15:34:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #indie-ui
15:34:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-indie-ui-irc
15:34:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:34:07 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #indie-ui
15:34:09 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be INDIE
15:34:09 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_Indie()11:00AM already started
15:34:10 <trackbot> Meeting: Independent User Interface Task Force Teleconference
15:34:10 <trackbot> Date: 27 October 2014
15:34:11 <MichaelC> rrsagent, do not start a new log
15:34:21 <MichaelC> zakim, call Monterey
15:34:22 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
15:34:25 <Zakim> +Monterey
15:34:51 <kurosawa> kurosawa has joined #indie-ui
15:34:55 <MichaelC> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:34:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P1, Monterey
15:35:01 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P1 is Andy_Heath
15:35:01 <Zakim> +Andy_Heath; got it
15:35:08 <MichaelC> zakim, call Ponderosa
15:35:08 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
15:35:10 <Zakim> +Ponderosa
15:38:42 <Zakim> -Ponderosa
15:38:57 <MichaelC> zakim, call Ponderosa
15:38:57 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
15:38:58 <Zakim> +Ponderosa
15:39:26 <Zakim> -Ponderosa
15:51:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #indie-ui
15:56:50 <MichaelC> MichaelC has changed the topic to: IndieUI F2F at TPAC; Monday 27 October beginning 16:00Z; Zakim 46343#; Wifi W3C password fullpotential
16:02:42 <joanie> joanie has joined #indie-ui
16:03:51 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #indie-ui
16:04:15 <Ryladog> Scribe: Katie Haritos-Shea
16:04:47 <Ryladog> trackbot, start telcon
16:04:49 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:04:51 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be INDIE
16:04:51 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_Indie()11:00AM already started
16:04:52 <trackbot> Meeting: Independent User Interface Task Force Teleconference
16:04:52 <trackbot> Date: 27 October 2014
16:06:20 <Ryladog> zakim, this will be WAI_Indie
16:06:20 <Zakim> ok, Ryladog, I see WAI_Indie()11:00AM already started
16:06:48 <Ryladog> Scribe: Katie Haritos-Shea
16:06:52 <smaug> smaug has joined #indie-ui
16:07:15 <Ryladog> ScribeNick: Ryladog
16:07:52 <Ryladog> Meeting: IndieUi Working Group F2F and teleconference
16:08:16 <Ryladog> Topic: Agenda for the F2F
16:08:29 <Ryladog> JS: Summary so far
16:09:07 <Ryladog> JS: We will discover where the Events is when we meet wit WebApps and Content editing TF this afternoon
16:09:32 <Ryladog> Buy only WAI Indie UI will be interested in finishing the Use Context Module
16:09:53 <Ryladog> So the suggestion is to focus on that and do what we nee to do to get us to last cal
16:10:48 <richardschwerdtfeger>  https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html
16:12:28 <Ryladog> RS: So what is here mostly Apple focus. Subtitles was altered because that is what is used in Apple. I am just wondering is quite enough for what we want o do
16:12:57 <Ryladog> and I am not sure. We have the screenreader, what happens if the magnifier is running
16:13:54 <Ryladog> They have something that is limited on iOS. They have a zoom feature. If we are going to do this- can we get other things in here that the user is going to be ale to us
16:14:37 <Ryladog> Do we release this as a last call. Right now I see what is in here that are featues that CURRENTLY are in the OS that get turned on
16:15:03 <Ryladog> Are there any Keyboard features that need to be turned on that we need to capture
16:15:33 <Ryladog> Enabling StickyKeys - thise are not anything that are going to effect web content
16:16:09 <Ryladog> Joanie: Maybe a control that tells the app to swithch to web
16:16:45 <Ryladog> RS: You mght have a low vision reader that doent need a screen reader turned out to perserve the performance
16:17:48 <Ryladog> Schema dot org has some good things. Magnifiers , accessibility test tools all the thongs like that. You need the aria semantics to position things for focus
16:18:19 <Ryladog> For accessibility test tools I want to turn on the features so I can test.
16:18:34 <Ryladog> We are going to need some of the other things
16:19:00 <Ryladog> We are going to need a little bit more than is in here.
16:19:38 <kurosawa> Latest Editors Draft of User Context http://rawgit.com/w3c/indie-ui/master/src/indie-ui-context.html
16:19:39 <Ryladog> AH: I am looking at my iPhone - there are tons of things in here that we dont have in our document
16:19:59 <Ryladog> RS: We wanted a small set initially that will egt widely implemented
16:20:31 <Ryladog> RS: I think it would be good to have the interoperability for schema.org. Do you recall the name Andy?
16:21:29 <Ryladog> RS: It is going to - the OLD terms were AT interoperable and API interoperable
16:21:56 <Ryladog> AH: The elephant in the room - I need this an it is not avaible
16:22:17 <Ryladog> JS: The they are not using IndieUI
16:22:35 <Ryladog> AH: The business arguements are quite difficlut
16:22:47 <Ryladog> AH: For preferences with eBooks
16:23:03 <Ryladog> JS: Let add and tak about the User Profile
16:23:17 <Ryladog> AH: If we could establish that then we are good to go
16:23:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.a11ymetadata.org/the-specification/
16:23:39 <Ryladog> JS: You could pass it around and everyone on all devices
16:24:29 <Ryladog> RS: I want Accessibility API is a term and has the values aAPI the form is text, (this is from Schema.org)
16:24:31 <richardschwerdtfeger>     AndroidAccessibility
16:24:31 <richardschwerdtfeger>     ARIA
16:24:33 <richardschwerdtfeger>     ATK
16:24:34 <richardschwerdtfeger>     AT-SPI
16:24:36 <richardschwerdtfeger>     BlackberryAccessibility
16:24:37 <richardschwerdtfeger>     iAccessible2
16:24:39 <richardschwerdtfeger>     iOSAccessibility
16:24:40 <richardschwerdtfeger>     JavaAccessibility
16:24:41 <richardschwerdtfeger>     MacOSXAccessibility
16:24:42 <richardschwerdtfeger>     MSAA
16:24:43 <richardschwerdtfeger>     UIAutomation
16:25:00 <Ryladog> KHS: The search engines are all using this - we had called it API interoprrable
16:25:36 <Ryladog> JS: If obe of these thing s is turned on then we know that we have to turn on the ARIA
16:26:29 <Ryladog> JS: There is no reason why you cant pass this. We could have it delimited it should be WAI ARIA> I think this is good and it is what browsers man are using
16:26:59 <Ryladog> the user doesnt have to identify that they are using AT - obe coukd also be using a test tool
16:27:27 <Ryladog> we hae MSAA and iAccessible 2 and WAI ARI would be togther. I would like top Propsoe that we dd
16:28:25 <Ryladog> RESOLUTION: propose that we inlude the Accessibility API stiing from Schema.org as a space delimited set of values in the form of text
16:30:32 <Ryladog> RS: because this is being used by search and providers we need to include this. Unrelated: do we want to include the saftey hazzard stuff in hear
16:30:39 <Ryladog> KHS: Yes
16:32:05 <Ryladog> KHS: I am thinking this would be a good sellbecause governements would want to push inplementation for saftey reasons
16:33:39 <Ryladog> RS: We need to involve who Browser manufacturers in here. If you have any .Accessibility Inspector (MAC) - you could get it trigger it in the settings
16:34:20 <Ryladog> JS: They are actually looking for content with Accessibility Featiure in Schema.org
16:34:46 <Ryladog> s/Featiure/Feature
16:34:55 <richardschwerdtfeger>     alternativeText
16:34:55 <richardschwerdtfeger>     annotations
16:34:57 <richardschwerdtfeger>     audioDescription
16:34:58 <richardschwerdtfeger>     bookmarks
16:35:00 <richardschwerdtfeger>     braille
16:35:01 <richardschwerdtfeger>     captions
16:35:03 <richardschwerdtfeger>     ChemML
16:35:04 <richardschwerdtfeger>     describedMath
16:35:06 <richardschwerdtfeger>     displayTransformability
16:35:07 <richardschwerdtfeger>     highContrastAudio
16:35:09 <richardschwerdtfeger>     highContrastDisplay
16:35:10 <richardschwerdtfeger>     largePrint
16:35:12 <richardschwerdtfeger>     latex
16:35:13 <richardschwerdtfeger>     longDescription
16:35:15 <richardschwerdtfeger>     MathML
16:35:16 <richardschwerdtfeger>     none
16:35:18 <richardschwerdtfeger>     printPageNumbers
16:35:19 <richardschwerdtfeger>     readingOrder
16:35:21 <richardschwerdtfeger>     signLanguage
16:35:22 <richardschwerdtfeger>     structuralNavigation
16:35:24 <richardschwerdtfeger>     tableOfContents
16:35:25 <richardschwerdtfeger>     taggedPDF
16:35:27 <richardschwerdtfeger>     tactileGraphic
16:35:28 <richardschwerdtfeger>     tactileObject
16:35:30 <richardschwerdtfeger>     timingControl
16:35:31 <richardschwerdtfeger>     transcript
16:35:32 <richardschwerdtfeger>     ttsMarkup
16:35:33 <Ryladog> RS: This is where they are looking for content. We would have to write definitions and preferences.
16:35:33 <richardschwerdtfeger>     unlocked
16:35:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/Accessibility#accessibilityFeature_in_detail
16:36:12 <Ryladog> AH: It wold be worded slightly different. "I NEED control..." and we should do the simpe ones anyhow
16:36:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> setting accessibilityHazard:
16:36:43 <richardschwerdtfeger>     flashing
16:36:44 <richardschwerdtfeger>     noFlashingHazard
16:36:45 <richardschwerdtfeger>     motionSimulation
16:36:47 <richardschwerdtfeger>     noMotionSimulationHazard
16:36:48 <richardschwerdtfeger>     sound
16:36:49 <richardschwerdtfeger>     noSoundHazard
16:37:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> accessibilityControl:
16:37:18 <Ryladog> RS: How may of these do we want to put in there. They should be on a raodmap as for when we want toput eaach one we feel is relavant to our needs in to the spec
16:37:25 <richardschwerdtfeger>     fullKeyboardControl
16:37:25 <richardschwerdtfeger>     fullMouseControl
16:37:27 <richardschwerdtfeger>     fullSwitchControl
16:37:28 <richardschwerdtfeger>     fullTouchControl
16:37:29 <richardschwerdtfeger>     fullVideoControl
16:37:30 <richardschwerdtfeger>     fullVoiceControl
16:37:32 <Ryladog> RS: They have some very good stuff
16:37:44 <Ryladog> RS: This might be..
16:37:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> accessMode
16:37:59 <richardschwerdtfeger>     auditory
16:38:00 <richardschwerdtfeger>     tactile
16:38:01 <richardschwerdtfeger>     textual
16:38:03 <richardschwerdtfeger>     visual
16:38:04 <richardschwerdtfeger>     colorDependent
16:38:06 <richardschwerdtfeger>     chartOnVisual
16:38:07 <richardschwerdtfeger>     chemOnVisual
16:38:09 <richardschwerdtfeger>     diagramOnVisual
16:38:10 <richardschwerdtfeger>     mathOnVisual
16:38:11 <richardschwerdtfeger>     musicOnVisual
16:38:12 <richardschwerdtfeger>     textOnVisual
16:38:23 <Ryladog> AH: We would want search control, and voice control - whtere we would want keyboard and mouse I amot sure
16:38:47 <Ryladog> RS: These are less likely and oe controversial
16:39:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> hasAdaptationm text:  	Identifier of a resource that is an adaptation, for accessibility purposes, for this resource.
16:39:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> isAdaptationOf Text: Identifier of a resource for which this is an adaptation, for accessibility purposes.
16:39:17 <Ryladog> JS: his is for Context.next
16:39:32 <Ryladog> s/hishis
16:39:40 <Ryladog> s/his/This
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16:40:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> use of book extensions:
16:40:12 <Ryladog> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
16:40:13 <richardschwerdtfeger>     EBook/DAISY202
16:40:14 <richardschwerdtfeger>     EBook/DAISY3
16:40:15 <richardschwerdtfeger>     EBook/Mp3
16:40:17 <richardschwerdtfeger>     EBook/EPUB2
16:40:18 <richardschwerdtfeger>     EBook/EPUB3
16:40:19 <richardschwerdtfeger>     Ebook/BRF
16:40:20 <richardschwerdtfeger>     EBook/PDF and other formats, mobi, etc.
16:40:21 <richardschwerdtfeger>     Paperback/Braille
16:40:26 <Ryladog> rrsagent, make minutes
16:40:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-indie-ui-minutes.html Ryladog
16:40:48 <Ryladog> trackbot, status?
16:41:21 <Ryladog> RS: I think we should hold off on the book stuff. But I think the hazard stuff is areally big one
16:41:36 <Ryladog> JS: What are we going to map hazards to?
16:42:07 <Ryladog> AH: The vocabulary can be used
16:43:11 <joanie> q+ to ask two basic questions should time permit
16:43:24 <Ryladog> RS: The thing is audio description we would want - yes we do have it for version
16:43:35 <Ryladog> JS: It should be called video description
16:44:11 <Ryladog> AH: We just published a standards in SC35 that is audio description
16:44:26 <Ryladog> JS: Can you send me that or file a bug Andy?
16:44:29 <Ryladog> AH: Yes
16:44:52 <Ryladog> JS: We have a whole range we would want
16:45:03 <janina_> q?
16:45:12 <janina_> i
16:45:15 <janina_> ackk j
16:45:32 <Ryladog> Joanie: My question about hazards - who commuicates these values and communicatedsthose to developers. Is it browser oe OS settings
16:45:38 <janina_> ack jo
16:45:38 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to ask two basic questions should time permit
16:46:12 <Ryladog> RS: It can be either one. It can come from OS system settings - they would easy to put in and have a first elease.
16:46:50 <Ryladog> Joanie: If an OS environemnt does not currently have these hazard settings does an OS need to get them?
16:47:10 <Ryladog> RS: Yes, or they need to use a browser that can provide them
16:47:34 <Ryladog> JS: Lets picjk the hazard stuff and mark it AT risk
16:47:57 <Ryladog> RS: I thnik it would be very good to do that
16:48:10 <janina_> zakim, mute andy
16:48:11 <Zakim> Andy_Heath should now be muted
16:48:30 <Ryladog> Joanie: With my gnome hat - these are not in gnome. We would want to do that
16:49:13 <Ryladog> JS: We coud start them out as browser setting and the eventually to go the Gnome. Should I file  bug?
16:50:07 <Ryladog> Joanie: If we call this accessibility (and not for everybody) we can get this in to Gnome right now
16:50:14 <joanie> q?
16:50:36 <janina_> zakim, unmute andy
16:50:36 <Zakim> Andy_Heath should no longer be muted
16:50:39 <janina_> zakim, unmute andy
16:50:39 <Zakim> Andy_Heath was not muted, janina_
16:50:55 <joanie> q+ To ask the second question which is why key echo and not any other screen reader settings?
16:51:05 <Ryladog> RS: Let look at the rest of that list.....high contrast audio, long descr...I dont knwo that we tackle these now - maybe exceot MathML
16:51:23 <Ryladog> RS: I would prefer to have teahcer deliver MathML
16:51:33 <janina_> ack jo
16:51:33 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to ask the second question which is why key echo and not any other screen reader settings?
16:53:26 <Ryladog> Joanie: Looking at the screen reader setting it specifically mentions key-echo, if this os important to communicate it for developers - why are not the others there. So, it this actually important?
16:53:43 <Ryladog> JS: Now you are going to get the semantics
16:54:11 <Ryladog> Joanie: I am just confused about why typing-echo belong here?
16:55:13 <Ryladog> Joanie: My question is why is it here at all? If it is important, why isnt for other things?
16:55:43 <Ryladog> JS: Let remember we have to impmements a spec here
16:56:10 <Ryladog> JS: Status: for typing-echo is at Risk
16:57:03 <Ryladog> JS: Cogn TF
16:57:31 <Ryladog> Joanie: I though I saw a setting for a verbosity setting on my MAC
16:58:33 <Ryladog> AH: We need some principle - those that are needed y the market NOW. We also need to strongly say is getting these things into and out of the device developers are working on
16:58:53 <Ryladog> JS: That would ut the impetus behind everything else
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16:59:09 <Ryladog> AH: We can see that they are useable on other devices
16:59:38 <Ryladog> JS: We realy care about being sucessful
17:00:05 <Ryladog> JS: 2 things will push succuss - portability of user preferences and the other is support for testing
17:00:24 <Ryladog> JS: Do we wnt a proposal?
17:01:00 <Ryladog> JS: The stocking horse is HAZARD - how can they say no to hazard?
17:02:33 <Ryladog> RS: Safari they have an accessibility setting - never use font size smaller than 9 - I can see them easily adding - click if you want flashing to be abled/disable. You can actally pass these things with out any trouble
17:03:00 <Ryladog> RS: Some of the other stuff like TTS matkup - that will take alot more effort.
17:03:23 <Ryladog> RS: Do we want to go for Hazard and the Accessibility API
17:04:19 <Ryladog> Kurosawa: Web content does not need to know the AAPI
17:04:58 <Ryladog> RS: I would agree but if you had a java applcation you might have a deofferent version of a plug in that cant get turned on
17:05:28 <Ryladog> RS: In those cases you might want to know it. Beyond plugins - I agree with you
17:05:56 <Ryladog> RS: Do we want to go for Hazard and the Accessibility API? Yes
17:06:01 <Ryladog> KHS: Yes
17:06:54 <Ryladog> RS: I think it would be good to get these two in for a start.
17:07:11 <Ryladog> Joanie: Who needs to know that you support UIAutomation?
17:07:24 <janina__> janina__ has joined #indie-ui
17:07:26 <Ryladog> RS: If you are a plugin manufacture
17:07:43 <Ryladog> trackbot, status?
17:08:18 <Ryladog> v
17:08:27 <Ryladog> rrsagent, make minutes
17:08:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-indie-ui-minutes.html Ryladog
17:08:28 <janina__> ii/msg michael, When does WCAG plan to break?
17:08:37 <Ryladog> rrsagent, make log public
17:09:21 <janina__> ii
17:10:08 <Ryladog> RS: We might want to have a certain level atK...in general the browser amnufactures are getting away from plugins
17:11:09 <Ryladog> RS: I ccant think of many reasons why you need to know the native platform
17:11:33 <Ryladog> JS: We want to try tomake it easier for people to do the right thing
17:14:50 <Ryladog> RS; I figure if I am running an accessibility test tool, the broswer would throught he API and the IndieUi Context - and I was running JavaMonkety or AccProbe I would want to cnvey that Ineed this kind of information because I am using this tool
17:15:30 <Ryladog> AH: But we just had a binary control for this is ..
17:16:19 <Ryladog> RS: Example, "I am looking for an app, here is my setting" we can expose that through the browser
17:17:43 <Ryladog> KHS: It is a user preference that the user maynot even know about - and know that they need to - to get an app that meets the needs they have set
17:19:04 <Ryladog> AH: OK, I acept that as a use case now
17:19:54 <Ryladog> RS: The API provides a greater degree of specificity that can eb used by search engines and content providers
17:20:30 <Ryladog> JS; We stop for break in 10 minutes
17:21:23 <Ryladog> RS: I am looking at the Accessibility features in Schema.org - it is really rich
17:22:16 <Ryladog> RS: We do have some of them, this is alot to put into the OS. I dont think we would get an arguement form James if we wanted include MathML
17:22:35 <Ryladog> AH: I thinkwe would hear screamng if we try to include it all nw
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17:26:14 <Ryladog> RS: MathML for accessibilty it is good for screenreading, cognituve, navigaton, a study showed Math complhemsion 10 to 15 % for every user
17:26:38 <Ryladog> RS: We could alos state that if we have the ability to suport it
17:27:06 <Ryladog> RS: Abd the digital publishing has an interest in supporting MatthML
17:27:25 <Ryladog> RS: Yes.
17:30:22 <jcraig_> jcraig_ has joined #indie-ui
17:33:41 <Ryladog> RS; Let takes a look at the list for things for content that we have today; audio description, captions, high contrast audio, high contrast display, MathML, long description,
17:33:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> printPageNumbers
17:38:10 <Ryladog> RS: continues...., sign language, tagged PDF, timing control, transcript, unlocked,
17:38:40 <Ryladog> JS: Breaktime for 1/2 an hour
17:41:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-indie-ui-minutes.html MichaelC
17:41:57 <MichaelC> chair: Janina_Sajka
18:19:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #indie-ui
18:21:52 <Ryladog> RS: When do we want to deliver
18:21:57 <Ryladog> JS; ASAP
18:22:26 <Ryladog> RS: For the next version lets look at Reflow
18:24:22 <Ryladog> AH: Lets do a plan and actions now a mini road map
18:24:38 <Ryladog> RS: OK, Do you know if jmaes is here today?
18:24:44 <Ryladog> RS: He is not in IRC
18:24:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> s/jmaes/james/
18:25:00 <Ryladog> JS: I expect he will be here this afternoon
18:28:00 <Ryladog> Katie: I just tried pinging James
18:28:11 <Ryladog> JS: He may not be here
18:29:03 <Ryladog> JS: Do we want to see if James agrees with our list or do we just assign peices of this
18:29:17 <Ryladog> AH: I think we should do the later
18:30:03 <Ryladog> JS; He had been recently moved and changed positions
18:31:34 <Ryladog> Joanie: How is the AT disclosure being indicated in the spec?
18:32:36 <Ryladog>  / says everyone is searching the spc for Joanies question
18:34:27 <Ryladog> JS: Lets divy up and start drafting text
18:34:38 <Ryladog> RS: I have to cycles at the moment
18:35:04 <Ryladog> JS: Reccomendation in the fall??
18:35:23 <Ryladog> RS: If you can give me a couple of months I cam take the Action item to
18:37:42 <Ryladog> ACTION: Rich to draft accessibility preferences from the two Schems.org for accessibilityFeature and accessibilityHazard, and accessibiltyAPI - based on today meeting
18:37:42 <trackbot> 'Rich' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., rschwer, rsimpson3).
18:38:35 <Ryladog> s/Schems.org/Schema.org
18:40:04 <Ryladog> ACTION: rschwer to draft accessibility preferences from the two Schems.org for accessibilityFeature and accessibilityHazard, and accessibiltyAPI - based on today meeting
18:40:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-95 - Draft accessibility preferences from the two schems.org for accessibilityfeature and accessibilityhazard, and accessibiltyapi - based on today meeting [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2014-11-03].
18:41:59 <jcraig> jcraig has joined #indie-ui
18:42:42 <Ryladog> rrsagent, list attendee
18:42:42 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendee', Ryladog.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:43:10 <Ryladog> trackbot, status?
18:43:45 <Ryladog> JC: I have an action item to build CSS isneeded for several prefereences
18:44:22 <Ryladog> JS: The Schema.org preferences should be wrtable that you can share across devices interoperable
18:45:38 <Ryladog> RS: MS has put user profiles in the cloud so they are portablable across their platform
18:45:59 <jcraig> q+ to mention CSS.customMedia.set()
18:46:58 <Ryladog> Joanie: typing echo use case?
18:48:16 <Ryladog> JC: We have seperate - Google Docs and pages for iCloud, they have to implement these apps as self-voicing app at this point bc there is no API for it
18:49:21 <Ryladog> JC: typing echo - It effects how the user types. There are two implementation in Google Docs and pages for iCloud. Not everybody has their typing echo set is consistant ways
18:50:50 <Ryladog> JC: Google Doc uses the DOM and - anyway it is chunky - there was never an intention of sharing this with just any application
18:51:53 <Ryladog> Joannie: Is it a possible an ARIA component could fullfill this need
18:52:38 <Ryladog> JC: I think a JS API is the best way to address this -  ARIA does great things but not for control.
18:53:11 <Ryladog> JC: Increment and Decrement and others...
18:53:35 <Ryladog> RS: I prefer to not do anything device dependent at all for any of this kind of stuff
18:54:23 <Ryladog> JC: Google has their own proposall. If we can make one API that works for everybody. I could just do an announce API
18:55:11 <Ryladog> RS: I cannot submit any changes to the IndieUI actions - I need to change the date for my Action Item
18:55:35 <Ryladog> JC: I have m2 topics I want to discuss
18:56:38 <Ryladog> TOPIC: GPII
18:56:56 <jcraig> Topic: CSS custom media queries
18:56:57 <jcraig> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/mediaqueries-4/#script-custom-mq
18:57:37 <jcraig> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/mediaqueries-4/#custom-mq
18:57:53 <Ryladog> JC: There is this ability for authoring shorthand in CSS - myou can define custom media queries
18:58:09 <jcraig> @custom-media --narrow-window (max-width: 30em);
18:58:24 <jcraig> @media (--narrow-window) {
18:58:24 <jcraig>   /* narrow window styles */
18:58:25 <jcraig> }
18:58:46 <Ryladog> JC: You can say my narrow window media query matches my - it is basically a shorhand
18:59:08 <Ryladog> JC: We could relate it to varioys user setting or style sheet like aGPII setting
18:59:17 <jcraig> for example: GPII user style sheet:
19:00:03 <Ryladog> nosoundhazard
19:00:17 <jcraig> @custom-media --gpii-transcript (screen);
19:01:22 <jcraig> @media (--gpii-transcript) { .transcript { display: block; } }
19:01:36 <Ryladog> JC: This allowsa namespaced and propoerty - assign it to a media query screen. It is always going to
19:02:24 <Ryladog>  RS: It seems we have mediaqueries doing one thing and we are doing the same thing
19:02:34 <Ryladog> JC: There is definitely overlap
19:02:51 <Ryladog> JC: The GPII could be implemented with custome media queries
19:02:57 <jcraig> window.matchMedia("--gpii-transcript");
19:03:27 <Ryladog> JC: via matchmedia when the value changes
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19:03:50 <Ryladog> JC: as an implementation technique
19:04:07 <Ryladog> AH: I though t it was what are we going to include in the User Context
19:04:31 <Ryladog> JC: It is around what is implemntatble in the major OSs at the current moment
19:05:23 <Ryladog> JC: We have tactile graphic andtachtile graphic but dont know if we should od  thatow
19:05:29 <Ryladog> JS: hat is for 2.0
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19:05:40 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'this meeting spans midnight <- if you want a single log for the two days', timeless.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
19:05:52 <Ryladog> RS: We want to determine for what is going to go into 1.0 to deliver in the spring
19:06:03 <Ryladog> JC: Like full switch control,
19:06:34 <Ryladog> JC: It seems that fullswitchcontrol would eb better implemented as timeconstraightlenthened
19:06:59 <Ryladog> JC; the UI isnt the limitation. Timing is the real limitation
19:07:17 <Ryladog> JC: If the only way to move something is a complex gesture
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19:07:54 <Ryladog> JC: If we could take the things thhan at are not OS checkboxes - then we should talk about others
19:08:54 <Ryladog> JC: We had the audio description/video desription - we audio-described-video is what we have been using
19:09:26 <Ryladog> JS: there are text files
19:09:57 <Ryladog> AH: One reason for audio is also used to provide for performances
19:11:10 <Ryladog> JC: The reason we audio-described-video becasue it doesnt include audio that does include video
19:12:28 <Ryladog> JS: After lunch we will talk about Events and with Ben Peters from MS
19:13:11 <Ryladog> JC: One of the features in Schema.org
19:13:57 <Ryladog> JC: Alot of the MathML WG are involved in a wikipedia' Chrome and IE pulled out of MathML. But Firefox does and Apple does
19:14:13 <Ryladog> JC: You can interact with soem portion of it
19:14:38 <Ryladog> JC: It is better for the screenreader users to mainuplate the native MathML
19:15:18 <Ryladog> JC: This is something that they wold be interested in...this custom media feature may be one way to provide that
19:15:32 <Ryladog> JC: First they have to determine if there is a need
19:16:13 <Ryladog> JC: It highjacks the media queries to get the prefernces
19:17:08 <jcraig> So in the user style sheet: @custom-media --gpii-prefers-mathml (screen);
19:17:10 <Ryladog> JC: you would have a user stylesheet, is there a GPII code for MathMl over images Rich?
19:17:25 <Ryladog> RS: One sec I am pulling up all the GPII stuff
19:18:15 <jcraig> web author (for example: wikipedia) could do: @media (--gpii-prefers-mathml) { /* render mathml, not svg */ }
19:19:12 <Ryladog> TK: Site specific
19:19:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://160.40.50.183/cloud4all/ontology/1.1/index.html
19:20:37 <Ryladog> AH: Will GPII be he only game in town?
19:21:05 <Ryladog> JC: The custom media queries would not be GPII specific, it is completely general
19:21:17 <Ryladog> JC: It has ot been implemented yet
19:21:53 <Ryladog> AH; The issue that concersn me is ow you get these things in and then how you ge t this stuff out
19:22:31 <kurosawa> s/Site specific/customs media seems to be site specific preferences/
19:23:05 <Ryladog> JC: They should not be implemented as top level prefixes
19:23:32 <Ryladog> JC: GPIIorka runs on device with a value - which makes it extensible
19:23:46 <Ryladog> JS: There needs to be a core set
19:24:01 <Ryladog> JC: The core set the browser  should expose
19:24:25 <Ryladog> JC: Audio descriptions would be one of those
19:25:13 <Ryladog> RS: and things that can be programmatically determinable such as when using testing tools
19:25:55 <Ryladog> JC: If you are using custiomisable media queries there is no additional security model - we could use that with  user prompt
19:27:33 <Ryladog> rrsagent, make minutes
19:27:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-indie-ui-minutes.html Ryladog
19:27:46 <Ryladog> trackbot, status?
19:28:55 <Ryladog>  rrsagent, list attendee
19:28:55 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendee', Ryladog.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
19:29:24 <Ryladog> zakim, this will be WAI_Indie
19:29:24 <Zakim> ok, Ryladog, I see WAI_Indie()11:00AM already started
19:29:54 <Ryladog> Chair: Janina Sajka
19:32:40 <Ryladog> RS: Let takes a look at the list for things for content that we have today; audio description, captions, high contrast audio, high contrast display, MathML, long description, printPageNumbers, sign language, tagged PDF, timing control, transcript, unlocked....
19:33:18 <Ryladog> Rich to draft accessibility preferences from the two Schems.org for accessibilityFeature and accessibilityHazard, and accessibiltyAPI - based on today meeting
19:33:48 <Ryladog> s/two/three
19:34:38 <Ryladog> RS: Looking at Safari's prefernece - we could easily add accessibility settings
19:34:51 <Ryladog> JC: Not quite so easy
19:35:23 <Ryladog> LC: The current recommendation is never to use flash components
19:35:39 <Ryladog> JC: It is a setting that doesnt actally make an changes on the system
19:36:00 <Ryladog> JC: If taht setting then disabled all aimations then that is a solution
19:36:12 <Ryladog> s/taht/that
19:36:39 <Ryladog> JC: We have a reduced motions setting in iOS
19:36:54 <Ryladog> RS: I went threw every preference that you have in iOS
19:37:41 <Ryladog> AH; What about settings for external devices/things that you might plug-in
19:38:05 <Ryladog> JC: A heart monitor is a good example, do you have any others
19:38:19 <Ryladog> AH: I cant think of one off the top of my head
19:40:51 <Ryladog> JS: Let go to lunch for an hour
19:41:54 <Ryladog> zakim, make minutes
19:41:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', Ryladog
19:41:59 <Zakim> -Andy_Heath
19:42:13 <Ryladog> rrsagent, make minutes
19:42:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-indie-ui-minutes.html Ryladog
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20:12:05 <Zakim> +JasonJGW
20:14:39 <Zakim> -JasonJGW
20:30:49 <Zakim> +JasonJGW
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21:18:37 <MarkS> scribe: MarkS
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21:20:46 <MarkS> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
21:21:21 <MarkS> Topic: Events and WebApps
21:21:56 <MarkS> JS: Joanie, you have some questions about selector api
21:22:28 <MarkS> JC: You may want to send any questions to the list
21:22:40 <MarkS> ...computer role and computed label was a hot topic
21:22:50 <MarkS> s/computer/computed
21:23:11 <MarkS> JS: we're starting with content editable
21:23:29 <MarkS> JC: this is primarily about indie ui events overlapping with ...
21:24:27 <MarkS> ...we should leave this meeting to the overlap on those two topics, editing, navigation events, dismiss, select next
21:24:51 <MarkS> ...primary goal is to make sure whatever we decide doesn't preclude them, and whatever they decide doesn't preclude us.
21:25:40 <MarkS> JC: If we want indie UI to succeed we have to frame it in the context of mainstream
21:26:11 <MarkS> JS: I intend on the behalf of the group that it was never our intent to be accessibility, user context has a lot of accessibility specific stuff in it.
21:26:24 <MarkS> JC: user context isn't necessarily accessibility specific.  font stuff is just user pref
21:26:40 <MarkS> ...I would probably phrase it in the context of accessibility is a client of this
21:27:25 <MarkS> ...CJK input methods often have a floating candidate window that needs to know where the insertion point is, range of char before and after, etc.  a lot of other things that assistive technologies are also clients of
21:28:12 <MarkS> JS: where I am coming from with this is that we have an interest in continuing to participate, especially in the results.  Its not just accessibility work, but that we had a finger in the development
21:28:39 <MarkS> ...is this is going to get reconstituted under WebApps, we're for that.  we want to participate.
21:28:56 <MarkS> ...they are interested in the events spec here.
21:29:11 <MarkS> ...charters are expiring.  this will be a bigger conversation here
21:29:33 <MarkS> JC: I got the feeling that some people were interested in events here, but that others were not interested in expanding the scope of their work to include it
21:30:18 <MarkS> ...if we raise things int he context of a11y specific, some people will plug their ears a bit. rather have an extensible API that has more broad benefit
21:30:46 <MarkS> JS: when this gets to charter review, it will be about deliverables.  I think there is a lot of good work there.
21:31:55 <MarkS> JS: maybe we want to raise user context along with events.  the user is prompted to share their location with the site whenever they  request that api. wouldn't want anything that could give away some aspect of user privacy
21:32:44 <MarkS> JC: Should we plan an agenda for things we want to get through?
21:33:10 <MarkS> JS: our agenda is for an overview of how these pieces fit together moving forward.  they will do a show and tell.
21:34:12 <MarkS> JC: invert colors is now implemented in web kit
21:34:13 <MarkS> ...i have a user stylesheet demo
21:34:46 <MarkS> ...its implemented in CSS, not an indie UI solution, but CSS display preferences
21:35:26 <MarkS> ...if they use standard controls and enable high contrast, safari will re-render those controls, but that might not work for custom controls, so we put it in CSS
21:36:04 <MarkS> ...we would like a general way to request a user specific setting.
21:36:32 <MarkS> ...potentially even whether or not a screen reader is active.
21:36:45 <MarkS> ...opt-in or prompt basis.
21:37:21 <MarkS> KHS: do we want to bring up hazards at all?
21:37:46 <MarkS> JC: if we bring up hazards, there is no ui for ... closest thing we have is reduced motion
21:38:06 <MarkS> RS: we talked about putting those at risk.  Could put it in the next release.
21:38:21 <MarkS> JC: we should aim for a general api for those
21:39:23 <MarkS> JD: a few weeks ago I was asked to review the spec.  If you read over the spec, it seems like a FPWD.  It seem so early in the process...
21:40:34 <MarkS> ...apparently in the old days, there was support for multiple non-contiguous ranges.  Nobody is implementing it, the number of ranges is only 1. Is it going to be deprecated?  it may have accessibility implications.  In ATI and SPK2 we already support non-contiguous ranges.
21:40:46 <MarkS> ...now might me the time to let those platforms no.
21:41:15 <MarkS> ...in the selection api there is support for multiple non-contiguous ranges of selection.
21:41:50 <MarkS> ...officially, the selection api spec leaves that support it but says nobody is implementing it, so its limited to one range.
21:42:34 <MarkS> ...if they're not going to deprecate, we need to know what the chances are that it will be implemented so we can make it accessible.
21:43:41 <MarkS> JC: I thnk we have 3 topics for today, events, user context and selection api.  Its not specifically related to Indie UI, but it is related to editing
21:43:52 <MarkS> ...should we bring up computed roles and labels?
21:45:14 <MarkS> JD: right now the current Selection API does not have any method for identifying selectable or not selectable.  before and after text do not allow you to select that text.  I as an assitive technology might want to use that info
21:47:14 <MarkS> ...CSS generated content, screen readers will read it.  but user agents do not allow you to select that text, it doesn't come up in a find.  We have a selection api that doesn't lety ou know if its selectable or not
21:47:53 <MarkS> ...if I have a case where a user needs to select that text, the AT needs to know that certain text is selectable or not.
21:48:50 <MarkS> JC: is your UC limited to pseudo elements or also CSS selection.
21:49:31 <MarkS> JD: i think there should be a way to programmatically determine if text is selectable or not
21:50:59 <MarkS> ...what happens if you start selection in a node that is full selectable and end in a node that is fully selectable, but is interrupted by a node that it is not selectable.
21:51:49 <MarkS> JC: what happens if you do something in a select range.
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23:48:43 <MichaelC> topic: Debrief from WebApps
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23:50:35 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
23:51:06 <jcraig> JD: re: user intent
23:51:30 <jcraig> benefit is that AT will understand the "why" behind various a11y events
23:52:00 <jcraig> for example, on Twitter, unmodified "j" and "k" move to previous and next tweets in timeline
23:52:14 <jcraig> so expected behavior is that AT will move to and read
23:52:23 <janina_> janina_ has joined #indie-ui
23:52:44 <jcraig> but the list of events Orca receives is:
23:52:47 <joanie> KEYBOARDEVENT: type=0 id=106 hw_code=44 modifiers=0 event_string=(j) keyval_name=(j) is_text=True timestamp=8151288 time=1414453229.184978 keyType=printable shouldEcho=False
23:52:50 <joanie> vvvvv PROCESS OBJECT EVENT object:property-change:accessible-name vvvvv
23:52:53 <joanie> ^^^^^ PROCESS OBJECT EVENT object:property-change:accessible-name ^^^^^
23:52:55 <joanie> vvvvv PROCESS OBJECT EVENT object:property-change:accessible-name vvvvv
23:52:58 <joanie> ^^^^^ PROCESS OBJECT EVENT object:property-change:accessible-name ^^^^^
23:53:00 <joanie> vvvvv PROCESS OBJECT EVENT object:text-changed:delete:system vvvvv
23:53:03 <joanie> ^^^^^ PROCESS OBJECT EVENT object:text-changed:delete:system ^^^^^
23:53:05 <joanie> vvvvv PROCESS OBJECT EVENT object:children-changed:add:system vvvvv
23:53:08 <joanie> ^^^^^ PROCESS OBJECT EVENT object:children-changed:add:system ^^^^^
23:53:10 <joanie> vvvvv PROCESS OBJECT EVENT object:text-changed:insert:system vvvvv
23:53:13 <joanie> ^^^^^ PROCESS OBJECT EVENT object:text-changed:insert:system ^^^^^
23:53:15 <joanie> vvvvv PROCESS OBJECT EVENT focus: vvvvv
23:53:18 <joanie> ^^^^^ PROCESS OBJECT EVENT focus: ^^^^^
23:53:20 <joanie> vvvvv PROCESS OBJECT EVENT object:state-changed:focused vvvvv
23:53:23 <joanie> ^^^^^ PROCESS OBJECT EVENT object:state-changed:focused ^^^^^
23:53:25 <joanie> KEYBOARDEVENT: type=1 id=106 hw_code=44 modifiers=0 event_string=(j) keyval_name=(j) is_text=True timestamp=8151389 time=1414453229.305007 keyType=printable shouldEcho=False
23:56:18 <jcraig> through this user intent goal, one of the outcomes is that the AT can know 1) user intends to "move to next", and 2) the web app has consumed this intent and updated the view
23:57:29 <jcraig> cyns: higher level events about your data set increasing or decreasing
23:57:40 <jcraig> q+
23:58:13 <jcraig> ack Mon
23:58:28 <jcraig> ack me
23:58:28 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention CSS.customMedia.set() and to
23:58:35 <Ryladog> Scribe: Katie Haritos-Shea
23:58:38 <Zakim> -Monterey
23:58:39 <Zakim> WAI_Indie()11:00AM has ended
23:58:39 <Zakim> Attendees were Monterey, Andy_Heath, Ponderosa, JasonJGW
23:58:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-indie-ui-minutes.html MichaelC
23:59:35 <Ryladog> JC: I think that the need for table and list for data providers is very valid. We could have the tweet list subscribe to this general API for this thing as a data provider - but when you need to request more views it is this
23:59:50 <Ryladog> it could also provide higher performance
00:00:19 <Ryladog> So there is a need for that. I and other shave brought that up as a problem for webassp to solve
00:00:43 <Ryladog> I dont think you would need that to have thT DATA PROVIDERS
00:01:16 <Ryladog> trackbot, status?
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00:01:41 <Ryladog> CS I like the idea of the object as well
00:02:36 <Ryladog> JC: You can request that in the view, the DOM or the JS controller doesnt have that data. Maybe with a coming up soon while waiting for the server to deliver th content
00:03:04 <Ryladog> CS: Something similat to document on laod for the next chunk'
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00:03:40 <Ryladog> JC: insert and image elementt
00:04:09 <Ryladog> CS: I asked for a chunk, ny chunk is here ow. The scenario we started with is a 100 page document and I am on page 3 and I want to scroll down
00:04:21 <Ryladog> CS: You have to watch that aria changing thing
00:04:41 <Ryladog> JC: So this would be some kind of a notificaion that a web app could render
00:04:45 <Ryladog> CS; Yes
00:04:54 <Ryladog> JC: We called it screenchangeevent
00:05:04 <Ryladog> JC: post a notification
00:05:32 <Ryladog> CS; To ake it intentional - so that you are writing scrpts about what the user is trying to do
00:06:03 <Ryladog> JC: Maybe e could do this with out the webapps having to figure out all of the problems which couldtake years
00:07:13 <Ryladog> JC: Maybbe the way O introduced this is wrong. I see that there is alot of push for the editing events. I do not see that there was a lt of interest in the non-editing componnents
00:07:31 <cyns> https://rawgit.com/cyns/wapa/master/wapa.html
00:08:13 <Ryladog> JC: So maybe there could be an ARIA something to get move focus to a node that already has a pointer to the DOM ode, value change. You get 50 or more ev
00:08:29 <Ryladog> JC: We can do thT IN THE CONTEXT OF aria
00:14:55 <Ryladog> Discussion of Cynthia's WAPA.....
00:18:27 <Ryladog> JC: the complaints that I have heard from developers I do not want to load the Accessibility stuff until I know that there is a AT accessing it - for various reasons including performance
00:18:47 <Ryladog> CS: It is not a property that you check
00:19:02 <Ryladog> JC: But it is waiting for something to trigger
00:19:26 <Ryladog> RS: I would rather that it pass it is a property
00:19:39 <Ryladog> CS: Are we comfortable with provacy for that
00:20:20 <Ryladog> RS: But I could be a running an accessibility test tool
00:22:33 <Ryladog> CS: AT makes a property value request
00:23:19 <Ryladog> CS: what is the role of this object that is currently selected - if it doesnt catch...
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00:38:18 <Ryladog> JS: everyone agree that ARIA reflected
00:38:28 <jcraig> role and aria-* should be reflected attributes
00:38:47 <jcraig> accessibility notifications are also needed
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00:42:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Group agrees that WAI-ARIA reflected attributes are a good thing.
00:42:28 <Ryladog> CS: would like folks to review the Use Cases in the Web Accessibility Properties and Actions (WAPA) Explainer
00:42:41 <Ryladog> https://rawgit.com/cyns/wapa/master/wapa.html
00:43:55 <Ryladog> JS: Janina says Adjourned for today
00:45:50 <Ryladog> RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
00:50:29 <MichaelC> zakim, list attendees
00:50:29 <Zakim> sorry, MichaelC, I don't know what conference this is
00:50:59 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
00:50:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-indie-ui-minutes.html MichaelC
00:51:31 <MichaelC> present- Ponderosa
00:51:38 <MichaelC> present- Monterey
00:52:49 <MichaelC> present+ Janina, Cynthia, James, Rich, Michael, Katie, Takeshi, Joanie
00:53:03 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
00:53:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/27-indie-ui-minutes.html MichaelC
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