IRC log of svg on 2014-09-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:58:32 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
12:58:34 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
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Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
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ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()9:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
12:58:37 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
12:58:37 [trackbot]
Date: 25 September 2014
12:59:27 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()9:00AM has now started
12:59:34 [Zakim]
12:59:37 [ed]
Zakim, [IP is me
12:59:37 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
12:59:46 [Zakim]
13:00:06 [birtles]
Zakim, [ is me
13:00:06 [Zakim]
+birtles; got it
13:00:15 [Zakim]
13:00:17 [heycam]
Zakim, [ is me
13:00:17 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
13:00:52 [heycam]
13:00:54 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #svg
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13:00:59 [heycam]
Chair: Cameron
13:01:01 [Zakim]
13:01:07 [heycam]
Regrets: Rik, Thomas, Cyril
13:01:13 [stakagi]
zakim, ??P8 is me
13:01:14 [Zakim]
+stakagi; got it
13:01:15 [heycam]
Zakim, who is on the call?
13:01:15 [Zakim]
13:01:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ed, birtles, heycam, krit, stakagi, Tav
13:01:43 [Zakim]
13:02:07 [Zakim]
13:02:35 [nikos_]
Zakim, ??P5 is me
13:02:35 [Zakim]
+nikos_; got it
13:02:35 [ChrisL]
zakim, ??P5 is nikos
13:02:36 [Zakim]
I already had ??P5 as nikos_, ChrisL
13:03:11 [birtles]
scribenick: birtles
13:03:15 [birtles]
scribe: birtles
13:03:28 [birtles]
topic: Filters (implementation status, testsuite, next steps)
13:03:54 [birtles]
ChrisL: filters is obviously a widely-deployed technology in all the browsers and implementations
13:04:06 [birtles]
... so I expected the filters spec for CSS would be at a similar level of maturity
13:04:18 [birtles]
... I was looking at the testsuite and it only has 30 something tests
13:04:31 [birtles]
... presumably because they have to be reftests and have to be a certain style
13:04:36 [birtles]
... so it's not many tests
13:04:52 [birtles]
... and when I ran through them in different browsers there were so many failures
13:04:57 [birtles]
... it seemed like all failed in IE
13:05:02 [birtles]
... I was surprised to see that
13:05:11 [birtles]
... I wondered what's happenning, are the tests wrong? what's up?
13:05:21 [birtles]
krit: many reference tests for filter effects test filters in HTML
13:05:28 [birtles]
... and IE doesn't support filters in HTML
13:05:35 [birtles]
... also similar for WebKit
13:05:51 [birtles]
... and we added some new filter functions that are currently only supported in WebKit and Blink and soon in Firefox
13:06:00 [heycam] "Under consideration" for IE
13:06:00 [birtles]
... you're right we don't have a lot of tests yet
13:06:14 [birtles]
... my colleague has been working on that as part of implementing in Firefox
13:06:21 [birtles]
... so hopefully those tests can be imported
13:06:33 [birtles]
... since they should be in the right format
13:06:42 [birtles]
ChrisL: is there a repository for that?
13:06:48 [birtles]
krit: it's in the Gecko repository
13:06:52 [birtles]
... I can ask him to send the link
13:07:01 [birtles]
ChrisL: I know Opera released a lot of tests
13:07:07 [birtles]
... I wonder if any of those cover filters
13:07:19 [birtles]
ed: there might be some filter tests for I don't think there would be any for CSS filters
13:07:29 [birtles]
ChrisL: I remember that Presto did filters in HTML right?
13:07:34 [birtles]
ed: no, only internal experiments
13:07:54 [birtles]
ChrisL: well, that explains that
13:08:04 [birtles]
... Dirk you said there was something being working on?
13:08:13 [birtles]
... is this something we expect the browsers to do?
13:08:30 [birtles]
krit: there's active development in Blink but not so much in WebKit right now (probably change in the next few months)
13:08:42 [birtles]
... we want to have the same feature set
13:08:51 [birtles]
... but we are missing from the specification the order of the regions
13:08:59 [birtles]
... I have no status report from Microsoft
13:09:03 [birtles]
... it is being worked on in Blink
13:09:11 [birtles]
... currently stagnating in WebKit
13:09:15 [birtles]
... hopefully enabled soon in Firefox
13:09:20 [Zakim]
13:09:23 [birtles]
... already available in the Nightly versions
13:09:43 [birtles]
ChrisL: that's better than I feared but still
13:09:51 [birtles]
Tav: does the Firefox implementation handle shorthands?
13:09:53 [birtles]
krit: yes
13:09:55 [Zakim]
13:09:57 [birtles]
Tav: how about webkit?
13:09:58 [heycam]
Zakim, [ is me
13:09:58 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
13:10:02 [birtles]
krit: just for HTML
13:10:10 [birtles]
ed: does the Firefox support shorthands for SVG too?
13:10:11 [birtles]
krit: yes
13:10:19 [birtles]
heycam: is that working now?
13:10:25 [birtles]
krit: yes, it works
13:10:48 [birtles]
ChrisL: I was only testing Firefox beta so that would explain some test failures
13:10:56 [birtles]
... I will do another run-through with nightly
13:10:57 [heycam]
13:11:01 [birtles]
krit: there might be a flag
13:11:07 [heycam]
that is not enabled by default currently
13:11:13 [birtles]
ChrisL: do I have to enable any features on Chrome canary?
13:11:24 [birtles]
krit: it's enabled by default in Chrome canary but kind of broken
13:11:27 [birtles]
... same for webkit
13:11:45 [heycam] -- the meta bug for CSS Filters in Firefox
13:11:47 [birtles]
ChrisL: is there any specific bugs I should track?
13:12:20 [birtles]
... should I report individual test failures on that bug? or a new bug?
13:12:31 [birtles]
heycam: you can file a new bug and make it block this (the above) bug
13:13:11 [birtles]
ChrisL: the other question is, how easy is it going to be to make tests for some of these filter functions?
13:13:19 [birtles]
... like the turbulence filter
13:13:27 [birtles]
... especially if we're trying to make it produce a green square
13:13:34 [birtles]
... maybe just a PNG image comparison
13:13:40 [birtles]
krit: yes, that's difficult
13:13:45 [ed]
for blink: (tagging bugreports with "Cr-Blink-CSS-Filters" is probably good, or ping me and I'll set that tag on the bugs)
13:13:52 [birtles]
... I think Firefox has reference tests, I'm not sure how they do that
13:14:01 [birtles]
heycam: I'm not sure we have reference tests for turbulence
13:14:19 [birtles]
... but the firefox reftest system does allow you to specify tolerance to account for anti-aliasing differences etc.
13:14:25 [birtles]
... but that might not be enough
13:14:38 [birtles]
ChrisL: so it seems like there are a few outstanding spec issues
13:14:44 [birtles]
... might it go back to LC?
13:14:49 [birtles]
krit: it's currently WD
13:14:52 [birtles]
ChrisL: yes, you're right
13:15:02 [Zakim]
13:15:10 [birtles]
... I just put out a new timeline for a our charter
13:15:21 [birtles]
... which is how I discovered that filters was less advanced than I thought it would be
13:15:51 [birtles]
... Dirk, you said there was an issue about the order of filter regions
13:15:59 [Zakim]
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13:16:02 [birtles]
krit: currently we have a hard clipping region that is 10% around the object
13:16:03 [heycam]
Zakim, [ is me
13:16:03 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
13:16:16 [birtles]
... the proposal was to get rid of that and replace it with auto-computation of the bounds of the filter
13:16:22 [birtles]
... and I'm working on that auto-computation
13:16:33 [birtles]
heycam: was there still and outstanding issue about the filter resolution
13:16:46 [birtles]
krit: we removed filterRes but we still have the kernel units one
13:16:53 [birtles]
... but kernelUnitLength is needed
13:17:09 [birtles]
... it makes other parameters resolution-independent but they don't look good
13:17:23 [birtles]
... so there's still an issue but I don't think we can fix it with the current primitives we have
13:17:33 [birtles]
heycam: is it an issue of how the filters are defined?
13:17:42 [birtles]
... working on physical pixels rather than logical pixels?
13:17:49 [birtles]
krit: right, they work on physical pixels
13:18:08 [birtles]
... and if you make them work on logical pixels then you'd end up with pixelation
13:18:23 [birtles]
heycam: so is the spec going to stay as it is?
13:18:34 [birtles]
... were you planning on making any more changes to this part of the spec?
13:18:35 [birtles]
krit: no
13:19:00 [birtles]
... the primitives that are affected by that are feConvolveMatrix and fePointLight or one of the lighting filters
13:19:18 [birtles]
ed: diffuse lighting I think
13:19:24 [birtles]
krit: oh yes, that's right
13:19:34 [ed]
specularlighting too
13:19:38 [birtles]
heycam: do you need any help/planning with regards to the test suite
13:19:45 [birtles]
krit: help is always welcome
13:19:51 [birtles]
heycam: do you need it?
13:19:58 [birtles]
krit: the spec definitely needs tests
13:20:12 [birtles]
... occasionally I try to write tests but the specification is still much larger than the number of tests we have
13:20:18 [birtles]
... so if someone is willing, yes please
13:20:38 [birtles]
ChrisL: I'm willing to do it but I'm trying to work out to make them into suitable reftests
13:20:55 [birtles]
krit: it might be good to start by looking at Firefox's reftests
13:21:02 [birtles]
... can Firefox use pixel tests?
13:21:15 [birtles]
heycam: you can always do that by putting a raster in the reference
13:21:35 [birtles]
krit: in WebKit and Blink we definitely use pixel tests because it's easier but it's not cross-browser
13:22:05 [heycam]
13:22:38 [birtles]
heycam: some filters are easier to test as reftests than others
13:22:54 [birtles]
... e.g. the color transform tests just do it on a solid color fill
13:23:12 [birtles]
krit: but even that could differ on other implementations, by on RGB value
13:23:32 [birtles]
heycam: so you can't specify pixel tolerances for the web-platform-tests setup?
13:23:46 [birtles]
krit: you can exploit that pixels have to be clamped to within [0..255]
13:24:06 [birtles]
... and produce a test that puts you in that range
13:24:31 [birtles]
ChrisL: I can see the advantage of automated tests but it makes writing the tests hard
13:24:40 [birtles]
... and boring
13:24:48 [birtles]
Tav: I thought we agreed to have both (automated and manual)
13:24:55 [birtles]
krit: but then how do you deliver the tests?
13:25:14 [birtles]
heycam: we had that in the past, we asked people to eyeball the tests
13:25:42 [birtles]
ChrisL: web-platform-tests doesn't allow multiple references like the CSS tests do
13:25:54 [birtles]
... it allows you to say it should match one or more references
13:26:31 [birtles]
... I remember that when we first did filters there were a lot of images exchanged and equations specced so that we had two implementations that were roughly pixel equivalent
13:26:45 [birtles]
heycam: well ideally the definitions of the filter primitives are precise enough that you could say that
13:26:55 [birtles]
... the results should equal a certain image +/- a tolerance
13:27:12 [birtles]
... we could just add raster images and then work out what to do when it comes to automating
13:27:21 [birtles]
... since we don't have automation yet anyway
13:27:31 [birtles]
... maybe we don't need to worry about 1 pixel differences just yet
13:28:00 [birtles]
ChrisL: well there are almost no tests at the moment so it would be better to have something people can argue over
13:28:33 [birtles]
... I thought of a way to test feDisplacement by covering a red rectangle
13:28:55 [birtles]
heycam: some of the specs Adobe works on include a testing plan...
13:29:00 [birtles]
krit: not for filters yet
13:29:22 [birtles]
heycam: suppose you wanted to get help with testing, it would be helpful to have a list of what still needs testing
13:29:44 [birtles]
ChrisL: when you look at the tests, the metadata in the tests tells you which section it covers
13:29:56 [birtles]
heycam: so we could start by picking a section that doesn't have any tests
13:30:08 [birtles]
ChrisL: we should also have tests to cover SVG, not just HTML
13:30:31 [birtles]
... thanks for the status update, that's helpful
13:31:18 [birtles]
topic: SVG charter
13:31:29 [birtles]
ChrisL: the charter went out just recently
13:31:36 [birtles]
... there's been a change in the W3C
13:31:51 [birtles]
... every charter that goes out needs to have positive responses from at least 5% of membership
13:32:02 [birtles]
... which equals about 20 members
13:32:14 [birtles]
... so please push your AC reps to respond
13:33:27 [birtles]
topic: accessibility TF
13:33:43 [ed]
question: Should there be a Co-Facilitator? If so, I would expect the SVG
13:33:44 [ed]
Chairs would wish to nominate someone?
13:33:44 [birtles]
ed: there was a mail about the accessibility TF asking who should lead this work from the SVG side
13:34:03 [birtles]
heycam: so they're looking for a co-facilitator from our side?
13:34:05 [birtles]
ed: yes
13:34:56 [birtles]
heycam: if Rich is going to be heavily involved in the TF then I'd be happy for him to take it on if he feels comfortable with it
13:35:07 [birtles]
... I'll send a mail to Rich
13:35:16 [birtles]
ChrisL: who else is going to be on it?
13:35:30 [birtles]
heycam: I'll follow the mailing list
13:35:41 [birtles]
krit: I'll be on the call and join the mailing list
13:36:05 [Zakim]
13:36:38 [birtles]
topic: text and CSS boxes
13:36:56 [birtles]
Tav: CSS has blocks and inlines
13:37:13 [birtles]
... do SVG <text> elements behave as blocks and <tspans> as inlines?
13:37:22 [birtles]
heycam: that's roughly how it works internally in Firefox
13:37:39 [ChrisL]
<text> is block, <tspan> is inline
13:37:43 [birtles]
Tav: I was just wondering how to apply some of the CSS properties like line-height to SVG
13:38:14 [birtles]
heycam: if you have specific questions about properties then they would be good things to bring up
13:38:43 [birtles]
topic: TPAC
13:38:57 [birtles]
ChrisL: I updated the wiki so we have a page for the TPAC now
13:39:13 [birtles]
nikos_: do we know when the FXTF meeting is?
13:39:27 [birtles]
ChrisL: no, but it seems like it might be during the SVG part of the week
13:39:37 [birtles]
heycam: I recall something like that
13:39:43 [birtles]
... I'll send an email about that
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13:41:00 [Zakim]
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GA_SVGWG()9:00AM has ended
13:41:01 [Zakim]
Attendees were [IPcaller], ed, birtles, heycam, krit, stakagi, Tav, ChrisL, nikos_
13:41:06 [birtles]
RRSAgent: make minutes public
13:41:06 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', birtles. Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:41:16 [heycam]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:41:37 [birtles]
RRSAgent: make minutes
13:41:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate birtles
13:42:19 [birtles]
regrets: Rik, Thomas, Cyril
13:42:31 [birtles]
apologies: Rik, Thomas, Cyril
13:42:41 [birtles]
RRSAgent: make minutes
13:42:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate birtles
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