IRC log of ua on 2014-09-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:19:56 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:19:56 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/04-ua-irc
16:19:58 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:19:58 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:20:00 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:20:00 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 40 minutes
16:20:01 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:20:01 [trackbot]
Date: 04 September 2014
16:20:17 [allanj]
chair: JimAllan, KellyFord
16:20:30 [allanj]
rrsagent, set logs public
16:20:41 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:20:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/04-ua-minutes.html allanj
16:27:22 [allanj]
agenda+ Action 1029 Fleshout note for conformance of nested ua user interfaces
16:27:24 [allanj]
agenda+ Publishing doc.
16:27:25 [allanj]
agenda+ Final pass on document.
16:27:46 [allanj]
agenda+ MS04 Note
16:57:58 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:58:05 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:00:47 [allanj]
allanj has joined #ua
17:01:15 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
17:01:57 [allanj]
zakim, agenda?
17:01:57 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:01:58 [Zakim]
1. Action 1029 Fleshout note for conformance of nested ua user interfaces [from allanj]
17:01:58 [Zakim]
2. Publishing doc. [from allanj]
17:01:58 [Zakim]
3. Final pass on document. [from allanj]
17:01:58 [Zakim]
4. MS04 Note [from allanj]
17:02:40 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:02:48 [Zakim]
+Greg_Lowney
17:02:48 [Jan]
zakim, code?
17:02:49 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
17:02:58 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:03:22 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:03:45 [Jan]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
17:03:45 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:06:11 [jeanne2]
agenda+ TPAC meetings with other groups?
17:08:25 [allanj]
scribe: allanj
17:08:44 [allanj]
agenda ?
17:09:09 [allanj]
zakim, open item 5
17:09:09 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "TPAC meetings with other groups?" taken up [from jeanne2]
17:09:17 [jeanne2]
https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2014/ad-hoc-meetings
17:10:18 [allanj]
js: optional meeting 11-3 meeting time for adhoc meetings both days
17:10:51 [allanj]
... schedule between groups
17:13:49 [allanj]
zakim, close item 5
17:13:49 [Zakim]
agendum 5, TPAC meetings with other groups?, closed
17:13:50 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:13:50 [Zakim]
1. Action 1029 Fleshout note for conformance of nested ua user interfaces [from allanj]
17:14:05 [allanj]
zakim, open item 2
17:14:05 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Publishing doc." taken up [from allanj]
17:17:09 [allanj]
perhaps next week, with 3 week turn around, handle comments. then publish again right before TPAC
17:18:56 [allanj]
discussion on clean up particulars
17:19:37 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:19:38 [allanj]
zakim, close item 2
17:19:39 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Publishing doc., closed
17:19:39 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:19:39 [Zakim]
1. Action 1029 Fleshout note for conformance of nested ua user interfaces [from allanj]
17:19:55 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:20:10 [allanj]
zakim, open item 1
17:20:10 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Action 1029 Fleshout note for conformance of nested ua user interfaces" taken up [from allanj]
17:21:15 [Zakim]
+Kim_Patch
17:22:03 [allanj]
zakim, [Microsoft] is really Kelly
17:22:03 [Zakim]
+Kelly; got it
17:22:23 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:22:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/04-ua-minutes.html allanj
17:23:11 [allanj]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JulSep/0080.html
17:24:08 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
17:29:42 [allanj]
Proposed: insert into UAAG 2.0 Conformance Applicability Notes
17:30:11 [Jan]
Note: In this document the term user interface is reserved only for controls and mechanisms of the user agent that is being considered for conformance. It does not include controls and mechanisms created by content or other user agents. For example a desktop user agent displays a page containing a media player. The media player is a user agent with its own unique user interface. The media...
17:30:13 [Jan]
...player would have its own unique conformance claim, just as the parent user agent has its own conformance claim.
17:31:52 [Jan]
Note: In this document the term UA user interface is reserved only for controls and mechanisms of the user agent that is being considered for conformance. It does not include controls and mechanisms created by content or other user agents. For example a desktop user agent displays a page containing a media player. The media player is a user agent with its own unique user interface. The media...
17:31:54 [Jan]
...player would have its own unique conformance claim, just as the parent user agent has its own conformance claim.
17:32:14 [jeanne2]
Embedded user agents: The term user agent (UA) user interface is reserved only for controls and mechanisms of the user agent that is being considered for conformance. It does not include controls and mechanisms created by content or other user agents. For example a desktop user agent displays a page containing a media player. The media player is a user agent with its own unique user interface. The
17:32:15 [jeanne2]
media player would have its own unique conformance claim, just as the parent user agent has its own conformance claim.
17:35:41 [allanj]
discussion of UA user interface and the conformance
17:37:18 [allanj]
gl: this note is about the scope of the term UA user interface
17:37:35 [jeanne2]
Scope of User Agent User Interface: Embedded user agents: The term user agent (UA) user interface is reserved only for controls and mechanisms of the user agent that is being considered for conformance. It does not include controls and mechanisms created by content or other user agents. For example a desktop user agent displays a page containing a media player. The media player is a user agent with
17:37:35 [jeanne2]
its own unique user interface. The media player would have its own unique conformance claim, just as the parent user agent has its own conformance claim.
17:37:59 [jeanne2]
Scope of User Agent User Interface: The term user agent (UA) user interface is reserved only for controls and mechanisms of the user agent that is being considered for conformance. It does not include controls and mechanisms created by content or other user agents. For example a desktop user agent displays a page containing a media player. The media player is a user agent with its own unique user
17:37:59 [jeanne2]
interface. The media player would have its own unique conformance claim, just as the parent user agent has its own conformance claim.
17:38:39 [jeanne2]
Scope of User Interface: The term user agent (UA) user interface is reserved only for controls and mechanisms of the user agent that is being considered for conformance. It does not include controls and mechanisms created by content or other user agents. For example a desktop user agent displays a page containing a media player. The media player is a user agent with its own unique user interface.
17:38:39 [jeanne2]
The media player would have its own unique conformance claim, just as the parent user agent has its own conformance claim.
17:40:54 [allanj]
Scope of User Interface: The term user interface is reserved only for controls and mechanisms of the user agent that is being considered for conformance. It does not include controls and mechanisms created by content or other user agents. For example a desktop user agent displays a page containing a media player. The media player is a user agent with its own unique user interface.
17:40:55 [allanj]
The media player would have its own unique conformance claim, just as the parent user agent has its own conformance claim.
17:41:00 [jeanne2]
Scope of User Interface: The term "user interface" is reserved only for controls and mechanisms of the user agent that is being considered for conformance. It does not include controls and mechanisms created by content or other user agents. For example a desktop user agent displays a page containing a media player. The media player is a user agent with its own unique user interface. The media player
17:41:00 [jeanne2]
would have its own unique conformance claim, just as the parent user agent has its own conformance claim.
17:43:09 [jeanne2]
action: jeanne to update document to add Conformance Applicability Note above and link to the conformance note from the definition of user interface. Standardize all SCs to use term "user interface" linked to the definition.
17:43:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1032 - Update document to add conformance applicability note above and link to the conformance note from the definition of user interface. standardize all scs to use term "user interface" linked to the definition. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-09-11].
17:44:48 [Greg]
I'd lean towards relegating the examples to the glossary entry for embedded user agents, but I'll defer to the group.
17:47:04 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
17:47:26 [allanj]
zakim: close item 1
17:47:34 [allanj]
zakim, close item 1
17:47:34 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Action 1029 Fleshout note for conformance of nested ua user interfaces, closed
17:47:36 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:47:36 [Zakim]
3. Final pass on document. [from allanj]
17:47:36 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:47:38 [Zakim]
-Kelly
17:48:06 [allanj]
zakim, [Microsoft] is really Kelly
17:48:06 [Zakim]
+Kelly; got it
17:48:16 [allanj]
agenda ?
17:48:32 [allanj]
zakim, open item 4
17:48:32 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "MS04 Note" taken up [from allanj]
17:49:02 [allanj]
MS04 (be clear what is user interface and what is rendered content)
17:49:04 [allanj]
We fixed our definitions, but MS04 also pointed out SC where we were not
17:49:05 [allanj]
specific which applied. I propose the following:
17:50:14 [allanj]
3.2.2 Back button. Added sentence to Intent "The Back feature is a part of the user agent user interface instead of the rendered content, however, authors should not "break" the Back button by disabling it, or creating sequences of web pages that would cause an error if the Back button were used. "
17:50:18 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
17:52:40 [Jan]
Greg's http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JulSep/0087.html
17:53:33 [Jan]
http://jspellman.github.io/UAAG-LC-Comment/
17:56:16 [allanj]
gl: need to smith the intent of 3.2.2 back, forward, navigate within history
17:56:32 [allanj]
... ideally change the SC but willing to defer
17:57:19 [Greg]
I don't feel the SC needs any change to clarify whether it's related to UA UI or to content, but I would like to (ideally) see the SC reworded slightly to avoid focusing entirely on the terms "reverse" and "back". Per the second paragraph of my email, it should be about more than that. However, if people want to postpone this until UAAG3, I'll understand.
17:58:09 [Jan]
Original numbering: 3.2.2 Back Button
17:58:27 [Jan]
2.3.4 Present Direct Commands in User Interface
17:58:40 [allanj]
discussion of meaning of the comment
17:59:03 [Jan]
2.2.1 Sequential Navigation Between Elements: The user can move the keyboard focus backwards and forwards through all recognized enabled elements in the current viewport.
17:59:21 [Zakim]
-Kelly
17:59:32 [Jan]
3.2.3 Spell Check: User agents provide spell checking functionality for text created inside the user agent.
17:59:45 [kford]
I was just asking what 3.2.2.said exactly.
18:00:22 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
18:01:21 [kford]
I know that the ask on this item was to be very explicit about this discinction.
18:01:25 [allanj]
zakim, [Microsoft] is Kelly
18:01:25 [Zakim]
+Kelly; got it
18:01:48 [kford]
I know the ask was to be very expliciti on this point.
18:03:22 [allanj]
jr: need to be more explicit about rendered content.
18:03:31 [kford]
We can for example address it by adding this explicitedly or say that context should in general make this obvious.
18:04:33 [Jan]
UAAG 1.0 used to call this out explicitly ("Conformance detail") http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-USERAGENT/guidelines.html#Guidelines
18:04:42 [kford]
I am also saying that we can say that we don't agree with the comment and such.
18:05:06 [kford]
I am saying we could respond that way.
18:05:46 [allanj]
ja: should we take a pass at finding any SC that need explicit rendered content?
18:06:33 [allanj]
jr: perhaps add an applicability note about rendered content. or if some one wants to know they can dril down and follow definitions, or read the reference document
18:08:23 [allanj]
s/dril/drill
18:09:16 [allanj]
jr: add "applies to: rendered content, or uaui, or both" for each SC in the reference document
18:10:07 [allanj]
js: then this must be done by next thurs.
18:11:12 [allanj]
jr: this seems easier than rewording SCs
18:11:39 [allanj]
js: the work is easy, making the decision is difficult
18:12:01 [allanj]
jr: should not be hard, if it is hard then the comment is really valid
18:15:05 [allanj]
jr: will take a pass at the reference document.
18:15:31 [allanj]
Topic: 3.2.3 spell check
18:15:52 [allanj]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JulSep/0088.html
18:16:23 [allanj]
gl: editorial 'user agents provide' vs 'the user can'
18:16:41 [allanj]
gl: I’m leery of the phrase "text created inside the user agent"
18:16:56 [allanj]
... only refer to editable stuff in content
18:17:16 [allanj]
... regardless of where content is created
18:19:49 [allanj]
gl: don't want to require spell check in the UAUI
18:20:52 [Greg]
My comment comes down to the fact that the current SC wording risks accidentally (a) applying to text entered into the UA UI, such as a Find field or File Open dialog, and (b) NOT applying to text that's pasted into a form field, since that's not technically "created inside the user agent".
18:22:40 [allanj]
ja: text inside viewport
18:22:59 [allanj]
js: no, not all words in <p> and <h> etc.
18:23:08 [Greg]
I'd like to see something like "The user can have spelling and grammar assistance for any text in a text input field [or control] in content."
18:24:14 [Greg]
Or "The user can have spelling and grammar assistance for text in text input fields [or controls] in content."
18:24:44 [allanj]
ja: no UA has grammar checking
18:24:56 [allanj]
gl: MS Word does
18:25:19 [allanj]
gl: extension - grammarly lite, grammar base
18:25:22 [Greg]
Lots of extensions for various browsers add grammar checking.
18:25:51 [Greg]
But as I said in my email I'm okay with relegating grammar assistance to a recommendation in the Reference document.
18:26:06 [allanj]
3.2.3 The user can have spelling for text in text input fields [or controls] in content.
18:26:31 [Greg]
Or "The user can have spelling and grammar assistance for editable text in in content."
18:26:40 [Greg]
s/in in/in/
18:27:12 [Greg]
"The user can have spelling assistance for editable text in content."
18:28:28 [allanj]
"The user can have spelling assistance for editable text in rendered content."
18:28:56 [allanj]
action: jeanne to update 3.2.3 to be "The user can have spelling assistance for editable text in rendered content."
18:28:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1033 - Update 3.2.3 to be "the user can have spelling assistance for editable text in rendered content." [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-09-11].
18:30:09 [Greg]
I can work on adapting my 1st and 3rd paragraphs for inclusion into the Intent.
18:30:48 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:30:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/04-ua-minutes.html allanj
18:32:11 [allanj]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JulSep/0089.html
18:33:52 [allanj]
gl: need a better definition of element and element type
18:33:58 [allanj]
current def
18:34:02 [allanj]
element, element type
18:34:04 [allanj]
Primarily, a syntactic construct of a document type definition (DTD) for its application. This is the sense employed by the XML 1.0 specification ([XML], section 3). This sense is also relevant to structures defined by XML schemas. UAAG 2.0 also uses the term "element" more generally to mean a type of content (such as video or sound) or a logical construct (such as a header or list).
18:34:05 [allanj]
enabled element: An element with associated behaviors that can be activated through the user interface or through an API. The set of elements that a user agent enables is generally derived from, but is not limited to, the set of elements defined by implemented markup languages.
18:34:07 [allanj]
disabled element: A potentially enabled element that is not currently available for activation (e.g. a "grayed out" menu item).
18:34:56 [allanj]
element type is used in 1.4.2
18:35:58 [Zakim]
-Jan
18:36:00 [Zakim]
-Kelly
18:36:08 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:36:10 [allanj]
action: greg to send to jeanne new definition for 'element' and 'element type'
18:36:10 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1034 - Send to jeanne new definition for 'element' and 'element type' [on Greg Lowney - due 2014-09-11].
18:36:50 [Zakim]
-Greg_Lowney
18:36:51 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:36:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/04-ua-minutes.html allanj
18:37:02 [allanj]
zakim, please part
18:37:02 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jeanne, Jim_Allan, Greg_Lowney, Jan, Kim_Patch, Kelly
18:37:02 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:37:09 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:37:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/04-ua-minutes.html allanj
18:37:25 [allanj]
rrsagent, please part
18:37:25 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/04-ua-actions.rdf :
18:37:25 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update document to add Conformance Applicability Note above and link to the conformance note from the definition of user interface. Standardize all SCs to use term "user interface" linked to the definition. [1]
18:37:25 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/04-ua-irc#T17-43-09
18:37:25 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update 3.2.3 to be "The user can have spelling assistance for editable text in rendered content." [2]
18:37:25 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/04-ua-irc#T18-28-56
18:37:25 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: greg to send to jeanne new definition for 'element' and 'element type' [3]
18:37:25 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/04-ua-irc#T18-36-10
18:37:31 [allanj]
exit
18:37:35 [allanj]
bye