14:46:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #annotation
14:46:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/08-annotation-irc
14:46:40 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:46:40 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #annotation
14:46:42 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2666
14:46:42 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_(ANNO)11:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
14:46:43 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
14:46:43 <trackbot> Date: 08 October 2014
14:47:24 <fjh> Chair: Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sanderson
14:47:32 <fjh> Present+ Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sanderson
14:47:59 <fjh> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2014Oct/0016.html
14:48:14 <fjh> fjh has changed the topic to: Code 2666, Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2014Oct/0016.html
14:48:39 <fjh> Regrets+ Ivan_Herman, Doug_Schepers, Bill_Kasdorf, Ben_De_Meester, Luc_Moreau
14:49:36 <fjh> Regrets+ Antonio_Olmo_Titos(tripu)
14:50:03 <fjh> Topic: Scribe Selection, Announcements, Minutes Approval
14:50:06 <paoloC> paoloC has joined #annotation
14:51:50 <Zakim> DPUB_(ANNO)11:00AM has now started
14:51:57 <Zakim> +azaroth
14:52:10 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #annotation
14:52:19 <azaroth> Morning all
14:52:36 <fjh> Regrets+ Nick_Stenning
14:52:54 <azaroth> Thanks!
14:53:04 <azaroth> Present+ Rob_Sanderson
14:53:39 <azaroth> Zakim hasn't started the call yet?
14:53:45 <azaroth> zakim, who is here?
14:53:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see azaroth
14:53:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see azaroth, paoloC, Zakim, RRSAgent, dauwhe, ivan, KevinMarks, JakeHart, fjh, Morbus, tripu, bigbluehat, nickstenn, dwhly, Mitar, stain, trackbot
14:54:33 <fjh> Regrets+ Markus_Gylling
14:55:30 <azaroth> I bike into work before the call as I have a 9am meeting after it. So leave in plenty of time to not worry about getting delayed.
14:56:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:56:22 <fjh> zakim, ipcaller is me
14:56:22 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
14:56:38 <TimCole> TimCole has joined #annotation
14:56:42 <dwhly> zakim, what is the phone number
14:56:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'what is the phone number', dwhly
14:56:47 <dwhly> heh
14:56:49 <fjh> zakim, code?
14:56:49 <Zakim> the conference code is 2666 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fjh
14:57:00 <fjh> s/heh//
14:57:15 <fjh> rrsagent, generate minutes
14:57:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/08-annotation-minutes.html fjh
14:57:23 <Zakim> +dauwhe
14:57:36 <Zakim> +TimCole
14:57:55 <dauwhe> Present+ Dave_Cramer
14:58:06 <fjh> Present+ Tim_Cole
14:58:26 <Zakim> +dwhly
14:58:49 <dwhly> Present+ Dan_Whaley
14:59:19 <Jacob> Jacob has joined #annotation
14:59:22 <Zakim> +Matt_Haas
14:59:47 <fjh> Present+ Matt_Haas
15:00:50 <csillag> csillag has joined #annotation
15:00:52 <Zakim> +bigbluehat
15:01:13 <fjh> Present+ Benjamin_Young
15:01:15 <Kyrce> Kyrce has joined #annotation
15:01:28 <Zakim> +Kyrce
15:01:28 <bigbluehat> can I map my name to bigbluehat?
15:01:30 <paoloC> Present+ Paolo_Ciccarese
15:01:40 <Matt_Haas> Matt_Haas has joined #annotation
15:02:17 <fjh> you can map your number to a name using this tool, it can help https://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3
15:02:24 <bigbluehat> awesome. I'll try
15:02:36 <Zakim> +rayd
15:02:50 <Zakim> +unknown
15:03:20 <Matt_Haas> present+ Matt_Haas
15:03:23 <csillag> hi all,
15:03:26 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:03:34 <csillag> call center gives me "Pass code is not valid" for 2666#
15:03:39 <rayd> rayd has joined #annotation
15:04:00 <rayd> present+ Ray Denenberg
15:04:05 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:04:08 <Zakim> +chillag
15:04:19 <csillag> ok, now it worked.
15:04:23 <Matt_Haas> For 2666# to work you must wait unitl the automated voice stops speaking (I think)
15:04:29 <fjh> Present+ Ray_Denenberg
15:04:36 <fjh> Present- Ray Denenberg
15:04:39 <Jacob> present+ Jacob
15:04:42 <Kyrce> Present+ Kyrce_Swenson
15:04:52 <Jacob> present+ Jacob Jett
15:05:02 <fjh> present- Jacob Jett
15:05:11 <fjh> Present+ Jacob_Jett
15:05:25 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
15:05:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see azaroth, fjh, dauwhe, TimCole, dwhly, Matt_Haas, bigbluehat, Kyrce, rayd, unknown, chillag
15:05:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see rayd, Matt_Haas, Kyrce, csillag, Jacob, TimCole, azaroth, paoloC, Zakim, RRSAgent, dauwhe, KevinMarks, JakeHart, fjh, Morbus, tripu, bigbluehat, nickstenn, dwhly,
15:05:27 <Zakim> ... Mitar, stain, trackbot
15:05:33 <Zakim> +tilgovi
15:06:17 <azaroth> zakim, pick a victim
15:06:17 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose rayd
15:06:38 <dwhly> Present+ Dan_Whaley
15:06:47 <dwhly> Present+ Randall_Leeds
15:07:07 <tilgovi> tilgovi has joined #annotation
15:07:15 <tilgovi> Randall Leeds
15:07:18 <fjh> ScribeNick: rayd
15:07:26 <raphael> raphael has joined #annotation
15:07:30 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:08:19 <Zakim> +gatemezi
15:08:40 <raphael> zakim, gatemezi is raphael
15:08:40 <Zakim> +raphael; got it
15:09:14 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:09:15 <rayd> no announcements
15:09:20 <fjh> proposed RESOLUTION: 1 October 2014 minutes approved with Rob added as chair: http://www.w3.org/2014/10/01-annotation-minutes.html
15:09:36 <rayd> minutes accepted with addition that rob is chair
15:09:49 <rayd>  proposed RESOLUTION: 1 October 2014 minutes approved with Rob added as chair: http://www.w3.org/2014/10/01-annotation-minutes.html [11:09] * azaroth and if you want to do something without it being minuted, use:   /me ...
15:10:01 <fjh> Topic: Extended Data Model Introduction
15:10:10 <rayd> rob walk through second half data model
15:10:26 <fjh> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:10:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/08-annotation-minutes.html fjh
15:10:37 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:10:38 <fjh> http://www.slideshare.net/paolociccarese/open-annotation-specifiers-and-specific-resources-tutorial
15:11:08 <JakeHart> Present+ Jake_Hartnell
15:11:18 <rayd> used to think about core extensions but now single namespace
15:11:34 <rayd> specifiers and specific resources slide 2
15:11:49 <fjh> s/used/paolo: used/
15:11:56 <fjh> s/specifiers/… specifiers/
15:12:07 <fjh> slide 2
15:12:22 <rayd> ... slide 3 basic anno model. can annotate one or more targets and have one or more bodies
15:12:44 <rayd> ...... body and target can be URI
15:13:06 <rayd> ... but most of time want to annotate a fragment of a resource
15:13:34 <rayd> ...uri fragments have limitations so we need to get beyond that
15:13:37 <raphael_> raphael_ has joined #annotation
15:13:56 <raphael_> raphael_ has left #annotation
15:13:57 <raphael_> raphael_ has joined #annotation
15:14:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/08-annotation-minutes.html raphael_
15:14:30 <rayd> ... ... slide 5 fragment of an image
15:15:01 <raphael_> Present+ raphael
15:15:11 <rayd> ... same for body
15:15:28 <rayd> ... called specific resouce not specific body or target
15:15:37 <rayd> ... slide 7
15:16:12 <rayd> ... tool to specify selectors
15:16:58 <fjh> slide 8 notes types of specifiers, including styles
15:17:11 <rayd> ... highlight with different colors to indicate different things
15:17:54 <rayd> ...... URI one way to indicate a fragment, but they don't cover all the use cases
15:18:24 <rayd> ...  (URI fragment)
15:19:13 <raphael_> Raphael: The Media Fragment URI specification, http://www.w3.org/TR/media-frags/, specifies how to specify simple temporal fragments (using two time codes) and simple spatial fragments (reduced to rectangle bounding box using a top,left position + width and  height, aka xywh)
15:19:19 <rayd> ... some selectors built in but you can make up your own
15:19:33 <fjh> paolo: spec has a number of selectors that have been generally agreed, could define additional selectors but need interoperability
15:19:35 <rayd> ... 10
15:20:30 <rayd> ... 12 list of builtin selectors
15:20:41 <rayd> ... range, etc.
15:22:32 <fjh> paolo: fragment URIs had some disagreement but other representations had URI issues, but so far seems the best choice
15:22:46 <rayd> ... 13
15:23:50 <rayd> ...... 15  fragment selector
15:24:10 <fjh> slide 14, source + fragment, e.g  source1#namedSection
15:24:19 <rayd> ... 16 breaks URI into source and selector, conforms to media fragment spec
15:24:46 <rayd> ... 17 SVG selector to identify fragment of image
15:24:49 <fjh> q+ to ask degree of concern about use of fragment URIs
15:25:29 <rayd> ... ... can define squares, circles, ovals
15:26:15 <fjh> ack fjh
15:26:15 <Zakim> fjh, you wanted to ask degree of concern about use of fragment URIs
15:27:09 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #annotation
15:27:15 <Zakim> -chillag
15:27:25 <fjh> raymond: ok with fragment URIs but also need to be able to create structured data
15:27:39 <azaroth> s/raymond/raphael/
15:27:46 <Zakim> +chillag
15:27:51 <fjh> raphael: concerned about validation
15:27:55 <rayd> raphael  need to make sure that what you're breaking down is consistent with URI and not clear how
15:28:04 <fjh> ISSUE: How to validate fragment selectors
15:28:04 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-7 - How to validate fragment selectors.  Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/annotation/track/issues/7/edit>.
15:29:11 <rayd> paolo  media spec allows simple fragment, rectangles etc.
15:29:26 <rayd> ... need use cases for more complex cases
15:29:27 <dauwhe> s/paolo/paolo:/
15:29:44 <fjh> s/paolo/raphael/
15:30:27 <rayd> rob: some were offered at CG
15:30:40 <TimCole> q+
15:30:48 <fjh> summary so far: we are ok with media fragment URIs for simple cases of time and box region selection, need use cases to justify more complicated cases
15:31:10 <fjh> yet paolo notes for biology there are more precise annotation selection cases, also for maps
15:31:10 <rayd> paolo: there are plenty of cases
15:31:31 <rayd> ... with SVG seletor can do many of these things
15:31:57 <raphael_> Raphael: the question is then whether complex regions (e.g. arbitrary complex polygons) should actually be defined in the hash part of a URI or not
15:32:14 <rayd> ... but there are other ways to do it
15:32:46 <rayd> ... maphub uses svg as well as text selector
15:32:56 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #annotation
15:33:05 <rayd> ... they think text selector easier to encode
15:33:05 <raphael_> Raphael: maphub uses svg and WKT
15:33:35 <fjh> fjh: is there an issue to record
15:33:46 <fjh> paolo: no, extensibility takes care of it
15:33:53 <rayd> ... selectors are important but take care to avoid proliferation
15:34:31 <rayd> tcole: potential for fallbacks in selectors
15:34:57 <fjh> http://maphub.github.io/
15:35:37 <TimCole> q-
15:36:00 <rayd> paolo: some selectors only specific applications understand but others can fallback
15:36:36 <fjh> paolo: should keep this in mind, can have complicated selector and also simpler one for fallback (eg shaped region or rectangle)
15:37:13 <rayd> rob:  sequence of fallbacks rather than random choice
15:38:04 <fjh> azaroth: IDPF had  ePub need for this
15:38:21 <rayd> ... issue 2 in github
15:38:40 <fjh> see issue 2 in github
15:38:41 <fjh> s/see issue 2 in github//
15:38:58 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #annotation
15:39:02 <Zakim> -tilgovi
15:39:53 <rayd> paolo:  19 text selectors.  Issues,  copyright for example, counting characters
15:40:18 <rayd> ... text quote v. text position
15:40:44 <Zakim> -chillag
15:40:58 <rayd> ... 21 a paragraph is annotated and there is text before and after
15:41:03 <Zakim> +chillag
15:41:33 <azaroth> Or if the change is big blocks of text being moved around
15:41:52 <azaroth> And the prefix + exact + suffix moves together
15:42:00 <rayd> ... 22 text position selector, probably simplest.
15:42:29 <csillag> q+
15:42:42 <rayd> ... 23 start and end
15:42:48 <azaroth> ack csillag
15:44:52 <fjh> paolo: need to be clear text quote and position depend on document stability.
15:45:18 <fjh> csillag: have implemented both of these, sometimes you might want to use multiple methods at once
15:45:40 <rayd> paolo ... 24 state
15:46:09 <rayd> ... keep track of when page was annotated
15:46:53 <rayd> ... time and http request state are recorded
15:48:02 <rayd> ... 25 time state
15:48:04 <fjh> paolo: state was discussed as “setup”, e.g. rotate 3D model so it is asame view as when annotated
15:48:14 <fjh> s/asame/same/
15:48:33 <rayd> ...27 http reauest state
15:49:12 <rayd> .. selectors can be used together with state to properly identify target
15:49:23 <fjh> s/reauest/request/
15:49:48 <rayd> ...29 style specifiers
15:50:11 <rayd> ...  can say annotation is styled by css style
15:51:14 <rayd> ... 31 scope specifier.  Might annotate an image w/in a web page
15:52:05 <fjh> paolo: issue raised of whether annotation is for image in context of page, or independent of page. My experience is that context generally matters.
15:52:34 <rayd> ... e.g. scope is web page and source is image in the web page
15:52:48 <TimCole> q+
15:53:04 <Zakim> -bigbluehat
15:53:23 <fjh> paolo: pragmatically annotate the image and then note the scope
15:53:31 <rayd> ... 32 annotated telescop image
15:53:37 <fjh> ack TimCole
15:54:40 <rayd> tim: selector state straightforward but how to implement use cases.
15:55:00 <fjh> tcole: concerned about use cases supporting style, scope and maybe should revisit
15:55:01 <rayd> ... style and scope  specifiers need more work
15:56:10 <rayd> rob: hope we don't need to revisit whether there is a requirement for them, but discuss how to implement
15:56:35 <rayd> paolo: tim right, we never reached agreement
15:56:58 <rayd> rob: will generate two issues.
15:57:21 <azaroth> ACTION: Rob Sanderson to generate "status quo" proposal issues for Style and Scope
15:57:21 <trackbot> Error finding 'Rob'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/annotation/track/users>.
15:57:30 <azaroth> ACTION: azaroth to generate "status quo" proposal issues for Style and Scope
15:57:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1 - Generate "status quo" proposal issues for style and scope [on Robert Sanderson - due 2014-10-15].
15:58:22 <rayd> adjourned!
15:58:27 <Zakim> -dauwhe
15:58:28 <Zakim> -raphael
15:58:28 <Zakim> -Matt_Haas
15:58:29 <Zakim> -Kyrce
15:58:29 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:58:30 <Zakim> -azaroth
15:58:30 <Zakim> -TimCole
15:58:34 <Zakim> -unknown
15:58:35 <Zakim> -dwhly
15:58:35 <Kyrce> Kyrce has left #annotation
15:58:37 <Zakim> -chillag
15:58:46 <Zakim> -rayd
15:58:55 <fjh> azaroth: please review issues in github and discuss on list
15:59:02 <fjh> Topic: Other business
15:59:03 <fjh> none
15:59:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/08-annotation-minutes.html raphael_
15:59:06 <fjh> Topic: Adjourn
15:59:07 <azaroth> :)
15:59:16 <fjh> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:59:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/08-annotation-minutes.html fjh
15:59:33 <Zakim> -fjh
15:59:34 <Zakim> DPUB_(ANNO)11:00AM has ended
15:59:35 <Zakim> Attendees were azaroth, fjh, dauwhe, TimCole, dwhly, Matt_Haas, bigbluehat, Kyrce, rayd, unknown, [IPcaller], chillag, tilgovi, raphael
15:59:50 <raphael_> s/Present+ raphael/Present+ Raphael_Troncy
15:59:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/08-annotation-minutes.html raphael_
15:59:59 <fjh> s/Thanks!//
16:00:16 <fjh> s/I bike into work before the call as I have a 9am meeting after it. So leave in plenty of time to not worry about getting delayed.//
16:00:20 <azaroth> Thanks Raphael, great to have you as part of the WG :)
16:00:28 <fjh> s/hi all,//
16:00:37 <fjh> s/call center gives me "Pass code is not valid" for 2666#//
16:00:46 <fjh> s/ok, now it worked.//
16:00:59 <fjh> s/For 2666# to work you must wait unitl the automated voice stops speaking (I think)//
16:01:41 <fjh> s/^proposed RESOLUTION/RESOLUTION/
16:02:00 <fjh> s/rob walk/Paolo walk/
16:02:50 <fjh> s; s/asame/same/;;
16:02:56 <fjh> s/asame/same/g
16:03:16 <fjh> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:03:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/08-annotation-minutes.html fjh
16:03:41 <fjh> s/Zakim hasn't started the call yet?//
16:04:07 <fjh> s/[11:09] * azaroth and if you want to do something without it being minuted, use: /me …//