IRC log of wot on 2014-06-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:04:16 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
07:04:30 [fsasaki]
meeting: Workshop on the Web of Things - day 1
07:04:32 [fsasaki]
scribe: fsasaki
07:04:38 [fsasaki]
07:05:32 [fsasaki]
chair: Jörg Heuer, Dave Raggett
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topic: welcome
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jörg heuer introduces the workshop
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present: many, many, people
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jörg: why is Siemens interested in the WS topic?
07:07:29 [fsasaki]
.. Siemens organized in 4 sectors: industry, energy, health care, infrastructure & cities
07:07:43 [fsasaki]
.. we realized: we need to think across the verticals
07:08:17 [fsasaki]
.. web of thing activity is a lot about crossing domains
07:08:43 [fsasaki]
.. we need to "to understand the elephant called web of thing"
07:08:55 [fsasaki]
.. we'd like to exchange our perspectives and uses of the term
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07:11:59 [mbruss-w3c-de-at]
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topic: Brief introduction to W3C and workshop aims
07:15:42 [fsasaki]
dave: w3c: creating open standards under royalty free patent policy
07:15:59 [fsasaki]
.. standardization + pre-standardization activities in business groups and community groups
07:16:17 [fsasaki]
dave: internet of things is focusing on sensors etc.
07:16:27 [fsasaki]
.. we hope to form a group opinion what the "web of things" is
07:16:34 [fsasaki]
.. web has been around for 25 years now
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.. it is the most interoperable platform across devices today
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07:17:13 [fsasaki]
.. the web has transformed the way we communicate - web of things will do the transformation hopefully again
07:17:54 [fsasaki]
.. why are we here today? there is fragmentation in the technology area around "wot"
07:18:03 [fsasaki]
.. we want to discuss: what kind of open standards are needed?
07:18:12 [fsasaki]
.. what application domains + use cases are relevant?
07:18:17 [fsasaki]
.. what role should W3C take?
07:18:24 [fsasaki]
.. we had many submissions, thanks a lot for that
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.. we have panel sessions + break out sessions. Each session leader is responsible for taking notes and for reporting back
07:18:54 [fsasaki]
.. we need those minutes for the WS minutes
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07:19:43 [fsasaki]
.. over 100 participants and many major companies - also lots of breakout topics, see the wiki linked from the agenda
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topic: session "Sharing experiences, use cases and requirements"
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first speaker johannes hund
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topic: Johannes Hund, Siemens -- web technologies in smart grid and EV applications
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07:22:12 [fsasaki]
johannes: there is a lot of processes across industry domains, involving multiple stakeholders
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.. there are key enablers. increasing processing power and communication facilities
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.. example: smart gird application "virtual power plants" (VPP)
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.. loosely coupled control over "distributed energy resources"
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.. main application is the aggregation of data and orchestration
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.. many stakeholders are participating in the scenario: grid opeator, power plant, metering operator etc.
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.. operator wants to control the energy flow, but for energy traiding that may lead to contradictions
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.. we need an automation system
07:24:41 [fsasaki]
.. currently we have only a collaboration system
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.. we are using chatt protocols like XMPP
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.. example of vertual power plant with distritributed storage
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.. antother use case: charging of electric vehicle
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.. there is the vehicle, charging spot, user, energy provider etc.
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.. so again many user interact
07:26:14 [fsasaki]
.. for automation a system in the eNterop project was developed
07:26:25 [fsasaki]
.. so what drives wot and what does it enable?
07:26:43 [fsasaki]
.. many stakeholder come from automation point of view and from collaboration
07:26:59 [fsasaki]
.. and some aspects to realize that is possible with existing web technology
07:27:12 [fsasaki]
.. we need to provide an extensible framework
07:27:24 [fsasaki]
.. does not need to cover all use cases
07:27:30 [fsasaki]
.. need to encompass security etc.
07:28:02 [fsasaki]
.. we have breakout sessions that show such activities
07:28:20 [fsasaki]
jörg: thanks, johannes - questions?
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07:29:02 [fsasaki]
pablo: when we did web services in the 90s
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.. it was focusing on workflows
07:29:15 [fsasaki]
.. then more interaction came up
07:29:27 [fsasaki]
.. but we stil don't have a good way to push information
07:29:40 [fsasaki]
.. as you said: internet of things is closer to social networks
07:29:56 [fsasaki]
.. we need to realize that the traditional web services don't fit for this
07:30:00 [fsasaki]
jörg: exactly
07:30:14 [fsasaki]
.. with xmp you can break out the things that are modeled with soap services
07:30:26 [fsasaki]
.. into patterns that fit in applications
07:30:41 [fsasaki]
topic: Yusuke Doi, Toshiba -- Long Life Web of Things with EXI
07:31:47 [fsasaki]
Yusuke: my point of view here is as a member of W3C EXI working group
07:31:58 [fsasaki]
.. we expect that billions of devices will be connected to the internet
07:32:12 [fsasaki]
.. one aspect of the volumen: E-Waste
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.. some part of the devices will produce waste
07:32:58 [fsasaki]
.. there will be some early innnovators, some may last long, some may fail
07:34:17 [fsasaki]
Yusuke: we cannot update or re-publish the "big things"
07:34:53 [fsasaki]
.. there are candidate wot standards [list of various standards from ISO and others] - they are defiend in XML / UML data models relying on XML Schema
07:36:23 [fsasaki]
.. these things are not so smart and cool, but we can use them to build reliable applications
07:36:47 [fsasaki]
.. focus on the bottom layer: what are the things, how they can interact, how to assure their sustainability
07:36:59 [fsasaki]
.. some of you may think: XML is not ready to be used on devices
07:37:29 [fsasaki]
.. example of wot application using xmpp (=XML protocol)
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07:38:01 [fsasaki]
.. the XML is encoded as EXI, that is: binary XML for interchange
07:38:28 [fsasaki]
.. EXI can be used as alternative to XML. because it is binary the encoder does not need to think about encoding, spacing / newlines etc.
07:38:52 [fsasaki]
.. because EXI uses XML Schema as a source of grammer, it is a state machine that can be implemented in a tiny way
07:39:05 [fsasaki]
.. XML is ready for "things"
07:39:47 [fsasaki]
.. need to define: what a device is, data model of things, communication model
07:40:09 [fsasaki]
.. recent activities from EXI working group
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.. have published as a proposed recommendation: EXI profile for efficient use of memory
07:40:55 [fsasaki]
.. also grammar exchange format (under discussion)
07:42:46 [fsasaki]
.. example of trick for implementing xml schema based communication on tiny devices
07:43:48 [fsasaki]
.. from a certain point of view XML is just a text
07:43:55 [fsasaki]
.. the interpretation comes with the data model
07:44:08 [fsasaki]
.. certain devices don't need to know all parts of the model
07:44:25 [fsasaki]
.. if we can do that we can have a significant reduction of XML schema or EXI grammar size
07:44:41 [fsasaki]
.. such tricks can help to enable XML & standard based communication on tiny devices
07:45:24 [fsasaki]
.. so: wot may require some standards that we can rely on to build long lasting cool applications
07:45:38 [fsasaki]
.. such a standard will require data model description language like XML Schema
07:45:47 [fsasaki]
.. json is good to but it has less ability to describe data models
07:46:14 [fsasaki]
.. XML is a good approach - it has been created by W3C (= us). This WS is a good place to discuss what we should have
07:46:51 [fsasaki]
.. EXI is one example, it is just a tool to realize wot. Main point is: we cannot make standards for everything
07:47:11 [fsasaki]
.. the actual domain specific standards should be discussed e.g. in OASIS (e.g. for health care = HL7)
07:47:26 [fsasaki]
.. maybe the WS can help to make a meta standard, that should be interoperable
07:48:51 [fsasaki]
07:49:15 [fsasaki]
yusuke: depending on the domain, sustainability is more or less important
07:49:25 [fsasaki]
.. e.g. for smart phones less important, for train systems more
07:49:30 [fsasaki]
topic: Masaki Umejima, Japanese Smart Community Alliance -- ECHONET Lite enables Demand Side Energy Management - IP based and IEC's open standardized interface for home appliances
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07:51:39 [fsasaki]
Masaki: my story is based on nation wide implementation, not research
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07:52:14 [fsasaki]
.. I am in charge of smart meters in japan, from technical specification to implementation etc.
07:52:29 [fsasaki]
.. this september we will start adoption in Tokio area
07:52:40 [mcf]
07:52:50 [fsasaki]
.. in 8 years all japan meters will "speak" IP
07:53:10 [fsasaki]
masaki: my role is to address parameter adoption
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.. the japanese parameter specification sometimes receives complaints from international partners
07:54:16 [fsasaki]
.. one must understand that Japan's ECHNOET lite power meter is not domestic
07:55:11 [fsasaki]
.. a very unique approach which can provide many opportunities for you as well
07:55:26 [fsasaki]
.. you can download technical spec of ECHNOET LITE from the web
07:56:02 [fsasaki]
.. ECHONET LITE will be IEC standard. 200 companies are in ECHONET consortium, including oversea companies like IBM
07:56:14 [fsasaki]
.. we have close relationsship also in Asia
07:56:21 [mcf]
mcf has changed the topic to: WoT workshop - day 1
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I have made the request to generate fsasaki
07:56:46 [fsasaki]
.. step by step we will cover many areas, so now we must discuss with America + Europe
07:57:11 [fsasaki]
.. ECHONET LITE is a liaison partner in W3C, want to discuss with you how to move forward
07:57:34 [mcf]
07:58:01 [fsasaki]
[Demo about ECHONET Lite]
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masaki: ECHONET commands to turn on / turn off light
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. now batch control of air conditioner
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s/\. now/.. now
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[air conditioner is talking]
08:01:00 [fsasaki]
masao: about HEMS interop test centre
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.. ongoing interop test case #1
08:01:58 [fsasaki]
.. new business model "smart house"
08:02:07 [fsasaki]
.. being commercialized
08:02:42 [fsasaki]
.. we need to discuss open standards like ECHNONET Lite on the open web platform
08:03:48 [fsasaki]
philippH: why is it LITE? What was the HEAVY counterpart?
08:04:03 [fsasaki]
masaki: ECHONET did not support IP
08:04:20 [fsasaki]
.. and another difference: ECHONET was not open, E. LITE is
08:04:34 [fsasaki]
topic: Nick Allott, impleo -- IOT interoperability using web technologies: lessons learned and future challenges
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08:04:59 [mcf]
Nick Allott
08:05:51 [mcf]
(nquiring minds)
08:06:29 [fsasaki]
nick: three contexts: webinos project, niquiring minds, and ubiapps
08:07:26 [fsasaki]
nick: IP licensing costs in radio technology - currently too expensive
08:07:53 [fsasaki]
.. you as IOT operator don't have IP support since it is too expensive from power and licensing perspective
08:08:03 [fsasaki]
.. 2nd comment: speed is essential
08:08:35 [fsasaki]
.. 3rd point: if you talk about IoT, interop - you should re-use what is available
08:08:49 [fsasaki]
.. we need to see what is good, put it together and address the challenges
08:09:03 [fsasaki]
.. IOT challenges: first connecting devices
08:09:20 [fsasaki]
.. using TLS gives you security, encryption etc.
08:09:25 [fsasaki]
.. second: provenance
08:09:56 [fsasaki]
.. we are using PKI. every connection is based on a mutually authenticated connection via TLS and using PKI
08:09:59 [fsasaki]
.. third: access
08:10:12 [fsasaki]
.. need to be able to control data access
08:10:22 [fsasaki]
.. we picked XACML from OASIS
08:10:35 [fsasaki]
.. then: addressing (remote)
08:10:51 [fsasaki]
.. how to address the sensor / capability on a different device
08:11:07 [fsasaki]
.. the URI needs to be clever - not every domain will resolve to a specific IP address
08:11:18 [fsasaki]
.. the sensor only sometimes may be connected
08:11:30 [fsasaki]
.. so need to be smart on how to produce an URI for this situation
08:11:43 [fsasaki]
.. fith: discovery
08:12:01 [fsasaki]
.. a lot of stuff is available
08:12:15 [fsasaki]
.. since IOT is constrained we need to be careful. we are using FEATURE-URI
08:12:37 [fsasaki]
.. nice thing about it: it is extensible, URI based - everyone can specify their needs
08:12:51 [fsasaki]
.. then: capability
08:13:06 [fsasaki]
.. I as an APP developer - how do I act on data
08:13:18 [fsasaki]
.. the developer wants a Javascript API
08:13:34 [fsasaki]
.. you can talk about IOT protocols, there is a lot of tech out.
08:13:51 [fsasaki]
.. the only way to manage this diversity is to have a functional abstraction
08:14:08 [fsasaki]
.. then: invoking: nice to call a capability from a browser
08:14:29 [fsasaki]
.. for IOT to work: I want to invoke from other systems
08:14:36 [fsasaki]
.. we are using JSON-RPC
08:14:56 [fsasaki]
.. it allows to access a sensor between devices
08:15:05 [fsasaki]
.. with total flexibility of using javascript
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08:17:07 [fsasaki]
.. advanced topic: address local, global protection
08:17:26 [fsasaki]
.. policy sync
08:19:07 [fsasaki]
.. handle legacy issues
08:19:20 [fsasaki]
.. at the end there is no single point of control in the architecture
08:19:41 [fsasaki]
.. this is one of the biggest task that W3C could deal with in the IOT space
08:20:14 [fsasaki]
.. if W3C will engage in the space, how much of the problem will be in scope? that is what I want to know at the end of the workshop
08:21:15 [fsasaki]
topic: QA
08:21:27 [fsasaki]
jeff: what are the 2-3 things we should focus on quickly?
08:21:38 [fsasaki]
nick: simple javascript abstraction
08:21:42 [fsasaki]
... and a security model
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.. I have seen things fail if people don't address that upfront
08:22:47 [fsasaki]
topic: demo elevator pitch
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[short summaries of demo slosts]
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now coffee break + demos
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scribenick: kaz
09:09:28 [kaz]
topic: am2
09:09:45 [kaz]
topic: From things to the Web of Things
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topic: Shigeru Owada, Sony -- Kadecot: Android Web API Server for Home Appliances and Sensors
09:10:08 [kaz]
-> Paper
09:10:14 [kaz]
-> Slides tbd
09:10:52 [kaz]
shigeru: (Polling Manager)
09:11:28 [kaz]
... polling manager publishes how many apps are interested in each resource
09:11:35 [kaz]
... (WebAPI)
09:11:58 [kaz]
... WAMP protocol
09:12:41 [kaz]
... an application named "Moe-kaden"
09:13:11 [kaz]
... IoT service and cute character
09:13:15 [kaz]
... (Demos)
09:13:30 [kaz]
... two videos
09:13:45 [kaz]
... 1st, RPC demo
09:13:58 [kaz]
... recognizes your voice input
09:14:08 [kaz]
... 2nd, PubSub demo
09:14:25 [kaz]
... distributing manuals
09:15:00 [kaz]
... ECHONET Lite emmulater
09:15:25 [kaz]
... in case of errors, manuals will be shown interactively
09:15:41 [kaz]
09:16:03 [kaz]
ken: kensaku komatsu from NTT Communications, Japan
09:16:09 [kaz]
... home server
09:16:21 [kaz]
... discover the home network server?
09:16:28 [kaz]
... what kind of mechanism?
09:16:48 [kaz]
shigeru: device will be automatically discovered using ECHONET Lite, etc.
09:16:56 [kaz]
ken: but you use WAMP as well?
09:17:06 [kaz]
shigeru: one possibility is using UPnP, etc.
09:17:25 [kaz]
ken: so the Web browsers should use UPnP, etc.
09:17:28 [kaz]
shigeru: right
09:17:46 [mcf]
Ryuichi Matsukura, Fujitsu -- Service platform with Web based interface to control devices
09:17:51 [kaz]
topic: Ryuichi Matsukura, Fujitsu -- Service platform with Web based interface to control devices
09:18:05 [kaz]
-> Paper
09:18:10 [kaz]
-> Slides tbd
09:18:22 [kaz]
ryuichi: (Background)
09:18:33 [kaz]
... devices connected to network
09:18:43 [kaz]
... home security, healthcare, HEMS
09:18:59 [kaz]
... a "service platform" manages the interaction
09:19:21 [kaz]
... (What is the service platform?)
09:19:32 [kaz]
... advantages
09:20:15 [kaz]
... without the service platform, apps depend on different device interfaces
09:20:46 [kaz]
... the service platform makes it easier to use multiple devices
09:20:57 [kaz]
... (Deployment of service platform)
09:21:06 [kaz]
... two types of deployment
09:21:30 [kaz]
... aggregate type and distribute type
09:21:39 [kaz]
... (Functional architecture)
09:21:48 [kaz]
... three categories
09:21:56 [kaz]
... ITU-T SG 13 work
09:22:23 [kaz]
... will become a standard by the end of 2014
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09:22:37 [kaz]
... device adapters
09:23:15 [kaz]
... three categories: app execution, device operation, remote management
09:23:47 [kaz]
... if there is a trouble, notice will be sent to the user/admin
09:23:57 [kaz]
... (Devices applicable to service platform)
09:24:25 [kaz]
... basic devices
09:24:53 [kaz]
... air conditioner class has properties like operating status, operating mode
09:25:13 [kaz]
... basic devices support std interfaces like ECHONET Lite, KNX, SEP 2.0
09:25:19 [kaz]
... (Basic device operation)
09:25:34 [kaz]
... home gateway converts device commands
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09:26:20 [kaz]
... virtual devices correspond to objects
09:26:57 [kaz]
... s/objects/device objects/
09:27:07 [kaz]
... (Device operation without device object)
09:27:20 [kaz]
... non-basic device can also get conected
09:27:28 [kaz]
09:27:38 [kaz]
... (Sample applications for service platform)
09:27:51 [kaz]
... 24 facilities with 28 kinds of 820 devices
09:28:01 [kaz]
... ECHONET Lite is used
09:28:29 [kaz]
... (Conclusion)
09:28:54 [kaz]
... service platform can flexibly connect with multiple services and multiple devices
09:29:16 [kaz]
... WoT framework should support existing devices
09:29:23 [kaz]
... (Video demo)
09:29:41 [kaz]
... Web interface
09:29:45 [kaz]
... push "living room"
09:29:59 [kaz]
... realtime video image
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09:30:14 [kaz]
... remote interface for the air conditioner
09:30:32 [kaz]
... would show the details later
09:30:35 [kaz]
09:30:44 [kaz]
dsr: discovery?
09:31:00 [kaz]
ryu: ECHONET Lite has that mechanism as well
09:31:18 [kaz]
(dsr checks where the memory stic is)
09:31:22 [kaz]
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09:32:41 [kaz]
topic: Ricardo Morin et al, Intel -- Programming Device Ensembles in the Web of Things
09:32:50 [kaz]
-> Paper
09:32:54 [kaz]
-> Slides tbd
09:33:10 [kaz]
ricardo: programming device ensembles
09:33:18 [Benoit_OrangeLabs]
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09:33:24 [kaz]
... (Today's IOT programming model...)
09:33:41 [kaz]
... embedded computing
09:33:44 [kaz]
... device centric
09:33:54 [kaz]
... statically partitioned
09:34:20 [kaz]
... constrained by device capabilities
09:34:58 [kaz]
... vendor-specific solution
09:35:10 [kaz]
... scale limited
09:35:19 [kaz]
... (WoT model should evolve...)
09:35:30 [kaz]
... ensemble programming
09:35:37 [kaz]
... everything is a resource
09:35:49 [kaz]
... sensors, actuators
09:35:56 [kaz]
... devices and capabilities
09:36:07 [kaz]
... app runtimes and app services
09:36:27 [kaz]
... apps are dynamic
09:36:39 [kaz]
... resource discovery
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09:36:57 [kaz]
... multiparty authorization
09:37:08 [kaz]
... remote workers
09:37:42 [kaz]
... e.g., owner of the building, sensors, etc.
09:38:06 [kaz]
... off-loading computation
09:38:31 [kaz]
those are three particular areas to consider
09:38:41 [kaz]
... (Discover "nearby" sensors
09:38:47 [kaz]
09:38:50 [kaz]
... need APIs
09:39:07 [kaz]
... hide the details
09:39:21 [kaz]
... intelligent container
09:40:24 [kaz]
... location sensor for cargo
09:40:31 [kaz]
... URL for resources
09:40:42 [kaz]
... could be global advertisement
09:40:54 [kaz]
... discovery phase must be semantic
09:41:05 [kaz]
... concept of "near"
09:41:17 [kaz]
... meets the criteria
09:41:44 [kaz]
... the semantics of "near" includes "local"
09:42:16 [kaz]
... what is the permission?
09:42:30 [kaz]
... user managed access
09:43:05 [kaz]
... fundamental hypothesis is "you don't know anything"
09:43:50 [kaz]
... (Off-load intensive computation)
09:44:16 [kaz]
... we propose using workers model
09:44:49 [kaz]
... (Putting it together...)
09:44:55 [kaz]
... intelligent container
09:45:17 [kaz]
... (Our tam is ready to participate and contribute in these areas)
09:45:33 [kaz]
... discovery, authorization , code off-loading
09:45:42 [kaz]
09:45:49 [kaz]
jeff: tx for interesting presentation
09:45:57 [kaz]
... well-defined areas
09:46:17 [kaz]
ricardo: UMA is IETF standard
09:46:24 [kaz]
... publicly available
09:46:40 [kaz]
jeff: remote support?
09:47:02 [kaz]
ricardo: yes
09:47:16 [kaz]
dsr: demo during the breakout
09:47:41 [kaz]
topic: Dave Conway-Jones, IBM -- Node-RED: a wiring tool for the Internet of Things
09:47:53 [kaz]
-> web site
09:47:54 [jeff]
Jeff: Are some of the new areas such as remote support available in a public document
09:48:27 [kaz]
dave: (Node-RED)
09:48:28 [jeff]
Ricardo: We have worked on such areas, mostly it is error handling (e.g. no resource available) that needs to be added to the Workers spec. We can provide that.
09:49:03 [kaz]
dave: (Why Node-RED)
09:49:46 [kaz]
... IoT does not have a one-size-fits-all solution
09:50:01 [kaz]
... (We need tools...)
09:50:36 [kaz]
... Node-RED can fill that up
09:51:00 [kaz]
... visiting the web site:
09:51:21 [kaz]
,,. (actually localhost)
09:51:37 [kaz]
09:51:57 [kaz]
... (draw a diagram and generate JavaScript automatically)
09:52:05 [davecj]
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09:52:29 [kaz]
... e.g., sending an email
09:52:46 [kaz]
... (Node-RED is)
09:53:02 [kaz]
... app generation tool
09:53:10 [kaz]
... (Node-RED is NOT)
09:53:29 [kaz]
... an enterprise strength application runtime
09:54:04 [kaz]
... (Inject node, Debug node, ...)
09:55:07 [kaz]
... (Node-RED animation)
09:55:29 [kaz]
... (From the edge of...)
09:55:47 [kaz]
... (Function Node)
09:56:04 [kaz]
... (Easy to wrap any npm module into a pallete node)
09:56:15 [kaz]
... (demo again)
09:56:24 [kaz]
s/demo/demo on localhost/
09:57:14 [davecj]
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09:57:18 [kaz]
... IRC node to WebSocket
09:57:33 [kaz]
... works and easy
09:58:04 [davecj]
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09:58:31 [kaz]
... (Live Wordcloud)
09:58:40 [kaz]
... (Live Dashboards)
09:58:47 [aharth]
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09:59:01 [kaz]
... (From the edge of the network...)
09:59:15 [kaz]
... (... to the cloud - IBM Bluemix)
09:59:32 [kaz]
... easy to move flows
09:59:39 [kaz]
... (Wiring the internet of things
10:00:03 [janina]
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10:00:21 [kaz]
@@@: need parameter description?
10:00:29 [kaz]
... how to maintain?
10:00:32 [kaz]
... who defines?
10:00:57 [kaz]
dave: actual messages are described here (type and ID description)
10:01:19 [mcf]
s/@@@/Andreas Harth, KIT
10:01:19 [kaz]
@@@: have to convince people to write the descriptions?
10:01:32 [mcf]
s/@@@/Andreas Harth, KIT
10:01:59 [kaz]
###: schema for input/output?
10:02:14 [mcf]
s/###/Johannes Hund, Siemens
10:02:24 [kaz]
dsr: can talk during breakout sessions
10:02:36 [kaz]
@@1: working on protocols
10:02:47 [kaz]
... interested to talk with you
10:03:00 [kaz]
topic: Kazuo Kajimoto, Panasonic -- Consumer Electronics and Web of Things
10:03:29 [kaz]
-> Slides
10:03:48 [kaz]
kazuo: (WoT Applications around CEs)
10:03:54 [kaz]
... many possibilities
10:04:27 [kaz]
... smart house example
10:04:34 [kaz]
... (Wonder Live Box 2020)
10:04:52 [kaz]
... smart home business globally
10:05:08 [kaz]
... working with house manufacturers
10:05:21 [kaz]
... using ECHONET
10:05:30 [mcf]
s/@@1/Jon Nordby, The Grid
10:05:53 [kaz]
... the system works with the other companies' devices as well
10:06:37 [kaz]
... convenient, relaxed and high quality life in the near future
10:06:48 [kaz]
s/future/future (in 2020)
10:07:03 [kaz]
... (WoT Model Description and APIs)
10:07:12 [kaz]
... abstract architecture
10:07:33 [kaz]
... right side is the physical world
10:07:53 [kaz]
... vertualization of devices
10:08:32 [kaz]
... application cloud APIs to control vertualized devices
10:08:47 [kaz]
... that is type 1 interface
10:09:01 [kaz]
... type 2 interface is device APIs
10:09:38 [kaz]
... there are those two different types of APIs
10:09:52 [kaz]
... (Comparison of App-Cloud API and Device API)
10:10:11 [kaz]
... cloud might be an agent of device
10:11:40 [kaz]
... both types are important
10:11:54 [kaz]
... we'd like to contribute to type 1
10:12:10 [kaz]
... (Physical Control Protocol Independency)
10:12:22 [kaz]
... many physical control protocols
10:12:46 [kaz]
... but they should be independent from app cloud APIs
10:13:05 [davecj]
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10:13:33 [kaz]
... (Variety of App-Cloud API Description)
10:13:50 [janina]
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10:14:07 [kaz]
... our current system is based on JS assuming WebSocket
10:14:17 [kaz]
... trying to support various mechanisms
10:14:31 [kaz]
... (Type of App-Cloud API)
10:14:41 [kaz]
... four types of APIs
10:14:48 [kaz]
... (Concern)
10:15:00 [kaz]
... WoT is our dream
10:15:08 [kaz]
... but there is some concern
10:15:27 [kaz]
... safety issues, privacy issues and business/security issues
10:15:35 [davecj]
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10:15:53 [kaz]
... if somebody controls my air conditioner, that's not good
10:16:26 [davecj]
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10:16:27 [kaz]
... also an app might be able to peep the others' houses
10:16:43 [kaz]
... user authentication might be better
10:17:00 [kaz]
... better to provide both open API and authority managed API
10:17:09 [kaz]
10:17:47 [kaz]
topic: Laurent-Walter Goix, et al, Telecom Italia -- Smart social spaces: opportunities and challenges of the social web of things
10:17:55 [kaz]
-> Paper
10:18:02 [kaz]
-> Slides tbd
10:19:00 [kaz]
laurent: concept is mentioned by Ericsson some years ago
10:19:13 [kaz]
... 2009
10:19:20 [kaz]
... (Smart Social Spaces)
10:19:32 [kaz]
... issues we're facing
10:19:51 [kaz]
... smart objects
10:19:56 [kaz]
... smart social spaces
10:20:17 [kaz]
... (Smart Social Spaces: our vision from IoT to (S)WoT)
10:20:50 [kaz]
... integration of IoT with the Web is limited
10:21:29 [kaz]
... (S.W.O.T on SWoT: so what?)
10:22:03 [kaz]
... activity streams
10:22:17 [kaz]
... each of things is an entity
10:22:38 [kaz]
... identity and relationship
10:23:15 [kaz]
... missing data model
10:23:35 [kaz]
... having discussion on social web of things
10:24:07 [kaz]
... coming up these days
10:24:35 [kaz]
...(Social Web of Things: (some) features & issues)
10:24:47 [kaz]
... cloud-based notifications
10:24:54 [kaz]
... local space notifications
10:26:50 [kaz]
... common issues: SN account vs object addressing, access control ad audience targeting, information filtering, interaction paradigms
10:27:33 [kaz]
... temperature information is not of users' interest
10:27:49 [kaz]
... internationalization
10:28:09 [kaz]
... concurrent (multiple) access
10:28:21 [kaz]
... sharing one thing with many people
10:28:30 [kaz]
... (BUTLER Smart Office trial)
10:28:42 [kaz]
... FP7 BUTLER project
10:29:15 [kaz]
... (Current standardization activities: Open Mobile Alliance)
10:29:29 [kaz]
... white paper on "social web of things"
10:29:51 [kaz]
... (Our interest within W3C)
10:30:06 [kaz]
... web of things wg focusing on "Things"
10:30:31 [kaz]
... social web wg focusing on "social"
10:30:45 [kaz]
10:30:51 [kaz]
dave: interesting
10:31:17 [kaz]
... the way works today is each social services are separate
10:31:35 [kaz]
... should work for multiple parties
10:31:46 [kaz]
... that's the purpose of OMA work
10:32:05 [marie]
s/Dave/Dave Conway-Jones, IBM
10:32:28 [kaz]
s/dave:/Dave Conway-Jones/
10:32:34 [kaz]
10:32:38 [kaz]
[ lunch ]
10:32:49 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:32:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kaz
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11:51:36 [marie]
scribe: Marie
11:51:42 [marie]
scribenick: marie
11:52:12 [marie]
[presenting breakout discussions]
11:52:14 [ph]
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11:52:22 [ph]
scribe: ph
11:52:38 [ph]
Topic: Security
11:52:46 [marie]
scribenick: ph
11:52:56 [ph]
Topic: Object Security in Web of Things - Ericsson
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11:54:51 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
11:54:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
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12:05:03 [ph]
Q (Joerg, Siemens): with constrained devices you may need hardware support - how does this work out?
12:05:45 [ph]
A: some constrained devices cannot handle all the standards, others can - if device cannot handle, need gateway to handle standards, and prop protocol, which may not provide security
12:06:04 [ph]
security may not always be needed in local situation
12:06:38 [ph]
Topic: Authentication for the Web of Things (Siemens)
12:23:01 [ph]
Q (Jeff, W3C): on automotive as best practice - they are hybrid apps - we have automotive bg in w3c - have you looked at that? same conclusions?
12:23:12 [ph]
A: right now apps are testing the market
12:23:27 [ph]
in automotive - car industry spending lots of money not for current use cases, but prepare for more
12:23:44 [ph]
any function car has should be available via api to developers
12:23:57 [ph]
massive hypothesis, they are testing it with "toy solutions"
12:24:53 [ph]
Q (??): when i unlock car, why do i have to login to the cloud? why can't i talk to car directly?
12:25:25 [ph]
A: business decision by car manufacturers - they are sensitive about crm store - not in the cloud, but in the data centers of vendors
12:27:53 [aharth]
s/Q (??)/Q (Andreas Harth)/
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12:28:55 [ph]
Topic: Trust-based Discovery for Web of Things Markets (Innova)
12:30:12 [dsr]
[note that the monohm talk was cancelled as they weren't able to get here]
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12:41:26 [ph]
Q (Joerg, Siemens): did you look at standardisation?
12:41:46 [ph]
A: W3C is part of this project - wrt trust: our vocabularies are based on W3C results
12:42:07 [ph]
also follow linked data approach - from linked data to linked services
12:42:19 [ph]
Q (Joerg): do you have deployed applications?
12:43:04 [ph]
A: not yet - testing with three different use cases - two smart cities - one for example on ski slopes - weather forecast from the slopes - also retail use case
12:43:29 [ph]
Topic: Breakout organization, elevator pitches for breakouts
12:43:47 [ph]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:43:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ph
12:44:09 [marie]
See the breakout wiki:
12:44:39 [JonathanJ]
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12:46:34 [ph]
Andreas Harth (KIT): Scripting in the WoT - how to specifiy interplay between sensors using rules
12:46:54 [ph]
if sensor x has value y, do z
12:47:44 [ph]
Dave Raggett, W3C: Service Description for the Web of Things - need way to describe services, what they depend on, what they export ... parallels to linux packaging
12:48:54 [ph]
Erik Wilde (Siemens): very close to what Dave has proposed - if you had service descriptions, how do you interact with these services - Atom inspired
12:49:07 [ph]
interaction models for the web of things
12:49:53 [ph]
also relation to social web wg - and activity streams - can wot infulence what happens in that wg, use it etc.
12:50:41 [ph]
Alessio (Innova): Business model for WoT - buiy and sell objects - some platforms already exist, but are they sustainable?
12:52:02 [ph]
Jens Haupert (DFKI): Digital object memories for WoT - store information with object throughout its lifecycle
12:54:07 [ph]
Dominique Guinard (Evrtyhng): The Web of Things Friendly Label - guidelines for device builders and cloud services builders
12:54:31 [ph]
inspiration from JS world where there are frameworks for building scalable apps
12:55:39 [Rferraz]
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12:56:03 [ph]
Hauke Perterse (Free University): Appllicaiton layer protocols and data encoding for constrained devices - want to have end2end connenctivity to constrained devices - look at emerging protocols that are more efficient than standard web protocols (http, xml based)
12:57:18 [ph]
Johm Massonn (Ericsson): Privacy in the Web of Things - lot of data on WoT will not be protected - home sensors give detailed information on how we live -
13:08:04 [kaz]
13:13:09 [Walter_Goix]
13:31:37 [janina]
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13:38:22 [kaz]
topic: Breakout
13:38:42 [kaz]
topic: Interaction Models for the Web of Things, Erik Wilde
13:39:03 [kaz]
-> Erik's slides
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15:04:19 [ph]
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15:04:19 [marie]
scribe: marie
15:04:22 [knagano]
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15:04:28 [marie]
scribenick: marie
15:04:48 [marie]
Topic: Breakout Session #1
15:05:17 [marie]
@@: service descriptions should focus on developers needs - simple APIs are prefered
15:05:42 [saka]
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15:05:44 [marie]
... also foucs on relevant market places
15:06:06 [marie]
... let's focus on reviews, payments details, etc.
15:06:29 [marie]
[minutes of this breakout session were already sent to dsr]
15:06:55 [marie]
Topic: Breakout session #2 - Interaction Models for the Web of Things
15:08:57 [marie]
Erik Wilde: may be those models are able enough, and cover most if the usgae scenarii
15:10:10 [marie]
... within Siemens, scenrios include home and office contexts, acting as hubs where we would gave a transversal interaction services
15:10:18 [marie]
... exposing the services in a uniform way
15:11:56 [marie]
... all is in fluc anyway. The social Web WG is starting, so I'd recommend to check what's happening in that space
15:13:10 [marie]
... also, let's explore how to reach out to this social web group from with what was discussed during this wsp
15:14:29 [marie]
[this breakout session minutes are also avail.]
15:14:43 [marie]
Topic: Breakout session #3 - Business models for the WoT
15:16:24 [marie]
Alession Gugliotta: standards for APis, standards for hardware developers, as well, as reuse of existing standards (security, etc.)
15:18:05 [marie]
... we also discussed revenue models and suggested some
15:18:11 [marie]
[minutes to be sent]
15:18:41 [marie]
Topic: Breakout session #3 - The WoT friendly label
15:18:53 [marie]
Dominique Guinard: (has slides)
15:19:29 [marie]
... we felt that coming up with a label was important, since becoming an upstream topic
15:20:04 [marie]
... WoT should be the app layer of the IoT
15:20:46 [marie]
... we looked at several freindliness layers ... may be come up with a set of guidelines
15:21:32 [marie]
... what should be friendly? devices, clouds, etc. May be have a WoT friednly stamp
15:22:39 [kaz]
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15:22:45 [marie]
... what would a bare minimum to have a friendly device?
15:23:28 [marie]
... we also talked about different protocols
15:24:03 [marie]
... and that there should be support to all of those and that bridges between those should be avail.
15:24:57 [lmedini]
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15:25:41 [marie]
... finally, the findability layer
15:26:04 [marie]
... how do I find my device on the Web
15:27:08 [marie]
... reuse what's already in place, such as Web security
15:27:31 [marie]
... thinking to create sth like for the IoT
15:27:53 [marie]
... encapsulated Web objets including the data and the metadata
15:28:13 [marie]
[breakout session notes to be sent later]
15:29:50 [marie]
Topic: Breakout session #4 - Privacy
15:30:17 [marie]
@@: around 1é-13 people. Strong agreemnt that this is a strong issue, but also an hard issue to solve
15:30:28 [marie]
... different regulations in dieffrent countries do exist
15:30:39 [marie]
15:31:08 [marie]
... need o find breaches to pursue legal actions
15:31:28 [marie]
... some people believe that regulations are the only way
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15:31:43 [marie]
... others say that regulators miss the point
15:32:19 [marie]
... right to revoke data access is a minimum need
15:33:05 [marie]
... group thought that W3C shoudl play a role to draft a policy data
15:33:12 [marie]
(notes to be mailed out)
15:33:42 [marie]
Topic: Panel session on core technologies - moderated by Jörg Heuer, Siemens
15:34:44 [marie]
Jörg: what technologies and what enable these technologies
15:34:59 [marie]
[introducing panelists]
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15:37:09 [marie]
Charampalos Doukas, CreateNet
15:38:35 [marie]
CD: purpose of my talk is how to bridge Web to the iOt
15:38:52 [marie]
15:39:28 [marie]
... it's up to dev. and siftware producers to select the best
15:40:59 [marie]
... about W3C contribution: it can identify solutions to the ap level
15:41:02 [marie]
15:41:30 [marie]
CD: the COMPOSE approach is to use JSON and meta tags
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15:41:53 [marie]
... to describe REST inside messages... W3C to standradize a schema?
15:42:27 [marie]
CD: I'll show a demo tomorrow - check it out
15:43:49 [marie]
... links of interest: glue.things, cloud foundry, Node Red... if you want to play with our platform, go to
15:44:13 [marie]
Matthias Kovatsch, ETH Zurich
15:44:46 [marie]
MK: "Let the WoT begin at the device level" is a simple statement
15:45:06 [marie]
s/is a /is my
15:45:48 [marie]
... device interoperability
15:46:02 [marie]
... usability of the Web to create new and more complex apps
15:46:23 [marie]
... creating value, optimizing processes are the goals
15:46:45 [marie]
Markus Isomäki, Nokia
15:48:07 [marie]
MI: my statement is "Interaction between Web clients and 'Constrained' Smart objects"
15:49:08 [marie]
... withing the owp, we are missing the ability to communicate with these devices
15:49:33 [marie]
... the CUAP protocol - an API for that would be useful
15:49:55 [dsr]
15:50:54 [marie]
Milan Patel, Huawei
15:51:59 [marie]
MP: items of considerations in order to choose core techs for the WoT
15:52:13 [marie]
... message today, what let's reuse as much as we can
15:52:21 [marie]
15:52:40 [marie]
... every device/sensor out there should be LTE connected
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15:53:21 [marie]
... having gateways allows protocol transmissions, and a certain level of security as well
15:53:40 [marie]
... providing to dev. effective toolkits
15:54:23 [JonathanJ3]
rrsagent, draft minute
15:54:23 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minute', JonathanJ3. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:54:24 [marie]
... consistency of data sets across use cases
15:54:36 [marie]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:54:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate marie
15:54:58 [marie]
... privacy should not be a barrier to innovation
15:55:25 [marie]
Charles Eckel, Cisco
15:56:30 [marie]
CE: real time communications, video conferencing, etc. is my background/experience
15:57:22 [marie]
... comm between apps and network, with additionnal devices - how are these are going to exist and operate in an optimal way
15:58:52 [janina]
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15:58:53 [marie]
... network providers need to support a wide range of apps.
15:59:07 [marie]
... apps to interact directly with the network
15:59:34 [marie]
... the network should give back the information on the devices' constraints
16:00:34 [marie]
Jörg: quite different perceptions on the panel topic
16:01:49 [ph]
scribenick: ph
16:02:02 [marie]
scribe: Philipp
16:02:33 [ph]
Mathias: ...
16:03:52 [dsr]
Charles: Money will be a big driver of what gets deployed.
16:03:58 [ph]
Charles: web of things is presentation of information, understanding it - money will be a driver - desire of people to share information could be a driver -
16:04:43 [ph]
Milan: most applications have human end consumer from brainstorming i've done today and earlier - strong driver for wot is power of mashing together data from different sources
16:05:55 [ph]
and add value - health, energy, disability, sports, .... - there will also be devices interacting with each other
16:06:39 [ph]
Markus: don't see open standards in industry right now - many silos - web just used for representation of data to the user - interaction with the device pre-determined by the vendor
16:07:19 [ph]
more opennes driven by developers and potential to mash up data coming from different vendors - something single vendor silos are not able to do
16:08:47 [ph]
Matthias: a lot of people already noticed silos don't work - coap was designed to connect devices using web patterns - oma has device management standards - created lightweight m2m standard that builds on top of coap -
16:09:06 [ph]
there is also ipso alliance - smart objects connected through ip
16:10:10 [ph]
Joerg: is there a definition of web of things? is part of internet of things? do we have same understanding? What is difference between IoT?
16:10:45 [ph]
Matthias: web and internet relation is same as wot iot relation - web is application layer of internet - wot plays same role for iot
16:11:26 [ph]
16:12:07 [ph]
Markus: pretty good definition - there's a bit of utopia in there, but I think it's reachable looking at the success of the web
16:12:24 [ph]
Milan: web of things is what will add value to the internet of things
16:13:08 [ph]
Charles: web of things will bring iot to vast amount of people - just like web did for computer usage - for everyone
16:13:48 [ph]
Charalampos: web of things is the user side of internet of things - web of things is using technologies that browsers can communicate with
16:14:01 [ph]
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16:15:02 [ph]
Joerg: would like to open it up a little - we observed that APIs are needed to get developers interested - others said to focus on protocols - Markus, where do you see balance between API and protocol technology?
16:15:51 [ph]
Markus: protocols are just the necessary tools - Web has worked well without introducing many new protocols - there is webrtc standardisation that required new comm protocol (UDP, RTP)
16:16:20 [ph]
if we want to enable local comm with constrained devices we may need some new protocols in the web platform
16:16:39 [ph]
we have xmlhttpreqest API right now - maybe we need sth new
16:16:52 [ph]
or a higher level API where you don't need to think about protocol
16:17:00 [ph]
but additions should be minimal
16:17:10 [ph]
COAP is on that path in my opinion
16:19:01 [ph]
Wolfgang Daust(?): regarding protocols - things means something physical - it has not only a sensor, but also an actuator - completely different from a human being - different response times
16:19:34 [ph]
the new thing is relationship to time - it matters for things
16:20:02 [ph]
Charles: i agree with that - that's why I mentioned network constraints
16:20:23 [ph]
you may want to know what is realtime and what is just bulk sensor data
16:21:07 [ph]
Charalampos: not a matter of a new protocol - it's not web on things, but of things - some decisions can be done locally
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16:22:31 [ph]
Joerg: on the application layer, what are the technologies we see as part of web of things - we talked about cross-vertical integration - what technologies are available to descsribe information we are exchanging, and to describe the services
16:23:20 [ph]
"please no new protocols" - are we already there?
16:23:51 [ph]
Charalampos: there are efforts to describe sensors semantically - how to describe services is also important so that they can be reused easily
16:25:09 [ph]
Matthias: we can learn from the web - many services that are easy to discover - use linking - many ways to describe services - microformants,, ... something is emerging - we still need some experience with wot, but am confident that we can pick one of the existing approaches
16:26:04 [ph]
...: we talked a lot about data - but things can have logic embedded as well - but they are constrained - constraints are a difference between web of things and web of services
16:26:18 [ph]
requires rule engines embedded into these things
16:27:10 [ph]
Charles: one of the presentations this morning discussed this well - data will be passed into the cloud to do crunching - if thing has more capacity, can do computation ittself
16:27:40 [ph]
Charalampos: ...
16:28:25 [ph]
Matthias: question is where you put your RESTful API - ... - can push it into the cloud
16:28:28 [ph]
to save money
16:28:31 [ph]
on device
16:29:05 [ph]
Johannes: is electrical vehicle a thing, or too big? what is a thing in WoT?
16:30:05 [ph]
Matthias: in Web, you link resources together - resources can be composed - you can make it as big as you want, but also drill down do lowest sensor
16:30:29 [ph]
Markus: similar to question: what is a resource?
16:30:40 [ph]
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16:32:10 [ph]
Joerg: ... what are your expectations towards W3C?
16:32:58 [ph]
Matthias: core components that made the web evolve - html - missing something like html for things - good representations, internet media types - should be reusable for many domains - not a model for each domain
16:33:08 [ph]
should have core data model that can be reused and specialised
16:33:44 [ph]
protocols we need more - also api - today web defined by what's in a browser - would like have a coap api, or even better a REST API
16:35:05 [ph]
Markus: web sockets have brought asynch comm - webrtc bringing in p2p and realtime - communication with constrained devices still missing - COAP API - device apis there has been a lot of work already
16:35:10 [ph]
there will be more of that
16:35:32 [ph]
how do you describe services and resources third area of work
16:36:51 [ph]
Milan: identifying technologies that are applicable to wot and iot w3c should do - w3c has re-examined technologies whether they fit mobile - should ask question again - are technologies wot friendly - how to make subtle changes so we can accomodate it given market is massive
16:37:33 [ph]
Charles: I hope W3C won't do a whole bunch of new protocols - W3C should focus on APIs, data models
16:37:47 [ph]
also something to replace inefficient polling - some sort of notification
16:38:26 [ph]
Charalampos: would like to see more events like this, more open to developers - need to listen to their needs
16:38:41 [ph]
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I have made the request to generate ph
16:38:58 [ph]
Topic: Wrap-Up
16:39:30 [ph]
Joerg: fog has cleared - look out of the window - there is some light
16:39:48 [ph]
but still a little foggy
16:40:31 [ph]
important to continue to talk to each other and continue conversations we started also after tomorrow evening
16:40:36 [ph]
rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate ph
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