingstate in buffersourcenode?
00:02:23 <olivier> all: no
00:02:57 <olivier> joe: suggest to defer - this can be done with audioworker. Prefer not to do away with fire and forget model too lightly
00:04:38 <olivier> [discussion whether audioworker would create garbage there]
00:06:23 <olivier> cwilso: how long do we defer?
00:07:21 <olivier> joe: we actually need to commit to leaving a few things alone for a while while we focus on "v1"
00:10:18 <olivier> [discussion on next draft to be published in /TR]
00:15:45 <olivier> mdjp: focus on mainly audioworker for the next heartbeat pub?
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00:18:28 <ChrisLilley>   19 December through 5 January 2015
00:22:01 <olivier> olivier: suggest group could schedule publications according to big issues which would require significant review
00:24:50 <olivier> mdjp: sounds like tagging all issues with milestones is next action
00:29:54 <olivier> [discussion on what we want to commit to by next teleconference]
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00:34:35 <olivier> Topic: next meeting
00:34:49 <olivier> joe: two weeks from Thu?
00:34:59 <olivier> cwilso: 13th Nov
00:36:04 <olivier> ChrisLilley: would it be OK to have a list of what can be published/what needs more work
00:36:09 <olivier> cwilso: unlikely by then
00:37:23 <olivier> ... by then I will either have detailed solution for inputs/outputs or marked all issues
00:37:38 <olivier> ... but probably not both
00:38:06 <olivier> mdjp: suggest milestones first, address issues second
00:39:07 <olivier> joe: time box milestone process so there is enough time to resolve audioworker, migrate to a new WD
00:39:27 <olivier> ... by the moratorium
00:41:38 <olivier> RESOLUTION: statement of intent - the group aims to publish a new WD with audioworker before the moratorium
00:42:01 <olivier> [adjourned]
00:42:05 <olivier> rrsagent, make minutes
00:42:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/28-audio-minutes.html olivier
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18:24:55 <ghaudiobot> [web-audio-api] padenot opened pull request #384: Specify the filter type to be used for the BiquadFilterNode (gh-pages...gh-pages) https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/pull/384
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17:03:44 <ghaudiobot> [web-audio-api] cwilso pushed 1 new commit to gh-pages: https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/commit/a03cee5ff55e413ef9ee3a2d3e6bea1af3347e74
17:03:44 <ghaudiobot> web-audio-api/gh-pages a03cee5 Chris Wilson: Fixes #82.
17:42:36 <ghaudiobot> [web-audio-api] cwilso pushed 1 new commit to gh-pages: https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/commit/a595573fa8546310e39bd35b798357b4c9a62caa
17:42:36 <ghaudiobot> web-audio-api/gh-pages a595573 Chris Wilson: Fixes #93.
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