14:00:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #w3process
14:00:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/08/26-w3process-irc
14:00:44 <jeff> zakim, this is process
14:00:44 <Zakim> ok, jeff; that matches AB_(PROCESS)10:00AM
14:00:55 <jeff> zakim, who is on the phone
14:00:55 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', jeff
14:01:01 <jeff> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:01:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], Jeff, +1.416.770.aaaa
14:01:38 <Zakim> +dsinger
14:01:40 <jeff> who dialed from 416-770?
14:01:46 <Jay> Hi This is Jay
14:01:47 <jeff> who is the IPcaller?
14:02:09 <Zakim> +SteveZ
14:02:09 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #w3process
14:02:11 <jeff> zakim, [ipcaller] is Jay
14:02:12 <Zakim> +Jay; got it
14:02:25 <dsinger> zakim, who is here?
14:02:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jay, Jeff, +1.416.770.aaaa, dsinger, SteveZ
14:02:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see dsinger, RRSAgent, Zakim, jeff, Jay, Ralph, timeless, cwilso, trackbot
14:02:31 <jeff> zakim, aaaa is timeless
14:02:31 <Zakim> +timeless; got it
14:04:19 <Zakim> +Mike_Champion
14:04:23 <chaals> chaals has joined #w3process
14:05:11 <chaals> morning...
14:06:20 <jeff> zakim, pick a victim
14:06:20 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Jeff
14:06:35 <jeff> scribenick: jeff
14:06:45 <jeff> Steve: We have two tasks in parallel.
14:07:08 <jeff> ... Process 2015 is mostly two structural changes
14:07:32 <mchampion> mchampion has joined #w3process
14:09:02 <mchampion> q+
14:09:16 <jeff> ack mch
14:09:25 <jeff> chaals, are you joining?
14:10:28 <jeff> Mike: With so much substance in activities, perhaps we shouldn't drop them
14:10:30 <chaals> zakim, code?
14:10:30 <Zakim> the conference code is 7762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), chaals
14:10:31 <chaals> zakim, code?
14:10:33 <Zakim> the conference code is 7762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), chaals
14:10:46 <jeff> ... make process more tedious if we move everything into charters
14:10:59 <jeff> ... (unless we don't take it into charters)
14:11:01 <jeff> q+
14:11:07 <chaals> [I note there is a lot of stuff in Domains, but we don't seemto need them in the Process…]
14:11:08 <dsinger> can we skim all these issues before we take up Michael’s point?
14:11:16 <jeff> Steve: The suggested resolution is "do nothing" which addresses your concern.
14:11:30 <jeff> q-
14:12:11 <jeff> ... applaud Chaals for being careful - not throwing things away without a discussion
14:12:20 <jeff> Mike: Fair enough
14:13:11 <jeff> ... let's not add stuff just because they were in activities
14:13:27 <jeff> Steve: Yes, and I explained in my proposed issue resolution.
14:13:43 <jeff> Timeless: Art raised issue about extensions and someone raised about appeals.
14:13:56 <jeff> ... you wanted to do nothing, but I thought it was reasonable.
14:14:04 <jeff> Steve: Charter decisions are appealable.
14:14:29 <jeff> Timeless: On extension side - should be easy to extend for 12 months without much effort.
14:14:41 <chaals> [I will call, if Ralph's good offices succeed in getting me a connection...]
14:14:41 <chaals> zakim, call chaals-ms
14:14:41 <chaals> zakim, call chaals-es
14:14:41 <Zakim> ok, chaals; the call is being made
14:14:42 <Zakim> ok, chaals; the call is being made
14:14:42 <Zakim> +Chaals
14:14:43 <Zakim> +Chaals
14:15:03 <chaals> zakim, drop chaals-es
14:15:03 <Zakim> sorry, chaals, I do not see a party named 'chaals-es'
14:15:09 <chaals> zakim, drop chaals
14:15:09 <Zakim> 'chaals' is ambiguous, chaals
14:15:15 <chaals> zakim, who is here?
14:15:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jay, Jeff, timeless, dsinger, SteveZ, Mike_Champion, Chaals, Chaals (muted)
14:15:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see mchampion, chaals, dsinger, RRSAgent, Zakim, jeff, Jay, Ralph, timeless, cwilso, trackbot
14:15:19 <jeff> Steve: Main difference for activities - they allowed creation of chartered WGs without going to AC.
14:15:28 <Zakim> -Chaals
14:15:28 <SteveZ> SteveZ has joined #w3process
14:15:28 <jeff> ... AC insisted on having all charters reviewable
14:15:33 <Zakim> -Chaals
14:15:41 <jeff> ... so Activities became a useless burden
14:15:45 <chaals> zakim, call chaals-ms
14:15:45 <Zakim> ok, chaals; the call is being made
14:15:47 <Zakim> +Chaals
14:15:53 <jeff> Timeless: Please include that in removable notes.
14:15:59 <jeff> Steve: Sure.
14:16:05 <Zakim> -Chaals
14:16:20 <Zakim> +Chaals
14:16:46 <jeff> Steve: I did suggested resolutions for various issues.
14:16:52 <jeff> ... primarily do nothing.
14:17:02 <jeff> ... Issues 111-123
14:17:14 <jeff> ... let's get through them quickly.
14:17:29 <chaals> q+
14:17:30 <jeff> ... [repeats Mike discussion for Chaals' benefit]
14:18:23 <jeff> ... Issue 111 --> http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/111
14:18:40 <jeff> ... suggest moving similar statement to Section 6.2.2.
14:18:43 <chaals> q-
14:18:44 <jeff> ... Objections?
14:18:52 <chaals> [+1 to Steve's proposal]
14:18:55 <dsinger> seems superfluous
14:19:18 <jeff> ... let's close
14:19:20 <jeff> q+
14:19:35 <jeff> q-
14:19:52 <jeff> [discussion whether this overstates the obvious]
14:20:38 <jeff> Issue 112 --> http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/112
14:20:45 <chaals> RESOLUTION: The statement about activities being based on interest goes to the charter section
14:20:53 <dsinger> slightly more interesting;  activities represent areas where we may need staff with new expertise etc.
14:20:54 <jeff> Next we discuss Issue 112 -- > http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/112
14:20:55 <chaals> ISSUE-112
14:20:55 <trackbot> ISSUE-112 -- Remove Activity Proposals -- raised
14:20:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/112
14:21:27 <jeff> SZ: Suggest we do nothing.
14:21:46 <chaals> q+
14:21:51 <jeff> ... current process makes it clear that this is needed for charters
14:22:06 <jeff> ack cha
14:22:42 <jeff> CMN: Happy to remove
14:22:58 <jeff> SZ: I will close with suggested resolution.
14:23:08 <jeff> Issue 113
14:23:13 <jeff> ISSUE - 113
14:23:18 <jeff> ISSUE-113
14:23:18 <trackbot> ISSUE-113 -- Advisory Committee Review of Charter Extentions -- raised
14:23:18 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/113
14:24:23 <jeff> SZ: Extension of Activity Charter required AC review; WG charter does not
14:24:35 <jeff> ... this was by design; not by accident
14:24:49 <jeff> ... since Activities could create new charters
14:25:00 <dsinger> As long  as the process is clear that any formal Decision may be appealed, then all we need is to have a formal extension Decision email
14:25:07 <jeff> ... however WG extensions do not have change in scope and is appealable.
14:25:23 <jeff> ... seems adequate.  Recommend to do nothing.
14:25:27 <chaals> q+ to say there should be a review to extend charters
14:25:48 <jeff> CMN: Pointer for extensions to charter?
14:25:54 <jeff> SZ: Section 6.2.5
14:26:03 <jeff> CMN: I'm happy.  Do nothing.
14:26:10 <Jay> support Do nothing
14:26:12 <jeff> SZ: Objections?
14:26:22 <jeff> SZ: I will close with do nothing.
14:26:25 <jeff> ISSUE-114
14:26:25 <trackbot> ISSUE-114 -- Review period for charter extensions -- raised
14:26:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/114
14:27:03 <jeff> SZ: Becomes moot given our last action.
14:27:12 <jeff> ... propose to close and do nothing.
14:27:12 <jeff> q+
14:27:15 <jeff> ack ch
14:27:15 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say there should be a review to extend charters
14:27:41 <chaals> q+
14:27:59 <jeff> ack je
14:28:15 <jeff> Jeff: Is it a charter extension if we renew for 2 years with no other changes.
14:28:18 <jeff> SZ: no.
14:28:30 <jeff> ... it is a re-charter.
14:29:09 <jeff> ack cha
14:29:58 <jeff> CMN: I would like to see more AC review if the Team says "this is out of charter for 6 months - let's extend for a year - and do this several times."
14:30:14 <dsinger> we should look into a formal review requirement after a period of time;  there should be a max for the number of extensions
14:30:29 <jeff> Mike: That would defeat the purpose of putting a schedule in a charter.
14:30:36 <jeff> ... I can see extending up to 6 months.
14:30:43 <Zakim> + +1.512.257.aabb
14:30:50 <jeff> DS: Should be a maximum time for extensions.
14:30:54 <jeff> q+
14:31:11 <jeff> zakim, aabb is virginie
14:31:11 <Zakim> +virginie; got it
14:31:12 <chaals> zakim, aabb is virginie
14:31:13 <Zakim> sorry, chaals, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
14:31:45 <chaals> q+
14:31:48 <dsinger> yes, agree, it should be filed away as a new issue
14:32:14 <jeff> jeff: Can someone raise the issue of maximum extensions and have it part of Process2016
14:32:24 <jeff> CMN: Let's do it as part of Process2015.
14:32:32 <jeff> SZ: We can try, but no promises.
14:32:49 <jeff> ack jeff
14:32:52 <jeff> ack ch
14:32:53 <chaals> q-
14:33:00 <jeff> sz: Closing Issue 114 as moot
14:33:04 <jeff> ISSUE-115
14:33:04 <trackbot> ISSUE-115 -- Revising the Activity Statement for each Activity every 6 months -- raised
14:33:04 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/115
14:33:43 <jeff> SZ: Art sent to ac-forum on this as well.
14:33:50 <jeff> ... don't know what discussion was.
14:33:59 <chaals> q+
14:34:09 <jeff> ... but we agreed that maintenance of activities is done by Comm team
14:34:09 <dsinger> we should change this to require (a) yearly (b) a review of the working groups that includes them all in some suitable way
14:34:16 <jeff> ... hence up to comm team
14:34:22 <dsinger> q+
14:34:35 <jeff> q+ to remind folks that we give an update twice a year
14:34:43 <virginie> virginie has joined #w3process
14:34:47 <jeff> SZ: So I think we should not put this on charters
14:34:57 <jeff> CMN:
14:35:03 <virginie> zakim, who is on the phone ?
14:35:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jay, Jeff, timeless, dsinger, SteveZ, Mike_Champion, Chaals, virginie
14:35:21 <jeff> CMN: Makes sense to have requirement that team maintain information
14:35:36 <jeff> ... Dashboard discussion is around the same issue.
14:35:52 <jeff> ... e.g. at AC meetings
14:35:58 <jeff> ... don't have wording
14:36:02 <jeff> acj cha
14:36:05 <jeff> ack cha
14:36:24 <jeff> ack dsi
14:36:43 <jeff> DS: Having Team report on every activity means we should report on every WG.
14:36:49 <jeff> ... team can structure how they like.
14:37:24 <Zakim> +Ralph
14:37:29 <Ralph> [Ralph joins]
14:37:53 <dsinger> I want to avoid that we get zombie WGs that don’t get reported on and no-one notices
14:38:15 <jeff> Jeff: Point out that semiannual pre-AC meeting report achieves much of this.
14:38:20 <jeff> ack je
14:38:20 <Zakim> jeff, you wanted to remind folks that we give an update twice a year
14:38:35 <jeff> timeless: +1 to DS and CMN
14:38:48 <jeff> SZ: Can someone take an action items to draft text?
14:38:51 <chaals> ACTION: chaals to draft text to keep the requirement for informing AC on status of WGs
14:38:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-32 - Draft text to keep the requirement for informing ac on status of wgs [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2014-09-02].
14:39:02 <Jay> +1 to DS too
14:39:12 <dsinger> make that ALL WGs
14:39:42 <jeff> SZ:  Issue 115 is Open pending the resolution of Action 32
14:41:13 <jeff> ISSUE-116
14:41:14 <trackbot> ISSUE-116 -- Announcing a Working Group Charter -- raised
14:41:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/116
14:41:43 <jeff> SZ: There is already text for a new WG
14:41:53 <jeff> ... Intent to create as well as announce the charter itself
14:42:19 <jeff> ... Text for announcing activities already exists for charters
14:42:27 <jeff> ... suggested resolution is to do nothing.
14:42:42 <jeff> timeless: That section also discusses processes to define workshops
14:42:42 <chaals> q+
14:42:54 <jeff> ... are workshops written about elsewhere?
14:43:09 <jeff> CMN: No, workshops are defined elsewhere.  No concern.
14:43:13 <jeff> ack ch
14:43:18 <jeff> timeless: Good
14:43:28 <jeff> SZ: Objections to "do nothing?"
14:43:35 <jeff> ... 116 is closed
14:43:37 <jeff> ISSUE-117
14:43:37 <trackbot> ISSUE-117 -- Requirement for dissent in the AC Review of an Activity Proposal to Appeal an approval -- raised
14:43:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/117
14:44:40 <jeff> SZ: Section on appeals (8.2) already says you can only appeal if you dissented.
14:44:50 <jeff> ... hence no need to add text to repeat statement
14:45:04 <jeff> ... proposed resolution is "do nothing"
14:45:14 <jeff> ... Objections?
14:45:27 <jeff> ... 117 is closed.
14:45:30 <jeff> ISSUE-118
14:45:30 <trackbot> ISSUE-118 -- Context Informaton in Activity Proposals -- raised
14:45:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/118
14:46:17 <dsinger> 118 is interesting.  this is the general question “are we working in the right technical areas?  is our strategic direction good? do we fit in, overlap, etc.?”
14:46:32 <jeff> SZ: Requirement that activity proposal have context about the relation with the rest of the world.
14:46:52 <jeff> ... suggested resolution.  information should be in announcement of charter.
14:46:54 <jeff> q+
14:47:06 <dsinger> I fear charters are too fine-grained.
14:47:24 <jeff> ... violates Mike's criteria of having additional effort
14:47:35 <dsinger> I’d like to refer this to the AB for input and discussion on strategic direction making
14:47:39 <dsinger> q+
14:48:01 <Zakim> -virginie
14:48:44 <jeff> Jeff: Yes, Mike's concern seems appropriate.
14:48:54 <jeff> DS: Also agree with concern.
14:49:05 <jeff> ... WG charters are too fine-grained.
14:49:25 <jeff> ... AB should discuss separately how we make sure that overall technical direction is aligned.
14:49:37 <jeff> SZ: I see two way out of this.
14:50:02 <jeff> ... 1. Close this issue and ask AB to open another issue to track general deployment
14:50:20 <jeff> ... 2. Keep this issue open and await input from AB.
14:50:32 <jeff> ... I would prefer the first solution.
14:50:40 <dsinger> slight preference for the latter, in case the AB decides something should happen in the process
14:51:01 <chaals> [+1 to Dsinger]
14:51:07 <chaals> q+
14:51:12 <jeff> ack je
14:51:14 <jeff> ack ds
14:51:25 <jeff> SZ: I would like to close it because it does not go in charters
14:51:31 <jeff> DS: Gives us a way to track it.
14:52:02 <jeff> CMN: We are not introducing a new requirement.
14:52:21 <jeff> ... no metrics on whether an explanation is sufficient.
14:52:54 <dsinger> let’s take it to the AB strategic direction discussion at the upcoming f2f?
14:52:55 <jeff> SZ: I felt that way too, but 2-3 people spoke the opposite direction.
14:53:05 <jeff> CMN: But I think this is not new work.
14:53:17 <jeff> SZ: I will leave it open for now
14:53:25 <jeff> ... I will indicate the positions.
14:54:07 <jeff> ... David, can you raise an AB issue?
14:54:17 <jeff> CMN: Why can't that be an issue here?
14:54:26 <jeff> SZ: Maybe it is not an issue on process?
14:54:37 <jeff> CMN: But it should still be here until we determine otherwise.
14:54:49 <jeff> SZ: So we will leave it open.
14:54:54 <jeff> ISSUE-119
14:54:54 <trackbot> ISSUE-119 -- Description of the Activity/Charter's scope -- raised
14:54:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/119
14:55:36 <jeff> DS: Similar to 118
14:55:39 <jeff> SZ: Deal with it next week.
14:55:59 <jeff> ISSUE-121
14:55:59 <trackbot> ISSUE-121 -- Intellectual property information.in charters -- raised
14:55:59 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/issues/121
14:56:28 <jeff> SZ: Suggest resolution of "do nothing"
14:56:37 <jeff> ... reqt already there for charters.
14:56:47 <jeff> DS: Where is the text
14:56:51 <jeff> SZ: At the bottom
14:57:23 <jeff> DS: Links fail
14:57:42 <Ralph> [links work for Ralph]
14:57:49 <jeff> rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/26-w3process-minutes.html jeff
14:58:07 <jeff> DS: I'm concerned that this is important.  Burying it might make it too hard to find.
14:58:09 <chaals> q+
14:58:15 <jeff> SZ: But we don't repeat text.
14:58:28 <Ralph> [[
14:58:30 <Ralph> The following obligations shall apply to all participants in W3C Working Groups. These obligations will be referenced from each Working Group charter and Calls for Participation.
14:58:31 <Ralph> ]]
14:58:34 <Ralph> -- http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/#sec-Obligations
14:58:35 <jeff> DS: As an editorial change, we should clarify the exposition.
14:59:04 <jeff> SZ: Dave, will you take an action to propose text?
14:59:15 <jeff> ack ch
14:59:30 <jeff> CMN: This is important.  Needs to be presented.  Not part of patent process.
14:59:37 <jeff> ... strategic information about the universe.
14:59:44 <jeff> ... belongs in chartering section.
14:59:52 <jeff> SZ: Will you take an action?
15:00:31 <jeff> action: on chaals to propose text to update 6.2.6 to deal with issue 121
15:00:31 <trackbot> Error finding 'on'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/users>.
15:00:38 <dsinger> zakim, who is making noise?
15:00:49 <Zakim> dsinger, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jeff (9%), dsinger (21%), SteveZ (9%), Chaals (21%)
15:00:59 <Zakim> -Chaals
15:01:02 <jeff> action: on chaals, to propose text to update 6.2.6 to deal with issue 121
15:01:02 <trackbot> Error finding 'on'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/community/w3process/track/users>.
15:01:02 <Zakim> -Mike_Champion
15:01:22 <Jay> bye
15:01:24 <jeff> action: chaals to propose text to update 6.2.6 to deal with issue 121
15:01:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-33 - Propose text to update 6.2.6 to deal with issue 121 [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2014-09-02].
15:01:31 <Zakim> -timeless
15:01:31 <jeff> [adjourned]
15:01:31 <Zakim> -dsinger
15:01:38 <Zakim> -Jeff
15:01:46 <Zakim> -Jay
15:01:50 <Zakim> -Ralph
15:01:53 <jeff> rrsagent, make minutes
15:01:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/26-w3process-minutes.html jeff
15:02:03 <Ralph> zakim, list attendees
15:02:03 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Jeff, +1.416.770.aaaa, dsinger, SteveZ, Jay, timeless, Mike_Champion, Chaals, +1.512.257.aabb, virginie, Ralph
15:04:13 <Zakim> -SteveZ
15:04:14 <Zakim> AB_(PROCESS)10:00AM has ended
15:04:14 <Zakim> Attendees were Jeff, +1.416.770.aaaa, dsinger, SteveZ, Jay, timeless, Mike_Champion, Chaals, +1.512.257.aabb, virginie, Ralph
15:40:11 <SteveZ> rrsagent, make minutes
15:40:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/26-w3process-minutes.html SteveZ
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