15:33:49 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 15:33:49 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-wai-wcag-irc 15:33:51 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:33:53 Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG 15:33:53 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start 33 minutes ago 15:33:54 Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 15:33:54 Date: 27 October 2014 15:33:57 rrsagent, do not start a new log 15:39:45 zakim, call Ponderosa 15:39:45 ok, MichaelC; the call is being made 15:39:46 WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has now started 15:39:48 +Ponderosa 15:42:10 Zakim, agenda? 15:42:10 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda: 15:42:12 1. Recap of Sunday meeting [from AWK] 15:42:12 2. Discuss ways to increase engagement by working group members [from AWK] 15:42:12 3. Long-term vision / WAI2020 [from AWK] 15:42:12 4. Plan for reaching out to stakeholders [from AWK] 15:42:12 5. Review of survey data analysis with EO and WAI-DEV project [from AWK] 15:42:13 6. QuickRef improvement planning work [from AWK] 15:42:13 7. Discussion of Institutional Memory project [from AWK] 15:42:13 8. Discussion of efficiency improvements for Working Group processes [from AWK] 15:42:13 9. Review of actions and next steps [from AWK] 15:47:56 tzviya has joined #WAI-WCAG 15:48:04 chaals has joined #wai-wcag 15:51:09 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:51:09 On the phone I see Ponderosa 15:53:02 MarkS has joined #wai-wcag 15:53:36 wilhelm has joined #wai-wcag 15:55:01 Zakim, Ponderosa has Michael Cooper, AWK, Wilhelm, Eric, Evangelos, Wei_Wang, Can_Wang, Mark_Sadeki, Loretta, Marc_Johlic, Tzviya, Mary_Jo 15:55:01 +Michael, Cooper, AWK, Wilhelm, Eric, Evangelos, Wei_Wang, Can_Wang, Mark_Sadeki, Loretta, Marc_Johlic, Tzviya, Mary_Jo; got it 15:55:31 s/Mark_Sadeki/Mark_Sadecki 15:55:50 yatil has joined #wai-wcag 15:56:00 Zakim, Ponderosa also has Kenny 15:56:00 +Kenny; got it 15:56:34 MichaelC has changed the topic to: WCAG FtF, using Google Hangouts for telephony, ask for an invitation here; Wifi W3C password fullpotential 15:57:38 MichaelC has changed the topic to: WCAG FtF; Wifi W3C password fullpotential 15:57:40 Zakim, who is on the phone? 15:57:40 On the phone I see Ponderosa 15:57:41 Ponderosa has Michael, Cooper, AWK, Wilhelm, Eric, Evangelos, Wei_Wang, Can_Wang, Mark_Sadeki, Loretta, Marc_Johlic, Tzviya, Mary_Jo, Kenny 15:58:07 agenda: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2014/10/tpac-2014 16:03:39 -> http://www.w3.org/2014/10/26-wai-wcag-minutes.html Minutes of yesterday´s meeting 16:04:10 agenda? 16:04:18 zakim, take up item 1 16:04:18 agendum 1. "Recap of Sunday meeting" taken up [from AWK] 16:05:22 Loretta has joined #wai-wcaG 16:05:31 scribe:Loretta 16:05:45 AWK: Summary of yesterday's meeting 16:06:43 Meeting with Mobile Task Force, noting that some of the techniques they want to propose don't fit into the WCAG2 success criteria. Decided not to worry about this, but use it as input for potential future directions. 16:07:37 Also, reviewed process so TF and WG can work together more smoothly. TF will prioritize techniques work and send to WG for review and feedback. 16:08:18 We looked at some of the survey data from the recent survey on the WCAG documents (guidelines, understanding, techniques). 16:08:36 We received ~75 responses to the survey, generating 30 pages of written comments. 16:09:21 Also discussed the long term vision for WCAG - ideas, concerns, thoughts. 16:09:40 This is also on today's agenda. 16:10:46 Questio: what is the Mobile Task Force producing? 16:11:23 AWK: Some modifcations of existing techniques, some new techniques, and gap analysis for things that aren't covered by the WCAG2 success criteria. 16:11:54 AWK: there is also a Cognitive Task Force, producing similar output. 16:12:07 s/Questio:/Evangelos:/ 16:13:20 Evangelos: This is a good opportunity, but challening to relate techniques to accessibility support issues. 16:14:03 marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag 16:14:26 Evangelos: we are going through one of these techniques in detail to evaluate it, and understanding and controlling the environment is very important. THis becomes even more critical for mobile. 16:14:49 Mobile techniques work: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments 16:15:41 AWK: We have seen changes proposed to test procedures to allow testing with mobile devices, and new examples to demonstrate application of the technique in a mobile environment. 16:15:55 Zakim, take up item 1 16:15:55 agendum 1. "Recap of Sunday meeting" taken up [from AWK] 16:16:02 Zakim, close item 1 16:16:02 agendum 1, Recap of Sunday meeting, closed 16:16:04 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 16:16:04 2. Discuss ways to increase engagement by working group members [from AWK] 16:16:08 ZAkim, take up item 2 16:16:08 agendum 2. "Discuss ways to increase engagement by working group members" taken up [from AWK] 16:16:33 s/agendum 1. "Recap of Sunday meeting" taken up [from AWK]// 16:16:37 AWK: This is a challenge (and probably not just for WCAG). 16:17:10 AWK: On a call we typically have 8-10 people attending. We usually have a survey; sometimes not filled out until right before the call. 16:17:35 AWK: The WG list shows ~150 people, not all of whom are on the WG. 16:17:58 AWK: THere are also multiple task forces that people participate in. 16:18:28 Zakim, Ponderosa also has Rocky 16:18:28 +Rocky; got it 16:19:08 AWK: People are busy, and it is hard to find time to do work. Any thoughts about how to improve the level of engagement? 16:20:09 AWK: We recognize that the purpose of the WG has changed over time. Before 2008, it was about getting the standard out the door. Now it is more maintenance mode for the standard, because we aren't changing it. BUt there is still lots of work to do to hlep people undersrand the standard, etc. 16:20:44 MC: People disengage when they feel like things aren't relevant. Do people question the relevance, and what do we do to make it more relevant? 16:21:09 MC: Is maintaining techniques and understanding doing that. 16:21:55 XX: In publishing, there is a lot of interest; people need to know how to make their textbooks accessible. 16:22:29 q+ Marc 16:22:41 Mark: There is a lot of discussion on WAI-IG and in WCAG about interpreting WCAG. This could be turned into new techniques. 16:22:41 ack marc 16:23:02 q+ to mention resource transformation 16:23:05 Marc: relevancy issue - comments about people who are frustrated about submitting techniques that get rejected. 16:23:13 q+ to mention contribution supports 16:23:28 Marc: Do we need more education on how to write good techniques, and what the WG is looking for. 16:23:42 q+ 16:23:59 ack m 16:23:59 MichaelC, you wanted to mention resource transformation and to mention contribution supports 16:24:48 -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/TECHS-SUBMIT/ Techniques Submission Form 16:24:51 MC: We talked yesterday about whether the resources are what they need to be to support the public. If we were working on better resources, would people feel better about what they are accomplishing? But revising a 1000 page document is a big undertaking. 16:25:55 MC: I don't think there has been a technique submitted through the public path that has been accepted. People tend to submit things that are incomplete, and they don't know what we are looking for even when we try to document it. 16:26:25 MC: How to enable WG members more? Recent switch to github to make changes easier to propose. 16:26:46 ack l 16:27:00 LGR: I'm hearing that there is a lot of external interest 16:27:12 LGR: not hearing why someone would join the WG to provide that support 16:27:54 Marc: How do we get feedback to the companies about the importance of the WG member contributions? 16:28:12 Wen_He has joined #wai-wcag 16:28:45 Marc: Other work is often prioritized higher than standards work. 16:29:31 Evangelo: have you thought about accreditation of techniques? 16:30:12 q+ to ask observer opinions 16:30:27 q+ to ask about support materials vs guideline development 16:30:27 Evangelo: we were creating a hub (wiki) for information about accessibility. we were encouraging people to add content (links to other info). We found we needed to add some kind of accreditation mechanism, so people get explicit credit for their work. 16:30:42 q+ 16:30:44 q+ to talk about being where the stakeholders are 16:31:24 Evangelo: Have people submit test samples, and abstract the test samples to a technique. 16:31:46 q+ to talk about WG transformation of semi-formed input 16:31:51 Marc: Is Shadi's database doing something like that? 16:31:53 ack m 16:31:54 MichaelC, you wanted to ask observer opinions and to ask about support materials vs guideline development and to talk about being where the stakeholders are and to talk about WG 16:31:57 ... transformation of semi-formed input 16:32:00 Evangelo: I'm also involved in that work. 16:32:13 q- 16:32:31 Zakim, Wen_He is Rocky 16:32:31 sorry, Kenny, I do not recognize a party named 'Wen_He' 16:32:38 MC: One challenge is that we get rough ideas for techniques and it is hard for WG members to turn that into a technique. It is hard to find WG members to take on this work. 16:32:50 Zakim, nick Wen_He is Rocky 16:32:50 sorry, yatil, I do not see a party named 'Rocky' 16:33:10 zakim, nick yatil is EricE 16:33:11 sorry, yatil, I do not see a party named 'EricE' 16:33:14 zakim, nick yatil is Eric 16:33:14 sorry, yatil, I do not see a party named 'Eric' 16:33:30 MC: Can we put resources where the people we want to reach are looking. Would this help? Are there copyright issues that would block this? 16:34:05 Joshue has joined #wai-wcag 16:34:36 ack t 16:34:37 MC: Question for people who aren't in the WG: why are you not members? Would be helpful feedback for us. 16:35:11 XX: In the ebook world, the Daisy consortium is working to build a tester. It is a lot of work, and accessibility is rarely binary. 16:35:41 ebooktest.org 16:36:20 s/XX:/Tzviya:/ 16:36:25 Mary Jo: For me it is a bandwidth issue, and we have Marc representing us. 16:36:48 Mary Jo: I am involved in various task forces, including cognitive. 16:36:52 jamesn has joined #wai-wcag 16:37:22 Mary Jo: hard to juggle all I'm doing. I tend to submit technique ideas rather than complete technique submissions. 16:38:01 Wilhelm: For me, it is a bandwidth issue. I was thinking about drive by contributions. I've written a bit of code but haven't written the words about it.. May be a typical pattern, 16:39:11 Wilhelm: I joined the group becuase WCAG is now part of legislation, and everyone is scrambling to understand these requirements. Now I am thinking that our government has an organization to educate people. Why can't we leverage this work better. 16:39:27 MC: Canada has a similar group, but we haven't managed to work together effectively 16:39:45 AWK: Maybe we should be analyzing why this isn't working better. 16:40:10 YY: We have different motivations. We are research scientists, and we are motivated by the interesting problems we can find. 16:40:29 Evangelos has joined #wai-wcag 16:40:56 s/YY/Can_Wang 16:41:13 q+ 16:42:27 Can_Wang: we study the guidelines to find possible areas for investigation, and we also helped with the translation of WCAG into Chinese. 16:42:48 Judy has joined #wai-wcag 16:42:56 AWK: Especially as the mobile and cognitive task forces do their work, we expect to uncover more areas that need research. 16:44:13 Can_Wang: We find inconsistency between what WCAG2 requires and the experience of disabled people. Users are not satisfied with their experience. It seems there is still a lot of room for improvement. 16:44:31 Yatil: Writing supporting documents is not the exciting thing that writing a standard is. 16:45:07 Yatil: People say WCAG is a lot to read, and then you need to read the rest of the supporting documents. Improving this experience would improve engagement. 16:45:19 q+ to say improving our resources is not just better for the world, it´s better for us 16:45:31 +[IPcaller] 16:45:39 zakim, [IPcaller] is joshue 16:45:40 Yatil: On another group, people will work on pretty boring stuff. 16:45:41 +joshue; got it 16:45:44 q+ to straw poll if people think what we do is not a priority, or how we do it is hard 16:45:58 Judy_clone has joined #wai-wcag 16:46:12 ack m 16:46:12 MichaelC, you wanted to say improving our resources is not just better for the world, it´s better for us and to straw poll if people think what we do is not a priority, or how we 16:46:15 ... do it is hard 16:46:19 zakim, mute me 16:46:19 joshue should now be muted 16:46:37 zakim, who is on the phone? 16:46:37 On the phone I see Ponderosa, joshue (muted) 16:46:38 Ponderosa has Michael, Cooper, AWK, Wilhelm, Eric, Evangelos, Wei_Wang, Can_Wang, Mark_Sadeki, Loretta, Marc_Johlic, Tzviya, Mary_Jo, Kenny, Rocky 16:46:44 1? 16:46:48 MC: WE talked yesterday about how to improve the resources for the end users. I hear you say we should make it easier to work on the resources. 16:46:49 s/1?// 16:46:52 q? 16:46:57 q- 16:46:59 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:46:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-wai-wcag-minutes.html Joshue 16:47:13 MC: We talked about making an example the first thing people find. This is how Wilhelm said that he started. 16:47:58 MC: Do people feel like what we are doing is a prirority and we just have resource conflicts, or do we think we should be focusing on something different 16:48:09 +David_MacDonald 16:48:17 XX: I am not a WG member. I use your documents all the time. 16:50:40 MC: Question for David McDonald about Canadian government work, and why those agencies are't engaging with us more directly. 16:50:50 DM: There is a cost involved. 16:51:13 q+ 16:51:17 ack me 16:51:18 ack 16:51:24 DM: THe departments are looking out for themselves. I often end up as a proxy for them with the working group. 16:52:10 JO: I work with government groups, and think the high cost of getting involved keeps them from working with us. 16:52:43 zakim, q? 16:52:43 I see no one on the speaker queue 16:52:43 JO: THe current process takes too miuch time commitment - immersion. 16:53:08 MaryJo has joined #wai-wcag 16:53:15 JO: Accessibility has dropped off the radar a bit. I still have work, clients, but it doesn't seem to have the same imperative as it did 5-6 years ago. 16:53:18 Here it is crazy busy 16:53:31 MC: Several people in the room said the contrary. Maybe it varies regionally. 16:53:35 I'll dial back in momentarily... taking a call... 16:54:21 zakim, mute me 16:54:21 joshue should now be muted 16:54:27 AWK: We expect there will be a new version of Section 508 released at some point. We expect there will be a flurry of activity there. This seems like what Wilhelm is experiencing in Norway. 16:55:11 AWK: THose times are a great opportunity to communicate that this is not THAT hard. WHen people come to our documents, they get the impression that it si REALLY hard to do, maybe just from the amount they need to read? 16:56:02 AWK: Recent WG weekly meeting has been: respond to public comment, or review technique from one of the task forces or created in response to a public comment. 16:56:23 AWK: Do people find this engaging, or would we rather find an easier way to handle comments, approve techniques, etc. 16:57:08 AWK: Can we handle those in a more asynchronous way, so we could do different work on the call? 16:57:28 Wilhelm: Synchronous is hard for me; asynchronous is much better. 16:57:42 AWK: For people in China, Australia the time of our call is not convenient. 16:58:17 shawn7 has joined #wai-wcag 16:59:00 Marc: I like the calls. I'll see new situations or find out new information. The difficulty is that I find the W3C tools very hard to work with. Can't read the different fields of the form easily, there is no link. I spend the entire 30 minutes for a WCAG task just getting to the point where Im ready to do something. 16:59:51 back 16:59:53 JN: THe survey works pretty well, and having the call seems like the only way we ever converge on approving a technique. 17:00:07 MC: WOuld we use a wiki style where people just make changes? 17:00:24 JN: Yes, but that means people need to go back and review after changes have been made? 17:00:39 ZZ: Can you just file bugs to handle things? 17:00:52 MC: I feel inundated by mailing lists that have bugs. ANd I start ignoring them. 17:01:04 s/ZZ/David Burns 17:01:22 ZZ: We use bugs for different components, and count on people to monitor their component? 17:01:35 MC: Maybe people who care can monitor the component. 17:01:45 AWK: That is the current process with survey and call. 17:02:16 Wilhelm: We are struggling with the same things in our working group, and the component/bug process is what seems to work best. 17:02:46 ZZ: Bugs set up so that it goes only to the owner, and then responses are sent only to people who add themselves to the bug. 17:03:26 JN: Only downside to bugs is that whoever has the most bandwidth sometimes wins the bug war, 17:03:48 shawn has joined #wai-wcag 17:04:01 LGR: It will make things more flexible but there may be looser deadlines 17:04:18 q? 17:04:48 AWK: We have investigated using bugzilla. Concerned about whether it is accessible enough. 17:05:28 AWK: We also need some way to let anyone submit a comment. Anyone who has an account can submit comments, but is that too high a bar, since some of our comments come from people who are not tecnical. 17:06:00 AWK: May need some way to let people email comment and get it entered to bugzilla by someone. 17:06:11 ZZ: That is whjat we do in our WG. 17:06:25 AWK: Can the submitter see the bug without an account? 17:06:45 q+ 17:06:47 ack me 17:06:48 ZZ: When a spec change is made, the commit number goes in to the bug. 17:07:02 ack 17:07:37 JO: WHat if we only did a call every 2 weeks, and pushed some work to the asynchronous channels? We could see how it went. 17:07:57 q+ 17:08:25 MC: IN IndieUI we meet every 2 weeks. In practice, not much gets done between meetings. 17:08:38 MC: Other groups have other experiences, but it takes management. 17:09:11 ack d 17:09:15 zakim, close the q 17:09:15 I don't understand 'close the q', AWK 17:09:23 zakim, mute me 17:09:23 joshue should now be muted 17:09:25 zakim, close queue 17:09:25 ok, MichaelC, the speaker queue is closed 17:09:32 DM: I've never seen any success with anything but a weekly call. 17:09:52 DM: To have success, I think it would need to be pretty structured. 17:19:28 -David_MacDonald