IRC log of html-media on 2014-09-23
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:58:32 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #html-media
- 14:58:32 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/23-html-media-irc
- 14:58:34 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 14:58:34 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #html-media
- 14:58:36 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be 63342
- 14:58:36 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
- 14:58:37 [trackbot]
- Meeting: HTML Media Task Force Teleconference
- 14:58:37 [trackbot]
- Date: 23 September 2014
- 14:58:47 [paulc]
- zakim, this is HTML_WG
- 14:58:47 [Zakim]
- ok, paulc; that matches HTML_WG()11:00AM
- 14:59:21 [paulc]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Sep/0017.html
- 14:59:27 [paulc]
- zakim, what is the code?
- 14:59:27 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 63342 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), paulc
- 14:59:29 [Zakim]
- + +1.215.286.aaaa
- 14:59:55 [joesteele]
- joesteele has joined #html-media
- 15:00:02 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 15:00:08 [paulc]
- zakim, [Microsoft] is me
- 15:00:08 [Zakim]
- +paulc; got it
- 15:00:16 [paulc]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 15:00:16 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see jdsmith, +1.215.286.aaaa, paulc
- 15:00:27 [joesteele]
- Zakim, aaaa is me
- 15:00:27 [Zakim]
- +joesteele; got it
- 15:00:43 [paulc]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Sep/0017.html
- 15:00:44 [joesteele]
- scribe: joesteele
- 15:00:51 [joesteele]
- chair: paulc
- 15:01:30 [davide]
- davide has joined #html-media
- 15:01:58 [ddorwin]
- ddorwin has joined #html-media
- 15:02:02 [markw]
- markw has joined #html-media
- 15:02:40 [Zakim]
- +davide
- 15:03:02 [Zakim]
- +markw
- 15:03:14 [Zakim]
- +ddorwin
- 15:03:52 [paulc]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 15:03:52 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see jdsmith, joesteele, paulc, davide, markw, ddorwin
- 15:04:02 [joesteele]
- Topic: role call
- 15:04:10 [joesteele]
- Topic: agenda
- 15:04:16 [paulc]
- rrsagent, generate the minutes
- 15:04:16 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/23-html-media-minutes.html paulc
- 15:04:49 [paulc]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Sep/0017.html
- 15:04:53 [joesteele]
- topic: Eme status and bugs
- 15:05:52 [paulc]
- Bugs: http://tinyurl.com/7tfambo
- 15:06:00 [joesteele]
- paulc: looks like 18-19 bugs
- 15:06:13 [joesteele]
- ... any recent changes from the editors?
- 15:06:32 [paulc]
- Current editor's draft: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html
- 15:06:38 [joesteele]
- ddorwin: recent edit was just a fix for the events that were not split up
- 15:07:04 [joesteele]
- topic: Bug 26776 - Diagnosing and resolving CDM errors needs a numeric systemCode (deleted with MediaKeyError)
- 15:07:29 [paulc]
- Bug 26776 - Diagnosing and resolving CDM errors needs a numeric systemCode (deleted with MediaKeyError)
- 15:07:51 [joesteele]
- paulc: Mark asked some questions in comment 5 -- thnk they were answered in comment 6
- 15:07:57 [joesteele]
- s/thnk/think/
- 15:08:09 [joesteele]
- paulc: Mark did you get what you needed?
- 15:08:36 [joesteele]
- markw: think so, i f I understand what they are saying
- 15:08:45 [paulc]
- latest question is in: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26776#c7
- 15:08:47 [joesteele]
- ... implies that anything like DOMEception might not be a good match though
- 15:09:08 [joesteele]
- paulc: any other opinions on this? here or in the bug would work
- 15:09:37 [joesteele]
- jdsmith: I have been meaning to make a proposal, will try to summarize with a proposal going forward
- 15:09:50 [joesteele]
- topic: Bug 26811 - Separate definitions of Initialization Data Types from Stream Format parsing
- 15:10:06 [joesteele]
- paulc: spun off from 26738
- 15:10:08 [paulc]
- https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26811
- 15:10:54 [paulc]
- Backburner proposal: We should have a table and page for Initialization Data Types and separate pages for stream/container parsing information. Maybe we can use the MIME type as the index for a table pointing to the latter pages.
- 15:10:59 [joesteele]
- ddorwin: this is just a separation of the registry, on the back burner now as it does not affect the main spec
- 15:11:16 [joesteele]
- paulc: so this is lower priority
- 15:11:36 [joesteele]
- topic: Bug 26887 (new from Jerry)
- 15:11:43 [paulc]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Sep/0019.html
- 15:12:29 [paulc]
- Very recent response from Mark: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26887#c1
- 15:12:30 [joesteele]
- jdsmith: I want repeat whats in the bug - issue I raised is that we have been trying to make the session load model work for our implementation and it does not work
- 15:13:00 [joesteele]
- ... our model the license server controls things like this, for secure release we have a condition in the license itself that controls the secure release
- 15:13:04 [ddorwin]
- q+ to clarify whether this bug is specifically about Netflix' secure proof of key release or (also) something else (i.e. offline in general)?
- 15:13:13 [joesteele]
- ... session type for us does not make sense, reloading does not make sense
- 15:13:35 [joesteele]
- ... temporary licenses would still be compatible with secure release, does not fit the model today
- 15:14:07 [joesteele]
- ... we have been working on a proposal for the app to query that data about secure release information not yet complete
- 15:14:32 [joesteele]
- ... problem it raises is that between that model and the app-centric model have not come up with a common abstraction yet
- 15:14:46 [joesteele]
- ... have a draft proposal that discusses enumerating but have not posted yet
- 15:15:02 [joesteele]
- paulc: I put a link to marks coments
- 15:15:04 [paulc]
- ack dd
- 15:15:04 [Zakim]
- ddorwin, you wanted to clarify whether this bug is specifically about Netflix' secure proof of key release or (also) something else (i.e. offline in general)?
- 15:15:05 [markw]
- q+
- 15:15:10 [joesteele]
- ddorwin: my comments are also in the queue
- 15:15:35 [joesteele]
- ... is this specifically about the Netflix secure proof of key release case? or something else?
- 15:15:54 [joesteele]
- jdsmith: there are similar issues with offline playback, but tried to focus on the secure key release
- 15:16:14 [joesteele]
- ... we would prefer the keys to just be re-used automatically
- 15:16:32 [joesteele]
- ddorwin: have discussed many times on many threads but have not come up with a better proposal
- 15:16:56 [joesteele]
- ... persistent sessions are not the same as persistent licenses -- Mark has cleaned up that text
- 15:17:08 [joesteele]
- ... some ambiguity maybe still needs to be addressed
- 15:17:09 [paulc]
- ack markw
- 15:17:12 [joesteele]
- q+
- 15:17:28 [joesteele]
- Markw: don't see a problem with a superset of the two models
- 15:17:46 [joesteele]
- ... clear that license server gets to approve any persistence, also approves any expected key release
- 15:17:59 [joesteele]
- ...question is how much can the application exercise control
- 15:18:08 [joesteele]
- s/...question/... question/
- 15:18:23 [joesteele]
- markw: we also need some concept of the group of keys that have been installed
- 15:18:41 [joesteele]
- ... need to be able to associate the original session with the group of keys
- 15:19:23 [joesteele]
- ... can't be entirely be opaque -- the application needs to know that this is a key release related to that earlier session
- 15:19:27 [ddorwin]
- q+ to note that the current text is designed to provide the app control while allowing the license to specify the exact details (for robustness reasons). Basically, what Mark said I believe.
- 15:19:47 [paulc]
- ack joe
- 15:20:13 [markw]
- s/associate the original session with the group of keys/associate the original session with the key release messages/
- 15:20:15 [paulc]
- Joe: I agree with Jerry's bug that we have had problems with loading persistent keys
- 15:20:29 [paulc]
- ... it is possible to do but ungaimly
- 15:21:00 [paulc]
- ... We expect that keys will be discovered automatically and don't expect the app to know what keys need for a particular content
- 15:21:10 [joesteele]
- s/ungaimly/ungainly/
- 15:21:24 [paulc]
- ... the current model seems to imply the app needs this information BUT it is does not say it explicitly
- 15:21:51 [ddorwin]
- The current text is designed to provide the app control while allowing the license to specify the exact details (for robustness reasons). Basically, what Mark said I believe.
- 15:21:55 [paulc]
- ack dd
- 15:21:55 [Zakim]
- ddorwin, you wanted to note that the current text is designed to provide the app control while allowing the license to specify the exact details (for robustness reasons).
- 15:21:59 [Zakim]
- ... Basically, what Mark said I believe.
- 15:21:59 [joesteele]
- ddorwin: pasting my comments ...
- 15:22:03 [ddorwin]
- As with all other web APIs, the application must be in control. What Joe said is by design.
- 15:22:19 [ddorwin]
- The current text is designed to provide the app control while allowing the license to specify the exact details (for robustness reasons).
- 15:22:44 [ddorwin]
- I think htis is what Mark described.
- 15:22:45 [ddorwin]
- The important thing is that the application knows what will happen and the behavior is consistent across implementations.
- 15:22:48 [joesteele]
- ddorwin: what Mark described is in the spec
- 15:23:24 [joesteele]
- ... it is intentional that the license cannot tell you to store things when you did not request a persistent license
- 15:23:33 [joesteele]
- ... the important thing is that the application is in control
- 15:23:41 [markw]
- q+
- 15:23:44 [joesteele]
- ... consistent with other web APIs
- 15:23:44 [ddorwin]
- s/htis/this/
- 15:23:47 [jdsmith]
- q+
- 15:24:04 [joesteele]
- ... don't think some things should just be loaded
- 15:24:05 [paulc]
- ack markw
- 15:24:17 [joesteele]
- markw: if we did remove loadSession --
- 15:24:48 [joesteele]
- ... if it was made clear that reloading was happening when createSession reloaded a perisstent license, would that meet your need for application control?
- 15:24:51 [joesteele]
- ... if not why?
- 15:25:50 [joesteele]
- ddorwin: I think generateRequest() would take initiData and then say we loaded it, might be ok from a web api model, but then we have some ambiguity
- 15:26:05 [joesteele]
- markw: is that ambiuguity ok from the point of loading?
- 15:26:23 [joesteele]
- ... maybe still have something explicitly for key release
- 15:26:33 [joesteele]
- ddorwin: would need to store the iniData in your app for key release?
- 15:26:34 [joesteele]
- q+
- 15:26:54 [joesteele]
- ddorwin: offline pinning case would be similar -- you would have two models
- 15:27:15 [joesteele]
- ... would like to hear from Joe and Jerry what specific use cases we would want to use initData in
- 15:27:59 [joesteele]
- jdsmith: I focused the bug on the secure release, but the offline playback case -- a transaction happens
- 15:28:27 [joesteele]
- ... where a persistent license is issued, we would recognize that it is persistent whether or not the app recognized it
- 15:28:42 [joesteele]
- ... the server would drive the storage
- 15:28:54 [joesteele]
- ... they were issued and the service directed the client to store them
- 15:29:20 [joesteele]
- ... they should be reusable in the easiest manner possible, would be positive that in session startup they are discovered and reused
- 15:29:43 [joesteele]
- ... don't understand marks comment about the key release obligation
- 15:30:53 [ddorwin]
- How does the application manage the license? For example, to unpin?
- 15:30:53 [joesteele]
- ddorwin: my understanding is that in jerrys model the licenses are persisted and used, but how does the application manage the license?
- 15:31:35 [joesteele]
- jdsmith: that is part of the CDM awareness of the persistent licenses stored - would like to see a specific API for enumerating and removing
- 15:31:40 [markw]
- q+
- 15:31:50 [paulc]
- ack jd
- 15:31:50 [joesteele]
- ddorwin: I would be interested in seeing that
- 15:32:33 [paulc]
- Joe: From the use cases perspective, I would like to see the InitData retained in two cases:
- 15:32:59 [paulc]
- a) if the app wants to release keys it would be useful for the apps to have the InitData
- 15:33:44 [paulc]
- b) in line with what Jerry said, when you acquire keys then you would provide the InitData
- 15:33:46 [Zakim]
- -ddorwin
- 15:34:15 [paulc]
- ... The CDN should be able to find the keys from the supplied InitData
- 15:34:31 [Zakim]
- +ddorwin
- 15:34:44 [paulc]
- ... I want the app to be able to say explicitly say if the keys should be persisted (since the user may be on a public computer and the CDN does not know this)
- 15:35:03 [Zakim]
- -ddorwin
- 15:35:18 [paulc]
- ... The app may not want to cache a persistent key so the CDN should not always assume this is being done
- 15:35:28 [Zakim]
- + +1.425.605.aabb
- 15:35:36 [ddorwin]
- zakim, aabb is me
- 15:35:36 [Zakim]
- +ddorwin; got it
- 15:35:52 [paulc]
- ack mark
- 15:36:05 [joesteele]
- markw: re: Jerrys question about associated information with the keys
- 15:36:35 [joesteele]
- ... we associated some information with the session the keys were originally requested in -- we need to maintain that association when the keys are released
- 15:37:00 [joesteele]
- ... needs to be some notion of a group of keys which needs to be associated with that original session data
- 15:37:02 [jdsmith]
- q+
- 15:37:11 [joesteele]
- ack joesteele
- 15:37:11 [paulc]
- ack joe
- 15:37:31 [paulc]
- ack jd
- 15:37:46 [joesteele]
- jdsmith: re: Joe's comment about app having control
- 15:38:09 [joesteele]
- ... in our view the app participates in determining what type of license gets issued, but not necessarily getting stored
- 15:38:31 [joesteele]
- ... something like a buy/purchase that aligns the license type with the session type
- 15:38:58 [joesteele]
- ... want to avoid having the app create a session where storage is authorized but the app is not allowed to request that type of license
- 15:39:32 [joesteele]
- ... re: marks comment -- we have retained the idea that the app would retain the information that the information that the license were removed using
- 15:39:51 [ddorwin]
- q+
- 15:39:58 [paulc]
- ack dd
- 15:40:04 [joesteele]
- markw: that would work
- 15:40:09 [joesteele]
- ddorwin: pasting --
- 15:40:14 [ddorwin]
- Counterexample to not needing app control: There have been real problems with PlayReady servers being configured to send persistent licenses (possibly to get some related behavior) and unexpectedly leaving licenses on the client causing problems.
- 15:40:29 [joesteele]
- ... this is an example of the app not needing to be in control or not needing to be persistent
- 15:40:38 [joesteele]
- ... unexpected licenses on the client is a real concern
- 15:40:50 [markw]
- markw has joined #html-media
- 15:40:56 [joesteele]
- ... especially when app and server teams are different
- 15:41:11 [joesteele]
- paulc: spent 30min on this -- should we continue or move on?
- 15:41:32 [joesteele]
- ... any recommendations on which item we could go to next?
- 15:41:49 [joesteele]
- ... security bugs or new bug from David?
- 15:42:11 [ddorwin]
- I will send emails on bug 25923 and bug 26372 this week. Please provide feedback and suggestions
- 15:42:16 [joesteele]
- topic: Bug 26838
- 15:42:38 [joesteele]
- jdsmith: on last bug -- referred to a proposal we are drafting -- will post it
- 15:42:43 [paulc]
- https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26838#c2
- 15:43:11 [joesteele]
- paulc: comment 2 had some pointers to changes made
- 15:43:28 [joesteele]
- ... Joe responded with questions this morning
- 15:43:34 [paulc]
- Joe's questions in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26838#c3
- 15:43:54 [joesteele]
- ddorwin: I was aware of the things you mentioned -- Joe's format cannot be validated or pre-parsed
- 15:44:04 [joesteele]
- ... that is why there are SHOULDs in that text
- 15:44:18 [joesteele]
- ... can he tell us why it is encrypted?
- 15:44:46 [paulc]
- Joe: In our case the only thing that is encrypted is the keys
- 15:44:58 [paulc]
- ... The context is that metadata can be delivered separate
- 15:45:18 [paulc]
- ... The metadata can be provided in a manifest separately
- 15:45:43 [paulc]
- ... The policies in the metadata may be confidential and therefore some customers want it encrypted
- 15:45:58 [paulc]
- ... David: Why shouldn't the customer see the policy?
- 15:46:16 [paulc]
- ... No it is hide the metadata in transit.
- 15:46:34 [paulc]
- David: Maybe HTTPS would be a better solution for transfering the manifest
- 15:46:46 [paulc]
- Joe: My concern is more about the signature
- 15:46:56 [paulc]
- David: That is why there is an AND/OR in the text.
- 15:47:42 [paulc]
- Joe: My first concern about the proprietary nature of the PSSH - you may need need an NDA to get the format
- 15:48:11 [paulc]
- ... it might be hard to implement in an OSS browser if the code exposes the proprietary format of the PSSH
- 15:48:22 [paulc]
- Joe: The Initidata can be under NDA as well
- 15:48:54 [paulc]
- ... it is relatively recent (4-5 years) that solutions to private InitData are provided
- 15:49:05 [paulc]
- ... older CDN's likely have these private formats
- 15:49:26 [ddorwin]
- s/CDN's/CDMs/
- 15:50:20 [paulc]
- Joe; i will go back and review it with this input
- 15:50:55 [paulc]
- ... My concern is that making it a SHOULD may make it not applicable to Adobe and MSFT - not sure about Google
- 15:51:11 [paulc]
- David: These could be useful hints to the implementer
- 15:51:36 [paulc]
- Joe: Having a hint to an implementer is okay
- 15:51:50 [paulc]
- ... I will add my concern but I am not blocking the solution moving forward
- 15:52:04 [joesteele]
- paulc: going back to the agenda
- 15:52:26 [joesteele]
- ... Joe appealed for more discussion on the HTTPS issue -- more came in
- 15:52:32 [joesteele]
- ... be aware of the TAG comments
- 15:52:57 [joesteele]
- Topic: Bug 26738
- 15:53:00 [paulc]
- https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26738
- 15:53:13 [paulc]
- Paul: I think we have dealt with the Patent Policy question and can now return to the original technical request.
- 15:53:57 [joesteele]
- ... extending it to covers MPEG2 Commoon encryption is ok as long as that does not imply it is mandatory
- 15:54:11 [joesteele]
- ... should restate any objections so that folks who care can provide feedback
- 15:54:30 [joesteele]
- ddorwin: someone needs to writeup how this information is extracted
- 15:54:49 [joesteele]
- paulc: ask the TF for that -- maybe Bob will respond as he has been active
- 15:55:33 [joesteele]
- paulc: any particular bugs we should move on?
- 15:55:47 [joesteele]
- ddorwin: title of A has changed to reflct what we have been talking about
- 15:55:48 [ddorwin]
- I will send emails on bug 25923 and bug 26372 this week. Please provide feedback and suggestions
- 15:55:59 [paulc]
- Title of 26738 is now Add entry for MPEG-2 TS CENC to the Stream Format Registry
- 15:56:05 [joesteele]
- ... trying to get clarification on Object.observe
- 15:56:25 [joesteele]
- ... there is agreement we want to address just trying to figure out how
- 15:56:39 [joesteele]
- ... please comment on those bugs
- 15:57:07 [joesteele]
- paulc: 24771 is an old bug -- you said you will make the change after the re-org -- is this in your pending queue?
- 15:57:19 [joesteele]
- ddorwin: yes, trying to get the design issues out of the way first
- 15:57:20 [paulc]
- https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24771#c5 is behind other large design issues.
- 15:57:28 [joesteele]
- paulc: one last item
- 15:57:40 [joesteele]
- topic: HTML F2F meeting October 30-31
- 15:57:53 [joesteele]
- paulc: Think Media TF will meet during TPAC week
- 15:58:15 [joesteele]
- ... don't expect confirmation now -- will start a thread to collect opinions and for how long
- 15:58:48 [joesteele]
- ... if you are planning to stay at the conference hotel, block booking is released on Oct 3rd
- 15:58:55 [joesteele]
- ... any comments?
- 15:59:22 [joesteele]
- paulc: I will start a thread to discus next week
- 15:59:26 [joesteele]
- I would attend
- 15:59:36 [paulc]
- rrsagent, generate the minutes
- 15:59:36 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/23-html-media-minutes.html paulc
- 15:59:56 [Zakim]
- -davide
- 15:59:57 [Zakim]
- -joesteele
- 15:59:58 [Zakim]
- -ddorwin
- 16:00:00 [Zakim]
- -jdsmith
- 16:00:11 [Zakim]
- -markw
- 16:00:39 [joesteele]
- s/i f I /if i /
- 16:00:48 [joesteele]
- rrsagent: generate minutes
- 16:00:48 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/23-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
- 16:01:38 [davide]
- davide has left #html-media
- 16:01:51 [joesteele]
- Zakim, bye
- 16:01:51 [Zakim]
- leaving. As of this point the attendees were jdsmith, +1.215.286.aaaa, paulc, joesteele, davide, markw, ddorwin, +1.425.605.aabb
- 16:01:51 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #html-media
- 16:02:01 [joesteele]
- rrsagent: generate minutes
- 16:02:01 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/23-html-media-minutes.html joesteele
- 16:02:07 [joesteele]
- rrsagent: bye
- 16:02:07 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items