14:24:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #annotation
14:24:39 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/10/01-annotation-irc
14:24:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:24:41 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #annotation
14:24:43 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2666
14:24:43 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_(ANNO)11:00AM scheduled to start in 36 minutes
14:24:44 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
14:24:44 <trackbot> Date: 01 October 2014
14:26:08 <ivan> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/848CF92E-9F79-4B81-BBC4-86A37E747B8B@fjhirsch.com
14:26:48 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Code 2666, Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2014Sep/0075.html
14:26:53 <ivan> Chair: Frederick
14:47:29 <fjh> fjh has joined #annotation
14:47:58 <MGU> MGU has joined #annotation
14:48:38 <fjh> fjh has changed the topic to: Code 2666, Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2014Sep/0075.html
14:48:59 <fjh> trackbot, start telecon
14:49:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:49:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2666
14:49:03 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_(ANNO)11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
14:49:04 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
14:49:04 <trackbot> Date: 01 October 2014
14:49:17 <fjh> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2014Sep/0075.html
14:49:26 <fjh> Chair: Rob_Sanderson, Frederick_Hirsch
14:49:38 <fjh> Present+ Rob_Sanderson, Frederick_Hirsch
14:51:29 <Zakim> DPUB_(ANNO)11:00AM has now started
14:51:35 <Zakim> +??P1
14:52:18 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #annotation
14:54:32 <MGU> zakim, ??P1 maybe MGU
14:54:32 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P1 maybe MGU', MGU
14:54:49 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:54:49 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:54:51 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:55:11 <MGU> zakim, ??P1 is MGU
14:55:11 <Zakim> +MGU; got it
14:55:26 <Zakim> +??P2
14:55:50 <Zakim> -??P2
14:56:03 <paoloC> paoloC has joined #annotation
14:56:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:56:46 <fjh> zakim, ipcaller is me
14:56:46 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
14:56:55 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
14:56:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see MGU, Ivan, fjh
14:56:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see paoloC, mgylling, MGU, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, nickstenn, ivan, KevinMarks, MarkS, dwhly, bigbluehat, tripu, Mitar, JakeHart, stain, trackbot
14:57:04 <ivan> Present+ Ivan Herman
14:57:34 <MGU> I am
14:57:44 <Zakim> +Markus
14:57:49 <bigbluehat> Present+ Benjamin Young
14:58:02 <bigbluehat> dwhly: mind sharing when you find it? :)
14:58:28 <Zakim> +Stephane
14:58:49 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #annotation
14:58:55 <Matt_Haas> Matt_Haas has joined #annotation
14:58:55 <Zakim> +[Ugent]
14:59:00 <dwhly> bigbluehat:  +1.617.761.6200.
14:59:02 <bjdmeest> bjdmeest has joined #annotation
14:59:30 <bigbluehat> dwhly: your the best! :)
14:59:30 <bigbluehat> tnx
14:59:36 <bigbluehat> mgylling: hangry?
14:59:36 <bjdmeest> zakim, who is here?
14:59:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see MGU, Ivan, fjh, Markus, Stephane, [Ugent]
14:59:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see bjdmeest, Matt_Haas, dauwhe, paoloC, mgylling, MGU, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, nickstenn, ivan, KevinMarks, MarkS, dwhly, bigbluehat, tripu, Mitar, JakeHart, stain,
14:59:38 <Zakim> ... trackbot
14:59:40 <Zakim> -Stephane
14:59:43 <Zakim> +dwhly
14:59:46 <bjdmeest> zakim, Ugent is me
14:59:47 <Zakim> +bjdmeest; got it
14:59:51 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #annotation
14:59:58 <Zakim> +dauwhe
14:59:58 <bjdmeest> zakim, mute me
14:59:58 <Zakim> bjdmeest should now be muted
15:00:02 <Zakim> +Bill_Kasdorf
15:00:15 <Zakim> +azaroth
15:00:39 <Zakim> +Kyrce
15:00:54 <Zakim> +Matt_Haas
15:01:16 <Kyrce> Kyrce has joined #annotation
15:01:21 <Zakim> + +49.622.158.6.aaaa
15:01:27 <Zakim> +unknown
15:02:03 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #annotation
15:02:13 <azaroth> Present+ Rob_Sanderson
15:02:15 <Matt_Haas> +Matt_Haas on the 717.635.9629 phone number
15:02:20 <rayd> rayd has joined #annotation
15:02:22 <dwhly> Present+ Dan_Whaley
15:02:27 <paoloC> Present+ Paolo_Ciccarese
15:02:31 <csillag> csillag has joined #annotation
15:02:32 <csillag_> csillag_ has joined #annotation
15:02:42 <ivan> zakim, 9629 is Matt_Haas
15:02:42 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named '9629'
15:02:42 <MGU> Present+Maxence Guesdon
15:02:56 <fjh> Present+ Maxence_Guesdon
15:02:58 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
15:02:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see MGU, Ivan, fjh, Markus, bjdmeest (muted), dwhly, dauwhe, Bill_Kasdorf, azaroth, Kyrce, Matt_Haas, +49.622.158.6.aaaa, unknown
15:03:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see csillag, rayd, azaroth, Kyrce, Bill_Kasdorf, bjdmeest, Matt_Haas, dauwhe, paoloC, mgylling, MGU, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, nickstenn, ivan, KevinMarks, MarkS, dwhly,
15:03:01 <Zakim> ... bigbluehat, tripu, Mitar, JakeHart, stain, trackbot
15:03:03 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:03:04 <fjh> s/Present+Maxence Guesdon//
15:03:10 <nickstenn> Zakim, ipcaller is me
15:03:10 <Zakim> +nickstenn; got it
15:03:13 <nickstenn> Zakim, mute me
15:03:13 <Zakim> nickstenn should now be muted
15:03:22 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
15:03:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see MGU, Ivan, fjh, Markus, bjdmeest (muted), dwhly, dauwhe, Bill_Kasdorf, azaroth, Kyrce, Matt_Haas, +49.622.158.6.aaaa, unknown, nickstenn (muted)
15:03:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see csillag, rayd, azaroth, Kyrce, Bill_Kasdorf, bjdmeest, Matt_Haas, dauwhe, paoloC, mgylling, MGU, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, nickstenn, ivan, KevinMarks, MarkS, dwhly,
15:03:23 <Zakim> ... bigbluehat, tripu, Mitar, JakeHart, stain, trackbot
15:03:27 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:03:42 <ivan> scribenick: nickstenn
15:03:51 <Zakim> +bigbluehat
15:04:05 <csillag> Dear all, what is the relationship between the audio channel and this IRC channel?
15:04:07 <fjh> Topic: Agenda Review, Announcement
15:04:16 <fjh> zakim, who is making noise?
15:04:25 <Zakim> +rayd
15:04:27 <Zakim> fjh, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MGU (15%), Bill_Kasdorf (5%), azaroth (7%)
15:04:27 <azaroth> zakim, who is making noise?
15:04:31 <TimCole> TimCole has joined #annotation
15:04:39 <Zakim> azaroth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bill_Kasdorf (4%), azaroth (4%), [IPcaller] (96%)
15:04:50 <bigbluehat> wow...that features worth all this setup time :)
15:05:05 <csillag> ivan, I would like to know more about the roles of the two channels: IRC and audio. Is IRC enough? Or is meaningful information being exchanged over Audio? What's the role of IRC then?
15:05:20 <azaroth> csillag: The IRC is mostly a record of what happens on the call
15:05:20 <Jacob> Jacob has joined #annotation
15:05:24 <bigbluehat> no worries! this is no slower than all the other telcos I've ever been on :)
15:05:32 <dwhly> csillag: most of the information is audio
15:05:37 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
15:05:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see MGU, Ivan, fjh, Markus, bjdmeest (muted), dwhly, dauwhe, Bill_Kasdorf, azaroth, Kyrce, Matt_Haas, +49.622.158.6.aaaa, unknown, nickstenn (muted), [IPcaller],
15:05:38 <Zakim> ... bigbluehat, rayd
15:05:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see Jacob, TimCole, csillag, rayd, azaroth, Kyrce, Bill_Kasdorf, bjdmeest, Matt_Haas, dauwhe, paoloC, mgylling, MGU, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, nickstenn, ivan, KevinMarks,
15:05:39 <Zakim> ... MarkS, dwhly, bigbluehat, tripu, Mitar, JakeHart, stain, trackbot
15:05:39 <Zakim> + +1.217.300.aabb
15:05:40 <azaroth> and for making notes, taking "votes" and so on
15:05:45 <scharf> scharf has joined #annotation
15:05:51 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:06:09 <nickstenn> fjh: TPAC is coming up -- deadline Oct 8th
15:06:15 <tilgovi> tilgovi has joined #annotation
15:06:20 <nickstenn> ... make sure you've made arrangements
15:06:38 <nickstenn> ... have also sent out a notice about an upcoming privacy workshop that may be of interest to this group
15:06:45 <fjh> privacy workshop notice http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2014Sep/0072.html
15:06:45 <TimCole> Tim Cole and Jacob Jett are 217
15:06:53 <Zakim> + +36.2.020.7.aacc
15:06:56 <fjh> Topic: Tools
15:06:58 <scharf> I dialed in from Germany -- Michael Scharf
15:07:00 <ivan> zakim, aabb is TimCole
15:07:01 <Zakim> +TimCole; got it
15:07:04 <Gerben> Gerben has joined #annotation
15:07:06 <csillag> I just dialed in from Hungary.
15:07:07 <ivan> zakim, TimCole has Jacob
15:07:07 <Zakim> +Jacob; got it
15:07:18 <nickstenn> fjh: i think we decided on the list to use GitHub for issue tracking
15:07:32 <nickstenn> ... but there are questions about how to get notifications on the list
15:07:32 <bigbluehat> Zapier.com + mailing list posting?
15:07:38 <dwhly> zakim aacc is csillag
15:07:40 <bigbluehat> Webhooks (broadly)
15:07:43 <nickstenn> ... any suggestions for how to do this?
15:07:50 <ivan> zakim, aacc is chillag
15:07:50 <Zakim> +chillag; got it
15:07:55 <ivan> s/chillag/csillag/
15:08:00 <bigbluehat> +1
15:08:03 <ivan> +1
15:08:07 <Jacob> +1
15:08:45 <fjh> proposed RESOLUTION: use github for issues tracking, assuming we will get notices to public list working later
15:08:56 <nickstenn> ivan: if you have a good trick for this, let me know off-list
15:09:00 <ivan> RESOLUTION: use github for issues tracking, assuming we will get notices to public list working later
15:09:01 <nickstenn> RESOLUTION: use github for issues tracking, assuming we will get notices to public list working later
15:09:12 <fjh> proposed RESOLUTION: use tracker for actions
15:09:20 <ivan> +1
15:09:24 <nickstenn> RESOLUTION: use tracker for actions
15:10:02 <fjh> we may use tracker to capture issues quickly during a call but will then use github for full issue tracking
15:10:19 <nickstenn> Zakim, who is making noise?
15:10:30 <Zakim> nickstenn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: fjh (24%), azaroth (9%), [IPcaller] (93%)
15:10:38 <fjh> Topic: Minutes approval
15:10:39 <nickstenn> Zakim, mute ipcaller
15:10:39 <Zakim> [IPcaller] should now be muted
15:10:48 <fjh> proposed RESOLUTION: Minutes from 24 Sept 2014 approved, http://www.w3.org/2014/09/24-annotation-minutes.html
15:11:00 <nickstenn> RESOLUTION: Minutes from 24 Sept 2014 approved, http://www.w3.org/2014/09/24-annotation-minutes.html
15:11:31 <azaroth> http://www.slideshare.net/azaroth42/open-annotation-core-data-model-tutorial
15:11:46 <fjh> Topic: Data Model review
15:11:49 <nickstenn> fjh: if you want an issue created, put it in irc with "issue: ..."
15:11:55 <fjh> http://www.slideshare.net/azaroth42/open-annotation-core-data-model-tutorial
15:11:56 <fjh> Highlight known issues, WG members indicate additional issues, discuss
15:12:15 <Zakim> + +1.914.980.aadd
15:12:16 <nickstenn> azaroth: not everyone has come from the community group so we're going to work through the data model and review people's questions and concerns
15:12:38 <tilgovi> tilgovi
15:12:39 <nickstenn> ... link in IRC is a slideshare presentation about the core data model
15:12:50 <nickstenn> ... please shout if you have questions as we go through this
15:12:52 <ivan> zakim, aadd is tilgovi
15:12:52 <Zakim> +tilgovi; got it
15:12:58 <nickstenn> ... first slide: what is annotation?
15:13:11 <nickstenn> ... one of the issues we had in the community group: how to define what an annotation is?
15:13:30 <nickstenn> ... Annotation: a set of connected resources, typically including a body and target
15:14:26 <nickstenn> ... examples use cases: as aide-memoire, share, improve discovery, organise, interact with other people, being a creator (e.g. editor) or moderator ... over the linked resources
15:14:33 <nickstenn> s/examples/example/
15:14:42 <nickstenn> ... that's the baseline scope that was considered in the CG
15:15:11 <fjh> slide 4 core data model
15:15:24 <nickstenn> ... which resulted in our baseline model for annotations: a separation of the annotation, which encapsulates the linkage between body and target
15:15:40 <nickstenn> ... a freq question is "how do I give the relationship between body and target?"
15:15:52 <nickstenn> ... we don't want to reinvent RDF
15:15:58 <fjh> slide 5
15:16:06 <fjh> now slide 6
15:16:25 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
15:16:31 <nickstenn> ... example here on slide 6 --- a video about a Hubble Deep Field image
15:16:47 <nickstenn> ... [the body is implicitly related to the target]
15:16:53 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:17:08 <nickstenn> ... we're on slide 8
15:17:19 <bigbluehat> this deck, yes? http://www.slideshare.net/azaroth42/open-annotation-core-data-model-tutorial
15:17:39 <nickstenn> ... useful to know the general type of body and target
15:17:52 <bigbluehat> dwhly: just wanted that in the logs :)
15:17:58 <nickstenn> ... e.g. body is text serves as a hint to viewer about how to render the annotation
15:18:07 <bigbluehat> heh...missed it earlier...my bad
15:18:11 <nickstenn> ... versus audio, video, etc.
15:18:20 <nickstenn> ... also useful to know the media type
15:18:25 <fjh> s/heh...missed it earlier...my bad//
15:18:25 <JakeHart> JakeHart is IPcaller.a
15:18:34 <nickstenn> ... which might be codec, etc.
15:18:40 <dwhly> zakim, JakeHart is IPcaller.a
15:18:40 <Zakim> sorry, dwhly, I do not recognize a party named 'JakeHart'
15:18:50 <fjh> zakim, IPcaller.a is JakeHart
15:18:50 <Zakim> +JakeHart; got it
15:18:51 <nickstenn> ... recommendation to use Dublin Core tyupes vocab
15:19:00 <nickstenn> ... on slide 9
15:19:05 <fjh> s/JakeHart is IPcaller.a//
15:19:25 <fjh> Present+ Jake_Hart
15:19:25 <nickstenn> ... body has dc:format of "application/flv" and rdf:type of "dctypes:MovingImage"
15:19:27 <bjdmeest> s/tyupes/types
15:19:37 <nickstenn> ... target similarly has dc:format and rdf:type
15:19:43 <nickstenn> ... slide 11
15:20:18 <nickstenn> ... embedded bodies -- body can be an inlined resource as an alternative to a resource with a URI
15:20:26 <nickstenn> ... concerns that people would never implement this
15:20:27 <nickstenn> ... slide 12
15:20:50 <nickstenn> ... this was a hotly debated point within CG
15:20:55 <nickstenn> ... slide 13
15:21:07 <nickstenn> ... settled on W3C's Content in RDF specification
15:21:29 <nickstenn> ... seemed at the time like it was going forward towards full TR or some way there
15:21:31 <fjh> http://www.w3.org/TR/Content-in-RDF10/
15:21:35 <nickstenn> ... but that hasn't happened as yet
15:21:46 <nickstenn> ... so we may need to discuss this within the context of this Working Group
15:21:52 <ivan> ISSUE: what do we do with embedded content
15:21:52 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-1 - What do we do with embedded content.  Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/annotation/track/issues/1/edit>.
15:22:02 <nickstenn> ... do we want to stick with this or change the way we do embedding?
15:22:02 <fjh> ISSUE-1: how to embedd content in graph, given status of Content in RDF spec, use that or change
15:22:02 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-1 What do we do with embedded content.
15:22:13 <nickstenn> ... slide 15
15:22:29 <nickstenn> s/slide 15/slide 14/
15:22:37 <fjh> ISSUE-1: http://www.w3.org/TR/Content-in-RDF10/
15:22:37 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-1 What do we do with embedded content.
15:22:53 <nickstenn> ... embedded body has rdf:type -> "cnt:ContentAsText"
15:22:59 <nickstenn> ... slide 15
15:23:07 <nickstenn> ... tagging -- the simplest form of annotation
15:23:31 <nickstenn> ... comes in two forms: 1) plain text tags 2) semantic tags (tags with URI that *identifies* the concept)
15:23:41 <nickstenn> ... also the ability to tag with a document, standing for a concept
15:23:57 <nickstenn> ... slide 16
15:24:20 <nickstenn> ... we give this rdf:type "oa:Tag" to distinguish the intent of this kind of body
15:24:29 <nickstenn> ... slide 18
15:24:36 <MGU> Question: Is not oa:Tag redundant with motivation predicates ?
15:24:49 <nickstenn> ... semantic tagging is even easier, has rdf:type "oa:SemanticTag"
15:25:19 <nickstenn> ... and the URI refers to the concept-as-tag
15:25:36 <MGU> q+
15:25:39 <nickstenn> ... there was some concensus that this was the most appropriate, if not perfect, way of doing this
15:25:56 <nickstenn> ... we didn't think there was anything wrong with tagging with documents
15:26:04 <nickstenn> ... but this might be an issue for re-discussing
15:26:29 <fjh> ack MGU
15:26:35 <nickstenn> ... in order to avoid polluting resources as a result of being tagged
15:26:48 <nickstenn> MGU: is there a relationship between tagging and the motivations part of the model
15:26:58 <ivan> ISSUE: with semantic tags, how to avoid polluting the space (eg, dbpedia Astronomy) with annotations
15:26:58 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2 - With semantic tags, how to avoid polluting the space (eg, dbpedia astronomy) with annotations.  Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/annotation/track/issues/2/edit>.
15:27:11 <nickstenn> azaroth: yes, in that any annotation which has a tag body should probably have "tagging" as one of its motivations
15:27:21 <paoloC> q+
15:27:29 <ivan> q?
15:27:45 <fjh> ack paoloc
15:27:48 <nickstenn> ... it's probably slightly redundant, but in an annotation with non-tag content, you need to be able to distinguish between the tags and the non-tag content
15:28:18 <nickstenn> paoloC: want to reinforce this point -- can have annotations with a motivation of "commenting" that nonetheless have tags
15:28:45 <fjh> ISSUE-2: motivation can be commenting with comment, even if a tag is added , example in biology case might want to comment but tag t clarify scope of comment for example
15:28:45 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-2 With semantic tags, how to avoid polluting the space (eg, dbpedia astronomy) with annotations.
15:28:56 <nickstenn> ... in biology, we may have annotations with a lot of text that references a lot of biological items/artefacts, which might be added as tags, even if the original motivation was commenting
15:29:08 <fjh> q?
15:29:28 <nickstenn> azaroth: i don't think we want to discuss solutions at this point -- we'll be jumping all over the stack
15:29:36 <nickstenn> ... but do jump in with questions or issues
15:30:05 <nickstenn> ... slide 20
15:30:38 <nickstenn> ... we found a lot of systems want to use a document in place of a semantic tag, e.g. using a Wikipedia page to represent the content it describes
15:30:56 <nickstenn> ... in order to avoid identifying the document as a semantic tag (which would be very wrong)
15:31:34 <nickstenn> ... we introduce a new object between the document and the annotation, which has type "oa:SemanticTag" with a foaf:page relationship to the document
15:31:45 <nickstenn> ... this object can be empty
15:31:47 <nickstenn> ... slide 21
15:32:00 <nickstenn> ... but it could be an object with, say, a UUID
15:32:07 <nickstenn> ... slide 22
15:32:33 <nickstenn> ... most *non-tag* annotations are about *segments* of a resource
15:32:46 <nickstenn> ... (unlike "+1"s and "likes" and so on)
15:32:58 <nickstenn> ... use URI fragments to identify and describe segments
15:33:27 <nickstenn> ... Media Fragments WG have developed ways to identify fragments of images/video/etc.
15:33:43 <nickstenn> ... great for simple cases but not sufficient
15:33:50 <nickstenn> ... slide 23
15:34:11 <nickstenn> ... can use these Fragment URIs as targets
15:34:16 <nickstenn> ... slide 24
15:34:51 <nickstenn> ... targets can reference these URIs, such as http://example.com/myimage.jpg#xywh=100,500,200,150
15:35:00 <nickstenn> ... can also use same trick with bodies
15:35:05 <nickstenn> ... slide 25
15:35:31 <nickstenn> ... for example if only a short section of video annotates a particular resource
15:35:42 <nickstenn> ... slide 26
15:35:52 <nickstenn> ... model allows for annotations without a body
15:36:04 <nickstenn> ... for use in, e.g., bookmarking and highlighting
15:36:15 <nickstenn> ... slide 27
15:36:32 <nickstenn> ... you're *implicitly* saying "i like this" or "i want to come back to this" -- it's not explicit in the model
15:36:42 <nickstenn> ... slide 28
15:36:57 <nickstenn> ... multiple bodies and targets: each body applies individually to each target
15:37:05 <nickstenn> ... slide 29
15:37:29 <nickstenn> ... for example, if you have one body about two targets -- you are implying that the body annotates *each* target
15:38:03 <csillag> csillag
15:38:08 <nickstenn> csillag: can I express if one body is annotating all the targets?
15:38:37 <nickstenn> azaroth: we have notions of composites (set of all these things) and lists (set of all these things with order)
15:38:49 <nickstenn> ... so you could indirect the target through a composite or list
15:39:06 <nickstenn> ... another potential issue is whether we need composites (sets) as well as lists
15:39:09 <ivan> ISSUE: do we need both composites and lists
15:39:09 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-3 - Do we need both composites and lists.  Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/annotation/track/issues/3/edit>.
15:39:36 <nickstenn> ... is the distinction between ordered and unordered sets of objects important
15:39:42 <nickstenn> s/important/important?/
15:39:46 <nickstenn> ... slide 30
15:39:59 <nickstenn> ... we felt it was important to record the provenance of the annotations
15:40:14 <nickstenn> ... useful for spam, reputation models, etc.
15:40:29 <nickstenn> ... when the annotation was made -- needed for synchronisation
15:40:40 <MGU> q+
15:40:56 <nickstenn> ... also needed to establish if the targets might have changed since the annotation was made
15:41:11 <nickstenn> ... who or what serialized the annotation to the document format?
15:41:32 <nickstenn> ... this being useful for debugging, advertising, etc. (e.g. "Posted from TweetDeck")
15:41:33 <fjh> ack MGU
15:41:43 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #annotation
15:41:52 <nickstenn> MGU: what about signing annotations with a private key?
15:42:08 <nickstenn> ... is there a way that an author can sign an annotation to prove authorship?
15:42:39 <ivan> ISSUE: do we need signature possibilities to annotations (not in the current OA model)
15:42:39 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-4 - Do we need signature possibilities to annotations (not in the current oa model).  Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/annotation/track/issues/4/edit>.
15:42:42 <nickstenn> azaroth: we discussed annotation signing briefly, felt that it was quite complex and didn't want to add it as a burden [to implementers] if it wasn't necessary
15:42:49 <fjh> ISSUE-4: is there a requirement for integrity protecting annotations with digital signatures
15:42:49 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-4 Do we need signature possibilities to annotations (not in the current oa model).
15:43:03 <Kyrce> +q
15:43:11 <fjh> ack Kyrce
15:43:59 <paoloC> q+
15:44:21 <Jacob> talking about roles for the annotation creator
15:44:37 <Jacob> i.e., creator was an editor, author, etc.
15:44:53 <nickstenn> Kyrce: there is a linkage between the annotation provenance and the role of the annotation creator
15:44:57 <nickstenn> ... will send an email to the list
15:44:59 <Jacob> IIRC, motivations were supposed to help support this.
15:45:01 <fjh> q?
15:45:22 <csillag> ISSUE-4: some previous discussion: https://github.com/hypothesis/h/issues/344
15:45:22 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-4 Do we need signature possibilities to annotations (not in the current oa model).
15:45:26 <nickstenn> azaroth: agreed -- the lack of a way to record the role the creator is playing may be something we want to look into?
15:45:40 <nickstenn> ... on the same resource the same person could have multiple roles at different times
15:46:00 <fjh> ISSUE: define roles of actors, e.g. student, teacher etc.
15:46:00 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-5 - Define roles of actors, e.g. student, teacher etc..  Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/annotation/track/issues/5/edit>.
15:46:13 <nickstenn> paoloC: we intentionally didn't go beyond the provenance layer because when we discussed prov there were different ideas
15:46:15 <fjh> ISSUE-5: Kyrce will send email related to this
15:46:15 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-5 Define roles of actors, e.g. student, teacher etc..
15:46:30 <nickstenn> ... we distinguish between who created something, who edited, who curated, etc.
15:46:40 <nickstenn> ... all these aspects can be added to the annotation itself
15:46:42 <Gerben> +q
15:46:47 <fjh> ISSUE-5: paoloC notes that these things could be added to annotation itself
15:46:47 <trackbot> Notes added to ISSUE-5 Define roles of actors, e.g. student, teacher etc..
15:46:50 <ivan> ack paoloC
15:46:57 <fjh> ack Gerben
15:46:57 <nickstenn> ... we decided not to go into that level at the CG level
15:47:08 <Gerben> hmm crap
15:47:11 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
15:47:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see MGU, Ivan, fjh, Markus, bjdmeest (muted), dwhly, dauwhe, Bill_Kasdorf, azaroth, Kyrce, Matt_Haas, +49.622.158.6.aaaa, unknown, nickstenn (muted), [IPcaller]
15:47:15 <Zakim> ... (muted), bigbluehat, rayd, TimCole, chillag, tilgovi, JakeHart
15:47:15 <Zakim> TimCole has Jacob
15:47:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see azaroth, Gerben, tilgovi, scharf, Jacob, TimCole, csillag, rayd, Kyrce, Bill_Kasdorf, bjdmeest, Matt_Haas, dauwhe, paoloC, mgylling, MGU, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent,
15:47:15 <Zakim> ... nickstenn, ivan, KevinMarks, MarkS, dwhly, bigbluehat, tripu, Mitar, JakeHart, stain, trackbot
15:47:19 <fjh> s/hmm crap//
15:47:20 <TimCole> TimCole has left #annotation
15:47:31 <MGU> q+
15:47:45 <fjh> ack MGU
15:47:56 <fjh> zakim, who is making noise?
15:48:10 <Zakim> fjh, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:49:05 <MGU> I ask ed whether we would define a core annotatin system/voca and then extensions
15:49:27 <Gerben> fjh: yes
15:49:28 <fjh> s/ask ed/asked/
15:49:37 <nickstenn> azaroth: in the CG we started off with the core model and an extension set
15:50:06 <nickstenn> ... the issue we had with this was that it became impossible to know or recall which things were in the core namespace and which were in the extension namespace
15:50:27 <nickstenn> ... it became confusing why some things were extensions and some things weren't
15:50:40 <nickstenn> ... in the current (CG) model, everything is in one namespace
15:50:47 <nickstenn> ... but that's not to say we can't do that here
15:50:58 <nickstenn> ... modules are a part of some W3C specifications (e.g. CSS)
15:51:25 <nickstenn> ... although I would want to defer any decision on that until the spec became so large that it needed to be split
15:51:37 <fjh> ISSUE: are modules needed? , defer until we really need it with large spec
15:51:37 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-6 - Are modules needed? , defer until we really need it with large spec.  Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/annotation/track/issues/6/edit>.
15:51:48 <MGU> ok for me
15:52:18 <nickstenn> azaroth: moving on... slide 31
15:52:44 <nickstenn> ... the model for provenance is that provenance data sits on the annotation
15:53:01 <nickstenn> ... e.g. oa:annotatedBy, oa:serializedBy, oa:serializedAt, etc.
15:53:12 <nickstenn> ... slide 33
15:53:25 <nickstenn> ... there are different classes of agent (such as Person, Organisation, Software)
15:53:48 <nickstenn> ... annotation model doesn't say anything about that: we leave it to other data models (FOAF, etc.)
15:54:08 <nickstenn> ... slide 36
15:54:21 <nickstenn> ... motivations: we want to know why the annotation was created
15:54:39 <nickstenn> ... introduce a Motivation class, separate from Annotation class
15:54:57 <nickstenn> ... because we wanted to be able to use the richer SKOS Concept ontology to provide cross-community resolution
15:55:24 <nickstenn> ... so another community can develop a different motivation, to which we can link using SKOS
15:55:50 <nickstenn> ... slide 37
15:56:02 <nickstenn> ... a set of motivations from the specification
15:56:14 <nickstenn> ... such as commenting, bookmarking, highlighting, tagging, etc.
15:56:24 <nickstenn> ... slide 38
15:56:35 <nickstenn> ... we record this as oa:moticatedBy on the annotation
15:56:51 <nickstenn> ... that's the end of the core data model
15:56:55 <csillag> q+
15:56:58 <nickstenn> ... any more quesions?
15:57:03 <bigbluehat> s/moticatedBy/motivatedBy
15:57:04 <ivan> ack csillag
15:57:10 <nickstenn> s/quesions/questions/
15:57:34 <nickstenn> csillag: is there a list of the difference between bodies and targets -- what can bodies do vs targets?
15:57:48 <nickstenn> azaroth: what do you mean by "do"?
15:58:01 <nickstenn> csillag: what's the reason for the distinction?
15:58:11 <Jacob> Bodies and targets are symmetrical properties of the annotation but each has a different role with respect to the annotation.
15:58:31 <nickstenn> azaroth: you need to know [which piece annotates and which piece is annotated]
15:58:46 <nickstenn> ... but the objects have the same behaviour in RDF space
15:58:56 <Zakim> -dauwhe
15:59:23 <fjh> big thanks to Nick for excellent scribing.
15:59:29 <paoloC> +1
15:59:29 <ivan> Thanks indeed!
15:59:35 <Jacob> +1
15:59:36 <MGU> thanks !
15:59:38 <ivan> and thanks to rob for the presentation
15:59:38 <nickstenn> azaroth: please do bring up any issues and discussions on the mailing list
15:59:53 <paoloC> q+
16:00:00 <fjh> ack pauloC
16:00:08 <ivan> ack paoloC
16:00:21 <nickstenn> paoloC: question unrelated to the model -- during the week people said what they were interested in
16:00:26 <nickstenn> ... what's the plan for that data?
16:00:45 <nickstenn> azaroth: we now have all but the last two or three into my tracking spreadsheet
16:00:50 <nickstenn> ... it's reasonably well separated out
16:00:53 <fjh> +1 thanks to Rob for excellent presentation
16:01:02 <nickstenn> ... no orphaned topics, and none with vastly more interest
16:01:14 <nickstenn> ... by the end of the week i will try to have that information public
16:01:18 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:01:27 <nickstenn> s/interest/interest than others/
16:01:31 <Zakim> -Markus
16:01:32 <Zakim> -rayd
16:01:34 <Zakim> -TimCole
16:01:35 <Zakim> - +49.622.158.6.aaaa
16:01:35 <nickstenn> FIN
16:01:35 <Zakim> -azaroth
16:01:36 <Zakim> -JakeHart
16:01:39 <Zakim> -bigbluehat
16:01:41 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:01:41 <fjh> Topic: Adjourn
16:01:42 <Zakim> -Kyrce
16:01:42 <paoloC> paoloC has left #annotation
16:01:47 <Zakim> -fjh
16:01:48 <Zakim> -MGU
16:01:50 <Zakim> -Bill_Kasdorf
16:01:51 <Zakim> -Matt_Haas
16:01:55 <Zakim> -bjdmeest
16:01:56 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/01-annotation-minutes.html ivan
16:01:56 <Zakim> -nickstenn
16:02:03 <MGU> MGU has left #annotation
16:02:13 <Zakim> -chillag
16:02:24 <Zakim> -dwhly
16:04:21 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:04:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see unknown, tilgovi
16:04:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see tilgovi, scharf, csillag, rayd, Kyrce, dauwhe, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, nickstenn, ivan, KevinMarks, MarkS, dwhly, bigbluehat, tripu, Mitar, JakeHart, stain, trackbot
16:04:42 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
16:04:42 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:04:42 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Ivan, MGU, fjh, Markus, Stephane, dwhly, bjdmeest, dauwhe, Bill_Kasdorf, azaroth, Kyrce, Matt_Haas, +49.622.158.6.aaaa, unknown, nickstenn,
16:04:46 <Zakim> ... [IPcaller], bigbluehat, rayd, +1.217.300.aabb, +36.2.020.7.aacc, Jacob, chillag, +1.914.980.aadd, tilgovi, JakeHart
16:04:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:04:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/10/01-annotation-minutes.html trackbot
16:04:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:04:51 <RRSAgent> I see no action items