IRC log of social on 2014-09-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:58:52 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #social
16:58:52 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/09-social-irc
16:58:54 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs 411
16:58:54 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #social
16:58:56 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be SOCL
16:58:56 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
16:58:57 [trackbot]: Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
16:58:57 [trackbot]: Date: 09 September 2014
16:58:57 [evanpro]: Thanks, I didn't do that yet
16:59:04 [DaveSkiba]: DaveSkiba has joined #social
16:59:09 [harry]: Zakim, what's the code?
16:59:10 [Zakim]: the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry
16:59:18 [dromasca]: dromasca has joined #social
16:59:35 [evanpro]: no, akuckartz wont be here today so we need a new scribe
16:59:55 [tiborKatelbach]: Zakim: +tiborKatelbach
17:00:05 [Loqi]: tiborKatelbach: tantek left you a message on 8/22 at 1:56pm: yes, telecon dialing in etc. information is at https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Telecons and be sure to be on IRC as well for minutes, additional converstaion, queuing.
17:00:08 [evanpro]: Arnaud: you're next alphabetically, would you mind scribing?
17:00:22 [deiu]: Regrets on my part (busy with something)
17:00:55 [sandro]: trackbot, start meeting
17:00:57 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs 411
17:00:59 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be SOCL
17:00:59 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start now
17:01:00 [trackbot]: Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
17:01:00 [trackbot]: Date: 09 September 2014
17:01:03 [evanpro]: Uh, again?
17:01:08 [sandro]: zakim, this is socl
17:01:09 [Zakim]: ok, sandro; that matches T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM
17:01:14 [evanpro]: I thought it was already started.
17:01:22 [sandro]: it was, evanpro -- my mistake
17:01:26 [evanpro]: NP
17:01:32 [evanpro]: One thing we need is a scribe
17:01:35 [sandro]: it's just it didn't identify the telecon properly
17:01:39 [evanpro]: Actually, I'll just start
17:01:43 [sandro]: zakim, who is on the call?
17:01:43 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [IPcaller], +1.503.567.aaaa, +26226234aabb, [IPcaller.a], Tsyesika, Sandro
17:01:43 [jasnell_]: joining in a second
17:01:52 [evanpro]: I'm one of those IP callers
17:02:00 [Zakim]: +jasnell
17:02:08 [aaronpk]: Zakim: aaaa is aaronpk
17:02:14 [Zakim]: +Arnaud
17:02:20 [sandro]: zakim, [IPcaller] is evanpro
17:02:20 [Zakim]: +evanpro; got it
17:02:20 [aaronpk]: zakim, aaaa is aaronpk
17:02:21 [Zakim]: +aaronpk; got it
17:02:22 [jtauber]: i may be IPcaller.a
17:02:25 [evanpro]: Tada
17:02:27 [Zakim]: +??P12
17:02:36 [Zakim]: +wilkie
17:02:50 [harry]: Zakim, this is social
17:02:50 [Zakim]: sorry, harry, I do not see a conference named 'social' in progress or scheduled at this time
17:02:54 [Zakim]: +??P15
17:02:56 [jtauber]: zakim, [IPcaller.a] is jtauber
17:02:56 [Zakim]: +jtauber; got it
17:03:10 [sandro]: zakim, who is on the call?
17:03:10 [Zakim]: On the phone I see evanpro, aaronpk, +26226234aabb, jtauber, Tsyesika, Sandro, jasnell, Arnaud, ??P12, wilkie, ??P15
17:03:27 [evanpro]: elf-pavlik: is that you?
17:03:35 [tiborKatelbach]: zakim +tiborKatelbach
17:03:57 [tiborKatelbach]: zakim aabb is me
17:04:01 [jasnell]: jasnell has joined #social
17:04:07 [tiborKatelbach]: zakim, aabb is me
17:04:07 [Zakim]: +tiborKatelbach; got it
17:04:16 [sandro]: zakim, who is on the call?
17:04:16 [Zakim]: On the phone I see evanpro, aaronpk, tiborKatelbach, jtauber, Tsyesika, Sandro, jasnell, Arnaud, ??P12, wilkie, ??P15
17:04:21 [Tsyesika]: i'm not on the call btw :s not sure why it thinks i am :P
17:04:23 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
17:04:28 [harry]: Zakim, IPcaller is hhalpin
17:04:28 [Zakim]: +hhalpin; got it
17:04:30 [wilkie]: zakim, pedantic is you!
17:04:30 [Zakim]: sorry, wilkie, I do not recognize a party named 'pedantic'
17:04:33 [dromasca]: ??P15 is me
17:04:34 [harry]: Zakim, pick a scribe
17:04:34 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose wilkie
17:04:41 [harry]: Zakim, pick a scribe
17:04:41 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose jasnell
17:04:44 [harry]: Zakim, pick a scribe
17:04:44 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose wilkie
17:04:46 [harry]: Zakim, pick a scribe
17:04:46 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose evanpro
17:04:47 [harry]: Zakim, pick a scribe
17:04:47 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Tsyesika
17:04:49 [harry]: Zakim, pick a scribe
17:04:50 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose evanpro
17:04:51 [harry]: Zakim, pick a scribe
17:04:51 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose jasnell
17:04:52 [harry]: Zakim, pick a scribe
17:04:52 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sandro
17:04:55 [harry]: Sandro :)
17:04:59 [evanpro]: Perfect
17:05:04 [Zakim]: -??P12
17:05:04 [evanpro]: sandro: can you scribe for us?
17:05:05 [harry]: Tysesika did it last time
17:05:11 [harry]: Evan is scribing
17:05:17 [harry]: jasnell has to speak a lot this meeting I imagine
17:05:18 [evanpro]: s/scribing/chairing/
17:05:18 [Tsyesika]: i did what
17:05:20 [Loqi]: evanpro meant to say: sandro: can you scribe for us?
17:05:20 [jasnell]: I will volunteer to scribe next week
17:05:29 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
17:05:33 [harry]: Zakim, pick a scribe
17:05:33 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose evanpro
17:05:34 [harry]: Zakim, pick a scribe
17:05:34 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Sandro
17:05:35 [harry]: Zakim, pick a scribe
17:05:35 [tommorris]: Zakim: IPcaller is me
17:05:36 [Zakim]: +??P19
17:05:36 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose wilkie
17:05:36 [harry]: Zakim, pick a scribe
17:05:37 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Arnaud
17:05:51 [tommorris]: Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
17:05:51 [Zakim]: +tommorris; got it
17:05:51 [evanpro]: Arnaud chaired twice in a row
17:06:27 [sandro]: scribe: sandro
17:06:38 [harry]: ACTION: harry to create a scribe list
17:06:38 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-1 - Create a scribe list [on Harry Halpin - due 2014-09-16].
17:06:43 [dromasca]: Zakim, ??P15 is me
17:06:43 [Zakim]: +dromasca; got it
17:06:56 [evanpro]: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Scribes
17:07:08 [sandro]: evanpro: working on scribes list, but it's not quite done yet
17:07:44 [evanpro]: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-02-minutes
17:07:44 [sandro]: evanpro: minutes from last week
17:08:03 [sandro]: PROPOSED: approve minutes from last week https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-02-minutes
17:08:15 [sandro]: RESOLVED: approve minutes from last week https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-02-minutes
17:08:49 [sandro]: evanpro: this is the 3rd official meeting. we're behind schedule, for various reasons
17:09:10 [sandro]: .. I've revised the schedule. It's ambitious, but I think we can meet it.
17:09:16 [sandro]: .. I'd like to run throught he schedule
17:09:20 [evanpro]: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#sched
17:09:58 [Zakim]: +Doug_Schepers
17:10:13 [sandro]: evanpro: For September, our big item is picking an initial social data syntax
17:10:28 [sandro]: .. with the goal of having a draft for TPAC
17:10:59 [sandro]: .. with the intention of by next week we'll have an agreed set of candidates and criteria
17:11:08 [sandro]: .. and two weeks from now we'll have confirmed that direction
17:11:14 [sandro]: .. and then can begin making a draft.
17:11:38 [sandro]: q+ to ask about draft publication schedule
17:11:53 [sandro]: evan: I'm an AS advocate, but I want us to consider other options
17:12:01 [evanpro]: Zakim: q?
17:12:05 [sandro]: q?
17:12:09 [evanpro]: q-
17:12:11 [sandro]: ack sandro
17:12:11 [Zakim]: sandro, you wanted to ask about draft publication schedule
17:12:33 [harry]: either publication at TPAC or before TPAC is fine with me.
17:12:58 [harry]: It does tend to help focus discussion.
17:13:04 [sandro]: sandro: goal is to have consensus to publish BEFORE of AFTER tpac?
17:13:16 [sandro]: evanpro: probably after
17:13:16 [jasnell]: My proposal is currently documented in the AS2 draft... specifically... JSON + AS2 Vocabulary + (JSON-LD alignment + recommended use of Vcard, Foaf, Org Ont, DC, and Prov ontologies). Other ontologies such as schema.org *could* be used, but would not be specifically recommended
17:13:27 [elf-pavlik]: elf-pavlik has joined #social
17:13:33 [jasnell]: AS2 working draft is located here currently: http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2.html
17:13:41 [sandro]: q?
17:13:43 [elf-pavlik]: q+
17:13:49 [sandro]: ack elf-pavlik
17:13:54 [evanpro]: Thanks
17:13:55 [jasnell]: can snapshot that at any time to product FPWD
17:14:13 [sandro]: elf-pavlik: Comparing AS and Schema.Org
17:14:29 [sandro]: evanpro: Topic at the moment is the schedule itself.
17:14:47 [Zakim]: +??P20
17:15:06 [sandro]: evanpro: AS / schema discussion is later on the agenda
17:15:26 [sandro]: evanpro: As the existing list of candidates and requirements reasonable?
17:15:38 [sandro]: s/As/Is/
17:15:41 [Loqi]: sandro meant to say: evanpro: Is the existing list of candidates and requirements reasonable?
17:16:01 [sandro]: evan: And can we make the decision within two weeks
17:16:07 [shepazu]: q+
17:16:12 [sandro]: evanpro: Hearing no comments, I'm going to take that as agreement
17:16:19 [evanpro]: ack shepazu
17:16:45 [sandro]: shepazu: As a way of getting feedback, you might ask for a specific proposal
17:17:28 [elf-pavlik]: this one https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#sched ?
17:17:32 [deiu]: deiu has joined #social
17:17:37 [wilkie]: elf-pavlik: yes
17:17:39 [evanpro]: elf-pavlik: yes
17:17:55 [sandro]: PROPOSED: The schedule for the Social Data Syntax is as just discussed, closing out candidates & requirements next week, trying to for dececision in two weeks, and draft published after F2F
17:17:58 [shepazu]: +1
17:18:00 [harry]: +1
17:18:01 [wilkie]: +1
17:18:05 [evanpro]: +1
17:18:07 [tiborKatelbach]: +1
17:18:08 [dromasca]: +1
17:18:09 [elf-pavlik]: +1
17:18:10 [jtauber]: +1
17:18:11 [oshepherd_]: +1
17:18:15 [DaveSkiba]: +1
17:18:16 [jasnell]: +1
17:18:18 [Arnaud]: +1
17:18:18 [sandro]: +1
17:18:31 [sandro]: RESOLVED: The schedule for the Social Data Syntax is as just discussed, closing out candidates & requirements next week, trying to for dececision in two weeks, and draft published after F2F
17:19:12 [sandro]: shepazu: Because this group has decided to work asynchronously, was there a call for consensus on this on the mailing list as well?
17:19:19 [sandro]: evanpro: No, so there should be
17:20:09 [elf-pavlik]: do we have this workflow documented on our wiki?
17:20:13 [sandro]: shepazu: How about: Report this proposal to the mailing list, showing consensus on mailing list, and please respond to let us know what you think (giving a deadline). This way you've checked all the boxes in terms of being async.
17:20:21 [Arnaud]: q+
17:20:24 [harry]: How about RESOLVED = what shepazu just said
17:20:27 [harry]: q+
17:20:34 [evanpro]: ack Arnaud
17:20:52 [harry]: +1
17:21:06 [sandro]: Arnaud: This sounds like a heavy process. The minutes are published -- this should stick until/unless someone raises a concern on the mailing list.
17:21:31 [elf-pavlik]: q+
17:21:35 [oshepherd_]: Perhaps a summary of resolutions in the minutes E-Mail?
17:22:01 [sandro]: shepazu: When groups I've been in have said they want to work asynchronously, they've accepted the idea that people wont be on calls. If you want to say people have to read the minutes to participate, that's fine, too.
17:22:16 [tiborKatelbach]: The group could vote for Arnaud or dougs view
17:22:32 [elf-pavlik]: +1 doug
17:22:34 [elf-pavlik]: q-
17:22:36 [sandro]: Arnaud: Since we've decided to put the minutes in the wiki, we can highlight the resolutions at the top
17:22:50 [sandro]: Arnaud: then they stick a week later, when minutes are approved
17:23:00 [tiborKatelbach]: +1 doug
17:23:13 [sandro]: shepazu: There's a perl tool that pulls out the resolutions and writes them to a wiki page for the SVG wg
17:23:18 [wilkie]: whhaaa
17:23:28 [wilkie]: darn it all! nobody told me that last week haha
17:23:46 [harry]: we have no official tools
17:23:55 [sandro]: shepazu: You can use whatever tools you want
17:24:23 [harry]: Resolutions can be objected within a week.
17:24:25 [sandro]: evanpro: Sounds like -- bring resolutions to top of minutes, but don't send special email. And people have up to the week later.
17:24:27 [harry]: That sounds rather reaosnable
17:24:39 [elf-pavlik]: 0
17:24:39 [wilkie]: +1
17:24:40 [tiborKatelbach]: +1
17:24:42 [harry]: +1
17:24:44 [evanpro]: +1
17:24:45 [Arnaud]: +1
17:24:47 [jtauber]: +1
17:24:49 [sandro]: +0 wishing for better tools, but yeah
17:24:52 [shepazu]: +1
17:24:54 [jasnell]: +1
17:25:31 [sandro]: RESOLVED: resolutions will be highlighted in minutes, and people not at meeting can bring up their concerns within the following week
17:26:29 [sandro]: evanpro: social client api -- collecting candidates and requirements
17:26:40 [sandro]: evanpro: decision by mid to late october
17:27:36 [harry]: sounds reasonable
17:27:37 [sandro]: PROPOSED: Social API schedule: gather candidates and requirements by mid October
17:27:40 [elf-pavlik]: +1
17:27:45 [oshepherd]: +1
17:27:47 [tiborKatelbach]: +1
17:27:53 [wilkie]: +1
17:27:55 [harry]: I'd like to see what other AS 2.0 work besides OpenSocial is in this space
17:27:56 [harry]: _
17:27:57 [harry]: +1
17:28:00 [jasnell]: candidates and requirement *proposals* right?
17:28:03 [harry]: yes
17:28:05 [dromasca]: +1
17:28:06 [sandro]: PROPOSED: Social API schedule: gather candidates and requirements by mid October, with confirmed direction shortly thereafter, but no draft approved at TPAC
17:28:08 [Arnaud]: +1
17:28:13 [DaveSkiba]: +1
17:28:13 [jtauber]: +1
17:28:17 [evanpro]: +1
17:28:17 [jasnell]: +1 then...
17:28:29 [sandro]: +0
17:28:35 [elf-pavlik]: +1
17:28:38 [sandro]: RESOLVED: Social API schedule: gather candidates and requirements by mid October, with confirmed direction shortly thereafter, but no draft approved at TPAC
17:29:14 [harry]: I think re federation that's pretty hard - we can modify schedule later.
17:29:18 [harry]: Focus on API and syntax first.
17:29:22 [elf-pavlik]: +1 harry
17:29:22 [harry]: q+
17:29:27 [sandro]: evanpro: Server-to-Server / Federation protocol, I'd like to put that off a bit, until we have some bandwidth to look at them, then look at schedule.
17:29:31 [sandro]: ack harry
17:29:32 [evanpro]: ack harry
17:30:08 [tiborKatelbach]: :)
17:30:12 [harry]: Anyways, just don't worry - we can modify agenda in charter
17:30:15 [harry]: no big deal
17:30:32 [harry]: We can move that back
17:30:38 [evanpro]: http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html
17:30:39 [harry]: to later in 2015
17:30:42 [oshepherd]: A point I've raised in the past: I think that any comprehensive social API and federation protocol are fundamentally intertwined concepts
17:30:42 [sandro]: evanpro: I think federation in the charter is Q1 or Q2 2015
17:31:12 [sandro]: oshepherd, do you want to voice that?
17:31:29 [oshepherd]: Sorry, my mic is still out of commission
17:31:52 [sandro]: evanpro reads oshepherd's line
17:32:05 [jasnell]: a properly designed API will also handle the federation requirement
17:32:17 [jasnell]: I don't view those as separate items
17:32:31 [sandro]: evanpro: For example ostatus and pump.io many of the rest endpoints are used for both, so it probably makes sense to consider social api
17:33:03 [sandro]: q+
17:33:10 [evanpro]: ack sandro
17:33:54 [elf-pavlik]: sandro: federation protocols first and client api just special case (elf-pavlik tries help scribing)
17:34:42 [sandro]: evanpro: There are many social APIs in use across the web, and we can provide value by standardizing that, without addressing federation. I wouldn't want to delay that in the name of thinking about federation.
17:35:02 [shepazu]: I'm curious how the different options for Social Data Syntax and Social API are going to be evaluated… are there use cases and requirements for these?
17:35:06 [sandro]: .. we do have a submission (embedded experiences), and ?? from open social, which could work very well for social API
17:35:21 [evanpro]: http://www.w3.org/Submission/2014/SUBM-osapi-20140314/
17:35:38 [elf-pavlik]: shepazu, i poposed use case https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Check-In_Use_Case
17:36:17 [evanpro]: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_syntax_requirements
17:36:26 [sandro]: evanpro: Answering shepazu -- I think we're talking about collecting them for discussion. We do have a social data syntax requirements page on the wiki, but they are very loose and informal.
17:36:47 [sandro]: .. We could get pretty far down the hole in use case analysis
17:36:52 [elf-pavlik]: q+
17:37:01 [evanpro]: ack elf-pavlik
17:37:21 [sandro]: elf-pavlik: it's hard to evaluate without use cases.
17:37:24 [harry]: I find use-cases tend to blackhole in this space, look for running code people use instead.
17:37:25 [AdamB]: AdamB has joined #social
17:37:28 [sandro]: elf-pavlik: this came up in considering Hydra
17:37:45 [harry]: For example, the Social XG made a 50 use-case document that was basically infinite and never finished.
17:37:57 [sandro]: evanpro: 95% of use case analysis is in the activity streams already
17:38:18 [Zakim]: + +1.314.777.aacc
17:38:28 [harry]: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalUseCases
17:38:36 [harry]: use-cases in this space are very large
17:38:54 [harry]: I'd recommend looking for *running code* with *real users*
17:39:17 [harry]: And see what they are *actually doing* - and include both open-source and proprietary systems in this codebase analysis.
17:39:23 [sandro]: evanpro: current wiki list is very loose; if we did use case justification, it would go on and on.
17:39:38 [tommorris]: q+
17:39:45 [harry]: For example, IBM has Connections, Evan has pump.io, SugarCRM, SAP Jam, IndieWeb sites
17:39:50 [sandro]: ack tommorris
17:40:14 [harry]: I'd like to see a list of products and software rather than use-cases, and then look maybe at the problems that real running software is trying to solve.
17:40:32 [elf-pavlik]: harry, also Crosscloud :) http://cimba.co/ | http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html
17:40:33 [harry]: Since 90% of the software in the "decentralized" social space is essentially vapourware
17:40:38 [AdamB]: zakim, this is aacc
17:40:38 [Zakim]: sorry, AdamB, I do not see a conference named 'aacc' in progress or scheduled at this time
17:40:44 [sandro]: tommorris: Looking at use cases for federation protocol, and wondering how it relates to charter requirements. Are we talking about an individual social network (eg facebook or twitter), or .... what are the servers we're federating?
17:41:27 [harry]: Federation = HTTP REST-based protocol for federating data, including obvious things like blog posts but possibly also personal data.
17:41:52 [sandro]: evanpro: I think the intention is to have multoiple servers under the control of different entities, including consumer oriented social networks and enterprises, able to share data between servers, hetergeneous, like SMTP
17:41:53 [jasnell]: Part of the challenge here is that we are not working off a common definition of what a "Social API" means... or what "Social Federation" means... we need proposed definitions
17:42:17 [dromasca]: q+
17:42:19 [harry]: I think definitions will rathole just as bad as use-cases. Instead, look at working software that claims they have federation or want it.
17:42:22 [sandro]: evanpro: It would be less interesting and not worth our energy to look at how folks should do these things internally.
17:42:23 [harry]: Ditto API.
17:42:34 [sandro]: ack dromasca
17:43:13 [elf-pavlik]: q+
17:43:24 [sandro]: dromasca: (from Avaya) This definition of federation you just described, this is much beyond social API. it brings up data ownership. not sure that's in current charter.
17:43:40 [evanpro]: ack elf-pavlik
17:43:44 [harry]: Data ownership is probably a separate topic but we should help enable that.
17:43:45 [sandro]: ack elf-pavlik
17:43:59 [oshepherd]: dromasca: Data ownership will probably be similar to SMTP
17:44:01 [sandro]: elf-pavlik: I think it would help to discuss things more on the mailing list
17:44:16 [oshepherd]: dromasca: I.E. if you send it to somebody, you probably can't get it back
17:44:36 [elf-pavlik]: discuss things *before* teleconf
17:44:46 [sandro]: evanpro: We're putting Federation until after TPAC; concentrate on client api and social data standard now.
17:45:10 [Zakim]: -oshepherd_
17:45:11 [sandro]: evanpro: can we table this Federation talk for now?
17:45:21 [evanpro]: +1
17:45:25 [elf-pavlik]: +1
17:45:25 [harry]: +1
17:45:26 [wilkie]: +1
17:45:27 [jtauber]: +1
17:45:30 [dromasca]: +1
17:45:33 [shepazu]: +1
17:45:36 [Zakim]: +??P20
17:45:37 [sandro]: evanpro: (except where it might require things of the Social API)
17:45:38 [sandro]: +1
17:45:39 [jasnell]: +1
17:45:40 [DaveSkiba]: +1
17:45:40 [tiborKatelbach]: +1
17:46:00 [sandro]: topic: Social Data Syntax
17:46:11 [sandro]: evanpro: We have some candidates on the wiki, as well as some loose requirements
17:46:39 [sandro]: evanpro: Hydra, Schema.org, AS2 are all strong candidates
17:46:43 [elf-pavlik]: q+
17:47:03 [sandro]: evanpro:We also included some not-submitted structures, like OGP and Tweets
17:47:18 [sandro]: evanpro: Facebook is not interested in submitting OGP
17:47:38 [sandro]: evanpro: or licencing it for our use
17:47:41 [harry]: Zakim, who's making noise?
17:47:54 [Zakim]: harry, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: evanpro (27%), ??P19 (4%)
17:47:55 [sandro]: evanpro: There are some others on here
17:48:04 [harry]: Twitter is discussing us with Friday
17:48:07 [harry]: will send email after that!
17:48:28 [harry]: Twitter is new to open standards space
17:48:33 [sandro]: evanpro: Unlikely they'll submit that, but it's possible
17:49:16 [jasnell]: The syntax ought to be: JSON + JSON-JD + minimal set of vocabularies including AS2 and the others documented in the AS2 draft. It should be possible to use schema.org, but it should not be a recommendation of the WG to use schema.org unless schema.org governance is opened up.
17:49:28 [sandro]: elf-pavlik: Hydra may start using the schema.org vocabulary
17:49:40 [jasnell]: it's great that schema.org updated terms of service, but governance is still a challenge
17:49:47 [tiborKatelbach]: +1
17:49:47 [Arnaud]: schema.org is not a syntax though
17:50:13 [harry]: The previous good argument was that schema.org did not conform with RFF patent policy
17:50:16 [harry]: Zakim, who's making noise?
17:50:22 [harry]: Zakim, mute ??P19
17:50:22 [Zakim]: ??P19 should now be muted
17:50:26 [Zakim]: harry, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: evanpro (25%), Sandro (4%), ??P19 (36%)
17:51:33 [sandro]: jasnell: There's the syntax and the vocabs. For the syntax, if we focus on JSON and JSON-LD, that covers that. For Schema.Org, it's fantastic they changed the terms to be compatible with W3C, but governances is still an issue.
17:52:01 [harry]: I think the main argument is how to harmonize so we can use schema.org nicely with something like AS 2.0.
17:52:03 [sandro]: jasnell: While that's still the case, I don't think W3C should be recommending people to go use it.
17:52:26 [sandro]: jasnell: It's possible for individual developers to use from multiple vocabs
17:52:34 [sandro]: q?
17:52:38 [elf-pavlik]: q-
17:52:47 [sandro]: q+
17:53:07 [oshepherd]: There should also be concern over Schema.org's quality control
17:53:13 [harry]: ack sandro
17:53:22 [sandro]: jasnell: so it's possible to use schema. org but util we work something out, we shouldnt recommend
17:53:23 [evanpro]: ack sandro
17:54:28 [evanpro]: sandro: although schema.org will not turn over the vocabulary entirely it could be dual-homed
17:54:35 [dromasca]: +q
17:54:39 [sandro]: sandro: maybe we can align terms between the two
17:55:26 [Arnaud]: +q
17:55:49 [sandro]: evanpro: if schema.org meets our basic requirements, I'd like to at least consider it on technical grounds. I'm not sure if it does. I'd like to analyse it from those grounds, before we put a lot of effort into dual-homing
17:55:53 [evanpro]: ack dromasca
17:55:57 [harry]: For schema.org we'd also need Google in WG to make any parts of it move forward on Rec track BTW
17:55:58 [Zakim]: -Doug_Schepers
17:56:25 [sandro]: dromasca: It's probably too early, since you're right about technical issue need to be addressed first.
17:56:34 [jasnell]: we need to separate the syntax and vocabulary discussions a bit. The syntax is the JSON, JSON-LD and basic encoding guidelines (much of what AS2 defines)... the vocabulary is the data model, the set of property names, the semantics, etc
17:56:41 [Zakim]: +Doug_Schepers
17:57:11 [jasnell]: we can decide on the syntax separately from ironing out all the vocab issues
17:57:18 [evanpro]: ack Arnaud
17:57:35 [sandro]: sandro: No promises on governance, but I think it's probably possible, based on talks with DanBri, etc.
17:57:51 [elf-pavlik]: q+
17:58:12 [sandro]: Arnaud: So we could copy schema.org and put it under our own control? And if everyone plays nicely, things keep working.
17:58:46 [sandro]: Arnaud: Also, it seems like this wiki page is a good start. We need to separate syntax from vocabularies.
17:59:03 [sandro]: Arnaud: Can we separate candidates, apples from oranges
17:59:26 [Zakim]: -Tsyesika
17:59:59 [oshepherd]: +1 evanpro
18:00:00 [elf-pavlik]: q-
18:00:07 [sandro]: evanpro: From my point of view -- we're not talking about all of schema.org, just the Action section. Separating syntax from vocabs could really confuse users, so I'm wary about separating them.
18:00:15 [evanpro]: ack elf-pavlik
18:00:33 [KevinMarks]: KevinMarks has joined #social
18:00:44 [sandro]: evanpro: We've hit the top of the hour. Can we continue another 15 minutes?
18:00:45 [sandro]: +1
18:00:48 [elf-pavlik]: +1
18:00:50 [wilkie]: +1
18:00:50 [tiborKatelbach]: +1
18:00:52 [harry]: +1 (but without me)
18:00:53 [evanpro]: +1
18:00:57 [jtauber]: +1
18:00:58 [AdamB]: +1
18:01:05 [oshepherd]: +1
18:01:07 [Arnaud]: +1
18:01:31 [evanpro]: q?
18:01:56 [oshepherd]: I think there is a need for a *simple*, *concise* vocabulary with a tight relation to the syntax
18:01:58 [sandro]: evanpro: any more discussion
18:02:30 [oshepherd]: Schema.org vs JSON-LD are orthogonal matters
18:03:00 [tiborKatelbach]: +1
18:03:01 [evanpro]: +1
18:03:03 [oshepherd]: +1
18:03:03 [sandro]: strawpoll: json-ld plays a part here for us
18:03:04 [wilkie]: +1
18:03:06 [elf-pavlik]: +1
18:03:11 [sandro]: +1
18:03:20 [jasnell]: +0.5 ... we need to be clear... AS2 is JSON that is compatible with JSON-LD
18:03:42 [elf-pavlik]: jasnell, can you write to mailing list about difference?
18:03:45 [sandro]: (I see that as json-ld playing a part)
18:03:47 [tommorris]: +0 - if RDFish Linked Data matches the use cases, JSON-LD seems a natural technology to use.
18:03:51 [jasnell]: elf: yes
18:03:55 [oshepherd]: (I'll note that jasnell's point is the entire purpose of JSON-LD)
18:04:04 [tiborKatelbach]: schema.org ontolgies can also be written in json-ld
18:04:32 [Zakim]: -Doug_Schepers
18:04:37 [sandro]: jasnell: JSON-LD implies both the JSON syntax and a particular processing model, and the @id kind of stuff. For backward compatibility, AS2 did not go there.
18:05:20 [evanpro]: q?
18:05:22 [sandro]: jasnell: AS2 does not say that it is JSON-LD, but here is a set of guidelines for how to process it as JSON-LD.
18:05:30 [sandro]: jasnell: Important distinction
18:05:46 [sandro]: q+
18:05:55 [elf-pavlik]: i understand backward compatibility to AS1
18:06:07 [Zakim]: -hhalpin
18:06:22 [sandro]: evanpro: My hope is that we understand that well before the F2F
18:06:34 [oshepherd]: I'd like to see the vocab and processing model properly separated from the syntax portions of the AS2 spec
18:06:36 [sandro]: evanpro: jasnell would you take an action to describe that structure?
18:07:03 [sandro]: ACTION: jasnell to describe how AS2 diverges from JSON-LD and manages the compatibility
18:07:03 [trackbot]: Error finding 'jasnell'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
18:07:05 [oshepherd]: (A lot of the issues I've raised with AS2 are because the mapping is not at all clear)
18:07:17 [jasnell]: jsnell
18:07:20 [sandro]: ACTION: jsnell to describe how AS2 diverges from JSON-LD and manages the compatibility
18:07:20 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-2 - Describe how as2 diverges from json-ld and manages the compatibility [on James Snell - due 2014-09-16].
18:07:35 [sandro]: q-
18:07:57 [sandro]: evanpro: Furthur discussion?
18:08:10 [sandro]: q+
18:08:34 [elf-pavlik]: q+
18:08:36 [sandro]: evanpro: continue this on the mailing list, please
18:09:06 [evanpro]: ack sandro
18:09:39 [elf-pavlik]: i can take action with help of others: pelf
18:09:42 [sandro]: sandro: Anyone willing to compare AS2 and schema.org, so we don't have to all do it for ourselves??
18:09:57 [tommorris]: Wiki-page?
18:10:16 [jasnell]: I've documented a few comparisons on my personal blog in the past, will provide links in the wiki
18:10:17 [sandro]: action: elf to work on comparison of AS2 vocab and schema.org actions vocab
18:10:17 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-3 - Work on comparison of as2 vocab and schema.org actions vocab [on Pavlik elf - due 2014-09-16].
18:10:25 [sandro]: tiborKatelbach, I'll help, too!
18:10:29 [jasnell]: and will post a few of my own comments to the mailing list as time allows
18:10:37 [sandro]: s/,/:/
18:10:38 [Loqi]: sandro meant to say: tiborKatelbach: I'll help: too!
18:10:45 [elf-pavlik]: q?
18:10:55 [evanpro]: ack elf-pavlik
18:11:25 [sandro]: elf-pavlik: On social syntax vs vocab, the way collections work, Hydra and LDP do that differently. Itemlist on schema.
18:11:30 [sandro]: +1 collections in LDP are interesting
18:11:53 [elf-pavlik]: https://www.w3.org/community/hydra/wiki/Collection_Design
18:12:37 [sandro]: sandro: LDP containers *can* impact your vocabulary desing
18:13:00 [oshepherd]: sandro: I'm not quite sure how collections in Hydra are any different from OWL
18:13:02 [elf-pavlik]: +1 mailing list
18:13:06 [jasnell]: +1 to documented proposals on the mailing list
18:13:08 [sandro]: sandro: Let's take that to the mailin glist.
18:13:12 [jasnell]: who is beeping...?
18:13:24 [sandro]: topic: Organizational Topics
18:13:41 [sandro]: evanpro: trying to get agenda out before the weekend --- I'll try
18:13:52 [sandro]: Arnaud: Yeah, I think I can do that, too.
18:13:53 [elf-pavlik]: thanks :)
18:14:09 [evanpro]: +1
18:14:15 [elf-pavlik]: +1
18:14:16 [sandro]: evanpro: folks like this?
18:14:27 [wilkie]: +1
18:14:41 [sandro]: evanpro: might miss current conversation
18:14:52 [sandro]: Arnaud: Friday before should be fine.
18:15:05 [sandro]: evanpro: Presenting social efforts during other events
18:15:25 [sandro]: elf-pavlik: I'm going to some events; I'll work on a slide deck. Anyone have slides, or want to help?
18:15:59 [elf-pavlik]: yes
18:16:01 [sandro]: elf-pavlik: I'll send email
18:16:01 [Zakim]: -oshepherd
18:16:09 [evanpro]: q?
18:16:19 [sandro]: evanpro: We're out of time. Any other business?
18:16:29 [sandro]: ADJOURN
18:16:39 [sandro]: thanks Evan!
18:16:42 [Zakim]: -AdamB
18:16:44 [Zakim]: -jtauber
18:16:44 [Zakim]: -jasnell
18:16:45 [Zakim]: -Arnaud
18:16:45 [oshepherd]: :-)
18:16:46 [elf-pavlik]: thanks Evan & sandro!
18:16:46 [Zakim]: -dromasca
18:16:47 [Zakim]: -tiborKatelbach
18:16:49 [Zakim]: -tommorris
18:16:50 [Zakim]: -wilkie
18:16:52 [Zakim]: -Sandro
18:16:52 [Zakim]: -evanpro
18:16:59 [Zakim]: -??P19
18:17:17 [evanpro]: trackbot, end meeting
18:17:17 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
18:17:17 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been +1.503.567.aaaa, +26226234aabb, Tsyesika, Sandro, jasnell, Arnaud, evanpro, aaronpk, wilkie, jtauber, tiborKatelbach, hhalpin, tommorris,
18:17:18 [elf-pavlik]: i think P19 was me
18:17:20 [Zakim]: ... dromasca, Doug_Schepers, oshepherd_, +1.314.777.aacc, AdamB, oshepherd
18:17:20 [Zakim]: -aaronpk
18:17:20 [Zakim]: T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has ended
18:17:20 [Zakim]: Attendees were +1.503.567.aaaa, +26226234aabb, Tsyesika, Sandro, jasnell, Arnaud, evanpro, aaronpk, wilkie, jtauber, tiborKatelbach, hhalpin, tommorris, dromasca, Doug_Schepers,
18:17:21 [Zakim]: ... oshepherd_, +1.314.777.aacc, AdamB, oshepherd
18:17:25 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:17:25 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/09-social-minutes.html trackbot
18:17:25 [sandro]: trackbot, end meeting
18:17:26 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
18:17:26 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
18:17:26 [Zakim]: sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
18:17:34 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:17:34 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/09-social-minutes.html trackbot
18:17:35 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
18:17:43 [tiborKatelbach]: elf do you want to have a call to get organised ?
18:17:53 [wilkie]: thanks all
18:18:07 [elf-pavlik]: tiborKatelbach, sure but now need to run to http://lanyrd.com/2014/decentralizejs/
18:18:08 [Arnaud]: trackbot, make logs public
18:18:08 [trackbot]: Sorry, Arnaud, I don't understand 'trackbot, make logs public'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
18:18:12 [evanpro]: Whew! That was a lot
18:18:26 [tiborKatelbach]: ok give me a buzz when your available
18:18:46 [Loqi]: elf-pavlik meant to say: thanks to everyone wrestling with those bots ;)
18:19:38 [tiborKatelbach]: evan would be open for a chat about pump.io ?
18:20:41 [Arnaud]: trackbot, make log public
18:20:41 [trackbot]: Sorry, Arnaud, I don't understand 'trackbot, make log public'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
18:21:26 [Arnaud]: rrsagent, make logs public
18:21:33 [Arnaud]: ah!
18:21:35 [evanpro]: tiborKatelbach: give me about 10
18:21:42 [Arnaud]: just wasn't talking to the right bot
18:21:43 [tiborKatelbach]: cool
18:25:30 [Arnaud]: rrsagent, help
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