13:29:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rd
13:29:24 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/09/03-rd-irc
13:29:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:29:28 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7394
13:29:28 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_RDWG()9:30AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
13:29:29 <trackbot> Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference
13:29:29 <trackbot> Date: 03 September 2014
13:29:38 <christos> christos has joined #rd
13:30:02 <Zakim> WAI_RDWG()9:30AM has now started
13:30:08 <Zakim> +??P11
13:30:20 <christos> zakim, ??P11 is me
13:30:20 <Zakim> +christos; got it
13:31:13 <Zakim> +??P15
13:31:28 <Zakim> +Yehya
13:31:31 <peter_thiessen> zakim, ??P15 is me
13:31:31 <Zakim> +peter_thiessen; got it
13:31:36 <peter_thiessen> zakim, mute me
13:31:36 <Zakim> peter_thiessen should now be muted
13:31:42 <Yehya> Yehya has joined #rd
13:32:04 <Yehya> zakim, who
13:32:04 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who', Yehya
13:32:18 <shadi> zakim, call shadi-617
13:32:18 <Zakim> ok, shadi; the call is being made
13:32:20 <Zakim> +Shadi
13:32:51 <peter_thiessen> zakim, unmute me
13:32:51 <Zakim> peter_thiessen should no longer be muted
13:33:00 <peter_thiessen> zakim, mute me
13:33:00 <Zakim> peter_thiessen should now be muted
13:33:40 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:33:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see christos, peter_thiessen (muted), Yehya, Shadi
13:34:57 <shadi> regrets: Simon, Silvia, Vivienne
13:35:34 <peter_thiessen> zakim, unmute me
13:35:34 <Zakim> peter_thiessen should no longer be muted
13:35:41 <peter_thiessen> zakim, scribe is me
13:35:41 <Zakim> sorry, peter_thiessen, I do not recognize a party named 'scribe'
13:35:48 <peter_thiessen> zakim, mute me
13:35:48 <Zakim> peter_thiessen should now be muted
13:36:01 <peter_thiessen> scribe: peter_thiessen
13:36:13 <shadi> Agenda+ Spin Through Note Edit Status: Metrics, Mobile, Text-C, E2R, UM, eLearning [sharper]
13:36:13 <shadi> Agenda+ Symposium Status: Way-Finding (CfP due 7th Sept 2014 - http://goo.gl/QdSZRI) [christos, vivienne, annika]
13:36:19 <shadi> agenda?
13:36:25 <shadi> zakim, clear agenda
13:36:25 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:36:28 <shadi> Agenda+ Spin Through Note Edit Status: Metrics, Mobile, Text-C, E2R, UM, eLearning [sharper]
13:36:28 <shadi> Agenda+ Symposium Status: Way-Finding (CfP due 7th Sept 2014 - http://goo.gl/QdSZRI) [christos, vivienne, annika]
13:36:52 <peter_thiessen> zakim, take up next
13:36:52 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Symposium Status: Way-Finding (CfP due 7th Sept 2014 - http://goo.gl/QdSZRI)" taken up [from christos, vivienne, annika]
13:37:11 <peter_thiessen> shadi: metrics note is still in discussion with the editors
13:37:23 <peter_thiessen> .. getting some comments from Judy so no progress this week
13:37:52 <peter_thiessen> .. mobile note, we received an update
13:38:07 <peter_thiessen> .. I'll look at next steps and for me to get an editorial process in place
13:38:27 <peter_thiessen> .. same with user modeling for a11y - congrats to the editors
13:38:40 <peter_thiessen> .. I received a version last week and will be going through it editorially
13:38:57 <peter_thiessen> .. will send a version back to the editors for review and then to the group
13:39:23 <peter_thiessen> .. text customization not received
13:40:05 <peter_thiessen> .. things look good overall though alignment may need some work, like how citations are done etc.
13:40:11 <peter_thiessen> .. sound ok?
13:40:29 <peter_thiessen> yehya: yes, comment on response document - will clean it up and send back
13:40:46 <peter_thiessen> shadi: that was really good, so commentors will see how comments addressed
13:40:59 <peter_thiessen> .. user modeling for a11y is online
13:41:06 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/2013/user-modeling/note/ED-UM4A
13:41:20 <peter_thiessen> .. my suggestion yehya and chrisots is to go through it editorial first
13:41:28 <peter_thiessen> yehya: I think we agree to that
13:41:37 <peter_thiessen> shadi: same peter for the mobile side
13:41:44 <peter_thiessen> peter: ok
13:41:54 <peter_thiessen> zakim, take up next
13:41:54 <Zakim> I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, peter_thiessen
13:42:04 <christos> https://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Accessibility_and_way-finding,_navigation_and_exploration_systems#Accessible_Way-Finding_using_Web_Technologies_Online_Symposium_3_December_2014
13:42:19 <peter_thiessen> zakim, take up 5
13:42:19 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up 5', peter_thiessen
13:43:20 <peter_thiessen> (looks like zakim lost our items? :(
13:43:36 <peter_thiessen> shadi: let me have a look at that
13:43:44 <peter_thiessen> .. we need to do the cross referencing and cleaning
13:43:54 <peter_thiessen> .. let's look at the page christos put in (see link)
13:44:24 <peter_thiessen> .. what are people's reactions to this - mainly scope and objectives section
13:45:02 <peter_thiessen> .. have a look at background first
13:45:08 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Accessibility_and_way-finding,_navigation_and_exploration_systems#Background
13:47:36 <peter_thiessen> yehya: I miss section references in the background
13:47:53 <peter_thiessen> shadi: do we want references directly in the text?
13:48:05 <peter_thiessen> yehya: some numbers in the text
13:48:15 <peter_thiessen> .. if I recall from other symposia the background always has references
13:48:41 <peter_thiessen> christos: I think there is a difference between backgrounds in the call and main page of the symposium or final link
13:48:56 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/2013/user-modeling/Overview.html#background
13:49:14 <peter_thiessen> .. I believe the references are mainly used int he background instead of the call for paper
13:49:23 <peter_thiessen> shadi: for example (see link)
13:49:45 <peter_thiessen> .. the issue is it is sometimes more difficult to read
13:50:05 <peter_thiessen> christos: I think we could put some links to places
13:50:15 <peter_thiessen> yehya: I think it is ok
13:50:26 <peter_thiessen> .. I thought we had previously added links
13:50:42 <peter_thiessen> .. we can can stick to it as is without direct references in the call
13:50:54 <peter_thiessen> shadi: one thing christos is to add a link to the wiki page
13:51:02 <peter_thiessen> christos: there is a link at the end of the background
13:51:11 <peter_thiessen> .. the main page needs to be cleaned up
13:51:26 <peter_thiessen> yehya: I was looking for indoor-navigation and I found it
13:51:40 <peter_thiessen> +q
13:51:49 <peter_thiessen> shadi: quite a long sentence
13:52:02 <peter_thiessen> .. fact that you missed it is an indication that that sentence was too long
13:52:22 <peter_thiessen> chistos: I could change this into a list
13:52:31 <peter_thiessen> .. but I don't like the way that it would look
13:52:46 <peter_thiessen> shadi: I'm just wondering if the second sentence is talking about the same thing
13:53:02 <peter_thiessen> .. you start talking about different types of applications
13:53:20 <peter_thiessen> .. I'm not sure if everybody understand what turn by turn navigation means
13:53:30 <peter_thiessen> .. lots of terms in there
13:53:42 <peter_thiessen> .. I'm wondering if the third part could be a separate sentence
13:53:50 <peter_thiessen> christos: yes, I could break that out
13:54:31 <peter_thiessen> shadi: at least 3-4 points in there
13:54:45 <peter_thiessen> christos: ok
13:55:20 <peter_thiessen> shadi: why are they showing problems? "Emerging applications.."
13:55:33 <peter_thiessen> christos: the wording of problems is maybe not the correct one
13:55:53 <peter_thiessen> shadi: I think you're trying to do 2 things in this sentence
13:56:08 <peter_thiessen> .. enumerate more domains and the statement that a lot of work needs to be done
13:56:12 <peter_thiessen> .. probably best to separate them
13:56:42 <peter_thiessen> .. I think that latter point - perhaps do it later on in the paragraph
13:56:53 <klaus> klaus has joined #rd
13:57:02 <peter_thiessen> .. first bit to highlight the scope, different areas where way finding takes place
13:57:34 <peter_thiessen> .. and I'm thinking about, the way finding is the main term we plan to use - way finding includes..
13:57:57 <peter_thiessen> .. so what you'd do in the first paragraph is define/outline way finding and from there on just use the work way finding
13:58:23 <peter_thiessen> christos: that's good, ok
13:58:26 <Zakim> +??P14
13:58:53 <peter_thiessen> Minor Typo wiki: /Although there are an incresing number/Although there are an increasing number/
13:59:06 <shadi> zakim, ??p14 is klaus
13:59:06 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Accessibility_and_way-finding,_navigation_and_exploration_systems#Background
13:59:06 <Zakim> +klaus; got it
13:59:38 <peter_thiessen> zakim, unmute me
13:59:38 <Zakim> peter_thiessen should no longer be muted
13:59:52 <peter_thiessen> zakim, mute me
13:59:52 <Zakim> peter_thiessen should now be muted
14:00:33 <peter_thiessen> shadi: I think info in there is great.. and I can help you with the editing as well
14:00:47 <peter_thiessen> .. let's look back at the intro section
14:00:55 <shadi> https://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Accessibility_and_way-finding,_navigation_and_exploration_systems#Introduction
14:01:25 <peter_thiessen> .. intro is like a mini abstract and make sure the background and scope is all here, inviting..
14:01:32 <Zakim> -peter_thiessen
14:01:47 <peter_thiessen> test test
14:01:53 <peter_thiessen> (oh ok sorry about)
14:03:15 <Zakim> +??P35
14:03:23 <peter_thiessen> zakim, ?P35 is me
14:03:23 <Zakim> sorry, peter_thiessen, I do not recognize a party named '?P35'
14:03:31 <peter_thiessen> zakim, ??P35 is me
14:03:31 <Zakim> +peter_thiessen; got it
14:03:35 <peter_thiessen> zakim, mute me
14:03:35 <Zakim> peter_thiessen should now be muted
14:03:49 <peter_thiessen> shadi: question is what is an exploration system
14:04:13 <peter_thiessen> christos: systems that allow you to see the surrounding area - I'm a tourist and I want to go to a restaurant that fits my preferences and I explore the area
14:04:20 <peter_thiessen> .. not a term that I see used to often
14:04:35 <peter_thiessen> shadi: like location based services
14:05:00 <peter_thiessen> christos: as you suggested we can use way-finding as the main term and describe it in more detail..
14:05:33 <peter_thiessen> .. I think we can keep way-finding as the main term..
14:06:05 <peter_thiessen> shadi: ok, any other comments klaus
14:06:12 <peter_thiessen> klaus: more related to background
14:06:31 <peter_thiessen> .. several researches and research and people working on annotations and points of interests related to this exploration
14:06:47 <peter_thiessen> .. a term that could raise the interest to researches working on that domain
14:07:07 <peter_thiessen> christos: .. annotations for places is also included as a term there
14:07:24 <peter_thiessen> shadi: you could think about christos, so the second sentence you start describing navigation systems
14:07:37 <peter_thiessen> .. you could have one sentence that talks about navigations sytems
14:07:46 <peter_thiessen> .. then have a sub type about indoor explorations
14:07:56 <peter_thiessen> .. then have travel types and so on..
14:08:11 <peter_thiessen> .. by breaking up that second sentence and explaining each term, could actually work
14:08:24 <peter_thiessen> christos: I can do that
14:09:13 <peter_thiessen> yehya: last sentence - when you read the background it's stating many problems with such systems - perhaps put in the gaols to talk about the problems that exist
14:10:18 <peter_thiessen> christos: yes, I think the sentence tries to introduce the two main challenges..
14:10:38 <peter_thiessen> .. I don't know if I understand yehya's comment
14:10:57 <peter_thiessen> yehya: I meant in the background you are telling that disabled persons are having a lot of problems with way-finding systems
14:11:12 <peter_thiessen> .. it may be good to have in the goals to include not on the needs but also the problems
14:11:18 <peter_thiessen> christos: ok I can change the wording
14:11:30 <peter_thiessen> shadi: again, I think you could split the last sentence in two
14:11:36 <peter_thiessen> .. first sentence is the gaol
14:11:42 <peter_thiessen> .. the second is the scope
14:12:49 <peter_thiessen> christos: ok
14:13:40 <peter_thiessen> shadi: confirms goal
14:14:05 <peter_thiessen> .. explore what are the needs of needs and challenges of existing..
14:14:19 <peter_thiessen> .. does scope reflect goal - 2min reading break
14:15:39 <peter_thiessen> shadi: ok reactions
14:16:17 <peter_thiessen> yehya: it covers what has been said in the intro and background - nice worded
14:16:27 <peter_thiessen> peter: agree with yehya
14:16:43 <peter_thiessen> klaus: +1
14:16:59 <peter_thiessen> shadi: I think this spans the scope nicely.
14:17:24 <peter_thiessen> .. if you look at data centre and technologies and describes them - so it gives me a bit of a taste
14:17:38 <peter_thiessen> .. with the UI I'm missing that - I think this is just tweaking
14:18:12 <peter_thiessen> .. maybe - haptic feedback.. audio .. and all the different kinds of UIs and information highly mapping visiual..
14:18:28 <peter_thiessen> christos: I can include more info about haptic feedback, notifcations,..
14:18:43 <peter_thiessen> shadi: just a little, not too much - in the other's you do it nicely
14:19:26 <peter_thiessen> klaus: to the scope, going back to the intro - it highlights the user needs and missing understading
14:19:37 <peter_thiessen> .. this might also be reflected in the scope
14:20:01 <peter_thiessen> shadi: right, and maybe as part of the UI - this where the user needs to come in
14:20:06 <peter_thiessen> klaus: and also the data
14:20:18 <peter_thiessen> shadi: right, you need the entire stack
14:20:33 <peter_thiessen> .. you could let the word user needs float in here and there in the descriptions
14:21:32 <peter_thiessen> .. and also the challenges with existing systems - so UIs scope is to explore how systems could address the needs and preferences uses such as haptic feedback and other formats..
14:21:46 <peter_thiessen> .. this way you combine the exploration and user needs and preferences into one goal
14:22:05 <peter_thiessen> christos: yes it's ok - I see that we missed some key words
14:22:20 <peter_thiessen> shadi: we need to link all the sections together
14:22:49 <peter_thiessen> .. at the end of the scope we list 4 submissions we particularly are looking for
14:23:08 <peter_thiessen> .. are we looking for more or should we remove any?
14:23:37 <peter_thiessen> klaus: perhaps, term approaches could also use something like prototypes or solutions..
14:23:58 <peter_thiessen> shadi: approaches and prototypes or demonstrations..
14:24:12 <peter_thiessen> klaus: i'm not a fan of the term approaches..
14:24:40 <peter_thiessen> .. I think we are interested in new and crazy ideas
14:25:00 <peter_thiessen> christos: we can change that - new approaches including prototypes..
14:25:38 <peter_thiessen> shadi: I see the word approaches is also used in objectives - is approaches commonly used/understood?
14:25:55 <peter_thiessen> yehya: I would at least add something to it like what klaus said
14:26:03 <peter_thiessen> shadi: how about concepts and..
14:26:22 <peter_thiessen> christos: is there anything that would not fit under concepts and solutions
14:26:28 <shadi> "concepts and solutions"
14:26:53 <peter_thiessen> christos: concepts and solutions sounds even better
14:27:08 <peter_thiessen> shadi: anything else under the scope secion?
14:27:33 <peter_thiessen> klaus: one other thing of interest is about legislation and politics
14:27:42 <peter_thiessen> .. perhaps there are people working on this
14:27:51 <peter_thiessen> .. may go too far
14:28:04 <peter_thiessen> christos: not sure if this introduces a new path in the scope..
14:28:27 <peter_thiessen> christos: maybe we could include some related terms
14:28:40 <peter_thiessen> .. I don't know if we want to highligh/extend the scope
14:28:49 <peter_thiessen> shadi: I wonder if we're scope creeping
14:29:10 <peter_thiessen> .. the objectives would be the more specific research questions
14:29:38 <peter_thiessen> christos: we could include policy and legislation in one of the questions there - maybe in the 3rd or 4th bullet - probably the 3rd one
14:30:13 <peter_thiessen> shadi: I think it may be better to have as a separate question to carefully scope it
14:30:53 <peter_thiessen> .. do we mean discrimination - if you're selling navigation that you should also include accessibility, or consumer protection
14:31:37 <peter_thiessen> christos: the other thing, we have in the title accessible way-find.. the scope is how web tech relates to problems that way-finding systems
14:32:04 <peter_thiessen> .. I don't know if adding legislation will lead to a completely new path and out of scope discussions
14:32:32 <peter_thiessen> .. ok to include policy but not keep on words involving legislation..
14:32:45 <peter_thiessen> shadi: I think policy and legislation is a major driver for a11y..
14:33:21 <peter_thiessen> .. for instance a lot of countries have info about making web sites a11y but is also providing a way-finding system to be able to find a class on university
14:33:29 <Zakim> -peter_thiessen
14:33:33 <peter_thiessen> .. how do existing policies apply to existing technologies
14:34:32 <peter_thiessen> (op I'm blocked from re-joining - sorry guys)
14:35:09 <peter_thiessen> (could someone take over scribing?)
14:36:33 <peter_thiessen> (will use skype in the future and not sketchy voip software :)
14:36:41 <shadi> KM: think alone the term "legislation" may be good to provoke ideas
14:36:56 <shadi> ...can still decide to accept or not
14:38:11 <shadi> christos: can try to play around with that
14:38:48 <Zakim> -Yehya
14:38:49 <Zakim> -christos
14:38:50 <Zakim> -klaus
14:38:51 <Zakim> -Shadi
14:38:51 <Zakim> WAI_RDWG()9:30AM has ended
14:38:53 <Zakim> Attendees were christos, Yehya, peter_thiessen, Shadi, klaus
14:39:22 <peter_thiessen> bye all
14:44:58 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
14:44:58 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
14:44:58 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
14:45:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:45:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/09/03-rd-minutes.html trackbot
14:45:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
14:45:07 <RRSAgent> I see no action items