14:48:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
14:48:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/23-mobile-a11y-irc
14:48:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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14:48:20 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
14:48:20 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_MATF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
14:48:21 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:48:21 <trackbot> Date: 23 October 2014
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14:48:58 <KimPatch> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2014Oct/0010.html
14:51:39 <KimPatch_> KimPatch_ has joined #mobile-a11y
14:51:59 <KimPatch_> Agenda+  Q&A
14:52:00 <KimPatch_> Agenda+ Review G82, G85, G145, SCR37
14:52:02 <KimPatch_> Agenda+  G162
14:52:03 <KimPatch_> Agenda+  Technique Assignments
14:53:10 <KimPatch_> Regrets: Brent_Shiver
14:53:56 <KimPatch_>  chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin
14:54:26 <Zakim> WAI_MATF()11:00AM has now started
14:54:34 <Zakim> +Kim_Patch
14:57:43 <Zakim> +Kathy_Wahlbin
15:00:05 <Zakim> +Jeanne
15:02:30 <Jan> Jan has joined #mobile-a11y
15:03:19 <Zakim> +AWK
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15:03:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
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15:04:00 <Jan> zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
15:04:00 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
15:04:24 <Zakim> +jon_avila
15:07:26 <Kathy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/G162
15:07:38 <KimPatch> zakim, take up next
15:07:38 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Q&A" taken up [from KimPatch_]
15:07:48 <Zakim> + +1.408.425.aaaa
15:07:53 <KimPatch> zakim, take up next
15:07:53 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, KimPatch
15:08:05 <KimPatch> Topic: 82
15:08:46 <Kathy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/G162
15:09:02 <KimPatch> Topic:  G 162
15:09:46 <KimPatch> Jan: looks good except uses the word before and the point of the changes that we want to position the labels above
15:09:51 <jon_avila> +1
15:09:53 <AWK> suggestion: "smaller screens, positioning the labels above the field avoids horizontal scrolling and also increases the likelihood that a user using the zoom feature will be able to view both label and control."
15:09:58 <KimPatch> Kathy: good catch, I'll go back and change
15:11:05 <KimPatch> John: width?
15:11:07 <KimPatch> Andrew: ignore previous suggestion
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15:11:19 <KimPatch> Andrew: sentence before, instead of screen magnifier, zoom features would be more generic
15:12:02 <KimPatch> Kathy: other suggestions?
15:12:16 <KimPatch> Andrew: on smaller width screens
15:12:38 <KimPatch> Kathy: other changes?
15:14:27 <KimPatch> discussing description change
15:15:22 <KimPatch> Topic: M2
15:15:22 <Kathy> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/M2
15:15:53 <KimPatch> Kathy: this is an advisory under 2.1.1 and 1.4.4, about providing adequate text size
15:19:09 <jon_avila> The horizontal distance between labels and fields is best minimized to assist users with low vision and cognitive disabilities to make the association between the label and the field and to promote the label and field appearing in the view when content is zoomed.
15:19:22 <KimPatch> Mike: invention of swiping left and right was the  solution for this. That someone were to try to solve this for iOS you could actually create a larger text element because they would overlap something else.
15:19:47 <KimPatch> Kathy: will send this back – remove direction, focus on web content as far as touch sizes go
15:20:25 <KimPatch> Kathy: will ask for clarification any time we are referencing something we need the research.
15:20:36 <jon_avila> http://www.lukew.com/ff/entry.asp?1085
15:21:01 <KimPatch> Andrew: MIT study average human finger tip 8-10 millimeters
15:21:21 <KimPatch> Kathy: we can go back and ask Alan and more questions on that
15:21:46 <KimPatch> Mike: looking for the center of the touch area and trying to apply to the touch target
15:23:10 <KimPatch> Andrew: is this an accessibility issue
15:23:26 <KimPatch> Jan: such targets on a map – always zooming in and out and part of expected use
15:24:11 <KimPatch> Kathy: between an advisory and a sufficient technique this is an advisory technique so is this something that we should steer away from – what falls under an advisory technique versus what would be under WCAG at all
15:24:46 <jon_avila> q+
15:25:39 <KimPatch> Andrew: advisory is new. This one feels gray enough. I don't object to the idea of having an advisory technique that surround this. But I think if someone said applying the same criteria to other techniques if you don't do it you would fail a WCAG success criteria the answer would probably have to be no. I'm not sure what it would fail, because it impacts anyone using the content and not...
15:25:41 <KimPatch> ...just a disability. It fits well in Apple's guidelines – doesn't say that it's an accessibility issue, just that people need this
15:26:20 <KimPatch> Jon: advisory techniques not just things that may be supported the things that go beyond –  example G 162 it's not required to meet the success criteria but it can be mapped to a particular success criteria – it goes above and beyond
15:26:53 <KimPatch> Jon: would be difficult to test because devices have different size screens. Other option is if we made it a best practice we don't have to have tests
15:27:14 <KimPatch> Kathy: is there a best practice right now under WCAG
15:27:40 <KimPatch> Andrew: advisory techniques are best practices
15:28:07 <KimPatch> Kathy: we'd originally mapped it to principle 2.1.1 or 1.4.4, then principal to because it didn't really fit under any of them
15:28:27 <KimPatch> Jon: reading definition – it would be okay to have an advisory technique that wasn't testable
15:29:01 <KimPatch> Andrew: what would make it testable is if you said okay I'm using an iPhone 6+ and a nexus 7 – criteria would have to be ratcheted down to the point where you can say this is how it's done
15:29:48 <KimPatch> Jan: instead of specifying type of device, for the mobile thing we are going to a 5 inch screen versus  say a 1 inch watch screen which is also a type of mobile device. if you design it for the 5 inch screen is going to be too small on the 1 inch screen.
15:30:12 <KimPatch> Kathy: that gets to the organization as far as what's at supporting – they may say you're not supporting the watch, just this particular platform. We have to be careful there
15:31:28 <Kathy> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Technique_Development_Assignments
15:32:18 <jon_avila> Yes!
15:32:33 <KimPatch> Andrew: The big question that I have is how do we attach this to WCAG as an advisory technique – where in the guideline success criteria do we attach that. And I don't think there's anyone is going to disagree that it's something that we want to make sure  that we are communicating as a best practice. Our challenge is where it goes. I wanted to go against principal two. But as you dive into...
15:32:35 <KimPatch> ...the guideline level, it's not just about making it work with a keyboard  it's about making it work with your finger. This is highlighting a gap that we have in WCAG to as far as success criteria that allow us to attach to something like that.
15:32:55 <jon_avila> Andrew, thank you for joining these calls.
15:33:09 <KimPatch> Kathy: we have several like that – M 2, 4, 7 all fall into the same category that were talking about now
15:33:47 <KimPatch> Andrew: it makes sense to show this is the best practice in the mobile space
15:34:29 <KimPatch> Kathy: maybe we should put these on hold, have the WCAG group discuss them, figure out what direction. These are sticking points. I don't the implication of writing these was clear until we started writing.
15:34:51 <KimPatch> Kathy: some sort of guidance – where could those go and should they be under WCAG
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15:35:13 <KimPatch> Andrew: that would be good for the working group to talk about when we meet and talk about this at the face-to-face so we can have clarity
15:39:20 <KimPatch> Kathy: deadline coming up. If people can take preferably ones that are sufficient technique and get them done that would be appreciated
15:39:47 <jon_avila> The horizontal distance between labels and fields is best minimized to assist users with low vision and cognitive disabilities to make the association between the label and the field and to promote the label and field appearing in the view when content is zoomed.
15:39:48 <KimPatch> Jon: I updated G162 on the wiki
15:40:24 <Kathy> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/G162
15:40:50 <KimPatch> Topic: G 162
15:41:00 <KimPatch> Kathy: any objections to accepting as amended
15:41:48 <KimPatch>  Kathy: updating on wiki
15:41:49 <KimPatch> RESOLUTION: send G162 to working group
15:42:10 <KimPatch> Kathy: other comments? We will not have meeting next week because of TPAC
15:42:23 <KimPatch> Kathy: hoping people can work on techniques in those two weeks and have a lot ready for November 6
15:42:31 <Zakim> -jon_avila
15:42:32 <Zakim> -Jan
15:42:38 <Zakim> -Jeanne
15:43:39 <Zakim> - +1.408.425.aaaa
15:43:41 <Zakim> -AWK
15:44:22 <Zakim> -Kim_Patch
15:44:25 <Zakim> -Kathy_Wahlbin
15:44:26 <Zakim> WAI_MATF()11:00AM has ended
15:44:26 <Zakim> Attendees were Kim_Patch, Kathy_Wahlbin, Jeanne, AWK, Jan, jon_avila, +1.408.425.aaaa
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17:51:55 <KimPatch> rrsagent, make minutes
17:51:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/23-mobile-a11y-minutes.html KimPatch
17:52:54 <KimPatch> rrsagent, bye
17:52:54 <RRSAgent> I see no action items