IRC log of svg on 2014-07-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/07/24-svg-irc
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RRSAgent, make logs public
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Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
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ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG()9:00AM already started
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Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
13:00:40 [trackbot]
Date: 24 July 2014
13:01:20 [birtles]
Zakim who is on the call?
13:01:29 [glenn]
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13:01:30 [birtles]
Zakim, who is on the call?
13:01:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P6, krit, [IPcaller]
13:01:40 [birtles]
Zakim, [ is me
13:01:40 [Zakim]
+birtles; got it
13:01:57 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
13:02:05 [Smailus]
zakim, ??P6 is me
13:02:05 [Zakim]
+Smailus; got it
13:02:28 [Zakim]
+??P13
13:03:21 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller.a]
13:03:22 [heycam]
Zakim, [ is me
13:03:22 [Zakim]
sorry, heycam, I do not recognize a party named '['
13:03:31 [heycam]
Zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
13:03:31 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
13:03:43 [stakagi]
zakim, ??P13 is me
13:03:44 [Zakim]
+stakagi; got it
13:03:51 [heycam]
Zakim, who is on the call?
13:03:52 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Smailus, krit, birtles, [IPcaller], stakagi, heycam
13:04:12 [heycam]
Chair: Cameron
13:04:20 [heycam]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2014JulSep/0018.html
13:05:20 [Zakim]
+Doug_Schepers
13:06:47 [birtles]
scribe: birtles
13:06:49 [birtles]
scribenick: birtles
13:07:07 [Zakim]
+Tav
13:07:17 [birtles]
topic: x and y properties on SVGTextPositionElement
13:07:31 [birtles]
s/SVGTextPoitionElement/SVGTestPositioningElement/
13:07:42 [birtles]
krit: the issue we had in the past was that x/y on most elements just have one value
13:07:50 [birtles]
... but for <text> and <tspan> it is a list of length values
13:08:11 [birtles]
... question is: should we really try to make x attribute of elements be stylable as well
13:08:20 [birtles]
... or just attributes
13:09:18 [ChrisL]
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13:09:20 [krit]
<text x=“0 10 20 30”> vs <rect x=“20" />
13:09:28 [birtles]
krit: should we allow them to take a list of values?
13:09:58 [birtles]
... we could still allow x/y to be properties
13:10:03 [birtles]
... but not allow them to take a list of values
13:10:32 [birtles]
... if x is a property, then because <text> etc. already takes a list of lengths, the property would also have to take a list
13:10:36 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
13:10:42 [birtles]
... and we'd have to define what to do if a list was set on other elements
13:11:00 [birtles]
... my proposal is to make x/y properties just accept one value
13:11:13 [birtles]
... and to have x/y on <text> *not* be presentation attributes, just attributes
13:11:34 [ChrisL]
zero specificity
13:11:44 [birtles]
heycam: if you have x/y applied to text as a property and you also set x/y on the <text> what happens?
13:12:02 [birtles]
... if the attribute is *not* a presentation attribute how do you define the processing there
13:12:28 [birtles]
krit: one possibility is that we create an auto value for this purpose
13:12:37 [birtles]
... if the computed value is still auto then you use the value of the x/y attributes
13:12:52 [birtles]
ChrisL: that would work but it's adding yet another way of how properties/attributes combine
13:12:57 [birtles]
... let's step back for a minute
13:13:09 [birtles]
... we have a bunch of attributes that are per-element
13:13:20 [birtles]
... and that was fine since we could animate attributes or properties
13:13:39 [birtles]
... but now we're doing this in order to make these things animatable with CSS animations that only work with properties
13:13:44 [Zakim]
+??P21
13:13:51 [birtles]
... but is this still necessary now we have a model that covers both?
13:14:02 [nikos__]
Zakim, ??P21 is me
13:14:02 [Zakim]
+nikos__; got it
13:14:06 [birtles]
... this seems to introduce a lot of clashes/complexity
13:14:31 [birtles]
krit: if you look at twitter, a lot of things are animated with CSS that could be animated with SVG animation
13:14:54 [birtles]
... so people would need to learn SVG animation in order to animate properties
13:15:21 [birtles]
shepazu: the other argument (aside from animation) is that more people are familiar with CSS than SVG
13:15:31 [birtles]
... and they feel more comfortable using CSS than SVG
13:15:46 [birtles]
ChrisL: understood, but the set of things they are using were designed from the start to be attributes
13:15:52 [birtles]
... not properties
13:16:14 [birtles]
... properties are designed to be general and now we're taking attributes that are designed to be more specific and making them properties
13:16:35 [birtles]
krit: most attributes we can turn to properties, but x/y are different because they are used differently on <text> elements
13:16:55 [birtles]
ChrisL: another way to do that--if we're going to break things, we can choose what we break
13:17:10 [birtles]
... we could break the name mapping, e.g. call the text x/y, tx/ty
13:17:21 [birtles]
krit: I don't think we need to break anything
13:17:29 [birtles]
... (by turning attributes into properties)
13:17:37 [birtles]
... based on experience in Blink/WebKit
13:17:47 [birtles]
Tav: is that the case already in Blink/WebKit
13:18:04 [birtles]
krit: there are some exceptions in Blink, but mostly
13:18:40 [birtles]
shepazu: some authoring tools use multiple values in x/y, but I've never seen code besides that using that functionality
13:18:46 [birtles]
krit: for <text> it's quite common
13:18:53 [birtles]
... so we can't break it
13:19:00 [birtles]
shepazu: is it that common?
13:19:14 [birtles]
krit: not for manual editing, but for authoring tools it's common
13:19:47 [birtles]
shepazu: I think most SVG is actually generated by d3
13:20:12 [birtles]
... and d3 doesn't use x/y in that way
13:20:27 [ChrisL]
q+
13:20:28 [birtles]
Tav: we use x/y like that in Inkscape
13:20:42 [birtles]
shepazu: I don't think this proposal breaks this though right?
13:20:50 [birtles]
krit: no, it doesn't
13:21:03 [birtles]
shepazu: we already have a distinction between attributes and properties, e.g. regarding units
13:21:18 [birtles]
krit: actually in CSS3 syntax, presentation attributes are allowed to omit units
13:21:20 [heycam]
ack ChrisL
13:21:44 [birtles]
ChrisL: a presentation attribute is one syntactic form of a property
13:22:17 [birtles]
... I see this mixed up a lot
13:22:35 [birtles]
... code which used to spit out PDF tends to use x/y on every character in the string
13:22:46 [birtles]
... since internally that's how they do tracking/kerning/etc.
13:22:53 [birtles]
... each character has its own positioning data
13:23:07 [birtles]
... it's very fragile unless you have a downloadable font
13:23:23 [birtles]
... it's also a bit of a hack now that fonts have better kerning thanks to OpenType features
13:23:26 [ChrisL]
not in hand authored content though
13:23:34 [birtles]
... I agree with Dirk that you see this usage of x/y alot
13:23:58 [birtles]
shepazu: I agree, but I don't think that what Dirk is proposing breaks that
13:24:05 [birtles]
krit: it doesn't
13:24:19 [birtles]
... x/y for <tspan> definitely has a different syntax that for every other element
13:24:25 [birtles]
... <text> is special, how do we deal with it?
13:24:26 [Zakim]
+??P22
13:24:38 [birtles]
... one possibility is we make x/y a list for every element
13:24:52 [birtles]
... one is that we say x/y for <text> is not a presentation attribute
13:25:04 [birtles]
... one way is to introduce "auto" as I suggested before
13:25:18 [birtles]
... but as ChrisL mentions, it does complicate the interaction of these things
13:25:24 [birtles]
heycam: none stand out to me as a clear winner
13:25:31 [birtles]
Tav: the third seems best
13:25:38 [ChrisL]
web animation makes this less necessary, yes
13:25:46 [birtles]
... although I tend to agree with ChrisL that this is not really necessary for animation
13:26:01 [birtles]
... I don't think we need to handle lists
13:26:50 [birtles]
heycam: all seem to have downsides
13:27:01 [birtles]
krit: I can put forward all three options on the mailing list
13:27:07 [birtles]
... and we can try to get a resolution next week
13:27:39 [birtles]
heycam: I get the feeling from ChrisL and Tav's comments that they are less enthusiastic about the whole attribute-to-presentation enterprise
13:27:47 [birtles]
Tav: it's not a strong feeling, I won't object to it
13:28:13 [birtles]
ChrisL: I won't object either, but I think we're doing this for the wrong reasons, it just moves the pain around
13:29:01 [birtles]
heycam: I tend to agree but I did see web developers doing responsive SVG and coming up against obstacles because SVG's geometry attributes couldn't be used
13:29:07 [Zakim]
-nikos__
13:29:27 [birtles]
krit: from a code point of view it actually makes the code simpler
13:29:44 [birtles]
Tav: I thought you were initially against making attributes into presentation attributes
13:29:49 [birtles]
krit: I'm not sure I was
13:30:15 [birtles]
heycam: in Gecko, every element pays storage price for additional properties even if they don't apply to that element
13:30:23 [birtles]
... we do group properties together
13:30:34 [birtles]
... so if you don't set any of those properties it's only one pointer
13:30:46 [birtles]
... but it does mean that some memory is used up for every element
13:30:57 [birtles]
krit: I think the cost is still not that big
13:31:16 [birtles]
heycam: maybe, but if the document is large enough, it might not have that much effect
13:31:32 [birtles]
... but then the CSSWG doesn't seem to be concerned about adding new properties so maybe it's not such a big deal
13:31:51 [birtles]
... I think width/height are easy to convert because those properties already exist
13:31:58 [birtles]
krit: from a memory/implementation point-of-view?
13:32:07 [birtles]
heycam: more from an aesthetics/spec point of view
13:32:16 [birtles]
... those things already exist so it's an easy decision to make
13:32:27 [birtles]
... for the rest, they're new properties, there are name mismatches etc.
13:32:49 [birtles]
krit: the other properties I was thinking about are r/cx/cy etc.
13:33:08 [birtles]
... these don't have conflicts except dx/dy with regards to <rect>/<text>
13:33:25 [birtles]
heycam: there are two classes of issues
13:33:37 [birtles]
... are there real conflicts across elements
13:33:47 [birtles]
... and are there conflicts with existing properties that mean we can use the same name
13:34:05 [birtles]
... with this limited set of properties we don't run into the second class of issues
13:34:45 [birtles]
... so it's of lesser concern, although the naming is still unusual
13:35:02 [birtles]
... having thought of the options you presented before, I think I agree with Tav
13:35:24 [birtles]
... that is, use the new property value
13:35:33 [birtles]
... to decide between using the computed style or the attribute value
13:35:46 [birtles]
krit: that sounds good to me
13:35:54 [birtles]
heycam: does anyone else want to take this to the list?
13:36:02 [birtles]
ChrisL: I'd like to see this summarised so I can be sure
13:36:13 [birtles]
heycam: krit can you please summarise and send to the list?
13:36:14 [birtles]
krit: sure
13:36:33 [birtles]
topic: Where to add the new x,y,cx,cy,rx,ry,r CSS properties?
13:36:48 [birtles]
krit: we have different sections in the SVG spec, where do I add them?
13:37:02 [birtles]
heycam: at the moment we have an obvious section for defining the attributes that apply to individual elements
13:37:07 [birtles]
krit: and we still need that?
13:37:16 [birtles]
heycam: yes, I think that makes sense since that's where people will look
13:37:34 [birtles]
krit: width/height we still need to define as presentation attributes on the element
13:37:47 [birtles]
ChrisL: I think you need a new section where you define all these properties
13:37:55 [birtles]
... and then you need the existing sections
13:38:03 [birtles]
... and you need to link from them to the new section
13:38:43 [birtles]
krit: if we do this, won't that change the numbering?
13:38:52 [birtles]
ChrisL: are people quoting sections by numbers?
13:39:02 [birtles]
heycam: I don't think you should worry about changing the numbering
13:39:20 [birtles]
krit: so you're fine with adding a new section?
13:39:25 [birtles]
heycam: what would be in that new section?
13:39:28 [birtles]
krit: layout properties
13:39:46 [birtles]
heycam: perhaps a section in the styling chapter that summarises all of the geometry properties
13:39:56 [birtles]
... i.e. refers to width/height in CSS then defines the other ones
13:40:12 [birtles]
... then in the other sections referring to that
13:40:21 [birtles]
krit: I would agree with that
13:40:30 [birtles]
heycam: you might have to think about how to present that
13:40:39 [birtles]
... since we only put attributes in the little grey box at the moment
13:40:45 [birtles]
... I'm sure you can come up with something
13:40:47 [birtles]
krit: suyre
13:40:53 [birtles]
s/suyre/sure
13:40:58 [birtles]
s/suyre/sure/
13:41:26 [birtles]
heycam: did you say you have patches for doing this already?
13:41:27 [birtles]
krit: yes
13:42:28 [birtles]
topic: London F2F
13:42:37 [birtles]
Tav: will there be a join meeting with CSSWG at TPAC?
13:42:42 [birtles]
heycam: I think so
13:43:10 [heycam]
https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/London_2014/Agenda_proposals
13:43:21 [shepazu]
agenda+ dev night in London
13:44:20 [birtles]
ChrisL: I believe we will be able to have a join meeting with CSSWG in Sydney at the start of 2015
13:44:55 [birtles]
krit: I don't think TPAC is a good time for a joint meeting
13:45:26 [birtles]
heycam: normally we encroach on their time, but I think we should try to have a joint meeting at TPAC and Sydney
13:46:07 [birtles]
... as ChrisL mentioned, please think about agenda items for the London F2F
13:46:14 [birtles]
topic: Dev night in London
13:46:23 [birtles]
shepazu: this came about from a web platform docs meeting
13:46:43 [birtles]
... apparently there are a lot of design agencies in London that Adobe has connections with and many of them don't know much about SVG
13:46:54 [birtles]
... but they're good at making assets etc.
13:47:10 [birtles]
... so if people are going to be in London for SVG, we should try and connect
13:47:33 [birtles]
... it occurred to me that there will be a lot of people in London who are designers and might be interested in SVG but don't know about the Graphical Web
13:47:36 [ChrisL]
+1
13:47:53 [birtles]
... if we wanted to have a dev night, perhaps hosted by Mozilla, similar to how we've done before
13:48:20 [birtles]
... we could have a few presentations
13:48:31 [birtles]
... ChrisL could do one on fonts etc.
13:48:35 [ChrisL]
svg+
13:48:35 [birtles]
... it doesn't have to be just SVG
13:48:53 [birtles]
... London has quite a lot of font activity
13:49:06 [birtles]
ChrisL: yes, I would be interested
13:49:21 [birtles]
shepazu: anyone else interested in doing a talk?
13:49:36 [birtles]
... perhaps 3 presentations, ~20min each = 1hr, then an open session
13:49:36 [ChrisL]
wish some other browsers besides firefoxc would implement the CSS3 Font opentype stuff that my talk is about
13:49:53 [birtles]
shepazu: would be good to have someone from W3C
13:50:00 [birtles]
ChrisL: or even getting a local designer coming along
13:50:06 [birtles]
... so it's not just us talking
13:50:11 [birtles]
... we should be open to that
13:50:26 [birtles]
shepazu: if we scoped it to people to doing stuff with SVG
13:50:32 [birtles]
... that might be good
13:50:44 [ChrisL]
+1 to svg lightning talks
13:50:52 [birtles]
... we could have an open mic/lightning talk session around what people are doing with SVG
13:51:03 [birtles]
... I'd like you to think about it
13:51:08 [ChrisL]
we need to announce asap or it will be too late
13:51:16 [birtles]
... would be good to hear from implementors
13:52:16 [birtles]
... I'd like to get names to put on the bill other than just W3C folks
13:53:03 [ChrisL]
I have tow existing svg-and-font talks, one on css3 fonts and one on SVG Glyphs in OpenType
13:53:21 [nikos__]
might be premature, but wouldn't mind talking about diffusion curves and getting input from artists
13:53:30 [ChrisL]
its not like its the capital or anything
13:54:19 [birtles]
shepazu: if anyone is interested in doing a presentation, let me know
13:54:37 [birtles]
krit: might be interested
13:54:44 [nikos__]
but yeh I'd be happy to talk a little about diffusion curves. I'm keen to hear from people how they might use them
13:55:27 [birtles]
krit: to talk about SVG and photoshop
13:55:43 [ChrisL]
who is hosting? is it at mox london?
13:55:49 [ChrisL]
s/mox/moz
13:55:52 [birtles]
heycam: did you have a date in mind?
13:56:35 [nikos__]
Tuesday night we'll need to head to Winchester
13:56:47 [ChrisL]
friday
13:58:07 [ChrisL]
monday is a holiday
13:58:31 [birtles]
shepazu: probably Friday is best
13:58:47 [birtles]
... heycam can you check if Mozilla can host?
13:58:50 [birtles]
heycam: sure
13:59:59 [krit]
Simon
14:00:05 [ChrisL]
simon sapin
14:01:35 [Zakim]
-Smailus
14:01:38 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
14:01:40 [Zakim]
-Doug_Schepers
14:01:40 [Zakim]
-birtles
14:01:41 [Zakim]
-??P22
14:01:41 [Zakim]
-Tav
14:01:42 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
14:01:42 [Zakim]
-krit
14:01:44 [Zakim]
-heycam
14:01:44 [Zakim]
-stakagi
14:01:44 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()9:00AM has ended
14:01:44 [Zakim]
Attendees were krit, [IPcaller], birtles, Smailus, heycam, stakagi, Doug_Schepers, Tav, ChrisL, nikos__
14:01:57 [birtles]
RRSAgent: make minutes public
14:01:57 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', birtles. Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:02:00 [birtles]
RRSAgent: make minutes
14:02:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/07/24-svg-minutes.html birtles
14:02:26 [ChrisL]
rssagent, make logs public
14:02:32 [ChrisL]
rssagent, make minutes
14:02:33 [birtles]
thanks ChrisL!
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19:25:50 [krit]
TabAtkins: shepazu: Didn’t we agree that we make viewBox an presentation attribute? If yes, what is the name? Also, wasn’t there an auto value?
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19:32:07 [TabAtkins]
I'd have to look it up, but I think we were going to use "viewbox".
19:32:31 [TabAtkins]
And yeah, we wanted to add an auto value, but I forget exactly what it was going to do.
19:35:09 [krit]
TabAtkins: maybe to cover the bounds of all content elements?
19:35:31 [TabAtkins]
I mean, there was something like that, but I think that was supposed to be for inline <svg> sizing.
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23:01:44 [shepazu]
krit, I think we should just do viewbox, with the same syntax as the attribute
23:02:06 [shepazu]
the "auto" thing could be a separate property
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23:37:14 [birtles]
krit: TabAtkins: I abandoned that effort to make viewBox a presentation attribute because it introduced circular dependencies with media queries and wasn't necessary for the use case I wanted it for
23:37:56 [TabAtkins]
Ah, interesting.