IRC log of webizen on 2014-08-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

11:50:27 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #webizen
11:50:27 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/08/01-webizen-irc
11:50:31 [jeff]
agenda+ goals
11:50:33 [cgueret]
cgueret has joined #webizen
11:50:41 [jeff]
agenda+ success criteria
11:50:51 [jeff]
agenda+ target markets and marketing study
11:50:58 [jeff]
agenda+ Brainstorming
11:52:10 [cgueret]
Hi there! Zakim tells me I'm the first one on the phone, is that normal ?
11:52:36 [jeff]
yes, Christophe, most people will dial in a minute before the hour, until 5 minutes after.
11:52:58 [cgueret]
ok! :)
11:54:40 [darobin]
darobin has joined #webizen
11:58:08 [LJWatson]
LJWatson has joined #webizen
11:58:34 [Julian-Nominet]
Julian-Nominet has joined #webizen
12:00:09 [veronica]
zakim, this is webizen
12:00:09 [Zakim]
ok, veronica; that matches Team_JEFF(WEBIZEN)8:00AM
12:00:12 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
12:00:37 [Zakim]
-??P0
12:00:43 [LJWatson]
zakim, [IPcaller] is LJWatson
12:00:43 [Zakim]
+LJWatson; got it
12:01:00 [Georg]
Georg has joined #webizen
12:01:02 [Zakim]
+??P0
12:01:11 [cgueret]
zakim, ??P0 is me
12:01:11 [Zakim]
+cgueret; got it
12:01:18 [cgueret]
^_^
12:01:21 [jeff]
zakim, who is making noise?
12:01:25 [cgueret]
zakim, mute me
12:01:25 [Zakim]
cgueret should now be muted
12:01:36 [Zakim]
jeff, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: cgueret (4%)
12:02:09 [Zakim]
+ +44.778.839.aabb
12:02:52 [veronica]
audio is good for me
12:03:14 [Zakim]
+MarkC
12:03:30 [veronica]
scribenick: veronica
12:03:58 [veronica]
jeff: history of this project...
12:04:16 [veronica]
... about 9 mos ago, based on input from Alex Russell at TPAC meeting
12:04:30 [veronica]
... Tim asked we design a program for the broader world
12:04:44 [veronica]
... presented to recent AC mtg in June
12:04:58 [veronica]
... but the specific program we designed did not meet approval
12:05:08 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
12:05:25 [veronica]
... some on AC thought we were offering too few, too much, not right benefits
12:05:46 [veronica]
... so here we are, working on a new program
12:05:56 [jeff]
zakim, ipcaller is kimberly
12:05:56 [Zakim]
+kimberly; got it
12:05:57 [veronica]
[kimberly west just joined]
12:06:10 [jeff]
agenda ?
12:06:15 [veronica]
jeff: so that was the background
12:06:22 [veronica]
... we had some brainstoriming on email list
12:06:30 [veronica]
... this is the first call
12:06:44 [veronica]
... intent to meet half a dozen times
12:07:05 [Zakim]
-cgueret
12:07:07 [Kimberly]
Kimberly has joined #webizen
12:07:08 [veronica]
... agenda - we should agree on goals of the program
12:07:29 [veronica]
... this is important to get lined up in the begining
12:07:34 [Zakim]
+??P0
12:07:39 [cgueret]
zakim, ??P0 is me
12:07:39 [Zakim]
+cgueret; got it
12:07:41 [cgueret]
zakim, mute me
12:07:41 [Zakim]
cgueret should now be muted
12:07:45 [veronica]
... success criteria; we need to know what that means
12:08:11 [veronica]
... hopefully first 3 agenda items can be accomplished quickly
12:08:25 [veronica]
... any questions before we start?
12:08:37 [veronica]
[no responses]
12:08:44 [MarkCrawford]
MarkCrawford has joined #webizen
12:08:49 [veronica]
jeff: hearing no questions or comments
12:09:00 [veronica]
... start with goals of program
12:09:09 [veronica]
... in email discussion prior to this call
12:09:28 [veronica]
... one of the challenges [TV Ramen], what is the goal?
12:09:54 [jeff]
A. W3C wants to establish itself as the primary steward of the Web, and toward that goal wants to have individuals participate.
12:09:55 [jeff]
B. Countries grant citizenships -- W3C wants to create Webizens a la Citizens
12:09:55 [jeff]
C. W3C wants to involve the wider community -- rather than be seen as a place where only companies play
12:09:55 [jeff]
D. W3C wants to create an additional revenue stream
12:09:55 [jeff]
E. Degrading further: W3C wants to sell t-shirts and coffee-mugs that are "branded".
12:10:55 [veronica]
jeff: on email chain, we want to involve a wider community
12:10:57 [jeff]
The idea of the program is to allow individuals to affiliate with the Web standards community ... we seek to make available a new means to congregate as a community.
12:11:07 [veronica]
... allow indiv to engage
12:11:23 [veronica]
... so I'm interested on POV from those on call
12:11:33 [cgueret]
q+ to comment
12:11:40 [LJWatson]
+1 for C
12:11:43 [veronica]
... from T.V.'s list, what I've mentioned or something else
12:11:47 [cgueret]
zakim, unmute me
12:11:47 [Zakim]
cgueret should no longer be muted
12:12:06 [veronica]
cristophe: I really this idea for wider community to join
12:12:24 [veronica]
... not fond of B
12:12:39 [MarkCrawford]
Several member companies run ecosystems. These ecosystems consist of customers, partners, etc and provide a forum for discussing issues around using products, sharing solutions, providing feedback to the host company, and for the host company to share information out. Was this type of approach considered in the original group
12:12:48 [cgueret]
zakim, mute me
12:12:48 [Zakim]
cgueret should now be muted
12:12:50 [veronica]
jeff: thanks for that input
12:13:36 [veronica]
... I like Mark' comments
12:13:58 [veronica]
... in my view, probably a broader and more complete; gives it more meat
12:14:12 [veronica]
... conceptually, we were thinking of soemthing like C
12:14:19 [veronica]
... but I like Mark's language
12:14:26 [veronica]
... goes beyond high level goal
12:14:30 [MarkCrawford]
SAP for example offers recognition for top participants
12:14:37 [veronica]
... more into the expected activities
12:14:44 [jeff]
q?
12:14:47 [Julian-Nominet]
Q
12:14:47 [jeff]
ack cg
12:14:48 [Zakim]
cgueret, you wanted to comment
12:14:59 [cgueret]
zakim, mute me
12:14:59 [Zakim]
cgueret should now be muted
12:15:07 [Kimberly]
It seems to me that A and C are related
12:15:28 [veronica]
julian: I thinkwhat Mark put down is interesting
12:15:40 [veronica]
... do we need to look at this from a specific mission?
12:16:12 [veronica]
... for instance, there are lots of profit organizations that concentrate on professionalis,
12:16:24 [Zakim]
-kimberly
12:16:25 [veronica]
... are we trying to educate?
12:16:47 [veronica]
jeff: I think that's a great comment
12:16:59 [veronica]
... initially the mission defined was weak
12:17:24 [veronica]
... ehancing affiliation less defined then what u described
12:17:34 [veronica]
Julian: greater creativity
12:17:45 [veronica]
jeff: that's a good add; we should have a mission
12:18:15 [veronica]
... let's take more comments on mission
12:18:18 [MarkCrawford]
Not to get too pedantic, but if we have a mission, then we should have a vision of where we want to be
12:18:29 [jeff]
Mission candidates: Affiliation, Professionalism, Education, Creativity
12:18:32 [veronica]
... affiliation, professionalism, education and crativity
12:18:59 [veronica]
s/crativity/creativity
12:19:10 [veronica]
jeff: so let's get comments on Mission
12:19:12 [jeff]
q?
12:19:15 [LJWatson]
q+
12:19:16 [cgueret]
MarkCrawford: wouldn't that be what was listed as goal A ?
12:19:39 [veronica]
Leoni: our mission is to create a more inclusive standards community
12:20:02 [MarkCrawford]
In answer to Christophe - I would say that A is the vision
12:20:14 [jeff]
ack lj
12:20:17 [jeff]
q?
12:20:18 [veronica]
jeff: I would identify that as similar to a stronger affiliation; let's replace with Inclusion
12:20:32 [veronica]
... we don't have to decide everything on today's call
12:20:34 [LJWatson]
zakim, ack me
12:20:34 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
12:20:38 [bkardell_]
bkardell_ has joined #Webizen
12:20:46 [cgueret]
MarkCrawford: +1
12:20:58 [veronica]
next agenda
12:21:03 [veronica]
next agenda
12:21:11 [veronica]
jeff: criteria next
12:21:27 [veronica]
... 1. we shouldn't lose money
12:21:43 [veronica]
... 2. should be a sizable number of people in program
12:21:51 [veronica]
... don't have a number in mind
12:22:05 [veronica]
... let's have input on Criteria for Program
12:22:23 [veronica]
... should relate to eventual Mission
12:22:24 [MarkCrawford]
There is a dichotomy between wanting to increase participation to traditionally unengaged folks and charging for the privilege
12:22:37 [veronica]
... what should be other criteria?
12:22:45 [jeff]
q?
12:22:49 [cgueret]
q+
12:22:52 [veronica]
... or +1 to what Chaals provided
12:23:06 [cgueret]
zakim, ack me
12:23:06 [Zakim]
unmuting cgueret
12:23:07 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
12:23:14 [veronica]
jeff: ok, let's accept Chaals
12:23:22 [bkardell_]
There are other ways to increase participation which don't involve membership
12:24:00 [veronica]
cristophe: getting more people to participate is good
12:24:05 [veronica]
... @@@ privilege
12:24:13 [bkardell_]
The benefit of membership is a voice in an and tag and more generally because that is how w3c is structured
12:24:26 [veronica]
... if webizens could help us @@@ in other groups @@
12:24:56 [jeff]
q?
12:24:57 [veronica]
jeff: i think one key point is to have some expecattion that most chose to be a webizen
12:25:12 [veronica]
cristophe: also get new people
12:25:17 [jeff]
s/one key point/Christophe said that one key point/
12:25:23 [cgueret]
http://manu.sporny.org/2014/json-ld-origins-2/
12:25:27 [jeff]
s/most/most IEs/
12:26:09 [cgueret]
zakim, mute me
12:26:09 [Zakim]
cgueret should now be muted
12:26:23 [Kimberly]
Kimberly has joined #webizen
12:26:30 [jeff]
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Webizen
12:27:02 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
12:27:26 [darobin]
darobin has joined #webizen
12:27:27 [jeff]
q?
12:27:41 [veronica]
jeff: let's move to Target Market
12:27:57 [veronica]
... there was a lot of confusion about the marketing study
12:28:13 [veronica]
... when we presented the previous version of the webizen proposal
12:28:36 [veronica]
... some of the feedback from AC was 'you invented something; don't know who would sign up'
12:28:43 [cgueret]
veronica: some key points, number of "invited expert -> webizen" as criteria but also number of webizen who would not have otherwise been invited expert or mmebers. As pointed out by Many Sporny in his blog, the work on JSON-LD benefited from such participation
12:28:49 [veronica]
... so you should know who might be joining
12:29:01 [veronica]
... decided not to go back to AC without marketing info
12:29:34 [veronica]
... in email thread, begging some of our organziations to perform marketing study
12:29:42 [veronica]
... but it was not successful
12:30:01 [veronica]
... Ian from Communications team suggested this task design a survey
12:30:14 [veronica]
... to send out to everyone what the new program is
12:30:23 [veronica]
... as ask what they think
12:30:45 [veronica]
... this isn't a formal study unfortunately
12:31:01 [Julian-Nominet]
q
12:31:04 [veronica]
... we can create the survey, create the questions
12:31:27 [veronica]
... do we as task force think this would be sufficient [no input received from emails]
12:31:41 [LJWatson]
q+
12:32:18 [veronica]
julian: I have a very good relationship with CEO of a merket research company
12:32:28 [veronica]
... I could ask her if that's of interest?
12:32:35 [veronica]
jeff: yes, let's ask
12:32:45 [veronica]
s/merket/market
12:33:02 [jeff]
action: Julian will determine whether colleagues from market research firms could help with the market research study.
12:33:04 [veronica]
julian: this plus Twitter could work
12:33:16 [jeff]
ack lj
12:33:45 [veronica]
leonie: market research is really good, any data from community at large is valuable
12:33:53 [bkardell_]
Is the problem how to get people to answer or what to ask?
12:34:01 [veronica]
jeff: so I hear +1
12:34:20 [jeff]
q?
12:34:21 [cgueret]
+1
12:34:22 [veronica]
leonie: anything we can get will help
12:34:28 [LJWatson]
ack me
12:34:40 [Julian-Nominet]
+1
12:34:41 [MarkCrawford]
+1
12:34:44 [LJWatson]
+1
12:34:45 [veronica]
jeff: please type +1 that it fulfills or -1
12:34:46 [Kimberly]
+1
12:34:48 [veronica]
+1
12:34:53 [cgueret]
+1
12:34:54 [Georg]
+1
12:34:58 [veronica]
jeff: so we have consensus
12:35:04 [veronica]
... now the fun part
12:35:17 [veronica]
... Brainstorming: the design of the program
12:35:42 [veronica]
... to recall, previous proposal we had a market basket of goodies
12:36:07 [veronica]
... cost was $100 to join to help defray some costs and also get some goodie, mug, shirt ...
12:36:27 [bkardell_]
As I said previously... We have enough swag
12:36:45 [veronica]
... But, Webizens collectively could somehow have some limited powers to participate
12:36:53 [bkardell_]
The benefit is membership and representation
12:37:03 [veronica]
... AC opinions: too many goodies cheapened the program
12:37:18 [bkardell_]
I agree with ACS on this
12:37:26 [cgueret]
+1 too
12:37:27 [veronica]
... since then, we shouldn't have the goodies, that people want to join
12:37:47 [veronica]
... on giving webizens power to review, partic
12:37:55 [veronica]
... AC wasn't crazy about tha
12:38:03 [veronica]
s/tha/that
12:38:20 [veronica]
... some felt Webizens needed more power
12:38:34 [veronica]
... so question for us for this new task force
12:39:09 [veronica]
... what should fee be? $100 right? variable? min/max, $0?
12:39:14 [LJWatson]
Think the fee will depend on the member benefits.
12:39:18 [veronica]
... what benefits should there be?
12:39:38 [cgueret]
q+ to speak about goals for people that will become webizens
12:39:39 [MarkCrawford]
At one time OASIS charged $100 individual membership. Do we have any insight into how many individual members they were able to garner?
12:39:56 [Julian-Nominet]
q+
12:40:01 [bkardell_]
Correct me: invited experts have no ac representation, right?
12:40:03 [cgueret]
zakim, ack me
12:40:03 [Zakim]
unmuting cgueret
12:40:04 [Zakim]
cgueret, you wanted to speak about goals for people that will become webizens
12:40:04 [Zakim]
I see Julian-Nominet on the speaker queue
12:40:11 [jeff]
brian, Correct.
12:40:35 [veronica]
cristophe: maybe we could have goals on why someone would want to join as Webizen
12:40:46 [Julian-Nominet]
+1 to CV
12:40:47 [cgueret]
example: https://www.aaai.org/Membership/membership.php
12:40:48 [bkardell_]
So, again, I think this is the primary goal of a Webizen program.
12:40:52 [veronica]
... maybe to get entry line on CV
12:41:05 [veronica]
... maybe get discount to conf
12:41:18 [bkardell_]
A way to collectively create "unions" with ac reps
12:41:43 [veronica]
... mostly gain benefits from activity
12:41:51 [MarkCrawford]
I would suggest that we consider the benefit to be participation in the webizen ecosystem, TPAC attendance privilege with a discount to offset their membership fee, and recognition on a special W3C web page.
12:42:16 [veronica]
jeff: rather than decide as TF; create market survey and ask people why combination of this would encourage you to join program
12:42:23 [cgueret]
zakim, mute me
12:42:23 [Zakim]
cgueret should now be muted
12:42:50 [veronica]
julian: cristophe, where I was going, i thinkcristophe has picked on 'why would I want to join?"
12:42:57 [Kimberly]
q+ What are the responsibilities (if any) of a Webizen?
12:43:39 [veronica]
... maybe someone who had useful input, they could be recognized for their contribution; could recognize on their CV
12:43:56 [bkardell_]
Responsibilities is a funny word.. What responsibilities do any members have in prestige
12:44:01 [bkardell_]
Practice
12:44:09 [veronica]
jeff: answering kimberly's ques
12:44:27 [veronica]
... what must you? no formal responsibility other than pay the fee
12:44:47 [veronica]
... as julian pointed out, once u have an organization and there's activity
12:44:48 [LJWatson]
q+
12:45:02 [veronica]
... you volunteer, that's how it grows
12:45:22 [veronica]
... may be consistent with Brian's comments
12:45:26 [jeff]
ack jul
12:45:27 [veronica]
ack ju
12:45:37 [jeff]
ack ljw
12:45:46 [veronica]
leonie: question then becomes who does webizen participate
12:45:55 [veronica]
... agree line on CV is key
12:46:09 [veronica]
... but what capacity does webizen have to participate
12:46:09 [bkardell_]
Fwiw, I am launching efforts on participation soon
12:46:28 [veronica]
jeff: general public has broad possibilty to participate
12:46:33 [bkardell_]
I think we can achieve that without Webizen
12:46:34 [LJWatson]
ack me
12:47:11 [veronica]
jeff: any other comments on design on program?
12:47:20 [veronica]
jeff summarizes
12:47:33 [veronica]
... in terms of goal, we had good discussion
12:47:47 [bkardell_]
But participation stops at feedback to a WG without some legit way to participate in w3c including vote
12:47:48 [veronica]
... sweet spot centered on C of Ramens' list
12:47:51 [LJWatson]
s/who does webizen participate/how does webizen participate/
12:48:05 [veronica]
... I will take action to summarize input from this call
12:48:31 [veronica]
... julian pointed out we need a Mission
12:48:47 [veronica]
... maybe on next call we'll discuss more
12:49:08 [veronica]
... 3 success criteria
12:49:34 [veronica]
... Marketing study; generic approach approved
12:49:59 [veronica]
... hopeful Julian's friend and colleague will have an add'l option
12:50:19 [veronica]
... so for next meeting we need to spend more time on Mission Statement
12:50:42 [veronica]
... I will also outline more on Marketing Study for TF to review
12:50:52 [veronica]
... next call not yet defined
12:51:00 [veronica]
... maybe week of Aug 18 for next call
12:51:21 [cgueret]
+1 for a doodle
12:51:25 [veronica]
... we'll do another Doodle poll
12:51:43 [veronica]
... done with agenda for today
12:51:58 [jeff]
q?
12:52:05 [MarkCrawford]
thanks Jeff
12:52:07 [Kimberly]
Thank you!
12:52:08 [Zakim]
-MarkC
12:52:10 [veronica]
jeff: Thanks everyone for participating today.
12:52:12 [Georg]
Thanks! Bye!
12:52:14 [Zakim]
-LJWatson
12:52:15 [cgueret]
thx, bye bye everyone! :)
12:52:15 [veronica]
Bye!
12:52:16 [Zakim]
- +44.778.839.aabb
12:52:17 [Zakim]
-Jeff
12:52:17 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
12:52:21 [Zakim]
-cgueret
12:52:23 [veronica]
rrs agent, make minutes
12:52:27 [Zakim]
- +49.302.389.5.aaaa
12:52:38 [veronica]
rrs agent make minutes
12:53:10 [veronica]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:53:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/01-webizen-minutes.html veronica
12:56:47 [Zakim]
-Veronica
12:56:48 [Zakim]
Team_JEFF(WEBIZEN)8:00AM has ended
12:56:48 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jeff, Veronica, +49.302.389.5.aaaa, LJWatson, cgueret, +44.778.839.aabb, MarkC, kimberly, [IPcaller]
12:57:17 [veronica]
rrsagent, set log team
12:57:32 [veronica]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:57:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/01-webizen-minutes.html veronica
12:59:05 [veronica]
jeff: can you open link for minutes? I don't have access privileges
13:02:02 [michiell]
michiell has joined #webizen
13:02:18 [michiell]
Hi, trying to dial in but need password
13:03:41 [veronica]
Meeting: Webizens project discussion
13:04:00 [veronica]
sorry michiell, the call has ended already
13:04:29 [veronica]
Chair: Jeff
13:04:38 [veronica]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:04:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/01-webizen-minutes.html veronica
13:05:56 [michiell]
veronica: sorry to hear that, I thought 8 AM ES = now.
13:20:37 [koalie]
regrets: JCVerdiƩ, AnnBassetti, DanielGlazman, CoralieMercier, MichielLeenaars, ArminHaller
13:21:49 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
13:21:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/01-webizen-minutes.html koalie
13:26:44 [deiu]
deiu has joined #webizen
13:27:21 [koalie]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webizen/2014Jul/0000.html
13:27:22 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
13:27:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/01-webizen-minutes.html koalie
13:28:42 [koalie]
s/Ramen/Raman.
13:30:20 [koalie]
s/really this/really like this/
13:31:40 [koalie]
s/soem/some/
13:32:24 [koalie]
s/thinkwhat/think what/
13:32:47 [koalie]
s/professionalis,/professionalism/
13:33:04 [koalie]
s/ehancing/enhancing/
13:33:23 [koalie]
s/then what u/than what you/
13:33:30 [Karen]
Karen has joined #webizen
13:35:30 [koalie]
s/Leoni:/Leonie:/
13:35:43 [veronica]
thanks koalie for cleaning up my minutes!! I missed u on the call!
13:35:54 [koalie]
yeah, sorry I missed it :(
13:35:59 [koalie]
and thanks for scribing, veronica!
13:44:00 [koalie]
i/veronica: some/scribenick: cgueret/
13:44:18 [koalie]
i/jeff: so you should/scribenick: veronica/
13:44:37 [koalie]
s/mmebers/members/
13:44:48 [koalie]
s/by Many/by Manu/
13:45:47 [koalie]
s/task design/task force design/
13:47:57 [koalie]
s/partic/participate/
13:49:58 [koalie]
s/cristophe/Christophe/
13:50:18 [koalie]
s/i thinkcristophe/I think Christophe/
13:50:50 [koalie]
s/ ques/ question/
13:51:09 [koalie]
s/once u/once you/
13:55:18 [koalie]
s/... in terms of goal/Jeff: in terms of goal/
13:55:41 [koalie]
s/... sweet spot/Jeff: sweet spot/
13:56:04 [koalie]
s/Ramens'/Raman's/
13:56:52 [koalie]
s/... we'll do another/Jeff: we'll do another/
13:57:26 [koalie]
s/rrs agent, make minutes//
13:57:35 [koalie]
s/rrs agent make minutes//
13:57:48 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
13:57:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/01-webizen-minutes.html koalie
13:58:10 [koalie]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:10:01 [koalie]
i/... so you should/scribenick: veronica/
14:10:03 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
14:10:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/01-webizen-minutes.html koalie
14:15:20 [koalie]
s/Ramen],/Raman],/
14:15:54 [koalie]
s/.s'/'s/
14:15:56 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
14:15:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/08/01-webizen-minutes.html koalie
14:29:00 [veronica]
veronica has left #webizen
14:30:12 [koalie]
RRSAgent, bye
14:30:12 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/08/01-webizen-actions.rdf :
14:30:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Julian will determine whether colleagues from market research firms could help with the market research study. [1]
14:30:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/08/01-webizen-irc#T12-33-02