IRC log of i18n on 2014-10-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:56:47 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18n
13:56:47 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:56:52 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #i18n
13:56:58 [aphillip]
trackbot, prepare teleconference
13:57:00 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:57:02 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 4186
13:57:02 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
13:57:03 [trackbot]
Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
13:57:03 [trackbot]
Date: 16 October 2014
13:57:25 [aphillip]
13:57:34 [aphillip]
Regrets: Felix
13:58:12 [aphillip]
Chair: Addison Phillips
13:58:16 [aphillip]
Scribe: Addison Phillips
13:58:20 [aphillip]
ScribeNick: aphillip
13:58:28 [aphillip]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:58:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
13:58:44 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has now started
13:58:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.703.948.aaaa
13:59:05 [DennisTan]
DennisTan has joined #i18n
13:59:07 [David]
David has joined #I18n
13:59:33 [Zakim]
+ +1.813.410.aabb
13:59:54 [Zakim]
14:00:01 [aphillip]
zakim, who is here?
14:00:01 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.703.948.aaaa, +1.813.410.aabb, aphillip
14:00:03 [Zakim]
On IRC I see David, DennisTan, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, Steve_Atkin, r12a, fantasai, xiaoqian, trackbot
14:00:07 [xiaoqian]
zakim, call xiaoqian-mobile
14:00:07 [Zakim]
ok, xiaoqian; the call is being made
14:00:09 [Zakim]
14:00:26 [Zakim]
14:00:41 [aphillip]
zakim, +1.813.410.aabb is Steve_Atkin
14:00:41 [Zakim]
+Steve_Atkin; got it
14:00:54 [aphillip]
zakim, +1.703 is DennisTan
14:00:54 [Zakim]
+DennisTan; got it
14:00:58 [aphillip]
zakim, who is here?
14:00:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DennisTan, Steve_Atkin, aphillip, Xiaoqian, ??P7
14:01:00 [Zakim]
On IRC I see David, DennisTan, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, Steve_Atkin, r12a, fantasai, xiaoqian, trackbot
14:01:08 [aphillip]
zakim, ??P7 is David
14:01:09 [David]
zakim, ??P7 is me
14:01:09 [Zakim]
+David; got it
14:01:09 [Zakim]
I already had ??P7 as David, David
14:01:24 [r12a]
zakim, dial richard
14:01:24 [Zakim]
ok, r12a; the call is being made
14:01:25 [Zakim]
14:01:27 [aphillip]
zakim, who is here?
14:01:28 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DennisTan, Steve_Atkin, aphillip, Xiaoqian, David, Richard (muted)
14:01:30 [Zakim]
On IRC I see David, DennisTan, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, Steve_Atkin, r12a, fantasai, xiaoqian, trackbot
14:01:45 [JcK]
JcK has joined #i18n
14:02:05 [Leandro]
Leandro has joined #i18n
14:03:01 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.536.aacc
14:03:17 [aphillip]
zakim, +1.408 is Leandro
14:03:17 [Zakim]
+Leandro; got it
14:03:38 [aphillip]
Topic: Agenda
14:03:59 [aphillip]
Topic: Action Items
14:04:09 [aphillip]
14:04:48 [aphillip]
close action-343
14:04:50 [trackbot]
Closed action-343.
14:04:56 [aphillip]
14:04:59 [trackbot]
action-343 -- Richard Ishida to Reply to css text issues listed in linked email in minutes with satisfaction (if satisfied) -- due 2014-09-18 -- CLOSED
14:05:00 [trackbot]
14:05:07 [aphillip]
reopen action-343
14:05:07 [trackbot]
Re-opened action-343.
14:05:11 [koji]
koji has joined #i18n
14:05:30 [aphillip]
close action-349
14:05:30 [trackbot]
Closed action-349.
14:05:54 [Zakim]
14:05:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.231.aadd
14:05:59 [aphillip]
close action-351
14:05:59 [trackbot]
Closed action-351.
14:06:10 [koji]
zakim, +1.415.231.aadd is me
14:06:10 [Zakim]
+koji; got it
14:06:36 [aphillip]
Topic: Info Share
14:06:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
14:07:00 [aphillip]
richard: been spending a lot of time writing tests
14:07:05 [aphillip]
... FF33 released
14:07:12 [aphillip]
... supports customized counter styles
14:07:37 [aphillip]
richard: FF is also implementing a lot of the counter styles natively
14:08:10 [aphillip]
... but tell everyone to put in their stylesheets
14:08:21 [aphillip]
... FF has the ones also in chrome
14:09:11 [r12a]
14:09:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
14:10:18 [aphillip]
richard: unicode 7.0 core is now released
14:10:27 [aphillip]
... the full standard text
14:10:51 [r12a]
14:11:00 [aphillip]
Topic: Review RADAR
14:11:03 [aphillip]
14:11:45 [r12a]
zakim, who's here?
14:11:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DennisTan, Steve_Atkin, aphillip, Xiaoqian, David, Richard, Leandro, JcK, koji
14:11:48 [Zakim]
On IRC I see koji, Leandro, JcK, David, DennisTan, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, Steve_Atkin, r12a, fantasai, xiaoqian, trackbot
14:12:31 [r12a]
14:12:38 [aphillip]
richard: instructions on how to do reviews
14:12:57 [aphillip]
Topic: TPAC Prep
14:13:12 [r12a]
s/how to do reviews/how to do reviews for Steve/
14:14:33 [aphillip]
addison: (dicussion of details)
14:14:55 [aphillip]
richard: do we have three implementations of ruby?
14:15:29 [aphillip]
koji: all three are there but havent' tested
14:16:53 [aphillip]
attending: leandro, dennis, addison, richard
14:16:58 [aphillip]
koji: will try to dial in
14:17:14 [aphillip]
xiaoqian: attending joint session
14:17:36 [r12a]
s/joint session/joint session with digipub/
14:19:11 [aphillip]
richard: on monday/tuesday we often attend other people's meetings
14:21:22 [aphillip]
action: addison: send richard example of encoding test
14:21:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-353 - Send richard example of encoding test [on Addison Phillips - due 2014-10-23].
14:21:43 [aphillip]
Topic: Review remaining 5 issues for CSS Text
14:21:53 [aphillip]
14:22:28 [aphillip]
14:22:28 [trackbot]
issue-316 -- Line breaking defaults -- open
14:22:28 [trackbot]
14:22:34 [aphillip]
richard: would still like a spec change
14:22:38 [r12a]
14:23:01 [aphillip]
richard: started with us saying uax14 should be referenced
14:23:16 [aphillip]
... so there is an interop way of implementing
14:23:27 [aphillip]
... we are only asking for this to be the default
14:23:35 [aphillip]
... not necessarily full definition
14:23:48 [aphillip]
... some are needed for fairly-common scripts
14:24:04 [aphillip]
... so falling back to uax14 would be ideal as a start
14:24:07 [aphillip]
... and be interop
14:24:19 [aphillip]
... little controversy about most
14:24:33 [aphillip]
.... and browser vendors could extend to cover those characters
14:24:45 [aphillip]
addison: support that
14:25:04 [aphillip]
koji: reequire normatively or just informatively (suggest it)?
14:25:13 [aphillip]
14:25:28 [aphillip]
richard: normatively, unless there is some good reason otherwise (can't think of)
14:25:39 [aphillip]
... some characters in tibetan, for example, that don't work
14:25:45 [aphillip]
... unless you implement
14:26:10 [aphillip]
koji: scrapping existing code to switch to uax14 difficult
14:26:19 [aphillip]
... already have informative recommendation
14:26:37 [aphillip]
... requiring uax14 too larger
14:27:14 [r12a]
zakim, who's noisy?
14:27:25 [Zakim]
r12a, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: aphillip (4%), Leandro (12%), koji (74%)
14:27:32 [aphillip]
koji: no idea how much content breaks
14:27:47 [aphillip]
richard: uax14 tests mostly pass
14:28:02 [Leandro]
Zakim, mute me
14:28:02 [Zakim]
Leandro should now be muted
14:28:08 [aphillip]
... only corner cases or recently added seem to fail
14:28:13 [aphillip]
... not many of them
14:30:13 [r12a]
14:30:48 [aphillip]
addison: sort of a SHOULD
14:31:25 [Zakim]
14:31:39 [aphillip]
... implement typographic conventions and fall back on uax14
14:31:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
14:31:50 [Zakim]
14:32:54 [aphillip]
koji: browser vendors won't discard whole of what they have
14:33:20 [r12a]
14:36:04 [aphillip]
koji: uax14 already informatively referenced
14:37:02 [aphillip]
richard: think we should ask for normative reference
14:37:30 [aphillip]
addison: support
14:37:35 [aphillip]
koji: okay either way
14:37:37 [r12a]
these tests have been around for a long time, and no movement to fix them is in sight
14:37:46 [aphillip]
jck: agree, can ask
14:38:02 [r12a]
so i argue that informative isn't working
14:38:05 [aphillip]
issue-316: want to ask CSS to make normative, possibly as SHOULD
14:38:05 [trackbot]
Notes added to issue-316 Line breaking defaults.
14:38:16 [aphillip]
14:38:16 [trackbot]
issue-331 -- No kashida style or relationship to styles 'distribute' and 'inter-word' -- open
14:38:16 [trackbot]
14:38:22 [aphillip]
richard: can close??
14:38:30 [aphillip]
... what is in spec is enough
14:38:39 [aphillip]
... don't do "stoopid stuff" with kashida
14:40:10 [aphillip]
addison: keep as track for the future?
14:40:22 [aphillip]
richard: close and look at in next version?
14:40:36 [aphillip]
addison: seems reasonable
14:40:47 [Leandro]
no objections
14:40:57 [aphillip]
close issue-331
14:40:57 [trackbot]
Closed issue-331.
14:41:00 [r12a]
14:41:02 [aphillip]
14:41:02 [trackbot]
issue-333 -- 'letter-spacing' and Arabic -- open
14:41:02 [trackbot]
14:41:27 [aphillip]
richard: basically addressed
14:41:33 [aphillip]
... had a suggestion about an example
14:41:37 [aphillip]
... but not important
14:41:42 [aphillip]
... think we should close
14:41:51 [aphillip]
addison: objections?
14:41:52 [Leandro]
no objections
14:41:59 [aphillip]
close issue-333
14:41:59 [trackbot]
Closed issue-333.
14:42:03 [aphillip]
14:42:03 [trackbot]
issue-334 -- 'letter-spacing' and Indic -- open
14:42:03 [trackbot]
14:42:34 [aphillip]
14:43:01 [aphillip]
14:43:22 [aphillip]
richard: in indic, some "letters" are two or more grapheme clusters
14:43:52 [aphillip]
... definitions of "typographic unit" and "grapheme clsuter" are language/script dependent
14:44:31 [aphillip]
... situation is pretty dire in tests I made once away from latin script
14:44:38 [aphillip]
... most use glyphs in fonts
14:44:53 [aphillip]
... and this makes a mess with stuff such as lam-alef ligature
14:45:02 [aphillip]
... some hindi get grouped and other parts spaced away
14:45:06 [aphillip]
... pretty random
14:45:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
14:45:33 [aphillip]
richard: don't want to use letter-spacing outside of alphabetics
14:45:53 [aphillip]
... might be too far to say "work out on script-by-script basis before trying it"
14:46:05 [aphillip]
... want a more sensible approach
14:46:19 [aphillip]
... may be useful to add informative sentence
14:46:29 [aphillip]
... needs some "out of box thinking"
14:46:35 [aphillip]
... think about doing on basis of characters
14:46:53 [aphillip]
... and grapheme clusters
14:47:07 [aphillip]
... current approach based on glyphs is not right
14:47:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
14:47:25 [aphillip]
richard: may be helpful (informative)
14:47:30 [aphillip]
... to say that
14:48:34 [aphillip]
... may be worth having text specifically in the letter-spacing section
14:48:42 [koji]
14:49:54 [aphillip]
addison: helpful to have a note there to remind people that "typographic charactere units" are not glyphs
14:50:27 [aphillip]
14:50:27 [trackbot]
issue-354 -- Questions about letter-spacing for Arabic script -- open
14:50:27 [trackbot]
14:50:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
14:50:54 [aphillip]
richard: had questions about details
14:50:57 [aphillip]
... fantasai replied
14:51:03 [aphillip]
... clarified some of my questions
14:51:14 [aphillip]
... was just asking if the clarification could make it into spec
14:51:20 [aphillip]
... not normative, just explanatory
14:51:34 [aphillip]
addison: write back asking?
14:51:37 [aphillip]
richard: think so
14:51:47 [r12a]
14:51:50 [aphillip]
... in this email
14:52:32 [aphillip]
koji: looking at this, last reply was from fantasai
14:52:38 [aphillip]
... can you reply to that thread?
14:52:42 [aphillip]
richard: okay
14:52:58 [aphillip]
koji: css tryy to keep track in email
14:53:03 [aphillip]
14:53:10 [aphillip]
... hard to track otherwise
14:53:16 [aphillip]
richard: will do
14:53:39 [aphillip]
koji: related
14:53:49 [aphillip]
... when tests are created
14:54:09 [aphillip]
... wondering how we can share effort?
14:54:18 [aphillip]
richard: most i18n tests already in css test suite
14:54:37 [aphillip]
... some (letter spacing) are informal, but hope to convert via TTWF
14:54:44 [aphillip]
...and submit via github
14:54:52 [aphillip]
... have over 100 tests from me
14:54:59 [aphillip]
... over 600?
14:55:08 [aphillip]
koji: to github?
14:55:17 [aphillip]
richard: someone picks up and puts into css systeme
14:55:20 [aphillip]
... there is a gap
14:55:34 [aphillip]
... my tests are often in css system for a long time
14:55:43 [aphillip]
... seems to be a long gap
14:55:49 [aphillip]
... after submission
14:56:00 [aphillip]
... spoke to WG chair
14:56:05 [aphillip]
... some process there?
14:56:18 [aphillip]
... waiting on certain spec maturity
14:56:25 [aphillip]
... but some like line break are available from spec
14:56:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
14:57:13 [aphillip]
Topic: AOB?
14:57:15 [Leandro]
Zakim, unmute me
14:57:15 [Zakim]
Leandro should no longer be muted
14:57:20 [aphillip]
addison: we have two more thing in agenda
14:57:31 [aphillip]
leandro: want more time to look into forms
14:58:27 [aphillip]
Topic: Locales in Forms
14:58:35 [aphillip]
richard: put up test page
14:58:41 [aphillip]
... made other changes to the document
14:58:52 [aphillip]
Topic: AOB?
14:58:59 [r12a]
14:59:44 [Zakim]
14:59:46 [Zakim]
14:59:47 [Zakim]
14:59:47 [Zakim]
14:59:48 [Zakim]
14:59:48 [Zakim]
14:59:50 [Zakim]
14:59:50 [Zakim]
15:00:05 [aphillip]
chair: reminder that next week is the last one before TPAC/Unicode break of two weeks
15:00:16 [r12a]
zakim, drop richard please
15:00:16 [Zakim]
Richard is being disconnected
15:00:18 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has ended
15:00:18 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.703.948.aaaa, aphillip, Xiaoqian, Steve_Atkin, DennisTan, David, Richard, +1.408.536.aacc, Leandro, JcK, koji
15:00:20 [aphillip]
... following call with be the one on the 13th of November at new time
15:00:43 [aphillip]
Present: Addison, Richard, Leandro, Koji, Steve, Dennis, Xiaoqian, JcK
15:00:48 [aphillip]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:01:16 [aphillip]
zakim, bye
15:01:16 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #i18n
15:01:23 [aphillip]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:01:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:01:29 [aphillip]
rrsagent, bye
15:01:29 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
15:01:29 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: addison: send richard example of encoding test [1]
15:01:29 [RRSAgent]
recorded in