IRC log of csvw on 2014-10-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

11:41:30 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #csvw
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logging to
11:41:32 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
11:41:32 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #csvw
11:41:34 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be CSVW
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ok, trackbot; I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
11:41:35 [trackbot]
Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference
11:41:35 [trackbot]
Date: 01 October 2014
11:41:55 [ivan]
11:41:59 [ivan]
Chair: Dan
11:42:14 [ivan]
ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2014-10-01:
11:57:45 [yakovsh]
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11:59:14 [danbri_]
danbri_ has joined #csvw
11:59:35 [Zakim]
DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has now started
11:59:41 [Zakim]
+ +1.443.650.aaaa
11:59:47 [ivan]
zakim, code?
11:59:47 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2789 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, ivan
11:59:52 [yakovsh]
zakim, +1.443.650 is me
11:59:52 [Zakim]
+yakovsh; got it
12:00:14 [danbri_]
12:00:53 [Zakim]
12:01:27 [phila]
phila has joined #csvw
12:01:52 [Zakim]
+ +44.207.346.aabb
12:01:56 [danbri_]
zakim, aabb is danbri
12:01:56 [Zakim]
+danbri; got it
12:02:31 [Zakim]
12:02:37 [phila]
zakim, ipcaller is me
12:02:37 [Zakim]
+phila; got it
12:03:38 [danbri_]
regrets: jenit
12:03:57 [Zakim]
12:04:04 [AndyS]
zakim, IPcaller is me
12:04:04 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
12:04:25 [danbri_]
zakim, who is here?
12:04:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see yakovsh, Ivan, danbri, phila, AndyS
12:04:27 [Zakim]
On IRC I see phila, danbri_, yakovsh, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, ivan, fresco, gkellogg, trackbot
12:04:31 [jtandy]
jtandy has joined #csvw
12:04:51 [AndyS]
scribenick: AndyS
12:04:54 [danbri_]
12:05:00 [danbri_]
jtandy, are you joining?
12:05:04 [AndyS]
scribe: AndyS
12:05:07 [Zakim]
12:05:17 [jtandy]
zakim, P14 is me
12:05:17 [Zakim]
sorry, jtandy, I do not recognize a party named 'P14'
12:05:21 [danbri_]
topic: Review Ivan's progress on RDF and JSON mappings
12:05:28 [jtandy]
zakim, ??P14 is me
12:05:28 [Zakim]
+jtandy; got it
12:06:08 [jtandy]
Apologies - but I did read the minutes
12:06:09 [danbri_]
see thread:
12:06:16 [AndyS]
danbri_: what is teh status? what help do you (Ivan) want?
12:06:44 [jtandy]
I agree that starting with a minimal approach is a good thing
12:06:44 [AndyS]
ivan: minimal start the add things.
12:07:09 [AndyS]
... the new doc is the minimal mapping from metadata, no templating.
12:07:35 [AndyS]
... work done in the spring. Output is RDF triples, not syntax.
12:07:44 [AndyS]
... proper way to do it for RDF.
12:08:30 [danbri_]
(sorry AndyS, typing makes ivan hard to hear!)
12:08:30 [AndyS]
... Then with minimal changes, same for JSON. Believe it is 80% JSON-LD.
12:08:45 [danbri_]
JSON-LD is here,
12:08:47 [AndyS]
zakim, unmute me
12:08:47 [Zakim]
AndyS should no longer be muted
12:09:16 [AndyS]
ivan: for each row, series of literal-values properties.
12:09:29 [AndyS]
... mint URI for keys.
12:09:44 [AndyS]
... metadata does not describe objects as URIs.
12:10:09 [AndyS]
... similar to "direct mapping" of RDB2RDF.
12:10:18 [danbri_]
q+ to ask how much of the input metadata gets added to the output - configurable? defaults?
12:10:27 [AndyS]
... JSON same style, one row => one object
12:11:04 [AndyS]
... datatypes used from metadata.
12:11:40 [danbri_]
12:11:43 [danbri_]
12:11:59 [jtandy]
12:12:00 [AndyS]
... row number added to each row and some top-level DC ( as global triples. Pass through.
12:13:03 [AndyS]
... not handled : local template for a column (object) and ditto predicates.
12:13:22 [AndyS]
... issues in the document
12:14:05 [danbri_]
q+ to propose "No mapping is defined, in the absence of column names within file or external metadata"
12:14:10 [AndyS]
... one issue ignored, can have no column names (a lot of metadata is optional).
12:14:27 [AndyS]
... more for the metadata work.
12:14:41 [danbri_]
12:15:46 [AndyS]
... one use of output is feed into a later xform named in metadata.
12:16:04 [AndyS]
... for JSON, unclear as to best tool to name here.
12:16:14 [AndyS]
... for XMl, XSLT (XQuery?)
12:16:41 [AndyS]
... personally, not decided as to whether this is the approach to follow.
12:16:57 [danbri_]
ack jtandy
12:17:52 [AndyS]
jtandy: Made sense. Will work on a real case for the F2F.
12:18:05 [AndyS]
... compound keys not covered.
12:18:25 [AndyS]
... assigning identifiers from other columns
12:18:31 [yakovsh]
12:18:33 [AndyS]
... URI templates
12:19:05 [AndyS]
ivan: primary key of several cols is in the dc as the concat with "-"
12:19:40 [AndyS]
... if you want a specific form for row or col, assuming a template.
12:21:13 [AndyS]
jtandy: if we can stick to simple URIs (??), then using URI template (RFC).
12:21:47 [danbri_]
ack me
12:21:47 [Zakim]
danbri_, you wanted to propose "No mapping is defined, in the absence of column names within file or external metadata"
12:21:48 [AndyS]
ivan: just add issues to the doc.
12:22:13 [AndyS]
danbri_: suggest - if no cols, then no mapping.
12:23:06 [jtandy]
q+ to ask if there is a minimum metadata requirement ... column headings _either_ in the csv _or_ in the metadata?
12:23:15 [AndyS]
ivan: suggestion is "col_1", "col_2", ...
12:23:25 [AndyS]
danbri_: project tables from tables
12:23:41 [AndyS]
... needs col names to be given.
12:23:53 [danbri_]
12:23:58 [danbri_]
ack yakovsh
12:24:01 [yakovsh]
12:24:20 [AndyS]
yakovsh: javascript will have a templating language built-in.
12:24:32 [AndyS]
... early next year
12:25:10 [AndyS]
ivan: But for python, CSV->JSON->Python->
12:25:41 [danbri_]
12:25:47 [danbri_]
ack jtandy
12:25:47 [Zakim]
jtandy, you wanted to ask if there is a minimum metadata requirement ... column headings _either_ in the csv _or_ in the metadata?
12:26:18 [phila]
12:26:28 [AndyS]
jtandy: Starting from min approach is fine, maybe have templating as second pass.
12:26:46 [AndyS]
... state a min as some source of column names (several choices).
12:26:56 [danbri_]
12:27:11 [danbri_]
12:27:14 [phila]
ack me
12:27:52 [AndyS]
phila: If 80% cover from direct of the UC, then good.
12:28:30 [AndyS]
... would it be possible to say, a preprocess step (c.f. second pass)?
12:28:52 [AndyS]
... want to see URI templating
12:29:27 [AndyS]
... should check the UC against the proposed solution.
12:29:51 [AndyS]
ivan: How to spec that (processing chain) properly?
12:30:28 [danbri_]
12:31:42 [AndyS]
danbri_: (1) processing chain - lots of different possibilities - not for us to dictate this set. We need to write it down.
12:32:03 [AndyS]
... record the chain in the metadata
12:32:26 [danbri_]
12:32:32 [AndyS]
... (2) ?
12:32:58 [AndyS]
danbri_: Ivan, what do you us to do with this in the next 3 weeks and at F2F?
12:33:20 [AndyS]
ivan: Jeremy's plan (worked UC) is very useful
12:33:41 [danbri_]
rrsagent, pointer?
12:33:41 [RRSAgent]
12:34:21 [AndyS]
... an implementation would be good.
12:34:46 [AndyS]
... not ready to do the same for XML.
12:35:41 [jtandy]
12:35:41 [AndyS]
.. don't want to be the champion for this. Not the only editor. Can contribute.
12:35:47 [danbri_]
ack me
12:36:03 [JeniT]
JeniT has joined #csvw
12:36:20 [AndyS]
... good to check the JSON structure is JSON-LD == RDF if @context added.
12:37:04 [phila]
Gregg is indeed registered for the f2f at TPAC
12:37:23 [danbri_]
action: danbri take a look at json-ld assuming very naive @context file
12:37:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-31 - Take a look at json-ld assuming very naive @context file [on Dan Brickley - due 2014-10-08].
12:37:24 [AndyS]
ivan: @context is complicated
12:37:37 [AndyS]
... whether it can handle things is unclear to me.
12:37:56 [danbri_]
12:37:56 [phila]
12:38:20 [AndyS]
jtandy: I offer to contribute to direct mapping.
12:38:40 [phila]
Erik Mannens, Axel Polleres, William Ingram
12:38:46 [danbri_]
ack jtandy
12:38:58 [AndyS]
phila: people at F2F above.
12:38:58 [danbri_]
ack phila
12:39:18 [AndyS]
... maybe some capacity here.
12:41:47 [danbri_]
12:42:02 [AndyS]
danbri_: anything else on Ivan's doc?
12:43:10 [AndyS]
ivan: avoided @graph usage needed for a graph, not tree.
12:44:14 [ivan]
{ ... "rows" : [ {row1},{row2} ] }
12:46:25 [danbri_]
topic: (continued) Which metadata vocabulary/ies should we be using? (DC,, ...)
12:46:48 [AndyS]
danbri_: Not sure what we can do this week on this.
12:47:12 [AndyS]
... W3C has a problem with refs to non-standards orgs.
12:47:24 [AndyS]
... for mailing list and F2F.
12:47:51 [jtandy]
JeniT noted that the data on the web best practice group is recommending metadata vocabs; we need to be aligned.
12:48:39 [AndyS]
ivan: Still an issue because normative refs means mandatory but some people use Dublin Core. And other vocabs.
12:49:19 [AndyS]
Surely this is the point of a standard?
12:49:41 [phila]
q+ to agree with everyone else and...
12:49:57 [AndyS]
danbri_: avoid disruption.
12:50:33 [AndyS]
... will go to email.
12:50:40 [phila]
ack me
12:50:40 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to agree with everyone else and...
12:50:41 [danbri_]
12:51:12 [AndyS]
phila: agree and wonder whether data shapes work helps here.
12:51:21 [danbri_]
(AndyS - yeah, the question is what level to standardize at... e.g. triples, use cases, specific vocabs, or [per Phil's point] specific graph patterns)
12:52:52 [AndyS]
phila: DCAT? A W3C std.
12:52:53 [danbri_]
12:54:06 [danbri_]
12:54:40 [AndyS]
danbri: how about DCAT + owl:equivalent?
12:55:07 [AndyS]
It's too rigid.
12:55:41 [danbri_]
12:56:04 [AndyS]
topic: F2F planning
12:56:15 [AndyS]
ivan: agenda needed
12:58:10 [danbri_]
AndyS: issue-centric discussions often more affective
12:58:19 [danbri_]
esp when non-telecon-attendees are joining
12:58:22 [jtandy]
agree with AndyS to focus on specific issues ... with outcome as being "we decided X Y Z"
12:59:33 [AndyS]
12:59:35 [Zakim]
12:59:37 [Zakim]
12:59:37 [Zakim]
12:59:38 [Zakim]
12:59:40 [Zakim]
12:59:51 [danbri_]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
12:59:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate danbri_
13:00:03 [Zakim]
13:00:04 [Zakim]
DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has ended
13:00:04 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.443.650.aaaa, yakovsh, Ivan, +44.207.346.aabb, danbri, phila, AndyS, jtandy
13:03:03 [ivan]
trackbot, end telcon
13:03:03 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
13:03:05 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
13:03:11 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
13:03:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
13:03:12 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
13:03:12 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
13:03:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: danbri take a look at json-ld assuming very naive @context file [1]
13:03:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in