17:00:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:00:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/30-aria-irc
17:00:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
17:00:58 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
17:01:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
17:01:00 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM already started
17:01:01 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
17:01:01 <trackbot> Date: 30 June 2014
17:01:04 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
17:01:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
17:01:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
17:01:19 <Zakim> +??P3
17:01:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
17:01:25 <janina> zakim, ??P3 is me
17:01:25 <Zakim> +janina; got it
17:01:40 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:01:49 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jun/0139.html
17:02:08 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson
17:03:19 <Zakim> + +1.603.882.aabb
17:03:28 <Zakim> +??P10
17:03:41 <joanie> Zakim, aabb is me
17:03:41 <Zakim> +joanie; got it
17:03:50 <Birkir> Birkir has joined #aria
17:05:02 <Birkir> Birkir Gunnarsson the the secret 919 code
17:05:11 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Birkir_Gunnarsson
17:05:11 <Zakim> +Birkir_Gunnarsson; got it
17:05:13 <Birkir> Raleigh, North Carolina!
17:05:21 <MichaelC> zakim, Microsoft is Chris_Gallello
17:05:21 <Zakim> +Chris_Gallello; got it
17:05:40 <joanie> Zakim, joanie is Joanmarie_Diggs
17:05:40 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs; got it
17:06:08 <Birkir> like the Life Aquatic discussions, great movie too ;)
17:07:07 <Birkir> Next time, I prommise, not quite set up this time.
17:07:25 <Birkir> I promise not to scribe in Icelandic .. and next time will be next Monday, promise
17:08:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: jongund
17:08:29 <jongund> RS: Intro to the specs
17:09:04 <jongund> JS: We will publish heart beats in we want to be updating intro, we need the newer thinking
17:09:21 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
17:09:34 <jongund> JS: Please look at the intro, looking for volunteers to look at the intros
17:09:44 <jongund> RS: I have to do it for SVG
17:10:03 <jongund> RS: Things have chnaged form when we started ARIA
17:10:37 <jongund> RS: I am willing to take a stab for ARIA spec and Core and I will be doing it for SVG
17:10:52 <jongund> RS: I will not being doing it for HTML5
17:11:26 <jongund> MC: We will have several fingers in that pot, but if rich can do a first pass that will be a big help
17:11:40 <jongund> RS: Are there specific points you want in the intros
17:12:00 <Zakim> + +1.415.624.aacc
17:12:26 <MichaelC> action: schwerdtferger to draft introductions for ARIA 1.1, Core-AAM 1.1, and SVG-AAM 1.1
17:12:27 <trackbot> Error finding 'schwerdtferger'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
17:12:30 <jongund> MC: I have a few things, write from the perspective of someone who is not familiar with the technology or the problem, help people understand the problem and solution
17:12:31 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
17:12:43 <jongund> RS: We are looking at application wide changes
17:12:50 <trackbot> #aria is associated with #pf.
17:12:52 <trackbot> #aria is associated with #pf.
17:13:04 <MichaelC> action: RS to draft introductions for ARIA 1.1, Core-AAM 1.1, and SVG-AAM 1.1
17:13:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1470 - Draft introductions for aria 1.1, core-aam 1.1, and svg-aam 1.1 [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2014-07-07].
17:13:09 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
17:13:09 <Zakim> sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
17:13:17 <jongund> RS: We are trying to harmonize the integration of accessibility around graphics and HTML5
17:13:31 <jongund> RS: ARIA 2.0 is way off in the future
17:13:31 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
17:13:31 <Zakim> sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not see a party named 'Bryan_Garaventa'
17:13:41 <MichaelC> zakim, aacc is Bryan_Garanventa
17:13:41 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garanventa; got it
17:13:47 <jongund> RS: Addressing things that we were not able to address in 1.0
17:13:50 <MichaelC> zakim, Bryan is Bryan_Garaventa
17:13:50 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa; got it
17:13:58 <jongund> RS: We are trying to fix all these particular issue
17:14:05 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
17:15:01 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
17:15:05 <jongund> JS: We need a requirements document, issues that we are working on, when we are done we point to a problem statement ...
17:15:15 <jongund> JS: looking for some to help with that
17:15:21 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
17:15:39 <jongund> JS: Did I miss anything
17:15:51 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
17:16:02 <jongund> MC: Two important roles we want to consider, how does the spec meet its requirement
17:16:35 <jongund> MC: JG: I would be willing to help with that
17:17:03 <MichaelC> action: jon to start list of requirements for ARIA 1.1
17:17:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1471 - Start list of requirements for aria 1.1 [on Jon Gunderson - due 2014-07-07].
17:17:46 <jongund> MC: A single requirements document or separate documents for each spec, need to make a conscious decision
17:18:00 <jongund> JS: JRG think about that and give a recommendation
17:18:25 <jongund> JS: When do we want to publish a new heart beat, we need to get ahead of TPAC, early october
17:18:47 <jongund> RS: About 3 months, about every quarter
17:18:53 <jongund> RS: any objections?
17:19:19 <jongund> MC: We need to keep that in our minds...
17:19:40 <jongund> JS: We need to test early, when we want to do that
17:20:20 <jongund> RS: To that point, I would like to get some feedback, for role="none" I have been filing bugs
17:20:52 <jongund> CS: I would prefer something other than a wiki
17:21:09 <jongund> JS: Concerned about about maintanence
17:21:17 <jongund> CS: Bugzilla
17:21:28 <jongund> RS: Bugzilla for all the other bugzilla
17:21:33 <Birkir> assign someone to file issues against browsers/assistive technologies (or to oversee such a process)?
17:21:50 <jongund> CS: A bug for each browser and linked ...
17:21:57 <jongund> RS: Do you want to do it?
17:22:11 <jongund> CS: When do we want to start testing?
17:22:21 <jongund> RS: We want to get the defects in the browser
17:22:37 <jongund> CS: Let me talk to IE team on what would help them
17:23:05 <jongund> RS: You can talk to mozilla on the list, JC is out for 3 weeks
17:23:22 <jongund> CS: I can talk to IE team and ping david
17:23:37 <Zakim> + +1.541.678.aadd
17:24:23 <jongund> RS: I can't do anymore right now
17:25:09 <mattking> mattking has joined #aria
17:25:16 <jongund> JG: I have some people who can help with testing
17:25:51 <jongund> MC: It sounds like we have some people to create test cases
17:26:11 <MichaelC> zakim, aadd is Matt_King
17:26:11 <Zakim> +Matt_King; got it
17:26:17 <jongund> RS: FOr role=presentation, we can do role="none"
17:26:25 <jongund> JS: That is an east
17:26:45 <jongund> MC: test harness copy some stuff over...
17:28:37 <jongund> JG: Question about nested tables and role=presentation
17:28:55 <jongund> RS: Can JRG create test cases
17:29:05 <Birkir> If they are accessible, I would be happy to help out with test case writing.
17:29:08 <jongund> JG: We can try it
17:29:14 <Birkir> I am new to this process.
17:29:28 <MichaelC> action: cooper to work with Jon Gunderson and his team on creating test cases for for ARIA 1.1
17:29:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1472 - Work with jon gunderson and his team on creating test cases for for aria 1.1 [on Michael Cooper - due 2014-07-07].
17:30:06 <MichaelC> action: cynthia to prepare recommendation on automation of tracking of bugs filed with various implementers
17:30:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1473 - Prepare recommendation on automation of tracking of bugs filed with various implementers [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2014-07-07].
17:30:37 <jongund> RS: Anything else JS?
17:30:45 <jongund> RS: Issue 658
17:30:51 <jongund> RS: This is clean up
17:31:05 <jongund> RS: Annotation role....., MS proposal for annotation
17:31:33 <jongund> RS: We have already done this, can we close, any objections?
17:31:47 <jongund> RS: Resolution to close 568
17:32:27 <jongund> RS: Is Joespeh S on today?
17:32:33 <MichaelC> ack me
17:32:46 <jongund> RS: Lets hold off until the next weekend
17:32:55 <jongund> RS: Issue 493
17:32:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/493
17:33:21 <MichaelC> ack me
17:33:54 <jongund> RS: Why is closed
17:34:23 <jongund> MC: I am not sure this working, JC closes the issue when an action is created to resolve the issue
17:34:33 <jongund> RS: Issue 522
17:34:45 <jongund> RS: This is from JN
17:34:59 <jamesn> issue-522?
17:34:59 <trackbot> issue-522 -- Name Computation 2A - bullet 3 confusion -- open
17:34:59 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/522
17:35:17 <jongund> RS: Is aria-labelledby and aria-label .... not marked as presentational....
17:36:54 <jongund> JN; This is how other people are reading it, people are not getting the child elements for role="presentation"
17:36:58 <MichaelC> zakim, mute birkir
17:36:58 <Zakim> Birkir_Gunnarsson should now be muted
17:38:08 <jongund> JN: If something is marked presentational it should be used in accessible name calc
17:38:37 <jongund> CS: Firefox gets the name from going through the accessible tree, not the DOM
17:39:14 <jongund> JN: The name calculation says what should be done, and the presentation should not block the name calculation
17:39:26 <jongund> CS: it seems the description is unclear
17:40:11 <jongund> MK: They decided to put all the content of a table into one element, so a screen reader is treating the table as a paragraph
17:40:31 <jongund> MK: this is a miss understanding on how to implement role presentation
17:41:02 <jongund> CS: Should this be part of the implementation guide, maybe a flow chart or several examples
17:41:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#textalternativecomputation
17:42:00 <jongund> JN: There is not the same understanding even with people whoa re members of this group
17:42:30 <jongund> RS: Let's say we have a label on something, and the button is marked presentational, the name has to be applied to what..
17:42:54 <bgaraventa1979> +q
17:43:15 <jongund> JN: creating a an example .....
17:43:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:43:19 <jamesn> <div id="a">some text<button role=presentation> more text </button></div><input aria-labelledby="a">
17:44:36 <jongund> MK: that is one thing that is not clear, we need to give something a role ...
17:44:45 <jongund> CS: DIV has a role of group
17:44:53 <jongund> MK: It does not
17:45:05 <jongund> CS: It does on every browser
17:45:15 <jongund> CS: Every windows browser
17:45:21 <jongund> RS: I am sure that is not the case
17:45:33 <jongund> MK: I thin your right rich
17:46:27 <jongund> MK: If is suppose to be something other than what it was, .... the content still has to be there, and the that content should have a role, even though it is different
17:46:39 <jongund> RS: The text content is there, but there is no role
17:47:00 <jongund> RS: In SVG there is a lot of things that will have role="none"
17:47:26 <jamesn> in FF it seems to be role of section
17:47:41 <jongund> RS: There are different roles for DIV in various browsers and OSs
17:47:54 <jongund> RS: the text has a node
17:48:11 <jongund> RS: Text in the browser has role of readonly text
17:48:23 <jongund> MK: We do not say that specfically
17:48:37 <jongund> RS: We don't have a role a mapping for text
17:48:49 <jongund> MK: We don't have a role mapping for role=presentation
17:49:07 <jongund> RS: Paragraph has roles of ....
17:49:15 <jongund> CS: What are the roles for span
17:49:24 <jongund> MK: It is interesting though  ....
17:49:35 <jamesn> span is closest as spans can have child elements.....
17:49:45 <jongund> RS: span has a number of different roles depending on OS and browser
17:50:09 <jamesn> ugh...
17:50:34 <jongund> MK: we have a defect in FF they put all the text of a layout table as a single line
17:51:30 <jongund> MK: For a able to be readable needs to have some type of separator for text in the different cells
17:51:45 <jongund> MK: giving an example .....
17:52:00 <jongund> CS: that is a data table it should not be a layout table
17:52:15 <jongund> CS: You could make that a data table, another example.....
17:53:04 <jongund> MK: In practice it does't work very well, we need a more paragraph model
17:53:30 <jongund> CS: You have images, text ...., really should be absolutelely positioned...
17:53:48 <Birkir> If they are accessible, I would be happy to help out with test case writing.Divs would do the trick with a presentational table, they are blocklevel elements, spans make tables with role="presentation" near unreadable, that is true
17:53:52 <jongund> MK: If they are spaced differently, the screen reader needs to know about the spacing too
17:54:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:54:44 <jongund> MK: That's why the role of whats left matters
17:54:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack bgaraventa
17:55:16 <jongund> RS: Button doesn't have any semantic children
17:55:32 <jongund> RS: The button objects goes away and you just have text
17:56:03 <jongund> RS: On the table all the children go away....
17:56:15 <jongund> RS: That makes sense too
17:56:32 <jongund> MK: We did have a separate issue of buttons have popup menus
17:56:56 <jongund> RS: Look at this as semantic sugar, when you take it away you just have content
17:57:40 <jongund> JN: I reported it, brian was interpreting different from me
17:58:06 <jongund> JN: Reading a e-mail response....
17:58:30 <jongund> Brian: I know which one your talking about now..
17:59:07 <jongund> JN: I requesting a clarification so people reading it for the first time have a better understanding it
17:59:27 <jongund> JN: There is confusion even among current working group memebers
17:59:43 <jongund> RS: Which aspect of the text could help with clarification
17:59:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> If aria-labelledby and aria-label are both empty or undefined, and if the element is not marked as presentational (role="presentation"), check for the presence of an equivalent host language attribute or element for associating a label, and use those mechanisms to determine a text alternative. For example, in HTML, the img element's alt attribute defines a label string and the label element references the form element it labels. See How to Specify
17:59:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> Alternate Text ([HTML], section 13.8) and HTML 5 Requirements for providing text to act as an alternative for images ([HTML5], section 4.8.1.1).
18:00:00 <jongund> JN: We understand it now, so it is hard for us to identify the problem
18:00:30 <jongund> JN: Maybe we say that the child text content does not go away and is still part of the accessibility API
18:01:25 <jongund> MK: Can we simplify role=presentation now has a role=text or something else (e.g. equivalent), would that help
18:01:55 <jongund> RS: We spent a lot of time writing this, reading through spec text....
18:03:36 <jongund> RS: Do people understand the text?
18:03:56 <jongund> Brian: Developers don't understand the difference between the accessibility tree and the DOM
18:04:20 <jongund> RS: The mis match between the DOM and accessibility tree
18:04:56 <jongund> MK: There is more than that, must "expose" content, we don't say how that should be done
18:06:02 <jongund> CS: The bulleted list is not the best to way to explain algorithm, pauedo code or input/output
18:06:13 <jongund> CS: maybe some examples from good test cases
18:07:02 <jongund> CS: There is too much open to interpretation
18:07:33 <jongund> RS: So we can't put an exhaustive list in the spec, do we need to show an example
18:08:02 <jongund> RS: One where you have a single table and show the new tree
18:08:19 <jongund> RS: Nested data table in a layout table
18:08:29 <jongund> RS: button with role presentation
18:08:57 <jongund> RS: Do these sound like the three scenarios we need
18:09:13 <jongund> JN: I am not going to comment until i see the new description
18:09:30 <jongund> JN: We need get some new people to look at it
18:09:57 <jongund> RS: is putting it in the role presentation for ..
18:10:08 <jongund> JN: We need them in both places
18:10:13 <MichaelC> ack me
18:10:18 <jongund> CS: Even implementators
18:10:30 <jongund> RS: I am worried about the spec getting to big
18:10:40 <jongund> MC: We use supporting documents
18:11:42 <jongund> RS: I am looking at bullet 3 again, this was difficult approach
18:11:50 <Birkir> aria accessible name calculation is also tricky in that the spec does not exclusively state if user agents should stop when they find an accessible name, or continue down the list.
18:11:52 <jongund> CS: Give me an action
18:11:57 <Birkir> think a button with an aria-label and a title.
18:12:17 <jongund> RS: Can you work on this with Joesph, because he wrote this section
18:12:31 <jongund> CS: We can do it during the implementation call
18:12:39 <jongund> CS: It is really important
18:13:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Cynthia Work with Joseph S. and David B. to rewrite text alternative computation for both the ARIA spec. and the Core Accessibility API mappings specification.
18:13:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1474 - Work with joseph s. and david b. to rewrite text alternative computation for both the aria spec. and the core accessibility api mappings specification. [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2014-07-07].
18:14:18 <jongund> MK: I now understand why we have problems in the browser, IE column, exposes role system ..., see general rules
18:14:25 <jongund> RS: Who did that?
18:14:44 <jongund> MK: That's what is says to do ...
18:15:05 <jongund> CS: Part of the over all parent, a string within the windows
18:15:28 <jongund> MK: Expose the content, means to put it in the tree
18:15:46 <jongund> RS: We want to say the semantics goes away...
18:16:12 <jongund> MK: If is is going to be in the tree, even plain text has some kind of role
18:16:31 <jongund> MK: We want to make sure there is a sensible mapping, which we do not have
18:16:52 <jongund> RS: Do you want put the examples in the spec, but the spec gets bigger
18:17:08 <jongund> JN: the authoring practices can have more extensive examples
18:17:19 <jongund> JN: Authors need to know what is going to happen
18:17:27 <jongund> MK: I agree with you JN
18:17:41 <jongund> CS: An input and output table is crucial...
18:17:54 <jongund> MK: We need to train authors on how to use it properly
18:18:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-DOM-Level-3-Core-20040407/core.html
18:19:38 <jongund> RS: Do you want to create that?
18:19:50 <jongund> CS: I would like to have a collaborator
18:19:56 <MichaelC> ack me
18:20:26 <jongund> CS: What kind of drawing,I need to translate the thought into a picture
18:20:33 <jongund> MC: I would like to help
18:20:47 <jongund> CS: This would be good at the FTF meeting
18:22:02 <jongund> RS: Creating action item...
18:22:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Cynthia work with Michael C. and Joseph S. to create up to 4 Accessibility diagrams showing the application (before and after) of applying role=“presentation”/none
18:22:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1475 - Work with michael c. and joseph s. to create up to 4 accessibility diagrams showing the application (before and after) of applying role=“presentation”/none [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2014-07-07].
18:23:02 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1475 with issue-522
18:23:02 <trackbot> action-1475 (Work with michael c. and joseph s. to create up to 4 accessibility diagrams showing the application (before and after) of applying role=“presentation”/none) associated with issue-522.
18:23:18 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1474 with issue-522
18:23:18 <trackbot> action-1474 (Work with joseph s. and david b. to rewrite text alternative computation for both the aria spec. and the core accessibility api mappings specification.) associated with issue-522.
18:23:51 <jongund> RS: We have 7 minutes left
18:24:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#directory
18:25:25 <jongund> RS: Any objects, content from the name from?
18:26:40 <jongund> MK: Don't name from content
18:26:52 <jongund> JN: What name from content, all the content
18:27:23 <jongund> JN: For a table, it will be its contents, unless there is another label
18:27:35 <jongund> MK: Table needs a caption ....
18:27:40 <jongund> JN: Your right
18:27:55 <jongund> RS: Any object, the contents value for directory?
18:28:14 <jongund> MK: Do you delete that role in the table...
18:28:29 <jongund> RS: I would be just the author, not from contents
18:28:37 <jongund> RS: Action to editor
18:28:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: jcraig remove contents from the list of Name From values for role “directory”
18:28:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1476 - Remove contents from the list of name from values for role “directory” [on James Craig - due 2014-07-07].
18:29:31 <jongund> JN: Role=row takes name form contents
18:29:43 <jongund> RS: Like an e-mail program
18:29:56 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1476 with issue-643
18:29:56 <trackbot> action-1476 (Remove contents from the list of name from values for role “directory”) associated with issue-643.
18:29:58 <jongund> JN: Contents might be the right thing...
18:30:25 <jongund> MK: If it shouldn't have a name it should only have a value
18:30:33 <jongund> RS: Might break a product
18:30:43 <jongund> RS: We can take it off line
18:30:58 <jongund> rrsagent draft, minutes
18:31:13 <jongund> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:31:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/30-aria-minutes.html jongund
18:31:31 <jongund> NK: document is name form author only...
18:31:36 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
18:31:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: ISSUE 643 closed with action 1476
18:31:48 <jongund> MK: Grid is from author only
18:32:03 <jongund> RS: We are over time
18:32:45 <Zakim> -Birkir_Gunnarsson
18:32:55 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
18:32:59 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
18:33:00 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
18:33:00 <Zakim> -Chris_Gallello
18:33:02 <Zakim> -Matt_King
18:33:02 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
18:33:03 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
18:45:27 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
18:45:28 <Zakim> -janina
18:45:28 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has ended
18:45:28 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.919.607.aaaa, janina, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Jon_Gunderson, +1.603.882.aabb, Michael_Cooper, Birkir_Gunnarsson, Chris_Gallello, Joanmarie_Diggs, +1.415.624.aacc,
18:45:28 <Zakim> ... Bryan_Garanventa, Bryan_Garaventa, James_Nurthen, Cynthia_Shelly, +1.541.678.aadd, Matt_King
19:00:50 <janina> janina has changed the topic to: ARIA Weekly Teleconference; Monday 7 July at 17:00Z for 90 minutes; Zakim 92473#
20:37:22 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
22:20:23 <Birkir> Birkir has joined #aria