13:56:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
13:56:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/16-i18n-irc
13:56:52 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #i18n
13:56:58 <aphillip> trackbot, prepare teleconference
13:57:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:57:02 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 4186
13:57:02 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
13:57:03 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
13:57:03 <trackbot> Date: 16 October 2014
13:57:25 <aphillip> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2014Oct/0008.html
13:57:34 <aphillip> Regrets: Felix
13:58:12 <aphillip> Chair: Addison Phillips
13:58:16 <aphillip> Scribe: Addison Phillips
13:58:20 <aphillip> ScribeNick: aphillip
13:58:28 <aphillip> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:58:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/16-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
13:58:44 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has now started
13:58:51 <Zakim> + +1.703.948.aaaa
13:59:05 <DennisTan> DennisTan has joined #i18n
13:59:07 <David> David has joined #I18n
13:59:33 <Zakim> + +1.813.410.aabb
13:59:54 <Zakim> +aphillip
14:00:01 <aphillip> zakim, who is here?
14:00:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.703.948.aaaa, +1.813.410.aabb, aphillip
14:00:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see David, DennisTan, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, Steve_Atkin, r12a, fantasai, xiaoqian, trackbot
14:00:07 <xiaoqian> zakim, call xiaoqian-mobile
14:00:07 <Zakim> ok, xiaoqian; the call is being made
14:00:09 <Zakim> +Xiaoqian
14:00:26 <Zakim> +??P7
14:00:41 <aphillip> zakim, +1.813.410.aabb is Steve_Atkin
14:00:41 <Zakim> +Steve_Atkin; got it
14:00:54 <aphillip> zakim, +1.703 is DennisTan
14:00:54 <Zakim> +DennisTan; got it
14:00:58 <aphillip> zakim, who is here?
14:00:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see DennisTan, Steve_Atkin, aphillip, Xiaoqian, ??P7
14:01:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see David, DennisTan, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, Steve_Atkin, r12a, fantasai, xiaoqian, trackbot
14:01:08 <aphillip> zakim, ??P7 is David
14:01:09 <David> zakim, ??P7 is me
14:01:09 <Zakim> +David; got it
14:01:09 <Zakim> I already had ??P7 as David, David
14:01:24 <r12a> zakim, dial richard
14:01:24 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
14:01:25 <Zakim> +Richard
14:01:27 <aphillip> zakim, who is here?
14:01:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see DennisTan, Steve_Atkin, aphillip, Xiaoqian, David, Richard (muted)
14:01:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see David, DennisTan, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, Steve_Atkin, r12a, fantasai, xiaoqian, trackbot
14:01:45 <JcK> JcK has joined #i18n
14:02:05 <Leandro> Leandro has joined #i18n
14:03:01 <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aacc
14:03:17 <aphillip> zakim, +1.408 is Leandro
14:03:17 <Zakim> +Leandro; got it
14:03:38 <aphillip> Topic: Agenda
14:03:59 <aphillip> Topic: Action Items
14:04:09 <aphillip> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
14:04:48 <aphillip> close action-343
14:04:50 <trackbot> Closed action-343.
14:04:56 <aphillip> action-343?
14:04:59 <trackbot> action-343 -- Richard Ishida to Reply to css text issues listed in linked email in minutes with satisfaction (if satisfied) -- due 2014-09-18 -- CLOSED
14:05:00 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/343
14:05:07 <aphillip> reopen action-343
14:05:07 <trackbot> Re-opened action-343.
14:05:11 <koji> koji has joined #i18n
14:05:30 <aphillip> close action-349
14:05:30 <trackbot> Closed action-349.
14:05:54 <Zakim> +JcK
14:05:55 <Zakim> + +1.415.231.aadd
14:05:59 <aphillip> close action-351
14:05:59 <trackbot> Closed action-351.
14:06:10 <koji> zakim, +1.415.231.aadd is me
14:06:10 <Zakim> +koji; got it
14:06:36 <aphillip> Topic: Info Share
14:06:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/16-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:07:00 <aphillip> richard: been spending a lot of time writing tests
14:07:05 <aphillip> ... FF33 released
14:07:12 <aphillip> ... supports customized counter styles
14:07:37 <aphillip> richard: FF is also implementing a lot of the counter styles natively
14:08:10 <aphillip> ... but tell everyone to put in their stylesheets
14:08:21 <aphillip> ... FF has the ones also in chrome
14:09:11 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/tests/repository/predefined-counter-styles/results-predefined-counter-styles
14:09:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/16-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:10:18 <aphillip> richard: unicode 7.0 core is now released
14:10:27 <aphillip> ... the full standard text
14:10:51 <r12a> http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode7.0.0/
14:11:00 <aphillip> Topic: Review RADAR
14:11:03 <aphillip> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Review_radar
14:11:45 <r12a> zakim, who's here?
14:11:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see DennisTan, Steve_Atkin, aphillip, Xiaoqian, David, Richard, Leandro, JcK, koji
14:11:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see koji, Leandro, JcK, David, DennisTan, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, Steve_Atkin, r12a, fantasai, xiaoqian, trackbot
14:12:31 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/review-instructions
14:12:38 <aphillip> richard: instructions on how to do reviews
14:12:57 <aphillip> Topic: TPAC Prep
14:13:12 <r12a> s/how to do reviews/how to do reviews for Steve/
14:14:33 <aphillip> addison: (dicussion of details)
14:14:55 <aphillip> richard: do we have three implementations of ruby?
14:15:29 <aphillip> koji: all three are there but havent' tested
14:16:53 <aphillip> attending: leandro, dennis, addison, richard
14:16:58 <aphillip> koji: will try to dial in
14:17:14 <aphillip> xiaoqian: attending joint session
14:17:36 <r12a> s/joint session/joint session with digipub/
14:19:11 <aphillip> richard: on monday/tuesday we often attend other people's meetings
14:21:22 <aphillip> action: addison: send richard example of encoding test
14:21:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-353 - Send richard example of encoding test [on Addison Phillips - due 2014-10-23].
14:21:43 <aphillip> Topic:  Review remaining 5 issues for CSS Text
14:21:53 <aphillip> http://www.w3.org/International/track/products/2
14:22:28 <aphillip> issue-316?
14:22:28 <trackbot> issue-316 -- Line breaking defaults -- open
14:22:28 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/316
14:22:34 <aphillip> richard: would still like a spec change
14:22:38 <r12a> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Oct/0165.html
14:23:01 <aphillip> richard: started with us saying uax14 should be referenced
14:23:16 <aphillip> ... so there is an interop way of implementing
14:23:27 <aphillip> ... we are only asking for this to be the default
14:23:35 <aphillip> ... not necessarily full definition
14:23:48 <aphillip> ... some are needed for fairly-common scripts
14:24:04 <aphillip> ... so falling back to uax14 would be ideal as a start
14:24:07 <aphillip> ... and be interop
14:24:19 <aphillip> ... little controversy about most
14:24:33 <aphillip> .... and browser vendors could extend to cover those characters
14:24:45 <aphillip> addison: support that
14:25:04 <aphillip> koji: reequire normatively or just informatively (suggest it)?
14:25:13 <aphillip> s/reequire/require/
14:25:28 <aphillip> richard: normatively, unless there is some good reason otherwise (can't think of)
14:25:39 <aphillip> ... some characters in tibetan, for example, that don't work
14:25:45 <aphillip> ... unless you implement
14:26:10 <aphillip> koji: scrapping existing code to switch to uax14 difficult
14:26:19 <aphillip> ... already have informative recommendation
14:26:37 <aphillip> ... requiring uax14 too larger
14:27:14 <r12a> zakim, who's noisy?
14:27:25 <Zakim> r12a, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: aphillip (4%), Leandro (12%), koji (74%)
14:27:32 <aphillip> koji: no idea how much content breaks
14:27:47 <aphillip> richard: uax14 tests mostly pass
14:28:02 <Leandro> Zakim, mute me
14:28:02 <Zakim> Leandro should now be muted
14:28:08 <aphillip> ... only corner cases or recently added seem to fail
14:28:13 <aphillip> ... not many of them
14:30:13 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/tests/#css3-text
14:30:48 <aphillip> addison: sort of a SHOULD
14:31:25 <Zakim> -koji
14:31:39 <aphillip> ... implement typographic conventions and fall back on uax14
14:31:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/16-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:31:50 <Zakim> +koji
14:32:54 <aphillip> koji: browser vendors won't discard whole of what they have
14:33:20 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/tests/repository/css3-text/line-break-baspglwj/results-ba#ba_tibetan
14:36:04 <aphillip> koji: uax14 already informatively referenced
14:37:02 <aphillip> richard: think we should ask for normative reference
14:37:30 <aphillip> addison: support
14:37:35 <aphillip> koji: okay either way
14:37:37 <r12a> these tests have been around for a long time, and no movement to fix them is in sight
14:37:46 <aphillip> jck: agree, can ask
14:38:02 <r12a> so i argue that informative isn't working
14:38:05 <aphillip> issue-316: want to ask CSS to make normative, possibly as SHOULD
14:38:05 <trackbot> Notes added to issue-316 Line breaking defaults.
14:38:16 <aphillip> issue-331?
14:38:16 <trackbot> issue-331 -- No kashida style or relationship to styles 'distribute' and 'inter-word' -- open
14:38:16 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/331
14:38:22 <aphillip> richard: can close??
14:38:30 <aphillip> ... what is in spec is enough
14:38:39 <aphillip> ... don't do "stoopid stuff" with kashida
14:40:10 <aphillip> addison: keep as track for the future?
14:40:22 <aphillip> richard: close and look at in next version?
14:40:36 <aphillip> addison: seems reasonable
14:40:47 <Leandro> no objections
14:40:57 <aphillip> close issue-331
14:40:57 <trackbot> Closed issue-331.
14:41:00 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/333
14:41:02 <aphillip> issue-333?
14:41:02 <trackbot> issue-333 -- 'letter-spacing' and Arabic -- open
14:41:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/333
14:41:27 <aphillip> richard: basically addressed
14:41:33 <aphillip> ... had a suggestion about an example
14:41:37 <aphillip> ... but not important
14:41:42 <aphillip> ... think we should close
14:41:51 <aphillip> addison: objections?
14:41:52 <Leandro> no objections
14:41:59 <aphillip> close issue-333
14:41:59 <trackbot> Closed issue-333.
14:42:03 <aphillip> issue-334?
14:42:03 <trackbot> issue-334 -- 'letter-spacing' and Indic -- open
14:42:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/334
14:42:34 <aphillip> http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/334
14:43:01 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2014OctDec/0007.html
14:43:22 <aphillip> richard: in indic, some "letters" are two or more grapheme clusters
14:43:52 <aphillip> ... definitions of "typographic unit" and "grapheme clsuter" are language/script dependent
14:44:31 <aphillip> ... situation is pretty dire in tests I made once away from latin script
14:44:38 <aphillip> ... most use glyphs in fonts
14:44:53 <aphillip> ... and this makes a mess with stuff such as lam-alef ligature
14:45:02 <aphillip> ... some hindi get grouped and other parts spaced away
14:45:06 <aphillip> ... pretty random
14:45:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/16-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:45:33 <aphillip> richard:  don't want to use letter-spacing outside of alphabetics
14:45:53 <aphillip> ... might be too far to say "work out on script-by-script basis before trying it"
14:46:05 <aphillip> ... want a more sensible approach
14:46:19 <aphillip> ... may be useful to add informative sentence
14:46:29 <aphillip> ... needs some "out of box thinking"
14:46:35 <aphillip> ... think about doing on basis of characters
14:46:53 <aphillip> ... and grapheme clusters
14:47:07 <aphillip> ... current approach based on glyphs is not right
14:47:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/16-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:47:25 <aphillip> richard: may be helpful (informative)
14:47:30 <aphillip> ... to say that
14:48:34 <aphillip> ... may be worth having text specifically in the letter-spacing section
14:48:42 <koji> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text/#propdef-letter-spacing
14:49:54 <aphillip> addison: helpful to have a note there to remind people that "typographic charactere units" are not glyphs
14:50:27 <aphillip> issue-354?
14:50:27 <trackbot> issue-354 -- Questions about letter-spacing for Arabic script -- open
14:50:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/354
14:50:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/16-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:50:54 <aphillip> richard: had questions about details
14:50:57 <aphillip> ... fantasai replied
14:51:03 <aphillip> ... clarified some of my questions
14:51:14 <aphillip> ... was just asking if the clarification could make it into spec
14:51:20 <aphillip> ... not normative, just explanatory
14:51:34 <aphillip> addison: write back asking?
14:51:37 <aphillip> richard: think so
14:51:47 <r12a> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2014OctDec/0010.html
14:51:50 <aphillip> ... in this email
14:52:32 <aphillip> koji: looking at this, last reply was from fantasai
14:52:38 <aphillip> ... can you reply to that thread?
14:52:42 <aphillip> richard: okay
14:52:58 <aphillip> koji: css tryy to keep track in email
14:53:03 <aphillip> s/tryy/try/
14:53:10 <aphillip> ... hard to track otherwise
14:53:16 <aphillip> richard: will do
14:53:39 <aphillip> koji: related
14:53:49 <aphillip> ... when tests are created
14:54:09 <aphillip> ... wondering how we can share effort?
14:54:18 <aphillip> richard: most i18n tests already in css test suite
14:54:37 <aphillip> ... some (letter spacing) are informal, but hope to convert via TTWF
14:54:44 <aphillip> ...and submit via github
14:54:52 <aphillip> ... have over 100 tests from me
14:54:59 <aphillip> ... over 600?
14:55:08 <aphillip> koji: to github?
14:55:17 <aphillip> richard: someone picks up and puts into css systeme
14:55:20 <aphillip> ... there is a gap
14:55:34 <aphillip> ... my tests are often in css system for a long time
14:55:43 <aphillip> ... seems to be a long gap
14:55:49 <aphillip> ... after submission
14:56:00 <aphillip> ... spoke to WG chair
14:56:05 <aphillip> ... some process there?
14:56:18 <aphillip> ... waiting on certain spec maturity
14:56:25 <aphillip> ... but some like line break are available from spec
14:56:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/16-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:57:13 <aphillip> Topic: AOB?
14:57:15 <Leandro> Zakim, unmute me
14:57:15 <Zakim> Leandro should no longer be muted
14:57:20 <aphillip> addison: we have two more thing in agenda
14:57:31 <aphillip> leandro: want more time to look into forms
14:58:27 <aphillip> Topic: Locales in Forms
14:58:35 <aphillip> richard: put up test page
14:58:41 <aphillip> ... made other changes to the document
14:58:52 <aphillip> Topic: AOB?
14:58:59 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/tests/test-incubator/locales-in-forms/numbers.html
14:59:44 <Zakim> -DennisTan
14:59:46 <Zakim> -Xiaoqian
14:59:47 <Zakim> -Leandro
14:59:47 <Zakim> -Steve_Atkin
14:59:48 <Zakim> -JcK
14:59:48 <Zakim> -koji
14:59:50 <Zakim> -David
14:59:50 <Zakim> -aphillip
15:00:05 <aphillip> chair: reminder that next week is the last one before TPAC/Unicode break of two weeks
15:00:16 <r12a> zakim, drop richard please
15:00:16 <Zakim> Richard is being disconnected
15:00:18 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has ended
15:00:18 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.703.948.aaaa, aphillip, Xiaoqian, Steve_Atkin, DennisTan, David, Richard, +1.408.536.aacc, Leandro, JcK, koji
15:00:20 <aphillip> ... following call with be the one on the 13th of November at new time
15:00:43 <aphillip> Present: Addison, Richard, Leandro, Koji, Steve, Dennis, Xiaoqian, JcK
15:00:48 <aphillip> rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/16-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:01:16 <aphillip> zakim, bye
15:01:16 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n
15:01:23 <aphillip> rrsagent, make minutes
15:01:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/16-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:01:29 <aphillip> rrsagent, bye
15:01:29 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/16-i18n-actions.rdf :
15:01:29 <RRSAgent> ACTION: addison: send richard example of encoding test [1]
15:01:29 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/16-i18n-irc#T14-21-22