IRC log of dap on 2014-08-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:25:48 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dap
13:25:48 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/08/07-dap-irc
13:25:50 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:25:50 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #dap
13:25:52 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DAP
13:25:52 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 35 minutes
13:25:53 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference
13:25:53 [trackbot]
Date: 07 August 2014
13:26:12 [fjh]
fjh has changed the topic to: dap 3279 ; agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Aug/0007.html
13:26:17 [fjh]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Aug/0007.html
13:26:38 [fjh]
Chair: Frederick_Hirsch
13:26:43 [fjh]
Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
13:27:19 [fjh]
Topic: Welcome, agenda review, scribe selection, announcements
13:58:32 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
13:58:39 [Zakim]
+Lisa_DeLuca
13:58:40 [mats]
Present+ Mars_Wichmann
13:58:50 [mats]
Present+ Mays_Wichmann
13:58:51 [LisaDeLuca_IBM]
LisaDeLuca_IBM has joined #dap
13:59:39 [Zakim]
+??P9
13:59:46 [anssik_]
anssik_ has joined #dap
13:59:59 [mats]
Zakim, ??P9 is mats
14:00:00 [Zakim]
+mats; got it
14:00:03 [anssik_]
Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
14:00:25 [LisaDeLuca_IBM]
Present+ Lisa_DeLuca
14:00:51 [Zakim]
+??P14
14:01:08 [anssik_]
zakim, ??P14 isme
14:01:08 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P14 isme', anssik_
14:01:10 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:01:11 [fjh]
zakim, ipcaller is me
14:01:11 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
14:01:28 [Zakim]
+gmandyam
14:01:34 [anssik_]
zakim, ??P14 is me
14:01:35 [Zakim]
+anssik_; got it
14:01:49 [gmandyam]
gmandyam has joined #dap
14:01:55 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
14:01:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Lisa_DeLuca, mats, anssik_, fjh, gmandyam
14:01:57 [Zakim]
On IRC I see gmandyam, anssik_, LisaDeLuca_IBM, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, marcosc_, mats, richt, Josh_Soref___, mounir, slightlyoff, tobie, trackbot
14:02:24 [fjh]
Present- Mays_Wichmann
14:02:34 [fjh]
Present+ Mats_Wichmann
14:02:57 [fjh]
Present+ Giri_Mandyam
14:03:01 [fjh]
ScribeNick: fjh
14:03:29 [fjh]
Media Capture TF update on list (2 July): http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Jul/0017.html
14:03:41 [fjh]
TPAC (27-31 Oct, Santa Clara) Registration now open, http://www.w3.org/2014/11/TPAC/
14:03:45 [Cathy_]
Cathy_ has joined #dap
14:03:58 [fjh]
Topic: Minutes approval
14:04:25 [fjh]
Approve minutes from 26 June 2014
14:04:25 [fjh]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Jun/att-0116/minutes-2014-06-26.html
14:04:32 [fjh]
RESOLUTION: Minutes from 26 June 2014 are approved
14:04:41 [fjh]
Topic: Last Call conclusion and CR publication of HTML Media Capture, Light, Vibration
14:04:56 [fjh]
Last Call drafts of HTML Media Capture, Light, Vibration published, LC ended 24 July 2014
14:05:03 [fjh]
No last call comments on HTML Media Capture.
14:05:04 [fjh]
No last call comments on Light Events.
14:05:12 [fjh]
One Last Call Comment on Vibration API, see https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/43696/WD-vibration-20140619/2945
14:05:13 [fjh]
Proposed resolution: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Aug/0000.html
14:05:43 [fjh]
Proposed RESOLUTION: Adopt proposed resolution for LC-2945, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Aug/0000.html
14:06:11 [fjh]
RESOLUTION: Adopt proposed resolution for LC-2945, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Aug/0000.html
14:06:33 [fjh]
action: anssik to add resolution to LC-2945 to draft
14:06:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-706 - Add resolution to lc-2945 to draft [on Anssi Kostiainen - due 2014-08-14].
14:06:49 [fjh]
anssik: should it be a note
14:06:53 [fjh]
fjh: normative is better
14:06:55 [Zakim]
+Cathy
14:07:50 [fjh]
fjh: here is response from Microsoft re Lisa comment http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Aug/0011.html
14:08:47 [fjh]
anssi: assume you aligning implementation with W3C
14:09:05 [fjh]
lisa: updated javascript bridge so shoud affect all across platform
14:09:26 [fjh]
… should be good for all realeases should go into Cordova 3.6, next month
14:09:35 [fjh]
s/releases/realeases/
14:09:55 [fjh]
lisa: which should we tackle next
14:11:43 [LisaDeLuca_IBM]
http://apache.markmail.org/search/?q=org.apache.incubator.callback-dev+list%3Aorg.apache.incubator.callback-dev+order%3Adate-backward+w3c#query:org.apache.incubator.callback-dev%20list%3Aorg.apache.incubator.callback-dev%20order%3Adate-backward%20w3c+page:1+mid:3qrirxhvzumzkyh2+state:results
14:11:45 [fjh]
fjh: think you might want to consider HTML Media Capture or Light Events, since stable and moving forward
14:11:57 [fjh]
lisa: HTML Media Capture would make sense, don’t have anything for Light
14:12:08 [fjh]
fjh: right, and we of course welcome feedback on battery
14:12:17 [fjh]
lisa: we have some concern about battery, here is link
14:12:19 [anssik_]
http://plugins.cordova.io/#/package/org.awokenwell.proximity
14:13:19 [fjh]
fjh: Plan and changes for CR publications: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Aug/0001.html
14:14:57 [fjh]
RESOLUTION: Start 2 week CfC ending 21 August to publish CR drafts of HTML Media Capture, Ambient Light Events, and the Vibration API on 28 August, with details as noted in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Aug/0001.html
14:15:18 [fjh]
action: fjh to send CfC for CR for HTML Media Capture, Ambient Light Events, Vibration API
14:15:18 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-707 - Send cfc for cr for html media capture, ambient light events, vibration api [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2014-08-14].
14:15:26 [fjh]
fjh: suggest we stay with old process for now
14:17:00 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
14:17:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Lisa_DeLuca, mats, anssik_, fjh, gmandyam, Cathy
14:17:03 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Cathy_, gmandyam, anssik, LisaDeLuca_IBM, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, marcosc_, mats, richt, Josh_Soref___, mounir, slightlyoff, tobie, trackbot
14:17:15 [fjh]
Present+ Cathy_Chan
14:19:32 [fjh]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Aug/0012.html
14:20:15 [fjh]
Topic: Vibration Test updates
14:20:26 [fjh]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Jul/0052.html
14:20:52 [fjh]
some vibration tests are stil missing
14:21:14 [fjh]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Jul/0054.html
14:21:20 [Zakim]
-gmandyam
14:21:48 [fjh]
anssik: I think we agreed he can write tests even though test facilitator as long as we get review, so I can ask him to write tests for those that are missing
14:21:53 [fjh]
fjh: yes, that is right
14:22:02 [fjh]
fjh: please ask him to do this
14:22:10 [fjh]
anssik: only three missing, one no longer relevant
14:22:32 [fjh]
anssik: I can review the tests
14:23:02 [fjh]
anssik: anssik to ask zhiqiang to complete vibration tests
14:23:18 [fjh]
action: anssik to ask zhiqiang to complete vibration tests
14:23:18 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-708 - to ask zhiqiang to complete vibration tests [on Anssi Kostiainen - due 2014-08-14].
14:23:38 [fjh]
anssik: firefox bug fixed as part of this test
14:23:56 [fjh]
fjh: yes, that was good http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Jul/0052.html
14:24:17 [fjh]
Topic: Charter Update
14:24:23 [fjh]
fjh: I think we need Dom for this discussion
14:24:31 [fjh]
proposed Wake Lock addition: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Jul/0055.html
14:24:39 [fjh]
WebIntents, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Jul/0023.html (Paul Kinlan)
14:24:57 [fjh]
fjh: not sure what we can do now on this call, please review
14:25:23 [fjh]
anssik: webintents removed from WebApps charter in latest update
14:26:26 [lgombos]
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14:28:19 [fjh]
anssik: what does this mean with respect to the Task Force
14:30:47 [fjh]
anssik: if it is not in the WebApps charter then I do not believe it makes sense to continue a joint task force, since there could be associated IPR obligations
14:30:54 [fjh]
s/anssik/fjh/
14:31:15 [fjh]
fjh: that said, I think we can keep the Task Force list and have a Task force for the DAP WG if useful
14:31:35 [fjh]
fjh: we should involve Dom in discussions, he understands bigger chartering picture
14:31:42 [fjh]
fjh: across the groups
14:32:50 [fjh]
fjh: we already have WebIntents work in the DAP charter, given the interest probably makes sense to keep, maybe with some modifications
14:33:11 [fjh]
fjh: presumable we will review a draft charter before formally progressing to recharter
14:33:32 [fjh]
fjh: lets defer discussion until we have Dom on the call with more facts
14:34:00 [fjh]
Topic: Battery - Cordova Feedback
14:34:13 [LisaDeLuca_IBM]
http://apache.markmail.org/search/?q=org.apache.incubator.callback-dev+list%3Aorg.apache.incubator.callback-dev+order%3Adate-backward+w3c#query:org.apache.incubator.callback-dev%20list%3Aorg.apache.incubator.callback-dev%20order%3Adate-backward%20w3c+page:1+mid:3qrirxhvzumzkyh2+state:results
14:34:21 [fjh]
lisa: we have some concern about battery, here is link
14:34:42 [fjh]
“The spec is flawed in that there's no way we could implement it as it
14:34:43 [fjh]
stands. The spec needs to be reworked to be more event driven and
14:34:44 [fjh]
asynchronous. Right now it's too much like device with everything up
14:34:44 [fjh]
front."
14:35:43 [fjh]
lisa: will follow up
14:35:59 [fjh]
fjh: a concrete proposal would be helpful
14:36:12 [fjh]
anssi: not sure what this means to be “more event driven"
14:36:52 [fjh]
anssi: we already have events in the spec
14:37:01 [fjh]
anssi: too high level comment, need concrete feedback
14:37:06 [fjh]
lisa: yes, will ask
14:37:55 [fjh]
fjh: this is the only remaining Cordova issue/feedback, correct?
14:37:57 [fjh]
lisa: yes
14:38:19 [fjh]
fjh: will raise issue on this one to track it
14:38:30 [fjh]
Topic: Open Battery Issues
14:38:56 [fjh]
review issues and status noted in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Aug/0006.html
14:39:13 [fjh]
ISSUE-164?
14:39:14 [trackbot]
ISSUE-164 -- Correct default for charging time if unknown in battery -- open
14:39:14 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/164
14:39:43 [fjh]
fjh: can we close
14:39:49 [fjh]
anssik: ok
14:39:53 [fjh]
cathy: ok
14:39:58 [fjh]
close ISSUE-164
14:39:58 [trackbot]
Closed ISSUE-164.
14:40:09 [fjh]
ISSUE-165?
14:40:09 [trackbot]
ISSUE-165 -- Clarify language around multiple batteries -- open
14:40:09 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/165
14:40:25 [fjh]
fjh: can we close
14:40:28 [fjh]
anssik: yes
14:40:39 [fjh]
cathy: yes
14:40:44 [fjh]
close ISSUE=165
14:40:52 [fjh]
close ISSUE-165
14:40:52 [trackbot]
Closed ISSUE-165.
14:40:58 [fjh]
ISSUE-166?
14:40:58 [trackbot]
ISSUE-166 -- Should getBattery() always return the same promise? -- open
14:40:58 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/166
14:42:02 [fjh]
mounir’s answer http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Jul/0006.html
14:42:38 [fjh]
fjh: we are treating as one virtual battery, so why would you ever have more than one battery manager?
14:43:33 [fjh]
fjh: this should stay open, no resolution
14:43:42 [fjh]
anssik: spec has not been updated
14:45:07 [fjh]
anssik: I will check and respond to mounir on the list
14:45:47 [fjh]
anssik: to follow upon on ISSUE-166 and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Jul/0003.html
14:46:05 [fjh]
action: anssik to follow upon on ISSUE-166 and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2014Jul/0003.html
14:46:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-709 - Follow upon on issue-166 and http://lists.w3.org/archives/public/public-device-apis/2014jul/0003.html [on Anssi Kostiainen - due 2014-08-14].
14:47:10 [fjh]
fjh: we need a concrete proposal so we can be clear on what we agree to. One Promise, one BatteryManager?
14:47:39 [fjh]
anssik: no argument that BatteryManager should be same instance
14:48:10 [fjh]
fjh: why does it matter whether promise is same or not?
14:48:14 [fjh]
anssi: comparision?
14:48:29 [fjh]
anssi: this may be a minor issue
14:48:33 [fjh]
fjh: need to resolve it
14:49:06 [fjh]
ISSUE-167?
14:49:06 [trackbot]
ISSUE-167 -- Should Promises be used in Battery API -- open
14:49:06 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/167
14:50:04 [fjh]
fjh: we were accomodating the feedback to use promises uniformly, but maybe that was a mistake
14:50:52 [fjh]
anssik: need opportunity to prompt user before getting battery - advantage of promises
14:51:10 [fjh]
anssik: but slight advantage of having data avaialble syncnronouslly
14:51:28 [fjh]
anssik: first access to battery manager slower than subsequent times
14:51:49 [anssik]
https://twitter.com/ebidel/status/494963550683533312
14:51:50 [fjh]
fjh: I thought advantage was usability for code writing, given potential complexity of nested call backs
14:52:59 [fjh]
anssik: true but not used that way in this API so not relevant, since only giving battery manager handler instance, not for the events
14:53:10 [fjh]
anssik: not used here as they are primarily designed
14:55:03 [fjh]
anssik: google concern is performance
14:55:17 [fjh]
fjh: what about web components?
14:55:26 [anssik]
https://gist.github.com/ebidel/d9c591d77b4c2b68c347
14:57:11 [fjh]
anssi: have an implementation for old implementation and for the new
14:57:24 [fjh]
fjh: do we have measurements for the old implementation?
14:57:29 [anssik]
https://gist.github.com/rwaldron/850590359d298e35bc61
14:57:44 [lgombos]
lgombos has joined #dap
14:58:31 [fjh]
fjh: look there is long startup time on old design as well as new for desktop
14:58:45 [fjh]
fjh: something like object instantiation
14:58:56 [fjh]
fjh: not sure it makes sense for us to analyzie in real time
15:01:04 [fjh]
anssik: should we publish
15:01:18 [fjh]
fjh: think we need to look at some of the bigger issues first
15:02:08 [fjh]
ISSUE-168?
15:02:08 [trackbot]
ISSUE-168 -- getBattery() vs. requestBattery() pattern -- open
15:02:08 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/168
15:03:14 [fjh]
anssik: I can summarize issues on the list
15:04:28 [fjh]
fjh: first api was simpler so why not use that? what is the real problem at issue?
15:05:43 [fjh]
anssik: multiprocess but we’ve heard both ways
15:09:39 [Zakim]
-anssik_
15:10:06 [Zakim]
+??P14
15:10:08 [fjh]
anssik: will send summary to list of technical issues and key points
15:10:27 [anssik]
I can try to summarize on the list what I gather as pros and cons for both the designs
15:10:50 [fjh]
fjh: will suggest going back to original design, ask why not, simplest
15:11:48 [fjh]
anssik: issue of dealing with conflicting implementations, google shipping behind run time flag in canary
15:12:01 [fjh]
fjh: ok so lets take this to the list
15:12:36 [fjh]
http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/168
15:14:10 [fjh]
fjh: anssi, I think you need to look at this offline and talk to mounir
15:14:32 [fjh]
action: anssik to look at ISSUE-168 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/168
15:14:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-710 - Look at issue-168 http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/168 [on Anssi Kostiainen - due 2014-08-14].
15:15:54 [fjh]
Topic: Action Review
15:16:05 [fjh]
ACTION-704?
15:16:05 [trackbot]
ACTION-704 -- Lisa Seacat DeLuca to Follow up re closing january cordova feedback -- due 2014-07-03 -- OPEN
15:16:05 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/704
15:16:14 [fjh]
close ACTION-704
15:16:14 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-704.
15:16:24 [fjh]
ACTION-705?
15:16:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-705 -- Anssi Kostiainen to Add warning to Battery API that (naive) implementation of API could negatively affect battery life -- due 2014-08-11 -- OPEN
15:16:24 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/actions/705
15:18:12 [fjh]
fjh: can defer, will leave open for now, will probably be resolved with other fixes
15:18:33 [fjh]
close ACTION-700
15:18:33 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-700.
15:18:55 [fjh]
close ACTION-702
15:18:55 [trackbot]
Closed ACTION-702.
15:19:02 [fjh]
Topic: Cordova next steps
15:19:14 [fjh]
lisa: HTML Media Capture makes sense, even if it is stable
15:19:30 [fjh]
anssik: might be different than plugins
15:19:42 [fjh]
anssik: might be a challenge
15:24:05 [Zakim]
-Cathy
15:24:07 [Zakim]
-Lisa_DeLuca
15:24:07 [Zakim]
-mats
15:24:12 [Zakim]
-??P14
15:24:32 [fjh]
lisa: can look at it, will send a message to the list about any difficulties
15:24:46 [fjh]
fjh: good to get an idea, can then decide what to do next
15:24:52 [fjh]
Topic: Other Business
15:25:18 [fjh]
fjh: Anssik can you please talk to mounir, let’s see if we can understand the core issues, get concrete proposals for battery
15:25:43 [fjh]
fjh: what can we simplify
15:25:56 [anssik]
mounir, if you are lurking on the IRC feel free to participate in the discussion
15:26:10 [fjh]
fjh: next call scheduled for 21 August expect we will discuss the charter if Dom is back
15:26:18 [fjh]
s/mounir, if you are lurking on the IRC feel free to participate in the discussion//
15:26:26 [fjh]
Topic: Adjourn
15:26:30 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:26:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/07-dap-minutes.html fjh
15:27:39 [Zakim]
-fjh
15:27:40 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
15:27:40 [Zakim]
Attendees were Lisa_DeLuca, mats, fjh, gmandyam, anssik_, Cathy
16:06:40 [fjh]
Present- Mars_Wichmann
16:07:58 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:07:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/07-dap-minutes.html fjh
16:08:34 [fjh]
s/realeases/releases/
16:08:51 [fjh]
s/all realeases/all releases/
16:09:08 [fjh]
s;s/releases/*;;
16:10:01 [fjh]
s/close ISSUE=165//
16:10:23 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:10:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/07-dap-minutes.html fjh
16:37:45 [lgombos]
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