18:53:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:53:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-aapi-irc
18:53:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:53:58 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:54:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:54:00 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
18:54:01 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:54:01 <trackbot> Date: 21 October 2014
18:54:52 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
18:54:59 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
18:55:09 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:55:09 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
18:55:16 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:55:16 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:55:27 <clown> chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:55:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-aapi-minutes.html clown
18:56:30 <clown> agenda: this
18:56:37 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-980: (David) Define mappings for managed aria related states with reference to section 5.5, item 1.
18:56:44 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1185: (Cynthia) Look into UIA Express and UIA mappings for role=heading to check for heading paragraph style.
18:56:50 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1311: (Joseph) Clarify that presentation role should preserve separation of nodes within tables/lists.
18:56:57 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1322: (Jon) Make some examples for aria-hidden="false" (including a hidden live region).
18:57:08 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1408: (Joseph) AAPI section on differences among platforms.
18:57:15 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1444/1445: (Joanie, Cynthia) Investigate ideal mapping for role presentation in tables and lists.
18:57:29 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1457: (Cynthia) Ask Michael to create the 1.1 testharness.
18:57:36 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-542: (All) Use of fall back text attribute for CSS image content rules.
18:57:43 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1492/ISSUE-1492: (David) Propose a solution for widgets re: aria-invalid and its token values.
18:57:54 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1515/ISSUE-678: (All) Discuss proper mapping of group role at Mon call.
18:57:59 <clown> agenda+ Processing issues/actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
18:58:05 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:58:11 <davidb> davidb has joined #aapi
18:59:14 <Zakim> + +1.416.848.aaaa
18:59:25 <davidb> Zakim, 1.416.848.aaaa is David_Bolter
18:59:25 <Zakim> sorry, davidb, I do not recognize a party named '1.416.848.aaaa'
18:59:32 <davidb> Zakim, aaaa is David_Bolter
18:59:32 <Zakim> +David_Bolter; got it
18:59:33 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
18:59:43 <joanie> Zakim, I am Joanmarie_Diggs
18:59:43 <Zakim> ok, joanie, I now associate you with Joanmarie_Diggs
19:01:58 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
19:02:39 <joanie> scribe: Joanmarie_Diggs
19:02:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
19:02:50 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:03:03 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:03:15 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
19:03:15 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
19:06:20 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
19:06:51 <joanie> Zakim, +[Microsoft] is Cynthia_Shelly
19:06:51 <Zakim> sorry, joanie, I do not recognize a party named '+[Microsoft]'
19:07:15 <clown> https://github.com/w3c/aria
19:07:23 <joanie> Zakim, Microsoft is Cynthia_Shelly
19:07:23 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly; got it
19:10:28 <clown> git pull —rebase
19:10:59 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:10:59 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-980: (David) Define mappings for managed aria related states with reference to section 5.5, item 1." taken up [from clown]
19:11:56 <clown> action-980?
19:11:56 <trackbot> action-980 -- David Bolter to Define mappings for managed aria related states: aria-setsize, aria-posinset, aria-level, focused, focusable with reference to section 5.5 bullet 1 of the UAIG. -- due 2014-09-23 -- OPEN
19:11:56 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/980
19:12:21 <joanie> JS: This came up as due again, action-980. It's David's action. I looked at it to remind myself what it was.
19:12:34 <clown> "issue: List managed states and define mappings for managed states".
19:12:47 <joanie> JS: I found that the action was created back in March 2012 at a face-to-face. In those minutes the above quote was found.
19:13:22 <joanie> RS: I remember that. It was because this was going to be a core specification for HTML, SVG, etc. and these things need to be there as well.
19:13:44 <joanie> DB: Is making this core going to make everything more heavy-weight?
19:14:31 <joanie> RS: I don't know if there's other things we need to consider, but managing this stuff for HTML5, SVG, etc. is important. And we don't want to duplicate it.
19:14:42 <joanie> RS: The HTML and SVG mapping should be rather small.
19:14:56 <joanie> DB: I don't know what the "etc." is at the end of the list of sample states.
19:15:00 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
19:15:15 <joanie> DB: Perhaps we can remove the "etc." for now?
19:16:06 <joanie> DB: We have a definition in the guide for managed states.
19:16:16 <joanie> JS: And in that guide it mentions selection as one of the managed states.
19:16:28 <joanie> DB: This issue could probably become large-ish.
19:16:55 <joanie> DB: In the sense that all the prose would not go into this bullet.
19:17:16 <joanie> JS: Agreed, the mapping is not going to go into this bullet point. That might become a second section.
19:18:09 <joanie> JS: (Reading from document). This sounds like states which happen independent of ARIA.
19:20:00 <joanie> DB: This bullet seems to assume that HTML sans ARIA, user agents figure out what to expose. And we're calling that managed states.
19:20:23 <joanie> DB: And I think what's being said is that we also need to mention this / explain this for ARIA.
19:21:28 <joanie> DB: I think that managed states would belong in HTML or somewhere. Then in ARIA we'd link back to that doc and mention any ARIA-specific needs.
19:21:47 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#dfn-managed-state
19:22:06 <joanie> JS: The above is the definition for managed states.
19:23:46 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#mapping_state-property
19:25:28 <davidb> (group takes a moment to complain about visibility state mess)
19:26:04 <joanie> (Discussion about platforms at their states, e.g. VISIBLE, etc.)
19:26:41 <joanie> CS: In UIA there are also equivalents, but I'd have to look up their exact names.
19:27:02 <joanie> JS: The trick is finding the right words, avoiding platform-specific names.
19:27:09 <joanie> CS: We can use prose to describe them.
19:27:21 <joanie> DB: First step might be to list all the states we think are managed.
19:27:39 <joanie> DB: Then add links to the platform-specific accessibility APIs.
19:28:18 <joanie> DB: And then determine where exactly to put it.
19:28:40 <joanie> JS: My inclination is to put that paragraph right here (in the core aam).
19:29:17 <joanie> JS: I agree with Cynthia that it has to indicate we're taking about accessibility API states without using any platform's specific terminology.
19:29:29 <joanie> JD: +1 to what Joseph and Cynthia said.
19:29:43 <joanie> JS: So in summary, step 1 is to list what we think those states are.
19:29:52 <joanie> DB: I can be the driver if you'd like.
19:31:09 <joanie> RS: So this is going into core?
19:31:20 <joanie> JS: David suggested it might need to go somewhere else.
19:31:28 <joanie> DB: My concern is capturing it first.
19:31:34 <joanie> RS: We'll need this for SVG somehow.
19:33:40 <clown> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/AT-APIs/MSAA/States
19:33:50 <joanie> JS: Conclusion, David will drive it, starting with the first step (listing the states).
19:36:03 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:36:53 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
19:37:03 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:37:03 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
19:37:12 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:37:12 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:38:15 <joanie> RS: We were trying to synchronize ARIA 1.1 with HTML 5 which was going to be 2016. But they changed that date.
19:38:30 <joanie> RS: What didn't get implemented will be added in a 5.1.
19:38:50 <joanie> RS: Now I'm not sure how we're going to synchronize this. I have been aiming for 2016, but earlier if possible.
19:39:10 <joanie> RS: Earlier would mean less in 1.1 and postponing some things for ARIA 2.0.
19:39:29 <joanie> DB: For our purposes, I'd like to target January 27th for getting this action done.
19:39:58 <joanie> RS: That's fine as it only impacts the browsers directly, and will probably be documenting of what is already being done by them.
19:40:07 <joanie> RS: This will be helpful for SVG though.
19:41:19 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:41:19 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-1185: (Cynthia) Look into UIA Express and UIA mappings for role=heading to check for heading paragraph style." taken up [from clown]
19:42:16 <clown> action-1185?
19:42:16 <trackbot> action-1185 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Look into UIA Express and UIA mappings for role=heading to check for heading paragraph style. -- due 2014-09-09 -- OPEN
19:42:16 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1185
19:42:28 <joanie> JS: This is now my action, Cynthia did the work. But I have questions for her.
19:42:42 <joanie> JS: (Reads from text)
19:42:56 <joanie> JS: So you want me to stick in the mapping for UIA the actual code?
19:43:18 <joanie> CS: You can use the identifier. The tool I have shows the number.
19:43:37 <bgaraventa1979> +q
19:44:01 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-heading
19:44:16 <joanie> JS: (Quotes from the above)
19:45:10 <joanie> JS states his understanding of the change, Cynthia confirms.
19:45:21 <joanie> CS: The style pattern has the ID.
19:45:27 <joanie> JS: I will try to do this by next week.
19:45:39 <joanie> BG: Is aria-level required?
19:45:53 <joanie> ack bgaraventa1979
19:46:09 <joanie> JS: aria-level is supported but not required
19:46:31 <joanie> BG: Should aria-level should be a MUST for role="heading"
19:46:53 <joanie> JD: Should it?
19:46:57 <joanie> BG: I'd assume so.
19:47:23 <joanie> BG: This came up at a discussion earlier this year. Steve Faulkner pointed out that it wasn't required.
19:47:49 <joanie> CS: Do you have any recollection, Rich, of why heading doesn't have a required level?
19:48:02 <joanie> RS: That really doesn't make sense.
19:48:12 <joanie> DB: Is it perhaps implicit based on nesting?
19:48:19 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#heading
19:48:28 <joanie> RS: I would make that an issue (a spec issue).
19:48:45 <joanie> RS: People will do it anyway, but I think it should be required.
19:49:07 <joanie> DB: It wouldn't surprise me if Gecko calculates it if the level is not specified.
19:49:36 <joanie> RS: One of the problems with headings in general is that it's not a section. It just sits out there. So calculating it is difficult.
19:49:59 <joanie> RS: Would you prefer it be explicit or calculated?
19:50:09 <joanie> JS: Explicit makes it a MUST.
19:50:40 <joanie> DB: I wouldn't want to discourage people from using heading.
19:51:39 <joanie> JS: aria-level doesn't even have a default value.
19:51:49 <joanie> JS and DB: I don't think we have tests for this.
19:52:12 <joanie> DB: I'll ask Alex Surkov.
19:52:51 <joanie> JS: This doesn't change my edit because the actual mapping says that the level comes from the aria-level attribute.
19:53:03 <joanie> JS: Bryan, would you like to raise an issue with the spec?
19:53:13 <joanie> BG: I'll do so.
19:55:43 <joanie> DB: Alex's response: If I recall correctly we don't calculate it. I'm not sure why it should be required. Some default value can be provided.
19:56:08 <davidb> DB: tend to agree
19:56:14 <joanie> CS: Having a default as a repair mechanism probably makes sense. But I think it should be required.
19:56:21 <clown> davidb, can you ask alex what the default value is?
19:56:34 <joanie> CS: What would the default be? 1? You can only have one of those.
19:56:37 <bgaraventa1979> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2014JulSep/0040.html
19:57:07 <joanie> BG: The above is the link to the thread I was refering to earlier.
19:58:13 <davidb> clown, alex says '1'
19:58:29 <clown> davidb, thank alex for that.
20:00:35 <Zakim> -David_Bolter
20:00:48 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
20:00:50 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
20:03:02 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop
20:07:59 <joanie> Present: Cynthia_Shelly, David_Bolter, Bryan_Garaventa, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Richard_Schwerdtfeger
20:08:05 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:08:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/21-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:08:29 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop