14:44:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:44:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-html-a11y-irc
14:44:49 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:44:51 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
14:44:51 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 44 minutes ago
14:44:52 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:44:52 <trackbot> Date: 11 September 2014
14:45:22 <janina> agenda?
14:45:34 <janina> zakim, clear agenda
14:45:34 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:45:39 <janina> Chair: Janina
14:45:39 <janina> agenda+ Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
14:45:42 <janina> agenda+ TPAC 2014
14:45:44 <janina> agenda+ Longdesc CR Progress
14:45:47 <janina> agenda+ Our Alt Note http://rawgit.com/w3c/alt-techniques/master/index.html
14:45:49 <janina> agenda+ Enumerating Event Handlers on Elements
14:45:52 <janina> agenda+ Captcha
14:45:54 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
14:45:57 <janina> agenda+ Identify Chair and Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
14:46:00 <janina> agenda+ be done
14:46:33 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
14:46:40 <Zakim> +??P3
14:46:48 <janina>  zakim, ??P3 is me
14:46:48 <Zakim> +janina; got it
14:46:55 <janina> zakim, next item
14:46:55 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
14:51:05 <David> David has joined #html-a11y
14:53:08 <paulc> paulc has joined #html-a11y
14:55:08 <Zakim> -janina
14:55:10 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended
14:55:10 <Zakim> Attendees were janina
14:55:41 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
14:55:48 <Zakim> +??P3
14:55:53 <janina> zakim, ??P3 is me
14:55:53 <Zakim> +janina; got it
14:57:40 <Judy> Judy has joined #html-a11y
14:58:20 <Zakim> +Judy
14:58:48 <rubys1> rubys1 has joined #html-a11y
14:59:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #html-a11y
14:59:27 <Zakim> +Sam
14:59:46 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:00:56 <Zakim> +ShaneM
15:01:12 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
15:01:18 <janina> xregrets: Mark_Sadecki
15:01:19 <Zakim> +Adrian_Roselli
15:01:26 <aardrian> aardrian has joined #html-a11y
15:01:46 <janina> regrets: Mark_Sadecki
15:02:40 <janina> zakim, take up item 1
15:02:40 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
15:02:48 <ShaneM_> ScribeNick: ShaneM
15:03:05 <ShaneM_> ScribeNick: ShaneM_
15:03:09 <ShaneM_> zakim, close item 1
15:03:10 <Zakim> agendum 1, Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List, closed
15:03:11 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:03:11 <Zakim> 2. TPAC 2014 [from janina]
15:03:13 <ShaneM_> zakim, next item
15:03:13 <Zakim> agendum 2. "TPAC 2014" taken up [from janina]
15:03:52 <paulc> zakim, what is the code?
15:03:52 <Zakim> the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), paulc
15:03:53 <ShaneM_> Already identified some potential topics.  Should be a good opportunity for joint meetings at TPAC.
15:04:25 <ShaneM_> zakim, next item
15:04:25 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Longdesc CR Progress" taken up [from janina]
15:04:26 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:04:40 <paulc> zakim, [Microsoft] is me
15:04:40 <Zakim> +paulc; got it
15:05:01 <ShaneM_> Call for consensus closed last night.
15:05:19 <ShaneM_> We did get 4 negative responses.  More than 4 positive responses.
15:05:32 <ShaneM_> There needs to be a telecon during the CfC.  That is this call.
15:06:48 <Zakim> +John_Foliot
15:07:12 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
15:07:21 <ShaneM_> There is no directors decision yet on the FO.
15:07:43 <ShaneM_> One CfC comment was that the document cannot proceed to the next phase until the FO decision is issued.
15:07:50 <JF> JF has joined #html-a11y
15:07:58 <ShaneM_> that's why the chairs asked for an expedited decision by the director.
15:08:46 <ShaneM_> it should be handled prior to the transition request - where that is the request to the AB for transition to PR.
15:09:17 <Zakim> +Liam
15:09:30 <ShaneM_> basically, it is in process.
15:09:33 <ShaneM_> zakim, next item
15:09:33 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Our Alt Note http://rawgit.com/w3c/alt-techniques/master/index.html" taken up [from janina]
15:10:26 <Judy> s/that's why the chairs asked/that is consistent with the action already requested by the TF Co-Facilitators and I believe supported by the HTML WG Chairs/
15:11:27 <ShaneM_> this document still need some edits.
15:11:54 <ShaneM_> janina: Can Liam make these edits?
15:11:59 <ShaneM_> liam: yes, next week.
15:12:03 <ShaneM_> zakim, next item
15:12:03 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Captcha" taken up [from janina]
15:12:06 <Judy> s/for transition to PR/for transition to PR, but in this case we're also trying to get it addressed prior to the CfC in the HTML WG/
15:13:06 <janina> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/CAPTCHA_v2
15:13:52 <ShaneM_> janina: might want to update the note.  there are change that have been made to make them more accessible.
15:14:10 <David> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Captcha_Alternatives_and_thoughts
15:14:15 <ShaneM_> ... for example some services will offer to call you or send an SMS.  there's room to update.
15:14:30 <David> we've discussed it in WCAG
15:14:56 <ShaneM_> ... seem to gets back burnered a lot by PF.  Maybe this is something the task force could take up.
15:15:08 <ShaneM_> Cyns: COGA has done some thinking about it.
15:15:18 <ShaneM_> David: WCAG has as well
15:15:22 <Judy> q+
15:15:26 <ShaneM_> janina: could someone help update the wiki?
15:15:40 <janina> q?
15:15:44 <ShaneM_> ack j
15:16:11 <ShaneM_> Judy: glad to hear that multiple groups are thinking about this, but also concerned that there is duplicate work going on
15:16:32 <ShaneM_> ... if WAI groups are working on this sending that info to the coordination group would help that everyone knows what is being done
15:17:41 <ShaneM_> ... this is a very high priority for doing something about this in China, for example.
15:17:50 <janina> q?
15:18:28 <ShaneM_> ... whatever comes out next with regard to CAPTCHA guidance should have more practical guidance.  Techniques that could help make sure that developers have a good example they can grab and go with.
15:18:35 <ShaneM_> q+ to ask about webdeveloper.org
15:19:20 <ShaneM_> janina: techniques alone are a good enough reason to republish.  There are lots of new options that we can help people use effectively.
15:19:22 <ShaneM_> ack s
15:19:22 <Zakim> ShaneM_, you wanted to ask about webdeveloper.org
15:20:47 <ShaneM_> ShaneM_: If this is for the public isn't webplatform.org a good place to help developers with good examples?
15:22:16 <ShaneM_> Judy: well - it should be delivered in a many places.  webplatform.org is one.  and many groups can be working on this. They just should be coordinating.
15:22:18 <JF> JF notes that its not duplicate effort, but rather complimentary efforts
15:22:21 <JF> Q+
15:22:52 <Judy> q?
15:22:52 <janina> ack l
15:23:26 <ShaneM_> There is some deployment of the audio backing / sms messages as an a11y assist.  google, ebay, microsoft were examples.  not sure how international it is.
15:23:46 <ShaneM_> liam: there are some assumptions that sms messages are ubiquitous and cheap, and that's just not true.
15:23:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:23:58 <ShaneM_> janina: well we have a principle that there should always be multiple solutions.
15:24:31 <ShaneM_> JF: we are seeing a transition to multi-factor authentication.  that's one of the places where SMS is coming in.  CAPTCHA is sort of a way to have more perceived security.
15:24:38 <Zakim> -Liam
15:24:54 <Zakim> +Liam
15:24:56 <ShaneM_> ... examples are a text with a code, or they will call you with a digitized thing, or an email with the MF authentication information.
15:25:11 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #html-a11y
15:25:57 <LJWatson> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:25:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see janina, Judy, Sam, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, ShaneM, David_MacDonald, Adrian_Roselli, paulc, John_Foliot, Cynthia_Shelly, Liam, [IPcaller]
15:25:58 <ShaneM_> ... it is possible we can help people move away from CAPTCHA when security is a goal, instead looking at more modern MF authentication techniques.
15:26:03 <ShaneM_> q?
15:26:07 <ShaneM_> ack JF
15:26:08 <JF> ack jf
15:26:20 <ShaneM_> janina: sounds like there is good interest in updating this note.
15:26:46 <Judy> q+
15:26:50 <janina> q?
15:26:55 <janina> ack ju
15:27:20 <ShaneM_> Judy: is there a specific TF piece of this?  Or is this just FYI to the task force?
15:27:45 <ShaneM_> janina: no - we are looking at places where to focus our energies in this task force.  Updating this document might be such a task force activity.
15:28:30 <LJWatson> zakim, [IPcaller] is LJWatson
15:28:30 <Zakim> +LJWatson; got it
15:29:19 <ShaneM_> janina: the next step is to pull together the pieces from the 5.1 opportunities wiki to decide priorities and who is going to do what
15:29:21 <ShaneM_> zakim, next item
15:29:21 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Other Business" taken up [from janina]
15:29:41 <paulc> q+
15:29:53 <ShaneM_> Topic: Event Enumeration
15:29:56 <paulc> q-
15:30:37 <ShaneM_> janina: we are discussing this because there is A11Y interest in being able to find registered events, and the HTML working group owns the DOM spec now.
15:31:05 <ShaneM_> richardschwerdtfeger: we need to be able to determine if there are certain classes of event handlers (e.g., keyboard handler) are registered on an element.
15:31:26 <ShaneM_> ... important for checking design patterns, useful for IndieUI, and useful for ARIA 2.0
15:31:55 <ShaneM_> ... we need to know, for example, if there is a mouse handler.  and if there is, then there had better been a keyboard handler as well.
15:34:16 <ShaneM_> ShaneM_: there seem to be objections to the based upon security concerns.  It would make it easier to intercept or supplant handlers with man in the middle style attacks.
15:34:48 <ShaneM_> janina: it would be nice if we could discuss this at TPAC to see if there is a way forward.
15:35:00 <paulc> q+
15:35:08 <ShaneM_> ... note that it would also help with a11y checkers and validators.
15:35:21 <janina> q?
15:35:23 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
15:35:30 <janina> ack l
15:35:30 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to note a large part of html5 is to end that
15:35:36 <ShaneM_> liam: a large part of the html5 work is to make things work the same across all browsers
15:36:00 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
15:36:07 <janina> ack p
15:36:12 <paulc> From the DOM4 spec; "This document is published as a snapshot of the DOM Living Standard with the intent of keeping the differences from the original to a strict minimum, and only through subsetting (only things that are not implemented were removed for this publication). "
15:36:15 <ShaneM_> ... it is not okay if things work differently.  Browser specialization is the opposite of what we want to achieve.
15:36:28 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-a11y
15:37:30 <ShaneM_> paulc: DOM4 is a strict subset of the DOM living standard.  If we need to make changes the DOM it may be difficult to get that done.
15:38:15 <ShaneM_> ... the HTML working group may not be very open to diverging from the living standard.
15:39:00 <ShaneM_> janina: PF is somewhat aware of this. PF had discussed possibly preparing an extension spec.
15:40:05 <ShaneM_> paulc: doing an extension spec might not be a bad idea.  Working on this with the correct people under the correct license would help with adoption into the Living Standard.
15:40:06 <janina> q?
15:40:16 <ShaneM_> ... we would need topic experts and implementors involved too.
15:41:06 <ShaneM_> janina: what we see as the main problem is convincing the non-A11Y people that there is something worthy of developing an extension spec.  It would need to be 'well reviewed' by the experts.
15:41:44 <ShaneM_> janina: if we can get the right people at the table during TPAC that would help.
15:43:01 <ShaneM_> paulc: what edits are needed to the alt-text document?  What did liam agree to?
15:43:24 <ShaneM_> janina: the front matter / boiler plate needs to be put in.  Prepare it for a working group Note.
15:44:12 <ShaneM_> ... if longdesc becomes a rec the note will need an update.  if aria-describedat makes it into aria 1.1, the note will also need an update.
15:44:33 <ShaneM_> zakim, take up item 7
15:44:33 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Other Business" taken up [from janina]
15:45:00 <ShaneM_> No scribe volunteers.
15:45:06 <ShaneM_> rrsagent, make minutes
15:45:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/11-html-a11y-minutes.html ShaneM_
15:45:06 <Zakim> -LJWatson
15:45:09 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
15:45:11 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
15:45:12 <Zakim> -Judy
15:45:12 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
15:45:14 <Zakim> -janina
15:45:14 <Zakim> -Adrian_Roselli
15:45:19 <Zakim> -ShaneM
15:45:29 <Zakim> -Liam
15:45:33 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:45:56 <Zakim> -paulc
15:46:50 <ShaneM_> zakim, who was here?
15:46:50 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ShaneM_.
15:47:52 <Zakim> -Sam
15:47:53 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended
15:47:53 <Zakim> Attendees were janina, Judy, Sam, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, ShaneM, David_MacDonald, Adrian_Roselli, paulc, John_Foliot, Cynthia_Shelly, Liam, LJWatson
15:48:07 <ShaneM_> rrsagent, adjourn
15:48:07 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'adjourn', ShaneM_.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:48:17 <ShaneM_> rrsagent, stop logging
15:48:17 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop logging', ShaneM_.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:48:37 <ShaneM_> rrsagent, stop