IRC log of annotation on 2014-10-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:24:39 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #annotation
14:24:39 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/01-annotation-irc
14:24:41 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
14:24:41 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #annotation
14:24:43 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 2666
14:24:43 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_(ANNO)11:00AM scheduled to start in 36 minutes
14:24:44 [trackbot]: Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
14:24:44 [trackbot]: Date: 01 October 2014
14:26:08 [ivan]: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/848CF92E-9F79-4B81-BBC4-86A37E747B8B@fjhirsch.com
14:26:48 [ivan]: ivan has changed the topic to: Code 2666, Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2014Sep/0075.html
14:26:53 [ivan]: Chair: Frederick
14:47:29 [fjh]: fjh has joined #annotation
14:47:58 [MGU]: MGU has joined #annotation
14:48:38 [fjh]: fjh has changed the topic to: Code 2666, Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2014Sep/0075.html
14:48:59 [fjh]: trackbot, start telecon
14:49:01 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
14:49:03 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 2666
14:49:03 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_(ANNO)11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
14:49:04 [trackbot]: Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
14:49:04 [trackbot]: Date: 01 October 2014
14:49:17 [fjh]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2014Sep/0075.html
14:49:26 [fjh]: Chair: Rob_Sanderson, Frederick_Hirsch
14:49:38 [fjh]: Present+ Rob_Sanderson, Frederick_Hirsch
14:51:29 [Zakim]: DPUB_(ANNO)11:00AM has now started
14:51:35 [Zakim]: +??P1
14:52:18 [mgylling]: mgylling has joined #annotation
14:54:32 [MGU]: zakim, ??P1 maybe MGU
14:54:32 [Zakim]: I don't understand '??P1 maybe MGU', MGU
14:54:49 [ivan]: zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:54:49 [Zakim]: ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:54:51 [Zakim]: +Ivan
14:55:11 [MGU]: zakim, ??P1 is MGU
14:55:11 [Zakim]: +MGU; got it
14:55:26 [Zakim]: +??P2
14:55:50 [Zakim]: -??P2
14:56:03 [paoloC]: paoloC has joined #annotation
14:56:43 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
14:56:46 [fjh]: zakim, ipcaller is me
14:56:46 [Zakim]: +fjh; got it
14:56:55 [fjh]: zakim, who is here?
14:56:55 [Zakim]: On the phone I see MGU, Ivan, fjh
14:56:57 [Zakim]: On IRC I see paoloC, mgylling, MGU, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, nickstenn, ivan, KevinMarks, MarkS, dwhly, bigbluehat, tripu, Mitar, JakeHart, stain, trackbot
14:57:04 [ivan]: Present+ Ivan Herman
14:57:34 [MGU]: I am
14:57:44 [Zakim]: +Markus
14:57:49 [bigbluehat]: Present+ Benjamin Young
14:58:02 [bigbluehat]: dwhly: mind sharing when you find it? :)
14:58:28 [Zakim]: +Stephane
14:58:49 [dauwhe]: dauwhe has joined #annotation
14:58:55 [Matt_Haas]: Matt_Haas has joined #annotation
14:58:55 [Zakim]: +[Ugent]
14:59:00 [dwhly]: bigbluehat: +1.617.761.6200.
14:59:02 [bjdmeest]: bjdmeest has joined #annotation
14:59:30 [bigbluehat]: dwhly: your the best! :)
14:59:30 [bigbluehat]: tnx
14:59:36 [bigbluehat]: mgylling: hangry?
14:59:36 [bjdmeest]: zakim, who is here?
14:59:36 [Zakim]: On the phone I see MGU, Ivan, fjh, Markus, Stephane, [Ugent]
14:59:38 [Zakim]: On IRC I see bjdmeest, Matt_Haas, dauwhe, paoloC, mgylling, MGU, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, nickstenn, ivan, KevinMarks, MarkS, dwhly, bigbluehat, tripu, Mitar, JakeHart, stain,
14:59:38 [Zakim]: ... trackbot
14:59:40 [Zakim]: -Stephane
14:59:43 [Zakim]: +dwhly
14:59:46 [bjdmeest]: zakim, Ugent is me
14:59:47 [Zakim]: +bjdmeest; got it
14:59:51 [Bill_Kasdorf]: Bill_Kasdorf has joined #annotation
14:59:58 [Zakim]: +dauwhe
14:59:58 [bjdmeest]: zakim, mute me
14:59:58 [Zakim]: bjdmeest should now be muted
15:00:02 [Zakim]: +Bill_Kasdorf
15:00:15 [Zakim]: +azaroth
15:00:39 [Zakim]: +Kyrce
15:00:54 [Zakim]: +Matt_Haas
15:01:16 [Kyrce]: Kyrce has joined #annotation
15:01:21 [Zakim]: + +49.622.158.6.aaaa
15:01:27 [Zakim]: +unknown
15:02:03 [azaroth]: azaroth has joined #annotation
15:02:13 [azaroth]: Present+ Rob_Sanderson
15:02:15 [Matt_Haas]: +Matt_Haas on the 717.635.9629 phone number
15:02:20 [rayd]: rayd has joined #annotation
15:02:22 [dwhly]: Present+ Dan_Whaley
15:02:27 [paoloC]: Present+ Paolo_Ciccarese
15:02:31 [csillag]: csillag has joined #annotation
15:02:32 [csillag_]: csillag_ has joined #annotation
15:02:42 [ivan]: zakim, 9629 is Matt_Haas
15:02:42 [Zakim]: sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named '9629'
15:02:42 [MGU]: Present+Maxence Guesdon
15:02:56 [fjh]: Present+ Maxence_Guesdon
15:02:58 [ivan]: zakim, who is here?
15:02:58 [Zakim]: On the phone I see MGU, Ivan, fjh, Markus, bjdmeest (muted), dwhly, dauwhe, Bill_Kasdorf, azaroth, Kyrce, Matt_Haas, +49.622.158.6.aaaa, unknown
15:03:01 [Zakim]: On IRC I see csillag, rayd, azaroth, Kyrce, Bill_Kasdorf, bjdmeest, Matt_Haas, dauwhe, paoloC, mgylling, MGU, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, nickstenn, ivan, KevinMarks, MarkS, dwhly,
15:03:01 [Zakim]: ... bigbluehat, tripu, Mitar, JakeHart, stain, trackbot
15:03:03 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:03:04 [fjh]: s/Present+Maxence Guesdon//
15:03:10 [nickstenn]: Zakim, ipcaller is me
15:03:10 [Zakim]: +nickstenn; got it
15:03:13 [nickstenn]: Zakim, mute me
15:03:13 [Zakim]: nickstenn should now be muted
15:03:22 [fjh]: zakim, who is here?
15:03:23 [Zakim]: On the phone I see MGU, Ivan, fjh, Markus, bjdmeest (muted), dwhly, dauwhe, Bill_Kasdorf, azaroth, Kyrce, Matt_Haas, +49.622.158.6.aaaa, unknown, nickstenn (muted)
15:03:23 [Zakim]: On IRC I see csillag, rayd, azaroth, Kyrce, Bill_Kasdorf, bjdmeest, Matt_Haas, dauwhe, paoloC, mgylling, MGU, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, nickstenn, ivan, KevinMarks, MarkS, dwhly,
15:03:23 [Zakim]: ... bigbluehat, tripu, Mitar, JakeHart, stain, trackbot
15:03:27 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:03:42 [ivan]: scribenick: nickstenn
15:03:51 [Zakim]: +bigbluehat
15:04:05 [csillag]: Dear all, what is the relationship between the audio channel and this IRC channel?
15:04:07 [fjh]: Topic: Agenda Review, Announcement
15:04:16 [fjh]: zakim, who is making noise?
15:04:25 [Zakim]: +rayd
15:04:27 [Zakim]: fjh, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MGU (15%), Bill_Kasdorf (5%), azaroth (7%)
15:04:27 [azaroth]: zakim, who is making noise?
15:04:31 [TimCole]: TimCole has joined #annotation
15:04:39 [Zakim]: azaroth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bill_Kasdorf (4%), azaroth (4%), [IPcaller] (96%)
15:04:50 [bigbluehat]: wow...that features worth all this setup time :)
15:05:05 [csillag]: ivan, I would like to know more about the roles of the two channels: IRC and audio. Is IRC enough? Or is meaningful information being exchanged over Audio? What's the role of IRC then?
15:05:20 [azaroth]: csillag: The IRC is mostly a record of what happens on the call
15:05:20 [Jacob]: Jacob has joined #annotation
15:05:24 [bigbluehat]: no worries! this is no slower than all the other telcos I've ever been on :)
15:05:32 [dwhly]: csillag: most of the information is audio
15:05:37 [fjh]: zakim, who is here?
15:05:38 [Zakim]: On the phone I see MGU, Ivan, fjh, Markus, bjdmeest (muted), dwhly, dauwhe, Bill_Kasdorf, azaroth, Kyrce, Matt_Haas, +49.622.158.6.aaaa, unknown, nickstenn (muted), [IPcaller],
15:05:38 [Zakim]: ... bigbluehat, rayd
15:05:39 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Jacob, TimCole, csillag, rayd, azaroth, Kyrce, Bill_Kasdorf, bjdmeest, Matt_Haas, dauwhe, paoloC, mgylling, MGU, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, nickstenn, ivan, KevinMarks,
15:05:39 [Zakim]: ... MarkS, dwhly, bigbluehat, tripu, Mitar, JakeHart, stain, trackbot
15:05:39 [Zakim]: + +1.217.300.aabb
15:05:40 [azaroth]: and for making notes, taking "votes" and so on
15:05:45 [scharf]: scharf has joined #annotation
15:05:51 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller.a]
15:06:09 [nickstenn]: fjh: TPAC is coming up -- deadline Oct 8th
15:06:15 [tilgovi]: tilgovi has joined #annotation
15:06:20 [nickstenn]: ... make sure you've made arrangements
15:06:38 [nickstenn]: ... have also sent out a notice about an upcoming privacy workshop that may be of interest to this group
15:06:45 [fjh]: privacy workshop notice http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2014Sep/0072.html
15:06:45 [TimCole]: Tim Cole and Jacob Jett are 217
15:06:53 [Zakim]: + +36.2.020.7.aacc
15:06:56 [fjh]: Topic: Tools
15:06:58 [scharf]: I dialed in from Germany -- Michael Scharf
15:07:00 [ivan]: zakim, aabb is TimCole
15:07:01 [Zakim]: +TimCole; got it
15:07:04 [Gerben]: Gerben has joined #annotation
15:07:06 [csillag]: I just dialed in from Hungary.
15:07:07 [ivan]: zakim, TimCole has Jacob
15:07:07 [Zakim]: +Jacob; got it
15:07:18 [nickstenn]: fjh: i think we decided on the list to use GitHub for issue tracking
15:07:32 [nickstenn]: ... but there are questions about how to get notifications on the list
15:07:32 [bigbluehat]: Zapier.com + mailing list posting?
15:07:38 [dwhly]: zakim aacc is csillag
15:07:40 [bigbluehat]: Webhooks (broadly)
15:07:43 [nickstenn]: ... any suggestions for how to do this?
15:07:50 [ivan]: zakim, aacc is chillag
15:07:50 [Zakim]: +chillag; got it
15:07:55 [ivan]: s/chillag/csillag/
15:08:00 [bigbluehat]: +1
15:08:03 [ivan]: +1
15:08:07 [Jacob]: +1
15:08:45 [fjh]: proposed RESOLUTION: use github for issues tracking, assuming we will get notices to public list working later
15:08:56 [nickstenn]: ivan: if you have a good trick for this, let me know off-list
15:09:00 [ivan]: RESOLUTION: use github for issues tracking, assuming we will get notices to public list working later
15:09:01 [nickstenn]: RESOLUTION: use github for issues tracking, assuming we will get notices to public list working later
15:09:12 [fjh]: proposed RESOLUTION: use tracker for actions
15:09:20 [ivan]: +1
15:09:24 [nickstenn]: RESOLUTION: use tracker for actions
15:10:02 [fjh]: we may use tracker to capture issues quickly during a call but will then use github for full issue tracking
15:10:19 [nickstenn]: Zakim, who is making noise?
15:10:30 [Zakim]: nickstenn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fjh (24%), azaroth (9%), [IPcaller] (93%)
15:10:38 [fjh]: Topic: Minutes approval
15:10:39 [nickstenn]: Zakim, mute ipcaller
15:10:39 [Zakim]: [IPcaller] should now be muted
15:10:48 [fjh]: proposed RESOLUTION: Minutes from 24 Sept 2014 approved, http://www.w3.org/2014/09/24-annotation-minutes.html
15:11:00 [nickstenn]: RESOLUTION: Minutes from 24 Sept 2014 approved, http://www.w3.org/2014/09/24-annotation-minutes.html
15:11:31 [azaroth]: http://www.slideshare.net/azaroth42/open-annotation-core-data-model-tutorial
15:11:46 [fjh]: Topic: Data Model review
15:11:49 [nickstenn]: fjh: if you want an issue created, put it in irc with "issue: ..."
15:11:55 [fjh]: http://www.slideshare.net/azaroth42/open-annotation-core-data-model-tutorial
15:11:56 [fjh]: Highlight known issues, WG members indicate additional issues, discuss
15:12:15 [Zakim]: + +1.914.980.aadd
15:12:16 [nickstenn]: azaroth: not everyone has come from the community group so we're going to work through the data model and review people's questions and concerns
15:12:38 [tilgovi]: tilgovi
15:12:39 [nickstenn]: ... link in IRC is a slideshare presentation about the core data model
15:12:50 [nickstenn]: ... please shout if you have questions as we go through this
15:12:52 [ivan]: zakim, aadd is tilgovi
15:12:52 [Zakim]: +tilgovi; got it
15:12:58 [nickstenn]: ... first slide: what is annotation?
15:13:11 [nickstenn]: ... one of the issues we had in the community group: how to define what an annotation is?
15:13:30 [nickstenn]: ... Annotation: a set of connected resources, typically including a body and target
15:14:26 [nickstenn]: ... examples use cases: as aide-memoire, share, improve discovery, organise, interact with other people, being a creator (e.g. editor) or moderator ... over the linked resources
15:14:33 [nickstenn]: s/examples/example/
15:14:42 [nickstenn]: ... that's the baseline scope that was considered in the CG
15:15:11 [fjh]: slide 4 core data model
15:15:24 [nickstenn]: ... which resulted in our baseline model for annotations: a separation of the annotation, which encapsulates the linkage between body and target
15:15:40 [nickstenn]: ... a freq question is "how do I give the relationship between body and target?"
15:15:52 [nickstenn]: ... we don't want to reinvent RDF
15:15:58 [fjh]: slide 5
15:16:06 [fjh]: now slide 6
15:16:25 [Zakim]: -[IPcaller.a]
15:16:31 [nickstenn]: ... example here on slide 6 --- a video about a Hubble Deep Field image
15:16:47 [nickstenn]: ... [the body is implicitly related to the target]
15:16:53 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller.a]
15:17:08 [nickstenn]: ... we're on slide 8
15:17:19 [bigbluehat]: this deck, yes? http://www.slideshare.net/azaroth42/open-annotation-core-data-model-tutorial
15:17:39 [nickstenn]: ... useful to know the general type of body and target
15:17:52 [bigbluehat]: dwhly: just wanted that in the logs :)
15:17:58 [nickstenn]: ... e.g. body is text serves as a hint to viewer about how to render the annotation
15:18:07 [bigbluehat]: heh...missed it earlier...my bad
15:18:11 [nickstenn]: ... versus audio, video, etc.
15:18:20 [nickstenn]: ... also useful to know the media type
15:18:25 [fjh]: s/heh...missed it earlier...my bad//
15:18:25 [JakeHart]: JakeHart is IPcaller.a
15:18:34 [nickstenn]: ... which might be codec, etc.
15:18:40 [dwhly]: zakim, JakeHart is IPcaller.a
15:18:40 [Zakim]: sorry, dwhly, I do not recognize a party named 'JakeHart'
15:18:50 [fjh]: zakim, IPcaller.a is JakeHart
15:18:50 [Zakim]: +JakeHart; got it
15:18:51 [nickstenn]: ... recommendation to use Dublin Core tyupes vocab
15:19:00 [nickstenn]: ... on slide 9
15:19:05 [fjh]: s/JakeHart is IPcaller.a//
15:19:25 [fjh]: Present+ Jake_Hart
15:19:25 [nickstenn]: ... body has dc:format of "application/flv" and rdf:type of "dctypes:MovingImage"
15:19:27 [bjdmeest]: s/tyupes/types
15:19:37 [nickstenn]: ... target similarly has dc:format and rdf:type
15:19:43 [nickstenn]: ... slide 11
15:20:18 [nickstenn]: ... embedded bodies -- body can be an inlined resource as an alternative to a resource with a URI
15:20:26 [nickstenn]: ... concerns that people would never implement this
15:20:27 [nickstenn]: ... slide 12
15:20:50 [nickstenn]: ... this was a hotly debated point within CG
15:20:55 [nickstenn]: ... slide 13
15:21:07 [nickstenn]: ... settled on W3C's Content in RDF specification
15:21:29 [nickstenn]: ... seemed at the time like it was going forward towards full TR or some way there
15:21:31 [fjh]: http://www.w3.org/TR/Content-in-RDF10/
15:21:35 [nickstenn]: ... but that hasn't happened as yet
15:21:46 [nickstenn]: ... so we may need to discuss this within the context of this Working Group
15:21:52 [ivan]: ISSUE: what do we do with embedded content
15:21:52 [trackbot]: Created ISSUE-1 - What do we do with embedded content. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/annotation/track/issues/1/edit>.
15:22:02 [nickstenn]: ... do we want to stick with this or change the way we do embedding?
15:22:02 [fjh]: ISSUE-1: how to embedd content in graph, given status of Content in RDF spec, use that or change
15:22:02 [trackbot]: Notes added to ISSUE-1 What do we do with embedded content.
15:22:13 [nickstenn]: ... slide 15
15:22:29 [nickstenn]: s/slide 15/slide 14/
15:22:37 [fjh]: ISSUE-1: http://www.w3.org/TR/Content-in-RDF10/
15:22:37 [trackbot]: Notes added to ISSUE-1 What do we do with embedded content.
15:22:53 [nickstenn]: ... embedded body has rdf:type -> "cnt:ContentAsText"
15:22:59 [nickstenn]: ... slide 15
15:23:07 [nickstenn]: ... tagging -- the simplest form of annotation
15:23:31 [nickstenn]: ... comes in two forms: 1) plain text tags 2) semantic tags (tags with URI that *identifies* the concept)
15:23:41 [nickstenn]: ... also the ability to tag with a document, standing for a concept
15:23:57 [nickstenn]: ... slide 16
15:24:20 [nickstenn]: ... we give this rdf:type "oa:Tag" to distinguish the intent of this kind of body
15:24:29 [nickstenn]: ... slide 18
15:24:36 [MGU]: Question: Is not oa:Tag redundant with motivation predicates ?
15:24:49 [nickstenn]: ... semantic tagging is even easier, has rdf:type "oa:SemanticTag"
15:25:19 [nickstenn]: ... and the URI refers to the concept-as-tag
15:25:36 [MGU]: q+
15:25:39 [nickstenn]: ... there was some concensus that this was the most appropriate, if not perfect, way of doing this
15:25:56 [nickstenn]: ... we didn't think there was anything wrong with tagging with documents
15:26:04 [nickstenn]: ... but this might be an issue for re-discussing
15:26:29 [fjh]: ack MGU
15:26:35 [nickstenn]: ... in order to avoid polluting resources as a result of being tagged
15:26:48 [nickstenn]: MGU: is there a relationship between tagging and the motivations part of the model
15:26:58 [ivan]: ISSUE: with semantic tags, how to avoid polluting the space (eg, dbpedia Astronomy) with annotations
15:26:58 [trackbot]: Created ISSUE-2 - With semantic tags, how to avoid polluting the space (eg, dbpedia astronomy) with annotations. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/annotation/track/issues/2/edit>.
15:27:11 [nickstenn]: azaroth: yes, in that any annotation which has a tag body should probably have "tagging" as one of its motivations
15:27:21 [paoloC]: q+
15:27:29 [ivan]: q?
15:27:45 [fjh]: ack paoloc
15:27:48 [nickstenn]: ... it's probably slightly redundant, but in an annotation with non-tag content, you need to be able to distinguish between the tags and the non-tag content
15:28:18 [nickstenn]: paoloC: want to reinforce this point -- can have annotations with a motivation of "commenting" that nonetheless have tags
15:28:45 [fjh]: ISSUE-2: motivation can be commenting with comment, even if a tag is added , example in biology case might want to comment but tag t clarify scope of comment for example
15:28:45 [trackbot]: Notes added to ISSUE-2 With semantic tags, how to avoid polluting the space (eg, dbpedia astronomy) with annotations.
15:28:56 [nickstenn]: ... in biology, we may have annotations with a lot of text that references a lot of biological items/artefacts, which might be added as tags, even if the original motivation was commenting
15:29:08 [fjh]: q?
15:29:28 [nickstenn]: azaroth: i don't think we want to discuss solutions at this point -- we'll be jumping all over the stack
15:29:36 [nickstenn]: ... but do jump in with questions or issues
15:30:05 [nickstenn]: ... slide 20
15:30:38 [nickstenn]: ... we found a lot of systems want to use a document in place of a semantic tag, e.g. using a Wikipedia page to represent the content it describes
15:30:56 [nickstenn]: ... in order to avoid identifying the document as a semantic tag (which would be very wrong)
15:31:34 [nickstenn]: ... we introduce a new object between the document and the annotation, which has type "oa:SemanticTag" with a foaf:page relationship to the document
15:31:45 [nickstenn]: ... this object can be empty
15:31:47 [nickstenn]: ... slide 21
15:32:00 [nickstenn]: ... but it could be an object with, say, a UUID
15:32:07 [nickstenn]: ... slide 22
15:32:33 [nickstenn]: ... most *non-tag* annotations are about *segments* of a resource
15:32:46 [nickstenn]: ... (unlike "+1"s and "likes" and so on)
15:32:58 [nickstenn]: ... use URI fragments to identify and describe segments
15:33:27 [nickstenn]: ... Media Fragments WG have developed ways to identify fragments of images/video/etc.
15:33:43 [nickstenn]: ... great for simple cases but not sufficient
15:33:50 [nickstenn]: ... slide 23
15:34:11 [nickstenn]: ... can use these Fragment URIs as targets
15:34:16 [nickstenn]: ... slide 24
15:34:51 [nickstenn]: ... targets can reference these URIs, such as http://example.com/myimage.jpg#xywh=100,500,200,150
15:35:00 [nickstenn]: ... can also use same trick with bodies
15:35:05 [nickstenn]: ... slide 25
15:35:31 [nickstenn]: ... for example if only a short section of video annotates a particular resource
15:35:42 [nickstenn]: ... slide 26
15:35:52 [nickstenn]: ... model allows for annotations without a body
15:36:04 [nickstenn]: ... for use in, e.g., bookmarking and highlighting
15:36:15 [nickstenn]: ... slide 27
15:36:32 [nickstenn]: ... you're *implicitly* saying "i like this" or "i want to come back to this" -- it's not explicit in the model
15:36:42 [nickstenn]: ... slide 28
15:36:57 [nickstenn]: ... multiple bodies and targets: each body applies individually to each target
15:37:05 [nickstenn]: ... slide 29
15:37:29 [nickstenn]: ... for example, if you have one body about two targets -- you are implying that the body annotates *each* target
15:38:03 [csillag]: csillag
15:38:08 [nickstenn]: csillag: can I express if one body is annotating all the targets?
15:38:37 [nickstenn]: azaroth: we have notions of composites (set of all these things) and lists (set of all these things with order)
15:38:49 [nickstenn]: ... so you could indirect the target through a composite or list
15:39:06 [nickstenn]: ... another potential issue is whether we need composites (sets) as well as lists
15:39:09 [ivan]: ISSUE: do we need both composites and lists
15:39:09 [trackbot]: Created ISSUE-3 - Do we need both composites and lists. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/annotation/track/issues/3/edit>.
15:39:36 [nickstenn]: ... is the distinction between ordered and unordered sets of objects important
15:39:42 [nickstenn]: s/important/important?/
15:39:46 [nickstenn]: ... slide 30
15:39:59 [nickstenn]: ... we felt it was important to record the provenance of the annotations
15:40:14 [nickstenn]: ... useful for spam, reputation models, etc.
15:40:29 [nickstenn]: ... when the annotation was made -- needed for synchronisation
15:40:40 [MGU]: q+
15:40:56 [nickstenn]: ... also needed to establish if the targets might have changed since the annotation was made
15:41:11 [nickstenn]: ... who or what serialized the annotation to the document format?
15:41:32 [nickstenn]: ... this being useful for debugging, advertising, etc. (e.g. "Posted from TweetDeck")
15:41:33 [fjh]: ack MGU
15:41:43 [azaroth]: azaroth has joined #annotation
15:41:52 [nickstenn]: MGU: what about signing annotations with a private key?
15:42:08 [nickstenn]: ... is there a way that an author can sign an annotation to prove authorship?
15:42:39 [ivan]: ISSUE: do we need signature possibilities to annotations (not in the current OA model)
15:42:39 [trackbot]: Created ISSUE-4 - Do we need signature possibilities to annotations (not in the current oa model). Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/annotation/track/issues/4/edit>.
15:42:42 [nickstenn]: azaroth: we discussed annotation signing briefly, felt that it was quite complex and didn't want to add it as a burden [to implementers] if it wasn't necessary
15:42:49 [fjh]: ISSUE-4: is there a requirement for integrity protecting annotations with digital signatures
15:42:49 [trackbot]: Notes added to ISSUE-4 Do we need signature possibilities to annotations (not in the current oa model).
15:43:03 [Kyrce]: +q
15:43:11 [fjh]: ack Kyrce
15:43:59 [paoloC]: q+
15:44:21 [Jacob]: talking about roles for the annotation creator
15:44:37 [Jacob]: i.e., creator was an editor, author, etc.
15:44:53 [nickstenn]: Kyrce: there is a linkage between the annotation provenance and the role of the annotation creator
15:44:57 [nickstenn]: ... will send an email to the list
15:44:59 [Jacob]: IIRC, motivations were supposed to help support this.
15:45:01 [fjh]: q?
15:45:22 [csillag]: ISSUE-4: some previous discussion: https://github.com/hypothesis/h/issues/344
15:45:22 [trackbot]: Notes added to ISSUE-4 Do we need signature possibilities to annotations (not in the current oa model).
15:45:26 [nickstenn]: azaroth: agreed -- the lack of a way to record the role the creator is playing may be something we want to look into?
15:45:40 [nickstenn]: ... on the same resource the same person could have multiple roles at different times
15:46:00 [fjh]: ISSUE: define roles of actors, e.g. student, teacher etc.
15:46:00 [trackbot]: Created ISSUE-5 - Define roles of actors, e.g. student, teacher etc.. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/annotation/track/issues/5/edit>.
15:46:13 [nickstenn]: paoloC: we intentionally didn't go beyond the provenance layer because when we discussed prov there were different ideas
15:46:15 [fjh]: ISSUE-5: Kyrce will send email related to this
15:46:15 [trackbot]: Notes added to ISSUE-5 Define roles of actors, e.g. student, teacher etc..
15:46:30 [nickstenn]: ... we distinguish between who created something, who edited, who curated, etc.
15:46:40 [nickstenn]: ... all these aspects can be added to the annotation itself
15:46:42 [Gerben]: +q
15:46:47 [fjh]: ISSUE-5: paoloC notes that these things could be added to annotation itself
15:46:47 [trackbot]: Notes added to ISSUE-5 Define roles of actors, e.g. student, teacher etc..
15:46:50 [ivan]: ack paoloC
15:46:57 [fjh]: ack Gerben
15:46:57 [nickstenn]: ... we decided not to go into that level at the CG level
15:47:08 [Gerben]: hmm crap
15:47:11 [fjh]: zakim, who is here?
15:47:11 [Zakim]: On the phone I see MGU, Ivan, fjh, Markus, bjdmeest (muted), dwhly, dauwhe, Bill_Kasdorf, azaroth, Kyrce, Matt_Haas, +49.622.158.6.aaaa, unknown, nickstenn (muted), [IPcaller]
15:47:15 [Zakim]: ... (muted), bigbluehat, rayd, TimCole, chillag, tilgovi, JakeHart
15:47:15 [Zakim]: TimCole has Jacob
15:47:15 [Zakim]: On IRC I see azaroth, Gerben, tilgovi, scharf, Jacob, TimCole, csillag, rayd, Kyrce, Bill_Kasdorf, bjdmeest, Matt_Haas, dauwhe, paoloC, mgylling, MGU, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent,
15:47:15 [Zakim]: ... nickstenn, ivan, KevinMarks, MarkS, dwhly, bigbluehat, tripu, Mitar, JakeHart, stain, trackbot
15:47:19 [fjh]: s/hmm crap//
15:47:20 [TimCole]: TimCole has left #annotation
15:47:31 [MGU]: q+
15:47:45 [fjh]: ack MGU
15:47:56 [fjh]: zakim, who is making noise?
15:48:10 [Zakim]: fjh, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:49:05 [MGU]: I ask ed whether we would define a core annotatin system/voca and then extensions
15:49:27 [Gerben]: fjh: yes
15:49:28 [fjh]: s/ask ed/asked/
15:49:37 [nickstenn]: azaroth: in the CG we started off with the core model and an extension set
15:50:06 [nickstenn]: ... the issue we had with this was that it became impossible to know or recall which things were in the core namespace and which were in the extension namespace
15:50:27 [nickstenn]: ... it became confusing why some things were extensions and some things weren't
15:50:40 [nickstenn]: ... in the current (CG) model, everything is in one namespace
15:50:47 [nickstenn]: ... but that's not to say we can't do that here
15:50:58 [nickstenn]: ... modules are a part of some W3C specifications (e.g. CSS)
15:51:25 [nickstenn]: ... although I would want to defer any decision on that until the spec became so large that it needed to be split
15:51:37 [fjh]: ISSUE: are modules needed? , defer until we really need it with large spec
15:51:37 [trackbot]: Created ISSUE-6 - Are modules needed? , defer until we really need it with large spec. Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/annotation/track/issues/6/edit>.
15:51:48 [MGU]: ok for me
15:52:18 [nickstenn]: azaroth: moving on... slide 31
15:52:44 [nickstenn]: ... the model for provenance is that provenance data sits on the annotation
15:53:01 [nickstenn]: ... e.g. oa:annotatedBy, oa:serializedBy, oa:serializedAt, etc.
15:53:12 [nickstenn]: ... slide 33
15:53:25 [nickstenn]: ... there are different classes of agent (such as Person, Organisation, Software)
15:53:48 [nickstenn]: ... annotation model doesn't say anything about that: we leave it to other data models (FOAF, etc.)
15:54:08 [nickstenn]: ... slide 36
15:54:21 [nickstenn]: ... motivations: we want to know why the annotation was created
15:54:39 [nickstenn]: ... introduce a Motivation class, separate from Annotation class
15:54:57 [nickstenn]: ... because we wanted to be able to use the richer SKOS Concept ontology to provide cross-community resolution
15:55:24 [nickstenn]: ... so another community can develop a different motivation, to which we can link using SKOS
15:55:50 [nickstenn]: ... slide 37
15:56:02 [nickstenn]: ... a set of motivations from the specification
15:56:14 [nickstenn]: ... such as commenting, bookmarking, highlighting, tagging, etc.
15:56:24 [nickstenn]: ... slide 38
15:56:35 [nickstenn]: ... we record this as oa:moticatedBy on the annotation
15:56:51 [nickstenn]: ... that's the end of the core data model
15:56:55 [csillag]: q+
15:56:58 [nickstenn]: ... any more quesions?
15:57:03 [bigbluehat]: s/moticatedBy/motivatedBy
15:57:04 [ivan]: ack csillag
15:57:10 [nickstenn]: s/quesions/questions/
15:57:34 [nickstenn]: csillag: is there a list of the difference between bodies and targets -- what can bodies do vs targets?
15:57:48 [nickstenn]: azaroth: what do you mean by "do"?
15:58:01 [nickstenn]: csillag: what's the reason for the distinction?
15:58:11 [Jacob]: Bodies and targets are symmetrical properties of the annotation but each has a different role with respect to the annotation.
15:58:31 [nickstenn]: azaroth: you need to know [which piece annotates and which piece is annotated]
15:58:46 [nickstenn]: ... but the objects have the same behaviour in RDF space
15:58:56 [Zakim]: -dauwhe
15:59:23 [fjh]: big thanks to Nick for excellent scribing.
15:59:29 [paoloC]: +1
15:59:29 [ivan]: Thanks indeed!
15:59:35 [Jacob]: +1
15:59:36 [MGU]: thanks !
15:59:38 [ivan]: and thanks to rob for the presentation
15:59:38 [nickstenn]: azaroth: please do bring up any issues and discussions on the mailing list
15:59:53 [paoloC]: q+
16:00:00 [fjh]: ack pauloC
16:00:08 [ivan]: ack paoloC
16:00:21 [nickstenn]: paoloC: question unrelated to the model -- during the week people said what they were interested in
16:00:26 [nickstenn]: ... what's the plan for that data?
16:00:45 [nickstenn]: azaroth: we now have all but the last two or three into my tracking spreadsheet
16:00:50 [nickstenn]: ... it's reasonably well separated out
16:00:53 [fjh]: +1 thanks to Rob for excellent presentation
16:01:02 [nickstenn]: ... no orphaned topics, and none with vastly more interest
16:01:14 [nickstenn]: ... by the end of the week i will try to have that information public
16:01:18 [Zakim]: -[IPcaller]
16:01:27 [nickstenn]: s/interest/interest than others/
16:01:31 [Zakim]: -Markus
16:01:32 [Zakim]: -rayd
16:01:34 [Zakim]: -TimCole
16:01:35 [Zakim]: - +49.622.158.6.aaaa
16:01:35 [nickstenn]: FIN
16:01:35 [Zakim]: -azaroth
16:01:36 [Zakim]: -JakeHart
16:01:39 [Zakim]: -bigbluehat
16:01:41 [Zakim]: -Ivan
16:01:41 [fjh]: Topic: Adjourn
16:01:42 [Zakim]: -Kyrce
16:01:42 [paoloC]: paoloC has left #annotation
16:01:47 [Zakim]: -fjh
16:01:48 [Zakim]: -MGU
16:01:50 [Zakim]: -Bill_Kasdorf
16:01:51 [Zakim]: -Matt_Haas
16:01:55 [Zakim]: -bjdmeest
16:01:56 [ivan]: rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:56 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/01-annotation-minutes.html ivan
16:01:56 [Zakim]: -nickstenn
16:02:03 [MGU]: MGU has left #annotation
16:02:13 [Zakim]: -chillag
16:02:24 [Zakim]: -dwhly
16:04:21 [ivan]: zakim, who is here?
16:04:23 [Zakim]: On the phone I see unknown, tilgovi
16:04:23 [Zakim]: On IRC I see tilgovi, scharf, csillag, rayd, Kyrce, dauwhe, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, nickstenn, ivan, KevinMarks, MarkS, dwhly, bigbluehat, tripu, Mitar, JakeHart, stain, trackbot
16:04:42 [ivan]: trackbot, end telcon
16:04:42 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
16:04:42 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been Ivan, MGU, fjh, Markus, Stephane, dwhly, bjdmeest, dauwhe, Bill_Kasdorf, azaroth, Kyrce, Matt_Haas, +49.622.158.6.aaaa, unknown, nickstenn,
16:04:46 [Zakim]: ... [IPcaller], bigbluehat, rayd, +1.217.300.aabb, +36.2.020.7.aacc, Jacob, chillag, +1.914.980.aadd, tilgovi, JakeHart
16:04:50 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:04:50 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/01-annotation-minutes.html trackbot
16:04:51 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
16:04:51 [RRSAgent]: I see no action items