IRC log of csvw on 2014-10-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

11:41:30 [RRSAgent]

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11:41:30 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/01-csvw-irc

11:41:32 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

11:41:32 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #csvw

11:41:34 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be CSVW

11:41:34 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes

11:41:35 [trackbot]

Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference

11:41:35 [trackbot]

Date: 01 October 2014

11:41:55 [ivan]

Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-10-01

11:41:59 [ivan]

Chair: Dan

11:42:14 [ivan]

ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2014-10-01: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-10-01

11:57:45 [yakovsh]

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11:59:14 [danbri_]

danbri_ has joined #csvw

11:59:35 [Zakim]

DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has now started

11:59:41 [Zakim]

+ +1.443.650.aaaa

11:59:47 [ivan]

zakim, code?

11:59:47 [Zakim]

the conference code is 2789 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan

11:59:52 [yakovsh]

zakim, +1.443.650 is me

11:59:52 [Zakim]

+yakovsh; got it

12:00:14 [danbri_]

hi

12:00:53 [Zakim]

+Ivan

12:01:27 [phila]

phila has joined #csvw

12:01:52 [Zakim]

+ +44.207.346.aabb

12:01:56 [danbri_]

zakim, aabb is danbri

12:01:56 [Zakim]

+danbri; got it

12:02:31 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

12:02:37 [phila]

zakim, ipcaller is me

12:02:37 [Zakim]

+phila; got it

12:03:38 [danbri_]

regrets: jenit

12:03:57 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

12:04:04 [AndyS]

zakim, IPcaller is me

12:04:04 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

12:04:25 [danbri_]

zakim, who is here?

12:04:25 [Zakim]

On the phone I see yakovsh, Ivan, danbri, phila, AndyS

12:04:27 [Zakim]

On IRC I see phila, danbri_, yakovsh, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, ivan, fresco, gkellogg, trackbot

12:04:31 [jtandy]

jtandy has joined #csvw

12:04:51 [AndyS]

scribenick: AndyS

12:04:54 [danbri_]

thanks!

12:05:00 [danbri_]

jtandy, are you joining?

12:05:04 [AndyS]

scribe: AndyS

12:05:07 [Zakim]

+??P14

12:05:17 [jtandy]

zakim, P14 is me

12:05:17 [Zakim]

sorry, jtandy, I do not recognize a party named 'P14'

12:05:21 [danbri_]

topic: Review Ivan's progress on RDF and JSON mappings

12:05:28 [jtandy]

zakim, ??P14 is me

12:05:28 [Zakim]

+jtandy; got it

12:06:08 [jtandy]

Apologies - but I did read the minutes

12:06:09 [danbri_]

see thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2014Sep/0084.html

12:06:16 [AndyS]

danbri_: what is teh status? what help do you (Ivan) want?

12:06:44 [jtandy]

I agree that starting with a minimal approach is a good thing

12:06:44 [AndyS]

ivan: minimal start the add things.

12:07:09 [AndyS]

... the new doc is the minimal mapping from metadata, no templating.

12:07:35 [AndyS]

... work done in the spring. Output is RDF triples, not syntax.

12:07:44 [AndyS]

... proper way to do it for RDF.

12:08:30 [danbri_]

(sorry AndyS, typing makes ivan hard to hear!)

12:08:30 [AndyS]

... Then with minimal changes, same for JSON. Believe it is 80% JSON-LD.

12:08:45 [danbri_]

JSON-LD is here, http://w3c.github.io/csvw/csv2rdf/index-json.html

12:08:47 [AndyS]

zakim, unmute me

12:08:47 [Zakim]

AndyS should no longer be muted

12:09:16 [AndyS]

ivan: for each row, series of literal-values properties.

12:09:29 [AndyS]

... mint URI for keys.

12:09:44 [AndyS]

... metadata does not describe objects as URIs.

12:10:09 [AndyS]

... similar to "direct mapping" of RDB2RDF.

12:10:18 [danbri_]

q+ to ask how much of the input metadata gets added to the output - configurable? defaults?

12:10:27 [AndyS]

... JSON same style, one row => one object

12:11:04 [AndyS]

... datatypes used from metadata.

12:11:40 [danbri_]

q?

12:11:43 [danbri_]

q-

12:11:59 [jtandy]

q+

12:12:00 [AndyS]

... row number added to each row and some top-level DC (schema.org?) as global triples. Pass through.

12:13:03 [AndyS]

... not handled : local template for a column (object) and ditto predicates.

12:13:22 [AndyS]

... issues in the document

12:14:05 [danbri_]

q+ to propose "No mapping is defined, in the absence of column names within file or external metadata"

12:14:10 [AndyS]

... one issue ignored, can have no column names (a lot of metadata is optional).

12:14:27 [AndyS]

... more for the metadata work.

12:14:41 [danbri_]

q?

12:15:46 [AndyS]

... one use of output is feed into a later xform named in metadata.

12:16:04 [AndyS]

... for JSON, unclear as to best tool to name here.

12:16:14 [AndyS]

... for XMl, XSLT (XQuery?)

12:16:41 [AndyS]

... personally, not decided as to whether this is the approach to follow.

12:16:57 [danbri_]

ack jtandy

12:17:52 [AndyS]

jtandy: Made sense. Will work on a real case for the F2F.

12:18:05 [AndyS]

... compound keys not covered.

12:18:25 [AndyS]

... assigning identifiers from other columns

12:18:31 [yakovsh]

q+

12:18:33 [AndyS]

... URI templates

12:19:05 [AndyS]

ivan: primary key of several cols is in the dc as the concat with "-"

12:19:40 [AndyS]

... if you want a specific form for row or col, assuming a template.

12:21:13 [AndyS]

jtandy: if we can stick to simple URIs (??), then using URI template (RFC).

12:21:47 [danbri_]

ack me

12:21:47 [Zakim]

danbri_, you wanted to propose "No mapping is defined, in the absence of column names within file or external metadata"

12:21:48 [AndyS]

ivan: just add issues to the doc.

12:22:13 [AndyS]

danbri_: suggest - if no cols, then no mapping.

12:23:06 [jtandy]

q+ to ask if there is a minimum metadata requirement ... column headings _either_ in the csv _or_ in the metadata?

12:23:15 [AndyS]

ivan: suggestion is "col_1", "col_2", ...

12:23:25 [AndyS]

danbri_: project tables from tables

12:23:41 [AndyS]

... needs col names to be given.

12:23:53 [danbri_]

q?

12:23:58 [danbri_]

ack yakovsh

12:24:01 [yakovsh]

http://tc39wiki.calculist.org/es6/template-strings/

12:24:20 [AndyS]

yakovsh: javascript will have a templating language built-in.

12:24:32 [AndyS]

... early next year

12:25:10 [AndyS]

ivan: But for python, CSV->JSON->Python->

12:25:41 [danbri_]

q?

12:25:47 [danbri_]

ack jtandy

12:25:47 [Zakim]

jtandy, you wanted to ask if there is a minimum metadata requirement ... column headings _either_ in the csv _or_ in the metadata?

12:26:18 [phila]

q+

12:26:28 [AndyS]

jtandy: Starting from min approach is fine, maybe have templating as second pass.

12:26:46 [AndyS]

... state a min as some source of column names (several choices).

12:26:56 [danbri_]

ThrowUhUhException()

12:27:11 [danbri_]

q?

12:27:14 [phila]

ack me

12:27:52 [AndyS]

phila: If 80% cover from direct of the UC, then good.

12:28:30 [AndyS]

... would it be possible to say, a preprocess step (c.f. second pass)?

12:28:52 [AndyS]

... want to see URI templating

12:29:27 [AndyS]

... should check the UC against the proposed solution.

12:29:51 [AndyS]

ivan: How to spec that (processing chain) properly?

12:30:28 [danbri_]

q+

12:31:42 [AndyS]

danbri_: (1) processing chain - lots of different possibilities - not for us to dictate this set. We need to write it down.

12:32:03 [AndyS]

... record the chain in the metadata

12:32:26 [danbri_]

q?

12:32:32 [AndyS]

... (2) ?

12:32:58 [AndyS]

danbri_: Ivan, what do you us to do with this in the next 3 weeks and at F2F?

12:33:20 [AndyS]

ivan: Jeremy's plan (worked UC) is very useful

12:33:41 [danbri_]

rrsagent, pointer?

12:33:41 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2014/10/01-csvw-irc#T12-33-41

12:34:21 [AndyS]

... an implementation would be good.

12:34:46 [AndyS]

... not ready to do the same for XML.

12:35:41 [jtandy]

q+

12:35:41 [AndyS]

.. don't want to be the champion for this. Not the only editor. Can contribute.

12:35:47 [danbri_]

ack me

12:36:03 [JeniT]

JeniT has joined #csvw

12:36:20 [AndyS]

... good to check the JSON structure is JSON-LD == RDF if @context added.

12:37:04 [phila]

Gregg is indeed registered for the f2f at TPAC

12:37:23 [danbri_]

action: danbri take a look at json-ld assuming very naive @context file

12:37:24 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-31 - Take a look at json-ld assuming very naive @context file [on Dan Brickley - due 2014-10-08].

12:37:24 [AndyS]

ivan: @context is complicated

12:37:37 [AndyS]

... whether it can handle things is unclear to me.

12:37:56 [danbri_]

q?

12:37:56 [phila]

q+

12:38:20 [AndyS]

jtandy: I offer to contribute to direct mapping.

12:38:40 [phila]

Erik Mannens, Axel Polleres, William Ingram

12:38:46 [danbri_]

ack jtandy

12:38:58 [AndyS]

phila: people at F2F above.

12:38:58 [danbri_]

ack phila

12:39:18 [AndyS]

... maybe some capacity here.

12:41:47 [danbri_]

q?

12:42:02 [AndyS]

danbri_: anything else on Ivan's doc?

12:43:10 [AndyS]

ivan: avoided @graph usage needed for a graph, not tree.

12:44:14 [ivan]

{ ... "rows" : [ {row1},{row2} ] }

12:46:25 [danbri_]

topic: (continued) Which metadata vocabulary/ies should we be using? (DC, schema.org, ...)

12:46:48 [AndyS]

danbri_: Not sure what we can do this week on this.

12:47:12 [AndyS]

... W3C has a problem with refs to non-standards orgs.

12:47:24 [AndyS]

... for mailing list and F2F.

12:47:51 [jtandy]

JeniT noted that the data on the web best practice group is recommending metadata vocabs; we need to be aligned.

12:48:39 [AndyS]

ivan: Still an issue because normative refs means mandatory but some people use Dublin Core. And other vocabs.

12:49:19 [AndyS]

Surely this is the point of a standard?

12:49:41 [phila]

q+ to agree with everyone else and...

12:49:57 [AndyS]

danbri_: avoid disruption.

12:50:33 [AndyS]

... will go to email.

12:50:40 [phila]

ack me

12:50:40 [Zakim]

phila, you wanted to agree with everyone else and...

12:50:41 [danbri_]

q?

12:51:12 [AndyS]

phila: agree and wonder whether data shapes work helps here.

12:51:21 [danbri_]

(AndyS - yeah, the question is what level to standardize at... e.g. triples, use cases, specific vocabs, or [per Phil's point] specific graph patterns)

12:52:52 [AndyS]

phila: DCAT? A W3C std.

12:52:53 [danbri_]

http://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-dcat/

12:54:06 [danbri_]

q?

12:54:40 [AndyS]

danbri: how about DCAT + owl:equivalent?

12:55:07 [AndyS]

It's too rigid.

12:55:41 [danbri_]

q?

12:56:04 [AndyS]

topic: F2F planning

12:56:15 [AndyS]

ivan: agenda needed

12:58:10 [danbri_]

AndyS: issue-centric discussions often more affective

12:58:19 [danbri_]

esp when non-telecon-attendees are joining

12:58:22 [jtandy]

agree with AndyS to focus on specific issues ... with outcome as being "we decided X Y Z"

12:59:33 [AndyS]

ADJOURNED

12:59:35 [Zakim]

-phila

12:59:37 [Zakim]

-danbri

12:59:37 [Zakim]

-jtandy

12:59:38 [Zakim]

-Ivan

12:59:40 [Zakim]

-AndyS

12:59:51 [danbri_]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

12:59:51 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/01-csvw-minutes.html danbri_

13:00:03 [Zakim]

-yakovsh

13:00:04 [Zakim]

DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has ended

13:00:04 [Zakim]

Attendees were +1.443.650.aaaa, yakovsh, Ivan, +44.207.346.aabb, danbri, phila, AndyS, jtandy

13:03:03 [ivan]

trackbot, end telcon

13:03:03 [trackbot]

Zakim, list attendees

13:03:05 [Zakim]

sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is

13:03:11 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

13:03:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/01-csvw-minutes.html trackbot

13:03:12 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, bye

13:03:12 [RRSAgent]

I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/01-csvw-actions.rdf :

13:03:12 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: danbri take a look at json-ld assuming very naive @context file [1]

13:03:12 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/10/01-csvw-irc#T12-37-23