14:48:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:48:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/07-wai-wcag-irc
14:48:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:48:30 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
14:48:30 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
14:48:31 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
14:48:31 <trackbot> Date: 07 October 2014
14:48:42 <AWK> Chair: AWK
14:48:46 <AWK> Zakim, agenda?
14:48:46 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
14:48:47 <Zakim> 3. Survey for September 30th, 2014: [from Joshue]
14:48:47 <Zakim> 4. Techniques Work Review: [from Joshue]
14:49:11 <AWK> zakim, clear agenda?
14:49:11 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:49:45 <AWK> agenda+ Public Survey update
14:50:00 <AWK> agenda+ TPAC reminder
14:50:31 <AWK> agenda+ Survey for October 7, 2014  https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20141007Misc/
14:50:45 <AWK> Agenda+ Discuss Action 274 and Mobile TF feedback
14:50:57 <AWK> Agenda+ Follow up on Aside technique https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_the_aside_element_to_indicate_tangentially_related_content
14:51:06 <AWK> agenda+ Techniques Work Review https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Working_Group_Techniques_Development_Assignments
14:52:04 <AWK> Regrets+ Bruce_Bailey, Mike_Elledge
14:56:19 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has now started
14:56:27 <Zakim> +AWK
14:56:42 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #wai-wcag
14:56:54 <Joshue> trackbot, start meeting
14:56:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:56:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
14:56:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM already started
14:56:59 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
14:56:59 <trackbot> Date: 07 October 2014
14:57:00 <Joshue> zakim, agenda?
14:57:00 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
14:57:01 <Zakim> 1. Public Survey update [from AWK]
14:57:01 <Zakim> 2. TPAC reminder [from AWK]
14:57:01 <Zakim> 3. Survey for October 7, 2014  https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20141007Misc/ [from AWK]
14:57:01 <Zakim> 4. Discuss Action 274 and Mobile TF feedback [from AWK]
14:57:01 <Zakim> 5. Follow up on Aside technique https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_the_aside_element_to_indicate_tangentially_related_content [from AWK]
14:57:02 <Zakim> 6. Techniques Work Review https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Working_Group_Techniques_Development_Assignments [from AWK]
14:57:22 <Joshue> Chair: AWK
14:57:32 <AWK> everything is set
14:58:32 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:58:39 <Joshue> zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
14:58:39 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
14:58:52 <adam_solomon> adam_solomon has joined #wai-wcag
14:59:20 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
14:59:20 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:00:35 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:00:48 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
15:00:51 <adam_solomon> zakim, [IPcaller] is adam_solomon
15:00:51 <Zakim> +adam_solomon; got it
15:01:00 <AWK> ZAkim, who is on the phone?
15:01:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see AWK, Joshue (muted), adam_solomon
15:01:03 <jon_avila> jon_avila has joined #wai-wcag
15:01:24 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
15:01:44 <Joshue> ack me
15:01:55 <Zakim> + +1.571.389.aaaa
15:02:06 <Zakim> +cstrobbe
15:02:08 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #wai-wcag
15:02:27 <cstrobbe> cstrobbe has joined #wai-wcag
15:02:29 <Zakim> +??P0
15:02:35 <Zakim> +Kathy_Wahlbin
15:02:51 <jon_avila> zakim, I am aaaa
15:02:51 <Zakim> +jon_avila; got it
15:02:57 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:02:57 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:02:58 <cstrobbe> zakim, mute me
15:02:58 <Zakim> cstrobbe should now be muted
15:03:07 <AWK> ZAkim, who is on the phone?
15:03:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see AWK, Joshue (muted), adam_solomon, Marc_Johlic, jon_avila, cstrobbe (muted), Michael_Cooper, Kathy_Wahlbin
15:04:17 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
15:05:07 <Brent> Brent has joined #wai-wcag
15:05:16 <AWK> Scribe: Marc
15:05:18 <Zakim> +Brent_Shiver
15:05:23 <marcjohlic> scribe: marcjohlic
15:05:40 <AWK> Zakim, take up item one
15:05:40 <Zakim> 'one' does not match any agenda item, AWK
15:05:43 <AWK> Zakim, take up item 1
15:05:43 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Public Survey update" taken up [from AWK]
15:06:18 <Joshue> scribe list updated
15:06:25 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
15:06:28 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Shaun sent announcement to gl list that new survey is out
15:06:43 <marcjohlic> AWK:  53 responses so far - not overwhelming, but useful collection
15:06:52 <David> David has joined #wai-wcag
15:07:28 <Joshue> s/Shaun/Shawn
15:07:31 <AWK> Survey link: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1xqB54kJ7PfH8g2BWp3ww7HpXXcLhySSfE0aW1Re2gcU/viewform?usp=send_form
15:09:17 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #wai-wcag
15:09:23 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Please encourage folks to provide feedback on survey
15:09:26 <AWK> Zakim, next item
15:09:27 <Zakim> agendum 2. "TPAC reminder" taken up [from AWK]
15:09:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:09:54 <Loretta> zakim, ipcaller is Loretta
15:09:54 <Zakim> +Loretta; got it
15:09:59 <marcjohlic> AWK:  If you have not registered, and will be attending, pls register ASAP
15:10:27 <Zakim> -adam_solomon
15:10:40 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Helps the W3C planners to get the registrations in
15:11:04 <marcjohlic> MC:  Need to sort out travel logistics for Sunday meeting
15:11:16 <marcjohlic> MC:  Location, travel arrangements etc
15:11:30 <AWK> Sunday meeting is at Google
15:11:32 <marcjohlic> LG:  Meeting will be in Googleplex
15:12:01 <marcjohlic> LG:  Believe it's about 15 mins from TPAC location to Google
15:12:24 <Loretta> Christophe, there are about 25 Google buildings in this area!
15:13:00 <Joshue> MJ: Isn't today the last day before the fee increase?
15:13:31 <AWK> registration form: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2014/
15:13:48 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Fee increase after Oct 8
15:14:10 <Loretta> The address is 2375 Garcia Ave, Mountain View, CA 94043
15:15:03 <adam_solomon_> adam_solomon_ has joined #wai-wcag
15:15:07 <marcjohlic> WCAG folks currently registeted:  https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2014/registrants#WCAG
15:15:12 <AWK> Zakim, next item
15:15:12 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Survey for October 7, 2014  https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20141007Misc/" taken up [from AWK]
15:15:17 <Joshue> zakim, q?
15:15:17 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:15:25 <adam_solomon_> zakim, adam_solomon_ is adam_solomon
15:15:26 <Zakim> sorry, adam_solomon_, I do not recognize a party named 'adam_solomon_'
15:15:42 <jon_avila> Survey wasn't opened yet when I tried last week.
15:16:20 <marcjohlic> TOPIC:  2. [LC-2966] Proposal to review guidelines for language markup appropriateness
15:16:22 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:16:48 <Joshue> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:16:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see AWK, Joshue (muted), Marc_Johlic, jon_avila, cstrobbe (muted), Michael_Cooper, Kathy_Wahlbin, Brent_Shiver, David_MacDonald, Loretta, [IPcaller]
15:17:11 <Zakim> -Loretta
15:17:44 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:17:54 <Joshue> no]
15:18:03 <Loretta> zakim, IPcaller.a is Loretta
15:18:03 <Zakim> +Loretta; got it
15:18:24 <marcjohlic> RESOLUTION: Accepted as proposed
15:18:38 <marcjohlic> TOPIC:  3. [LC-2953] F55: Remove Example 3 as it's same as Example 2
15:20:17 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:21:02 <marcjohlic> LG:  Very similar examples
15:21:19 <Joshue> +q
15:21:42 <Joshue> ack me
15:21:48 <marcjohlic> MC:  Different enough to keep them separate, but not horrible to combine them.  There should be a clear benefit to any edits - not confident that there is strong enough reason to change this one.
15:22:22 <marcjohlic> JOC:  There is no alt on Ex 2 - is that part of the Failure?
15:22:52 <marcjohlic> JOC:  Just want to call out the missing alt
15:23:35 <marcjohlic> AWK:  No objection to combining them - other question would be if we have people doing localization work will something like this be worth their effort (or how often that happens)
15:24:05 <jon_avila> Don't have strong feelings either
15:24:20 <Joshue> +1 to leaving it as is
15:24:24 <marcjohlic> JOC:  OK with leaving it as is - can't see the net gain in changing it
15:24:41 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Anyone feel strongly that it should be removed?
15:24:46 <adam_solomon_> having major internet connection problems - will try to get online for lc-2954
15:24:48 <marcjohlic> no response
15:26:16 <marcjohlic> JOC:  Will write / update the response
15:26:24 <marcjohlic> +1
15:27:39 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:27:57 <marcjohlic> RESOLUTION: Accepted as amended (rejecting the suggested change)
15:28:22 <marcjohlic> TOPIC:  4. Mobile TF proposed changes to G9
15:28:27 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
15:28:50 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Sounds like folks generally like the gist of these changes
15:29:08 <marcjohlic> LG:  Some grammatical changes
15:29:29 <jon_avila> We chose webinar because we thought people could relate to it.
15:30:26 <Joshue> LC-2953 response updated.
15:30:32 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
15:30:32 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:31:04 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
15:31:15 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
15:31:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/07-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn
15:31:15 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Initially this started out as a live event that you are at personally and that the captioning was being provided to your own mobile device.  Was changed to webinar where folks could join webinar to receive captions
15:31:35 <Kathy> q+
15:31:38 <marcjohlic> MC:  Not clear how mobile device vs desktop device is different in here
15:31:50 <marcjohlic> MC:  Believe my rewording covers that
15:32:19 <Joshue> zakim, q?
15:32:19 <Zakim> I see Kathy on the speaker queue
15:32:47 <marcjohlic> AWK:  WCAG doesn't apply to a physical event but does apply to an online event
15:33:30 <Joshue> q+ to say that we do need to expand the reach of our techniques where possible to illustrate that they are useful and relevant in the mobile space
15:33:34 <Joshue> ack kathy
15:33:35 <AWK> original: A live conference is streaming audio-video webinar for remote participants using Communication Access Real-Time Translation (CART) to provide users who are Deaf or hard of hearing with speech to text translation services that can be accessed on a mobile device (this also helps on-site participants needing captioning).
15:34:38 <jamesn> q+
15:34:45 <marcjohlic> KW:  The whole idea of adding some mobile stuff to general is so that we are not desktop specific w/ our General techniques - but mobile also.  So we are trying to add some mobile specific examples in
15:34:56 <AWK> A live conference is streaming audio and video for remote participants and is using Communication Access Real-Time Translation (CART) to provide users who are Deaf or hard of hearing with speech to text translation services that can be accessed on a mobile device (this also helps on-site participants needing captioning).
15:35:39 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Don't object to that - but feels weird to have the mobile example be parenthetical - may need to weave the mobile focused example(s) in better
15:35:40 <Joshue> Interesting comment michael
15:35:56 <AWK> s/AWK:  Don't/MC:  Don't
15:37:06 <marcjohlic> MC:  OK - I didn't get from the wording that getting the captions through their mobile device was helpful
15:37:41 <marcjohlic> KW:  They might be streaming the online conference / webinar to their mobile device.  We're not saying they are using desktop and mobile device at the same time
15:37:56 <marcjohlic> JN:  Why wouldn't the captions be part of that same stream?
15:38:13 <marcjohlic> JN:  I struggle to see how it's specific to mobile
15:38:35 <marcjohlic> KW: It was just an example to show that this is something that can be done on mobile
15:39:18 <marcjohlic> KW:  We do have a lot of specific things that reference "desktop"
15:39:35 <Joshue> ack me
15:39:36 <Zakim> Joshue, you wanted to say that we do need to expand the reach of our techniques where possible to illustrate that they are useful and relevant in the mobile space
15:39:42 <jamesn> ack me
15:40:08 <AWK> A live conference is streaming audio and video for remote participants and is including captions via use of Communication Access Real-Time Translation (CART). Users can access the content on a desktop or mobile device, and this also helps on-site participants needing captioning who can view the captions for the event on their own device.
15:40:24 <AWK> q+
15:40:31 <marcjohlic> JOC:  We need to find the right tone - generic enough w/ descriptions of technologies
15:41:38 <AWK> ack me
15:42:53 <Joshue> Should we be mentioning desktop at all?
15:43:01 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Some people who caption online event they don't think about mobile devices - so with this change it's providing small bit of education to folks that captioning on mobile is important also
15:43:06 <Joshue> q+
15:43:33 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Does this change help?
15:44:06 <marcjohlic> MC:  Not trying to block moving forward - but think it's a matter of clarity of what we're trying to say..  not sure of better wording
15:44:47 <Joshue> ack me
15:44:51 <AWK> A live conference is streaming audio and video for remote participants and is including captions via use of Communication Access Real-Time Translation (CART). Users can access the content on a desktop or mobile device. An additional benefit is that this can also help on-site participants needing captioning who can view the captions for the event on their own device.
15:44:54 <marcjohlic> JN:  Split last sentence  "additional benefit
15:45:42 <marcjohlic> JN:  ONly see 2 references to "desktop" when searching
15:46:02 <marcjohlic> KW:  But there are desktop specific references throughout - such as "corner of the screen"
15:46:47 <Loretta> brb
15:46:58 <Joshue> How about "Users can access the content on any device including mobile devices,[..]
15:47:05 <jon_avila> "desktop" also appears in the Understanding documents http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/visual-audio-contrast-visual-presentation.html
15:48:30 <AWK> how about: A live conference is streaming audio and video for remote participants and is including captions via use of Communication Access Real-Time Translation (CART). An additional benefit is that this can also help on-site participants needing captioning who can view the captions for the event on their own device.
15:48:34 <marcjohlic> DM:  If we specifically call out mobile now - in 3 or 4 years it might seem out of place
15:48:52 <jamesn> +1
15:50:37 <jon_avila> q+
15:51:29 <Joshue> +1 to AWKS text but I'd like to tease out this issue a little more so we have can have some WG consensus on the approach.
15:51:57 <Joshue> ack jon
15:52:53 <AWK> ack j
15:52:53 <marcjohlic> JOC:  Comfortable with using language like AWK added - using "devices"
15:53:49 <marcjohlic> JOC:  Don't feel like you can't use "mobile" but like using generic terms to avoid dating the material
15:54:04 <AWK>  A user watches an online seminar on their mobile device, including captioning provided by the provider through the use of Communication Access Real-time Translation (CART).
15:55:12 <Joshue> zakim, q?
15:55:12 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:55:24 <Joshue> +1 to the later
15:55:42 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Folks like user-centric or event focused - or leave open?
15:55:58 <Kathy> later one
15:55:59 <Joshue> MJ: I like the later one also
15:56:37 <marcjohlic> MC:  Last one is fine
15:57:08 <marcjohlic> JOC:  Want to make sure my comments don't confuse the issue going forward
15:57:33 <AWK>  A user watches an online seminar on their mobile device, including captioning provided through the use of Communication Access Real-time Translation (CART).  The captions provided also benefit in-person participants who need captioning and can view the information on their own device.
15:57:52 <marcjohlic> KW:  Different then initial direction - these should just be small changes - want to make sure they don't all cause this much need for discussion
15:58:19 <marcjohlic> s/then/than
15:58:30 <jon_avila> q+
15:58:42 <Joshue> ack jon
15:58:42 <AWK> ack j
15:59:21 <marcjohlic> JA:  Regarding user-based example, have a concern because this technique is about creating captions - not how the user consumes them.
15:59:27 <marcjohlic> AWK :  Good point
15:59:57 <jon_avila> q-
16:00:32 <marcjohlic> RESOLUTION:  Leave open - discuss language
16:01:11 <marcjohlic> TOPIC:  1. [LC-2954] Clarify F68 is applicable for controls that use visible labels
16:02:22 <marcjohlic> AWK:  I put together an alternative approach - put it in a wiki page
16:02:22 <AWK> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Techniques/F68_edits
16:02:57 <Zakim> -Brent_Shiver
16:03:13 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
16:03:13 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
16:03:43 <David> q+
16:03:50 <AWK> ack da
16:04:09 <jon_avila> q+
16:04:13 <marcjohlic> DM:  Do we need to say anything about placeholder text - or opens another can of worms
16:04:27 <marcjohlic> AWK:  another can of worms - but we will need to talk about that another time
16:04:51 <marcjohlic> JN:  Visible text needs to match associated label - but I don't see that in here
16:05:05 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Correct - and that is why it is not a 1.3.1 technique
16:05:42 <AWK> ack j
16:06:03 <marcjohlic> JA:  Concerned that we don't have a Failure for form fields and visual labels - so we may need to add another failure
16:06:15 <marcjohlic> JN:  Hard failure to write
16:07:57 <jon_avila> q-
16:08:48 <marcjohlic> JA:  Not against this change - makes it more clear - but think we should consider additional techniques
16:13:37 <AWK> Zakim, who is noisy?
16:13:48 <Zakim> AWK, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Michael_Cooper (19%), [IPcaller] (43%), James_Nurthen (75%)
16:14:41 <David> zakim, mute ipcaller
16:14:41 <Zakim> [IPcaller] should now be muted
16:15:44 <Joshue> http://www.w3.org/TR/html-markup/input.html
16:16:49 <marcjohlic> AWK:  Do people like the general idea of this - paired w/ an add'l 1.3.1 technique to be written?
16:16:53 <marcjohlic> +1
16:17:04 <Joshue> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:17:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see AWK, Joshue (muted), Marc_Johlic, jon_avila, cstrobbe (muted), Michael_Cooper, Kathy_Wahlbin, David_MacDonald, Loretta, [IPcaller] (muted), James_Nurthen
16:17:14 <Joshue> ack me
16:17:27 <AWK> ACTION: AWK to edit https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Techniques/F68_edits based on comments from today's call
16:17:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-283 - Edit https://www.w3.org/wai/gl/wiki/techniques/f68_edits based on comments from today's call [on Andrew Kirkpatrick - due 2014-10-14].
16:17:50 <marcjohlic> RESOLUTION:  Leave open pending Action-283
16:17:55 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:18:12 <Zakim> -AWK
16:18:13 <marcjohlic> TOPIC:  5. Mobile TF proposed changes to G21
16:18:23 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/G21
16:20:37 <marcjohlic> KW:  Notes on WCAG sections (wiki page) is old - just refer to the Proposed changes
16:21:14 <marcjohlic> MC:  That's fine - wasn't clear when initially looking at what was in the wiki
16:21:19 <marcjohlic> MC:  Good with changes
16:21:32 <marcjohlic> RESOLUTION:  Accepted as proposed
16:21:47 <marcjohlic> TOPIC:  6. Mobile TF proposed changes to G78
16:21:55 <marcjohlic> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/G78
16:23:14 <marcjohlic> KW:  Again notes were just for TF reference - changes are under "Proposed" section(s)
16:25:19 <marcjohlic> JOC:  Any objections to Loretta's suggestion to make it clear that this is about controls in the content
16:27:05 <Kathy> 1.Check that the audio track that includes audio descriptions can be turned on by using a control within the content itself or by selecting a preference (such as a button to toggle audio description) in the media player @@or operating system@@.
16:29:06 <Joshue> what about "accessible via using a control within the content itself"?
16:30:45 <Joshue> "can be accessed [...]"
16:31:12 <Loretta> Check that a mechansim exists to turn on the audio track that includes audio descriptions.
16:32:15 <marcjohlic> RESOLUTION:  Leave open
16:32:25 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
16:32:28 <Zakim> -Joshue
16:32:29 <Zakim> -Loretta
16:32:30 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
16:32:31 <Zakim> -jon_avila
16:32:32 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
16:32:35 <Zakim> -Kathy_Wahlbin
16:32:41 <marcjohlic> trackbot, end meeting
16:32:41 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:32:41 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been AWK, Joshue, adam_solomon, Marc_Johlic, +1.571.389.aaaa, cstrobbe, Michael_Cooper, Kathy_Wahlbin, jon_avila, Brent_Shiver, David_MacDonald,
16:32:45 <Zakim> ... Loretta, [IPcaller], James_Nurthen
16:32:45 <Zakim> -cstrobbe
16:32:49 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:32:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/07-wai-wcag-minutes.html trackbot
16:32:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:32:50 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/07-wai-wcag-actions.rdf :
16:32:50 <RRSAgent> ACTION: AWK to edit https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Techniques/F68_edits based on comments from today's call [1]
16:32:50 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/07-wai-wcag-irc#T16-17-27