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15:06:36 <fsasaki> meeting: its ig
15:06:50 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014Oct/0032.html
15:06:55 <camille> camille has joined #i18nits
15:07:33 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014Oct/0032.html
15:07:37 <fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki
15:07:41 <fsasaki> topic: action items
15:08:00 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/track/actions/open
15:08:31 <fsasaki> http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/track/actions/open?sort=due
15:08:58 <fsasaki> topic: XLIFF 2.0 mapping
15:09:08 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014Oct/0006.html
15:09:21 <fsasaki> "ITS scope with sm/em"
15:09:47 <fsasaki> yves: issue is: in XLIFF you can markup things with starting and ending empty elements
15:09:51 <fsasaki> .. these are used as marker
15:10:05 <fsasaki> .. content is not XML well formed content but between related elements
15:10:15 <fsasaki> .. they are related through semantics, not syntax
15:10:21 <fsasaki> .. they can be converted to mrk
15:10:33 <fsasaki> .. issue is: in ITS we cannot describe that relation
15:10:49 <fsasaki> .. e.g. if "sm" has ITS information, the information woud apply to empty content
15:11:00 <fsasaki> .. Fredrik and Felix provided ways to solve the problem
15:11:13 <fsasaki> .. by reducing numbers of sm and em,
15:11:21 <fsasaki> .. but there would still be some cases
15:11:30 <fsasaki> .. in case in which things are overlaped
15:11:35 <fsasaki> .. this cannot resolved with ITS
15:11:46 <fsasaki> .. this is similar to NIF were we can have overlap as well
15:11:55 <fsasaki> .. so ITS cannot handle everything
15:12:07 <fsasaki> .. we can migate 98% of the case with transformation
15:12:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/20-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
15:12:43 <fsasaki> david: fundamental issue
15:12:57 <fsasaki> .. richard / felix sometimes say that ITS is an abstract set of data categories
15:13:05 <fsasaki> .. so far tech. has only been defined for XML and HTML
15:13:12 <fsasaki> .. these have the limitations that Yves described
15:13:42 <fsasaki> .. I agree that you can define simplification to reduce the number of spans that will be marked with empty markers, in XLIFF or other formats
15:13:57 <fsasaki> .. this does not solve the fundamental issue
15:14:14 <fsasaki> .. you can clash with structural XLIFF markup and so on
15:14:22 <fsasaki> .. not quite sure what the value of the exercise is
15:14:34 <fsasaki> .. of trying to reduce the number of sm / em marked spans
15:15:00 <fsasaki> .. if you start in a perfect value html / xml you can add ITS value
15:15:19 <fsasaki> .. you can't end up with spans that won't be possible to be marked in the right way
15:15:28 <fsasaki> .. don't think that there is a solution
15:15:37 <fsasaki> .. you cannot enforce wellformed spans
15:15:47 <fsasaki> .. so all external ITS processors will be at loss
15:16:19 <fsasaki> yves: that type of issue applies only for em / sm that you cannot split into separate mrks
15:16:32 <fsasaki> .. e.g. for "translate" you can split things up in several mrks
15:16:56 <fsasaki> .. the issue is with "terminology" or "text analysis" where you cannot split up things
15:18:26 <fsasaki> david: if the wellformed format has the requirements then we can convert that
15:19:14 <fsasaki> yves: this is a problem, not a major problem. it is a problem on the ITS representaiton. shoudl not stop us for using sm / em
15:19:18 <fsasaki> .. not a showstopper for the mapping
15:19:20 <fsasaki> david: agre
15:19:30 <fsasaki> .. it is a limitatino what a generic ITS processor can do
15:19:42 <fsasaki> .. another reason for having separate XLIFF namespaces
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15:21:09 <fsasaki> christian: a few points: first, general issue of XML contraints
15:21:34 <fsasaki> present: christian, yves, david, renat, felix
15:21:50 <fsasaki> .. what is the viewpoint of researchers on the overlap issue?
15:21:58 <fsasaki> .. second, we are looking at xliff
15:22:25 <fsasaki> .. the observation we have may have some impact on the future version of xliff
15:22:46 <fsasaki> .. maybe we find that sm / em is not the only approach  - again an insight based on overlap research
15:23:01 <fsasaki> .. third - being able to cover 98%, like yves said
15:23:27 <fsasaki> .. we could also say: for certain flavours of XLIFF you are ok, for others you have certain constraints
15:23:34 <fsasaki> .. that may call for a special variant of xliff
15:23:55 <fsasaki> .. e.g. variant X of xliff: OK, variant Y: may have issues
15:25:05 <fsasaki> renat: want to add some comments on overlap aspect
15:25:14 <fsasaki> .. in xliff 2.0 there will be several modules
15:25:21 <fsasaki> .. e.g. a specific module for ITS metadata
15:25:24 <fsasaki> .. is that so?
15:25:54 <fsasaki> .. then we could resolve the scenario if we split overlapping pieces of metadata between different instances of target text
15:26:22 <fsasaki> david: useful to look at theoretical options from TEI
15:26:39 <fsasaki> [see TEI options here http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/NH.html ]
15:26:49 <fsasaki> david: multiple instances was used in 1.2
15:26:54 <fsasaki> .. it was abandoned in XLIFF 2.0
15:27:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/20-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
15:27:20 <fsasaki> .. standoff markup is another option
15:27:53 <fsasaki> .. but also has issues
15:28:01 <fsasaki> .. agree with Yves, there is no problem on the XLIFF side
15:28:19 <fsasaki> .. the problem occurs during conversion to a format that has wellformedness requirements
15:28:33 <fsasaki> .. a comment on what christian said about XLIFF flavours:
15:28:51 <fsasaki> .. wellformed spans are interconvertable with non-wellformed spans
15:28:59 <fsasaki> .. that is true for annotation and quote markers
15:29:57 <fsasaki> .. there is a way to reduce the number of non wellformed spans
15:30:34 <fsasaki> .. you could define types of content that works with the reduction and overs that does not
15:30:55 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014Oct/0033.html
15:32:40 <fsasaki> felix: next step would be to do some tests with the conversion, see yves' mail
15:33:14 <fsasaki> action: felix to work on overlap example and to do conversion
15:33:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-53 - Work on overlap example and to do conversion [on Felix Sasaki - due 2014-10-27].
15:33:17 <fsasaki> yves: things to be done:
15:33:24 <fsasaki> .. coming up wtih rules for processing the mapping
15:33:29 <fsasaki> .. using also an ITS processor
15:33:40 <fsasaki> .. output would be similar to the test output we generate
15:33:54 <fsasaki> .. but we need also to come up to process the file with an XLIFF processor
15:34:03 <fsasaki> .. but I don't have a format for that
15:34:11 <fsasaki> topic: testing output
15:34:26 <fsasaki> https://www.w3.org/International/its/wiki/XLIFF_2.0_Mapping#General_implementation_and_testing_considerations
15:35:34 <fsasaki> yves: for XLIFF output, testing:
15:35:45 <fsasaki> .. every single element for which we can apply ITS
15:35:49 <fsasaki> .. all ements have IDs
15:35:59 <fsasaki> .. so we can generate an XLIFF location of the node
15:36:23 <fsasaki> .. instead of using XPath, using the XLIFF IDs
15:36:34 <fsasaki> .. most of the xliff processors should be able to process that
15:37:03 <fsasaki> felix: would one need to take the scope of the ID into account?
15:37:05 <fsasaki> yves: good point
15:37:18 <fsasaki> .. technically you are testing only if the value of the ITS information is correct
15:37:27 <fsasaki> .. applying the scope is only an XLIFF problem
15:37:47 <fsasaki> .. the tests for the ITS module don't need to test the scope
15:38:13 <fsasaki> david: still the same issue
15:38:19 <fsasaki> .. the scope of the IDs can be non-wellformed
15:38:51 <fsasaki> action: yves to try to come up with example of xliff+its test format / output
15:38:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-54 - Try to come up with example of xliff+its test format / output [on Yves Savourel - due 2014-10-27].
15:39:24 <fsasaki> topic: rules file
15:39:25 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014Oct/0000.html
15:41:05 <fsasaki> felix: discussion on xliff namespace - semantic of attribute would affect spans
15:41:20 <fsasaki> david: would affect also xliff
15:41:28 <fsasaki> ... so makes sense to have the namespace xliff hosted
15:42:44 <fsasaki> christian: need to be clear what the issues is and to see where we have the issue: in xliff or its or both
15:44:19 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014Oct/0023.html
15:44:49 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014Oct/0024.html
15:46:00 <dF> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/URNsAndRegistries-50.html
15:46:23 <fsasaki> yves: processing is fine for ITS processor, to do extra processing before it processes it
15:46:29 <fsasaki> .. if it is well defined
15:46:38 <fsasaki> .. e.g. having an XSLT that does it back and forth
15:46:52 <fsasaki> .. it is a limitation too because you cannot use an XLIFF file with an ITS processor
15:47:10 <fsasaki> .. for me it is something marginal - in most of the cases it will be with an XLIFF processor, not an ITS processor
15:47:39 <fsasaki> felix: agree
15:49:15 <fsasaki> david: above links explains differrent approaches to namespaces in w3c and osasis - w3c uses http uris, osasis uses urn
15:49:29 <fsasaki> .. xliff syntax expects urn type uri, not http type of uri
15:49:42 <fsasaki> .. another good reason to have oasis hosted namespace
15:50:24 <fsasaki> yves: advantage of not using directly ITS namespace:
15:50:33 <fsasaki> .. in some cases we will need to add attributes
15:50:40 <fsasaki> .. e.g. ITS does not define a local "domain"
15:50:46 <fsasaki> .. you need that at XLIFF
15:50:54 <fsasaki> .. we have only a global marker in ITS
15:51:06 <fsasaki> david: that was the primary reason to use the additional namespace
15:51:18 <fsasaki> yves: exactly
15:51:32 <fsasaki> .. that allows you to put together all attributes in the mapping
15:51:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/20-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
15:52:00 <fsasaki> yves: validation is then easier
15:52:38 <fsasaki> yves: there is one case with pre- and post-processing of the file
15:52:49 <fsasaki> .. we don't have a way to map "tools information"
15:53:01 <fsasaki> .. there is no way to map tools info in XLIFF and map that into ITS
15:53:29 <fsasaki> .. which is ok since we have a preprocessing step
15:54:57 <fsasaki> topic: way to describe the transformations
15:55:16 <fsasaki> idea to have an algorithm and implement that in differnet ways: xslt and others
15:55:37 <dF> I agree that the algorithm should be defined independently
15:55:43 <fsasaki> topic: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014Oct/0034.html
15:55:50 <fsasaki> Provenance and Change Track Module
15:55:58 <dF> still will need the xslt example
15:56:11 <fsasaki> action-9?
15:56:12 <trackbot> action-9 -- David Lewis to Look at the XLIFF 2.0 change tracking module for provenance -- due 2014-05-30 -- OPEN
15:56:12 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/track/actions/9
15:56:21 <dF> and preferably at least one more
15:56:28 <fsasaki> yves: we thought about this before, but did not address this yet
15:57:38 <fsasaki> david: not very clear what the relation is
15:57:52 <fsasaki> yves: you could end up with conflicts - which one is right?
15:58:10 <fsasaki> david: one could use ctr for historical provenance
15:58:20 <fsasaki> .. current provenance on core elements should be encoded using the ITS module
15:58:39 <fsasaki> christian: sounds like a new concept / terminology
15:58:45 <fsasaki> .. "historical provenance"
15:58:56 <fsasaki> .. we need to define this properly
15:59:15 <fsasaki> david: purpose of change track is to be able to tell who made change
16:01:04 <fsasaki> topic: next call
16:01:09 <fsasaki> 10 november
16:01:49 <fsasaki> adjourned
16:01:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/20-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
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