IRC log of pointerevents on 2014-10-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:58:25 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-pointerevents-irc

14:58:31 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make log public

14:58:35 [Zakim]

+Doug_Schepers

14:59:03 [ArtB]

ScribeNick: ArtB

14:59:03 [ArtB]

Scribe: ArtB

14:59:03 [ArtB]

Meeting: Pointer Events WG Voice Conference

14:59:03 [ArtB]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014OctDec/0022.html

14:59:03 [ArtB]

Chair: ArtB

14:59:34 [patrick_h_lauke]

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14:59:57 [rbyers]

Regrets from me this week - sorry for the very short notice.

15:00:16 [ArtB]

Regrets: Rick_Byers, Sangwhan_Moon

15:00:32 [Zakim]

+ +44.797.663.aabb

15:01:03 [Zakim]

+ +1.717.578.aacc

15:01:39 [scott_gonzalez]

Zakim, aacc is me

15:01:39 [Zakim]

+scott_gonzalez; got it

15:01:43 [Zakim]

+ +1.770.402.aadd

15:01:50 [patrick_h_lauke]

zakim, aabb is me

15:01:50 [Zakim]

+patrick_h_lauke; got it

15:02:06 [jrossi2]

Zakim, aadd is me

15:02:06 [Zakim]

+jrossi2; got it

15:02:25 [Zakim]

+Matt_Brubeck

15:03:03 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

15:03:18 [ArtB]

Present: Art_Barstow, Cathy_Chan, Doug_Schepers, Patrick_Lauke, Scott_González, Jacob_Rossi, Matt_Brubeck, Asir_Vedamuthu

15:03:43 [ArtB]

Topic: Tweak and agree on agenda

15:03:49 [ArtB]

AB: yesterday I posted a Draft agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014OctDec/0022.html.

15:03:56 [ArtB]

... Since then PR-1287 was merged so I propose we drop that agenda item and add the two new PRs (PR-1299 and PR-1300) that were added after the draft agenda was posted

15:04:09 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft.a]

15:04:13 [Zakim]

-jrossi2

15:04:19 [ArtB]

AB: any objections?

15:04:40 [jrossi2]

Zakim, Microsoft.a is jrossi

15:04:40 [Zakim]

+jrossi; got it

15:04:40 [ArtB]

[ None ]

15:04:44 [ArtB]

AB: any other change requests?

15:04:52 [ArtB]

DS: let's talk TPAC during AoB

15:04:56 [ArtB]

AB: sounds good

15:05:05 [ArtB]

Topic: PR-1299 and PR-1300

15:05:11 [ArtB]

AB: Jacob submitted PR-1299 https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1287 and PR-1300 https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1287yesterday.

15:05:17 [ArtB]

... Jacob, what's up with these PRs?

15:05:47 [mbrubeck]

s/1287/1299/

15:05:57 [mbrubeck]

s/1287yesterday/1300/

15:06:07 [ArtB]

JR: 1299 https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1287

15:06:10 [asir]

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15:06:16 [ArtB]

… 1300 https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1287

15:06:42 [ArtB]

… not good for testing, especially scrolling

15:06:49 [ArtB]

… these make the tests more reliable

15:06:59 [ArtB]

… 1300 just updates 1 test file

15:07:50 [ArtB]

… this will also help with the reliability

15:08:04 [ArtB]

… I will also fix any -manual issues

15:08:22 [jrossi]

https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1299

15:08:23 [ArtB]

… that is, I'll just update the names since that doesn't affect the test

15:08:26 [jrossi]

https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1300

15:08:49 [ArtB]

AB: so we need some to review these PRs

15:08:59 [ArtB]

… any volunteers?

15:09:14 [ArtB]

MB: I can review them

15:09:21 [ArtB]

… would be happy to have help

15:09:28 [ArtB]

CC: I can help

15:09:42 [ArtB]

JR: probably only need 2 people for 1299 and just one for 1300

15:10:04 [ArtB]

AB: how will you split this up Matt and Cathy?

15:10:10 [ArtB]

CC: will figure it out offline

15:10:35 [ArtB]

ACTION: Matt work with Cathy to review PRs 1299 and 1300

15:10:35 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-137 - Work with cathy to review prs 1299 and 1300 [on Matt Brubeck - due 2014-10-28].

15:10:42 [ArtB]

AB: thanks Matt and Cathy

15:11:07 [ArtB]

AB: if you review leads to a +1, then please go ahead and merge the PRs

15:11:21 [ArtB]

Topic: Bug-26888 - Add "pointerleave" to "9.1 The touch-action CSS property"

15:11:27 [ArtB]

AB: we discussed this bug previously and Jacob submitted a patch yesterday https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/rev/0dc3e51284e4.

15:11:38 [ArtB]

... Any comments on the patch?

15:11:45 [patrick_h_lauke]

LGTM

15:12:00 [ArtB]

AB: I also would say LGTM

15:12:26 [ArtB]

… if people need more time, that's fine

15:12:50 [ArtB]

JR: the last time we talked about this there was some speculation this issue could be in other parts of the spec

15:13:00 [ArtB]

… I searched and did not find any other occurences

15:13:05 [Zakim]

- +1.857.300.aaaa

15:13:22 [Zakim]

+ +1.857.300.aaee

15:13:48 [ArtB]

AB: if no one needs more time, then let's record a Resolution that we agree with Jacob's proposal

15:13:59 [ArtB]

RESOLUTION: group agrees with Jacob's patch for Bug-26888

15:14:10 [ArtB]

Topic: Testing and Interop

15:14:17 [ArtB]

AB: before we can start formal interop testing, we'll need to get closure on PR-1299 and PR-1300. If we assume those PRs will be ok, then we have a few Q and issues to discuss.

15:14:44 [ArtB]

AB: one item is who is going to run the tests http://w3c-test.org/pointerevents/ on various implementations?

15:14:50 [ArtB]

... can we get commitments to run the tests on IE and FFMetro?

15:15:11 [ArtB]

JR: I can run the IE tests

15:15:44 [ArtB]

… re constructor stuff, we have an internal build

15:15:55 [ArtB]

MB: I or someone else can run the tests on FF Metro

15:16:25 [ArtB]

ACTION: Jacob run the PE tests on IE after all open PRs are resolved

15:16:26 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-138 - Run the pe tests on ie after all open prs are resolved [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-10-28].

15:16:51 [ArtB]

ACTION: Matt run the PE tests on FF Metro after all open PRs are resolved

15:16:51 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-139 - Run the pe tests on ff metro after all open prs are resolved [on Matt Brubeck - due 2014-10-28].

15:17:02 [ArtB]

AB: another related issue is whether or not to use the w-p-t runner http://w3c-test.org/tools/runner/index.html to run the tests.

15:17:15 [ArtB]

... Given most tests are manual, it's not clear that using the runner will be the most efficient way to run the tests but it does have a good benefit of optionally creating a JSON file of the results and there is a tool to merge results files to create an Interop/Implementation Report.

15:17:46 [ArtB]

... For an example, see the IndexedDB test result repo https://github.com/w3c/test-results/tree/gh-pages/IndexedDB. Note the 4 *.json files of test results for 4 different implementations.

15:18:11 [ArtB]

... I haven't used the tool to merge the results but I'm sure PLH/Robin/JGraham/Ms2ger or other good folks in the W3C's #testing channel can help us. (For some additional info see https://www.npmjs.org/package/wptreport.)

15:18:41 [ArtB]

… still a bit bleeding edge

15:18:55 [ArtB]

MB: has anyone used runner with the PE tests?

15:19:14 [Zakim]

-Matt_Brubeck

15:19:18 [ArtB]

JR: for manual tests, can those tests be verified?

15:19:27 [ArtB]

AB: yes, I do believe that is the way it works

15:19:45 [Zakim]

+Matt_Brubeck

15:19:46 [ArtB]

… but I haven't tried it

15:20:16 [ArtB]

JR: seems to be working

15:20:50 [ArtB]

AB: can you Matt try it now?

15:20:55 [ArtB]

MB: no not now

15:21:07 [ArtB]

… but you can assign me an action and I'll try it

15:21:46 [ArtB]

ACTION: matt try using w-p-t runner to run the PE tests on FF Metro and report the results to the group

15:21:46 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-140 - Try using w-p-t runner to run the pe tests on ff metro and report the results to the group [on Matt Brubeck - due 2014-10-28].

15:22:05 [ArtB]

JR: it uses Window.open

15:22:13 [ArtB]

… not sure if FFMetro supports that

15:22:35 [ArtB]

MB: there could be some probs there; I'll need to check

15:23:07 [ArtB]

AB: we have some experimenting to do before we can agree or not on using runner

15:23:21 [ArtB]

… but we'll try to use it if/when possible

15:23:53 [ArtB]

AV: so is the default to just do manual testing?

15:24:03 [ArtB]

AB: yes, that seems to be the case

15:25:07 [ArtB]

JR: if runner doesn't work, then can run runner just to get the JSON file and then directly update the file with the data from running the tests manually

15:25:15 [ArtB]

AB: that makes sense to me

15:25:23 [ArtB]

MB: yes agree

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15:26:47 [ArtB]

DS: do you foresee any probs with us using runner test results for our Impl Report?

15:26:56 [ArtB]

s/DS: do you/AB: do you/

15:27:03 [ArtB]

DS: I'll check with PLH

15:28:00 [jrossi]

example output from merging JSON: https://w3c.github.io/test-results/IndexedDB/all.html

15:28:42 [Zakim]

- +1.857.300.aaee

15:28:51 [ArtB]

ACTION: Doug check with Philippe if the runner test reporting mechanism is OK for CR

15:28:51 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-141 - Check with philippe if the runner test reporting mechanism is ok for cr [on Doug Schepers - due 2014-10-28].

15:28:57 [ArtB]

AB: here's an example http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-test-infra/2014OctDec/0017.html

15:29:00 [Zakim]

+ +1.857.300.aaff

15:29:25 [ArtB]

… http://w3c.github.io/test-results/eventsource/all.html

15:30:19 [ArtB]

AB: so my Q to Doug, is if something like this all.html file is acceptable

15:30:26 [ArtB]

DS: yes, let me check with PLH

15:31:26 [ArtB]

AB: any other Qs about testing?

15:31:48 [ArtB]

AV: what is the realtionship between the TA table and the Impl Report?

15:32:02 [ArtB]

AB: there is no requirement to have a linkage

15:32:26 [ArtB]

… the TA doc should be part of the test suite

15:32:38 [ArtB]

AV: yes, it is difficult to keep it in sync

15:33:00 [ArtB]

… what is the key metric for the report?

15:33:22 [ArtB]

JR: the runner is test cases (more granualr than test file)

15:33:39 [ArtB]

AV: so metric is number of tests passed?

15:33:57 [ArtB]

JR: the runner tool lists test cases

15:34:16 [ArtB]

… we should consider the TA doc as superceded by the test report

15:34:27 [ArtB]

… don't think we need to do any additional work on the TA doc

15:34:47 [ArtB]

AV: so the wiki is no longer important once we have the test report

15:35:36 [ArtB]

AB: I see the TA doc as a good tool with getting us organized but its not important once we have detailed test results

15:35:49 [ArtB]

AV: then I think the TA doc should be documented as such

15:36:39 [ArtB]

ACTION: Art work with Asir on a bold heading on the TA doc that says it is frozen and no longer being worked on

15:36:39 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-142 - Work with asir on a bold heading on the ta doc that says it is frozen and no longer being worked on [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-10-28].

15:37:02 [ArtB]

AB: anything else on testing for today?

15:37:05 [ArtB]

[ None ]

15:37:12 [ArtB]

Topic: "click" in the example event sequences in 11.2 Mapping for devices that do not support hover

15:37:29 [ArtB]

AB: Patrick started this thread on October 17; http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014OctDec/0020.html. Jacob replied yesterday http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014OctDec/0025.html.

15:37:38 [patrick_h_lauke]

(famous for my short and to the point email subjects...)

15:37:46 [ArtB]

AB: it's not clear if the spec needs to change or not.

15:38:00 [ArtB]

JR: I don't think we need to change the spec

15:38:11 [ArtB]

… it's a bug in IE

15:38:19 [patrick_h_lauke]

"The relative ordering of these high-level events (click, contextmenu, focus, blur, etc.) with pointer events is undefined and varies between user agents."

15:38:30 [ArtB]

PL: for developers, could use some clarification

15:39:25 [patrick_h_lauke]

https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEvents.html#compatibility-mapping-with-mouse-events

15:39:26 [ArtB]

… but I'm not adamant; could leave it as is too

15:39:47 [patrick_h_lauke]

https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEvents.html#mapping-for-devices-that-do-not-support-hover

15:39:58 [ArtB]

PL: see 2nd Note in section 11.1

15:40:26 [patrick_h_lauke]

so wondering if worth adding a small reminder of the note from 11. to the note in 11.1

15:41:13 [ArtB]

JR: I don't want to document an IE bug

15:41:24 [ArtB]

… think another note is overkill

15:42:00 [ArtB]

… we will fix this so don't want to mention it

15:42:35 [ArtB]

… If I put a note in it could imply current behavior is intended

15:43:48 [ArtB]

PL: if we decide it would be overkill, then that's ok

15:44:06 [patrick_h_lauke]

happy to leave it

15:44:46 [ArtB]

AB: if anyone feels real strong, please speak up

15:44:54 [patrick_h_lauke]

as the "typically produce" wording a the start of the informative note gives us enough leeway anyway

15:45:28 [ArtB]

RESOLUTION: re "click" in the example … we agree to leave the spec as is

15:45:33 [patrick_h_lauke]

+1

15:45:41 [ArtB]

Topic: AoB

15:45:48 [ArtB]

AB: I'll be at TPAC next week so no call on Oct 28. I hope to see some of you there.

15:46:00 [ArtB]

AB: Rick organized a "Scroll linked effects - demos and brainstorming" ad hoc meeting @ TPAC on Tuesday Oct 28 11:00-12:00 https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2014/ad-hoc-meetings#Scroll_linked_effects_-_demos_and_brainstorming. This could be interesting to some of you.

15:46:03 [jrossi]

https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2014/ad-hoc-meetings#Scroll_linked_effects_-_demos_and_brainstorming

15:46:12 [patrick_h_lauke]

any chance to remotely connect?

15:46:54 [ArtB]

AB: my understanding is that support for remote participation in "ad hoc meetings" is ad hoc

15:47:04 [ArtB]

… that is, the answer is "it depends"

15:47:29 [patrick_h_lauke]

i'll check closer to the time with rick, no worries

15:48:45 [ArtB]

ACTION: barstow determine if Rick's scrolling ad hoc meeting will facilitate remote participation and report that on p-pointer-events

15:48:45 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-143 - Determine if rick's scrolling ad hoc meeting will facilitate remote participation and report that on p-pointer-events [on Arthur Barstow - due 2014-10-28].

15:48:47 [asir]

I like to listen in

15:48:48 [jrossi]

IRC channel: #tpacscroll

15:49:35 [patrick_h_lauke]

borrow a google glass and film/stream it live ;)

15:49:54 [ArtB]

DS: for those of us that are going to be at TPAC, perhaps we should have an informal chat session

15:50:04 [ArtB]

… for topics like Touch Events

15:50:13 [ArtB]

… could try to get Apple involved

15:50:41 [ArtB]

… nothing formal but since we're all there, perhaps we should try to get together

15:50:48 [ArtB]

JR: yes agree

15:51:06 [ArtB]

… CSSWG is taking about relevant events

15:51:19 [ArtB]

… I'll be there M+Tu+W

15:51:19 [patrick_h_lauke]

as side note, ICYMI https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=137069

15:51:32 [ArtB]

s/relevant events/snappoint events/

15:52:20 [ArtB]

DS: I'd like to participate in the snappoint talk so please let me know if/when that happens

15:52:26 [ArtB]

AB: anything else?

15:52:34 [ArtB]

AB: thanks all; meeting adjourned.

15:52:50 [patrick_h_lauke]

fedex the champagne over...

15:52:53 [patrick_h_lauke]

ah...foiled

15:53:04 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, make minutes

15:53:04 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB

15:53:10 [Zakim]

- +1.857.300.aaff

15:53:11 [Zakim]

-Doug_Schepers

15:53:11 [Zakim]

-patrick_h_lauke

15:53:12 [Zakim]

-jrossi

15:53:17 [Zakim]

-scott_gonzalez

15:53:24 [Zakim]

-Matt_Brubeck

15:53:28 [patrick_h_lauke]

patrick_h_lauke has left #pointerevents

15:54:55 [Zakim]

-[Microsoft]

15:54:56 [Zakim]

RWC_PEWG()11:00AM has ended

15:54:56 [Zakim]

Attendees were +1.857.300.aaaa, Doug_Schepers, +44.797.663.aabb, +1.717.578.aacc, scott_gonzalez, +1.770.402.aadd, patrick_h_lauke, jrossi2, Matt_Brubeck, [Microsoft], jrossi,

15:54:56 [Zakim]

... +1.857.300.aaee, +1.857.300.aaff

16:03:44 [rbyers]

patrick_h_lauke / shepazu: CSSWG folks want to move that ad-hoc scrolling meeting into the formal part of the CSS WG meeting: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Oct/0283.html

16:03:49 [rbyers]

Not sure what that means for remote participation

16:03:58 [rbyers]

I haven't seen a schedule for the CSSWG meeting yet

16:16:25 [smaug]

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16:30:16 [smaug]

crap, I so didn't see the agenda for today

16:30:29 [smaug]

(and would have sent regrets )

16:38:42 [ArtB]

Regrets+ Olli_Pettay

16:38:51 [ArtB]

RRSAGent, make minutes

16:38:51 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB

16:39:32 [ArtB]

zakim, bye

16:39:32 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #pointerevents

16:58:13 [ArtB]

RRSAgent, bye

16:58:13 [RRSAgent]

I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-pointerevents-actions.rdf :

16:58:13 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Matt work with Cathy to review PRs 1299 and 1300 [1]

16:58:13 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-pointerevents-irc#T15-10-35

16:58:13 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jacob run the PE tests on IE after all open PRs are resolved [2]

16:58:13 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-pointerevents-irc#T15-16-25

16:58:13 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Matt run the PE tests on FF Metro after all open PRs are resolved [3]

16:58:13 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-pointerevents-irc#T15-16-51

16:58:13 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: matt try using w-p-t runner to run the PE tests on FF Metro and report the results to the group [4]

16:58:13 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-pointerevents-irc#T15-21-46

16:58:13 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Doug check with Philippe if the runner test reporting mechanism is OK for CR [5]

16:58:13 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-pointerevents-irc#T15-28-51

16:58:13 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Art work with Asir on a bold heading on the TA doc that says it is frozen and no longer being worked on [6]

16:58:13 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-pointerevents-irc#T15-36-39

16:58:13 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: barstow determine if Rick's scrolling ad hoc meeting will facilitate remote participation and report that on p-pointer-events [7]

16:58:13 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-pointerevents-irc#T15-48-45

16:58:24 [ArtB]

ArtB has changed the topic to: Pointer Events Working Group