IRC log of ua on 2014-10-09

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17:11:55 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/09-ua-irc
17:11:57 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:11:57 [Zakim]
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17:11:59 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
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ok, trackbot, I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM already started
17:12:00 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:12:00 [trackbot]
Date: 09 October 2014
17:13:18 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
17:13:47 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:14:13 [jeanne]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:14:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Kim_Patch, Greg_Lowney, [IPcaller], Jeanne
17:18:05 [KimPatch]
Topic: survey
17:18:09 [Greg]
Survey results at https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20141007/results
17:19:12 [Greg]
Wiki with the draft tests: https://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Tests_for_CR
17:19:20 [KimPatch]
Topic: 2.3.1
17:19:29 [Greg]
We start with Jim's draft test for 2.3.1.
17:19:36 [Greg]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/2.3.1
17:23:00 [jeanne]
GL: I want to talk about the format and general template we are going to use.
17:23:22 [jeanne]
JR: last week we agreed to follow the WCAG style of tests
17:24:03 [jeanne]
... the larger issue, is the emotionally satisfying issue of only testing one thing
17:24:24 [jeanne]
GL: We need a test document that has samples of different types of elements.
17:25:37 [jeanne]
GL: We could provide test documents for a lot of formats, SVG, etc.
17:25:45 [jeanne]
JR: HTML will be good enough.
17:26:17 [jeanne]
GL: Our samples can serve a template for testers to create documents in other formats their user agents support
17:27:29 [KimPatch]
Greg: do test documents that W3C already has exist for HTML?
17:27:44 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: we should how we do our own
17:28:06 [KimPatch]
Jan: one big document, also in the process of breaking it into smaller documents
17:28:21 [KimPatch]
Greg: first step go through the SC and make a list of test documents we need
17:28:52 [KimPatch]
Greg: we need an ATS document that has one of each type of enabled element, that would be for testing this set of SC's
17:29:51 [KimPatch]
Jeane: some of what ATAG did is we put a dummy link to enable elements so we knew when we were finished what we needed
17:30:04 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: if one person could focus on getting these documents together that would be useful
17:30:36 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: we want to have enough of these done so we can actually do testing at TPAC
17:31:33 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: potentially we could have a lot of observers there, and we can start going to the test criteria with everyone having a different user agent and get a lot of data put upon the screen that says whether or not this browser meets this success criteria
17:32:52 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: that where we are doing important work that needs to get done in terms of getting to CR, but we are also promoting to everyone who attends – whether or not this browser meets UAAG, which puts pressure on all the browsers to meet UAAG. We need to start letting people see that people are implementing UAAG
17:33:11 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: it's also getting work done but also positioning ourselves publicly as a force to be reckoned with
17:34:10 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: Jan and I are going to sit down on the 21st and 22nd and blast through any tests that aren't written yet so we have them in time for TPAC.
17:34:24 [KimPatch]
Jan: Test documents will take longer
17:34:50 [KimPatch]
Greg: we could start with the easy ones. Where is a list of all the enabled elements in HTML 5?
17:36:09 [KimPatch]
Greg: of these test files supposed to be minimal to demonstrate the thing being tested or are they supposed to also be demonstrations of good best practices including best accessibility practices?
17:36:26 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: no, just the small files just for testing
17:36:53 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: do we need is not accessible file?
17:36:55 [KimPatch]
Jan: yeah, just for a couple of things
17:37:01 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/CR20/TestPrep.html
17:38:43 [KimPatch]
Jan: UAAG has a lot of stuff about control, but it's mostly things like pause and skip around
17:39:06 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: videos from NASA
17:39:49 [KimPatch]
Jan: UAAG is going to have more need of accessible test files than ATAG
17:40:09 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/CR20/WCAG2_HTML_Problem_File.html
17:40:22 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: inaccessible file
17:40:26 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/CR20/WCAG2_HTML_Problem_File_Fixed.html
17:41:43 [KimPatch]
Greg: why a tiny image that's difficult to hover over very narrow vertical bar
17:41:59 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: media is not there yet
17:42:33 [KimPatch]
Greg: going back over other comments to see if there's decisions we need to make on 2.3.1
17:43:11 [KimPatch]
Jan: needs to be reworded to only use words we have predefined
17:43:21 [jeanne]
All steps must be true or false
17:43:31 [KimPatch]
Jan: we have a definition for direct navigation
17:44:12 [jeanne]
We cannot use words that aren't defined in our Glossary
17:44:16 [KimPatch]
Jan: we should stick as closely as we can to the SC wording
17:44:57 [KimPatch]
Jan: any rewording is a departure from the normative
17:45:12 [KimPatch]
Greg: use document instead of page
17:45:51 [KimPatch]
Greg: rewrite to say the test document has each type of, and we'll use some phrase meaning verify for each type
17:46:10 [KimPatch]
Jan: selection of types – very difficult to pull out every type
17:46:26 [KimPatch]
Greg: embedded objects
17:46:28 [KimPatch]
Jan: that should be done
17:46:41 [KimPatch]
Jan: I agree that we get rid of assertion, procedure instead of assertion
17:46:58 [KimPatch]
Jan: cleaning up the format, getting rid of the line breaks
17:47:28 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: important to write these in the wiki instead of email – can send email with links to wiki
17:48:03 [KimPatch]
Greg: I was reluctant to edit the wiki and change Jim's wording, because we could have a survey potentially with answers responding to Jim's wording and then have to mine after I changed it
17:49:14 [KimPatch]
Jan: I don't think we should be linking in surveys to the wiki – it changes too much
17:49:43 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: anything that we want to change, make changes
17:50:17 [KimPatch]
Greg: I agree that we should keep a record – Jim writes one, Greg changes, Kim makes comments on Greg's, hasn't seen Jim's
17:50:31 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: is that the way we work?
17:52:19 [KimPatch]
Kim: do a copy paste if you do changes so there's an original etc.
17:52:34 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: can we do the last one on top?
17:52:48 [KimPatch]
Greg: I did change is right in line so you could compare with what I included for people to decide
17:57:17 [KimPatch]
Kim: outdated section at the bottom – copy the current, put it at the top of outdated, then make your changes to the current?
17:57:38 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: I want to make sure not to have to do a lot of cleanup on these files before I move them into the SQL database
17:57:56 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: I suspect it's going to be a brutal copy paste job
17:59:20 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: give people a lot of ways to filter things if you don't want to see video etc., test page, allows you to check whether it's pass or fail, records that in the database and gives a report that tells you – we've got two implementations of this success criteria but only one or none for this success criteria – and you can put comments in.
17:59:37 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: all the success criteria and tests have to be preloaded into the database before – that's the copy paste job
18:00:31 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: it's a really slick thing once it's working. That's eventually where this goes, and then we can start testing
18:01:34 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: before we start the formal testing we needed informal report where we know what our success criteria that we may not get two limitations of – the at risk success criteria. We need to have a list of those. If we declare something is at risk we can drop it from the final stack without having to go back to another CR and go through the whole process again. it's important to identify the...
18:01:36 [KimPatch]
...at risk ones, and that's what we will be doing at TPAC
18:02:11 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/09-ua-minutes.html jeanne
18:03:37 [KimPatch]
Topic: 2.2.3
18:03:44 [KimPatch]
Topic: 2.2.4
18:04:12 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: Greg's comments very good, these are things we want to talk about – how we are doing it, this is very useful
18:04:41 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
18:06:01 [KimPatch]
Greg: look at the draft wording – consult the manual if necessary
18:06:24 [KimPatch]
Jan: consult the documentation
18:06:49 [KimPatch]
Greg: we need a big decision on how we want to handle this whole extensions thing
18:07:28 [KimPatch]
Greg: the one about showing direct navigation – let's say a browser needs the mouseless browsing add-on. Are we expecting the tester to iterate – I consult the documentation and I can't see any way to do this, then I go to the extension to provide this functionality?
18:07:43 [KimPatch]
Jan: I don't think so – they need to know ahead of time the package that they need to put together
18:08:17 [KimPatch]
Jan: it depends on if they are taking more of an adversarial role or not – this failed, so let's see if there any extensions – it's really up to them
18:08:59 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: keep in mind it's really up to us – we're the ones that will do the testing. But Jan is right we have to assume that the tester will put together the package.
18:09:11 [KimPatch]
Greg: so it's the user agent and all the extensions that are installed with it
18:09:35 [jeanne]
We should put a statement early on that by "user agent" we mean the user agent and all extensions that are all being used to meet it.
18:09:38 [KimPatch]
Greg: we should make that explicit somewhere in the startup of the testing procedure
18:10:13 [KimPatch]
Greg: as a general thing when everyone is writing these tests there are certain things to keep in mind – helpful to make a list of them, such as keep your wording technology neutral
18:10:28 [KimPatch]
Jan: I agree, and your comments are half of that style guide
18:10:43 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: we could make it a wiki page, and link it
18:11:26 [KimPatch]
Greg: I like the method of saying it in a technology neutral fashion and then in parentheses giving an example
18:11:34 [KimPatch]
Jan: agreed
18:12:14 [KimPatch]
Greg: for example say shortcut, and then in parentheses a modifier, access key whatever
18:13:41 [KimPatch]
Jeanne: writing up thoughts for the style guide
18:13:50 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
18:16:52 [jeanne]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Tests_for_CR
18:17:03 [jeanne]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Test_Writing_Style_Guide
18:23:24 [Greg]
How will we handle it when the tests for several SC can and should be combined into a single test pass?
18:27:19 [KimPatch]
Greg: I'll edit the test template, and then Jeanne can correct later to make sure it's good for cut-and-paste
18:27:38 [jeanne]
JS: I think we need to talk about the combo or chained SC tests when we find them.
18:27:55 [Greg]
E.g. use heading levels appropriate for the final SQL database, rather than the Wiki pages.
18:28:42 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
18:28:46 [Zakim]
-Greg_Lowney
18:28:49 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:28:50 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:28:50 [Zakim]
Attendees were Kim_Patch, Greg_Lowney, [IPcaller], Jeanne
19:03:24 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:03:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/09-ua-minutes.html jeanne
19:03:38 [jeanne]
zakim, IPcaller is Jan
19:03:38 [Zakim]
sorry, jeanne, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'
19:03:54 [jeanne]
present+ Jan
19:04:07 [jeanne]
present- [IPcaller]
19:04:14 [jeanne]
chair: Jeanne
19:04:22 [jeanne]
rrsgent, make minutes
19:04:47 [jeanne]
s/ rrsgent, make minutes//
19:04:54 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:04:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/09-ua-minutes.html jeanne
19:05:18 [jeanne]
regrets+ Jim, Kelly
19:05:29 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:05:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/09-ua-minutes.html jeanne