11:16:51 RRSAgent has joined #csvw 11:16:51 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/25-csvw-irc 11:16:53 RRSAgent, make logs public 11:16:53 Zakim has joined #csvw 11:16:55 Zakim, this will be CSVW 11:16:55 ok, trackbot; I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 44 minutes 11:16:56 Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference 11:16:56 Date: 25 June 2014 11:17:34 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-06-24 11:17:41 Chair: JeniT 11:17:48 Scribe: Jeremy 11:34:38 jtandy has joined #csvw 11:54:36 JeniT has joined #csvw 11:57:01 MathewThomas has joined #csvw 11:57:57 DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has now started 11:58:04 + +1.937.207.aaaa 11:59:19 RRSAgent, make logs public 11:59:21 Zakim, this will be CSVW 11:59:21 ok, trackbot, I see DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM already started 11:59:22 Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference 11:59:22 Date: 25 June 2014 11:59:24 +??P2 11:59:27 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/csvw/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_2014-06-24 11:59:33 Chair: Jeni 11:59:36 zakim, P2 is me 11:59:36 sorry, jtandy, I do not recognize a party named 'P2' 11:59:38 zakim, dial ivan-voip 11:59:38 ok, ivan; the call is being made 11:59:39 +Ivan 11:59:44 zakim, ??P2 is me 11:59:44 +jtandy; got it 11:59:50 zakim, drop me 11:59:50 Ivan is being disconnected 11:59:51 -Ivan 12:00:04 +[IPcaller] 12:00:25 zakim, dial ivan-voip 12:00:25 ok, ivan; the call is being made 12:00:26 +Ivan 12:00:59 aaaa is Mathew 12:01:02 Scribe: Jeremy Tandy 12:01:13 scribenick: jtandy 12:01:22 zakim, mute me 12:01:22 jtandy should now be muted 12:01:45 I'll try some different headphone/mike 12:01:45 + +44.207.346.aabb 12:01:59 zakim, aaaa is Mathew 12:01:59 +Mathew; got it 12:02:30 Previous Minutes: http://www.w3.org/2014/06/18-csvw-minutes.html 12:02:47 looks good. 12:02:58 zakim, unmute me 12:02:58 jtandy should no longer be muted 12:03:35 zakim, mute me\ 12:03:35 sorry, jtandy, I do not know which phone connection belongs to me\ 12:03:37 zakim, mute me 12:03:37 jtandy should now be muted 12:04:15 topic: Approve agenda and previous 12:04:32 JeniT: any objections? 12:04:41 ... hearing none. 12:04:43 RESOLUTION: minutes at http://www.w3.org/2014/06/18-csvw-minutes.html are accepted 12:05:03 zakim, unmute me 12:05:03 jtandy should no longer be muted 12:05:05 Topic: Use Cases & Requirements 12:05:09 topic: CSV on the Web: Use Cases and Requirements 12:05:19 ScribeNick: JeniT 12:05:24 DavideCeolin has joined #csvw 12:05:38 jtandy: ready for republication as WD 12:05:51 … ivan needs to take it over to the web master for publication 12:05:58 … we’ve been through the workflow 12:06:01 +??P13 12:06:08 zakim, ??P13 is me 12:06:08 +DavideCeolin; got it 12:06:12 … there are changes put in as suggested by I18N group 12:06:23 … re 12:06:29 +[IPcaller] 12:06:34 … getting rid of validation issues, and improving the text 12:06:40 zakim, IPcaller is me 12:06:40 +AndyS; got it 12:06:46 … note to JeniT that the same changes will need to be done in the syntax document 12:07:10 zakim, who is on the phone? 12:07:10 On the phone I see Mathew, jtandy, Ivan, JeniT, danbri, DavideCeolin, AndyS 12:07:28 ivan: I will put everything up on the website before business end this afternoon 12:07:37 … then I expect it will be checked on Friday or Monday 12:07:48 … I don’t expect major issues 12:08:10 jtandy: we get an error on the patent policy but that comes from ReSpec 12:08:27 ivan: I’ll handle that 12:09:19 … probably published next Tuesday 12:09:28 … be good if a blog item or something to announce it would be good 12:09:33 … some text on the home page 12:10:31 danbri: I’ll do that 12:10:41 jtandy: the diff shows the new use cases 12:10:59 ACTION: danbri draft blog post 12:10:59 Created ACTION-25 - Draft blog post [on Dan Brickley - due 2014-07-02]. 12:11:08 jtandy: in terms of next steps, there might be more use cases that crop up as we go along 12:11:15 … I think danbri was trying to find one 12:11:25 … the requirements are all still in the ‘Candidate’ area at the moment 12:11:33 … yet to formally review which requirements are in or out 12:11:42 … which would require a cross reference against the other specs 12:12:19 yup don't wait; i'll try to get more schema.org-related UCs but I think the existing use cases catch a lot 12:12:50 JeniT: getting concrete CSVs out that we can try as examples 12:13:06 jtandy: many are there, where should we put them? 12:13:14 danbri: I’ve committed a structure we have in mind into github 12:13:37 https://github.com/w3c/csvw/tree/testing-variations/examples/tests 12:14:13 … aiming for a structured file tree allowing a common structure without baking in solutions 12:14:38 … structure that will allow for experimentation 12:14:43 … this branch has two different folders 12:15:04 … scenarios folder with README, CSV files, metadata documents, maybe target 12:15:37 … then one ore more attempts with input files copied from the main folder 12:15:46 … you could have a separate metadata file 12:15:54 … output files directory showing normal output 12:16:03 … and then template or mapping files for the magic stuff 12:16:15 … readme pointing off to documentation in the wiki etc 12:16:25 … I’m trying this out for one example 12:16:31 +[IPcaller] 12:16:46 rgrp has joined #csvw 12:16:50 hi all 12:16:51 jtandy: where would you like me to put the files from the UC spec? 12:17:22 ivan: they’re all in the folder at the moment 12:17:33 … they can be used or copied or we can refer to the TR space 12:17:45 … part of the folder that contains the use case document 12:17:54 jtandy: not every use case has files 12:18:10 … there would only be a subset of use cases that were applicable for this activity 12:19:00 … I can create a top-level directory which is ‘use cases’ 12:19:25 danbri: I think it’s ok to have a few identical copies in different places 12:19:37 … what’s missing is the tie between the .csv and the use case id 12:19:50 jtandy: I’ll create a bunch of subdirectories, one per use case 12:20:11 … we can change the names later if they should become scenarios 12:20:25 danbri: I’ll work through one or two before the end of the week, convince myself it works 12:20:30 … if it does then I’ll merge the branch 12:20:44 JeniT: anything else on use cases work? 12:20:52 zakim, mute me 12:20:52 jtandy should now be muted 12:20:57 ScribeNick: jtandy 12:21:18 topic: Mappings and template mechanisms 12:21:49 JeniT: discuss work on the mailing list ... 12:22:16 ivan: common theme to discuss the template mechanism 12:22:36 ... jeremy introduced the idea of micro syntax into the metadata 12:23:01 ... for a given cell, you can use a regexp to describe named elements of a structured cell value 12:23:23 zakim, unmute me 12:23:24 jtandy should no longer be muted 12:23:42 ... allowing one to reference a micro syntax element directly 12:24:11 ivan: the next thing we discussed is the need for conditional matching in the templates 12:24:16 zakim, mute me 12:24:16 jtandy should now be muted 12:24:32 ivan: there are some use cases that clearly indicate that we need conditional matching 12:24:41 ... complicated - but it seems necessary 12:25:31 ivan: Jeremy & I were wondering if the condition for the matching could be expressed using REGEXP matching 12:25:56 ivan: two different patterns: 12:26:26 ... Jeremy put the conditional match into the metadata itself; e.g. if the regexp is valid use _this_ template 12:27:03 ivan: concerned that this will lead to lots of alternative templates being provided; potentially very messy 12:27:48 is french mustache different from english? 12:27:54 ivan: proposed alternative to embed the conditional in the template itself - used example of moustache syntax 12:28:30 ivan: this allows one template to express all the if-then-else variations 12:28:44 zakim, unmute me 12:28:44 jtandy should no longer be muted 12:29:23 jtandy: example of organisational data into SKOS structure 12:29:24 (I think Ivan would prefer we used English along lines of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncleftish_Beholding ?) 12:30:19 ivan: the resulting syntax is "disgusting" 12:30:24 zakim, mute me 12:30:25 jtandy should now be muted 12:31:06 q+ 12:31:15 ack AndyS 12:31:16 JeniT: (meta level) question - given the choice of tempting, do we create a new syntax for a template or try to reuse? 12:31:17 q+ 12:31:48 AndyS: we should be as much informed by existing syntax as possible - but we need to have control over the details 12:31:52 q- 12:32:21 AndyS: for example the conditional blocks 12:32:48 q+ 12:32:50 AndyS: things like Moustache might change beyond our control ... and it does some things we don't want to do! 12:33:16 AndyS: the good news is that tempting languages are all fairly similar ... 12:33:19 ack ivan 12:33:35 just a note - i will need to head out a bit early - viz in about 7-10m 12:34:07 ivan: one additional thing, we agreed that this tempting mechanism would work for _all_ target langs 12:34:29 ... we've all used TTL so far in examples; need to check this against JSON and XML etc. 12:34:58 JeniT: to give time for discussion on metadata spec, lets truncate this conversation 12:35:32 ... but, are we confident that we've looked at the other template syntaxes? are we covering the things that other people have already found important 12:35:51 AndyS: looked at 10 java and 20 ruby template syntaxes 12:36:11 ... as classes of languages they're all quite similar (odd details aside) 12:36:20 JeniT: don't want to invent something new! 12:36:53 AndyS: but we're forced to "invent" something new because there are no _standard_ template syntaxes; we need to build for the long term 12:37:13 Topic: Metadata Spec 12:37:16 topic: Model for Tabular Data and Metadata on the Web 12:37:41 rgrp: (Rufus) I have been having regular catch ups with JeniT 12:38:02 ... items and issues are being raised on github 12:38:11 ... outstanding items include: 12:38:22 ... i) structured notes and annotations 12:38:31 ... ii) specifying the cdv dialietc 12:38:43 s/dialietc/dialect/ 12:38:43 https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues 12:39:16 rgrp: will raise the meaty concerns as issues with aim to have a new version out ahead of cdv conf next month 12:39:51 JeniT: plan is to convert the _issues in the document_ to _issues in github_ to allow the conversation to occur on github 12:40:39 rgrp: we'll make sure the team are aware of the issues that are raised 12:41:11 ivan: better tracking of the issues (e.g. on github) will be helpful in the long term as the issues within the document tend to disappeat 12:41:21 s/disappeat/disappear/ 12:41:55 JeniT: agreed - and the issue numbers change in the doc too! very difficult to get consistent reference! 12:42:11 ivan: when is csv conf? 12:42:18 rgrp: July 15th 12:42:57 ivan: do we want to have an official (FP)WD for metadata vocab and data model prior to cdv conf 12:43:01 i'm about to have to drop :-/ 12:43:14 JeniT: (I think!) seems like a good idea 12:43:43 ivan: in that case we need to target a particular publication date. 12:44:16 ivan: one issue to note is that because the metadata doc is new, we need to request an official "short name" 12:44:28 ... we need to do this urgently - today! 12:44:40 Publish! 12:45:03 ivan: call for formal resolution of metadata doc as FPWD 12:45:22 JeniT: inclined to publish; presumably this doesn't commit us to a date? 12:45:28 *Everything* can change after FPWD. 12:45:40 ivan: agreed - 12:45:51 rgrp: I don't want to rush things 12:46:06 ivan: OK - but FPWD is not stable - just a line in the sand 12:46:26 rgrp: ok 12:46:35 PROPOSED: To publish the metadata document as a fpwd, possibly on the week of the 7th of July 12:46:40 +1 12:46:43 +1 12:46:43 +1 12:46:46 +1 12:46:51 +0 12:47:07 i have to drop ;-) 12:47:07 1 12:47:09 +1 12:47:12 sounds good o&o for now 12:47:15 -[IPcaller] 12:47:16 +1 12:47:18 RESOLVED: To publish the metadata document as a fpwd, possibly on the week of the 7th of July 12:47:19 +1 12:47:46 ivan: I will request the short name for the metadata document TODAY; copy JeniT 12:48:18 ivan: when do think you can have both metadata doc and data model doc ready for publication? 12:48:25 JeniT: data model doc is ready now 12:49:02 ... rgrp wants to do more work on the metadata vocal doc 12:49:22 ... but think we should be ready to run through the publication workflow next week 12:49:40 ivan: great ... let's make sure to publish both docs on the same day 12:49:59 JeniT: any other questions about the metadata or data model doc? 12:50:04 ... hearing none 12:50:34 JeniT: all to be aware that the plan is to raise a bunch of issues about the metadata doc over this week and next 12:50:45 JeniT: any other questions about mapping? 12:50:55 AndyS: any movement about JSON and XML? 12:51:12 JeniT: have pestered Ross Jones and Rufus about JSON 12:51:24 ... have Adam in my sights for XML mapping 12:51:49 JeniT: the only other thing, thinking about the micro syntax parsing ... 12:52:23 this? http://www.jenitennison.com/datatypes/DTLL.html 12:52:46 q+ 12:52:47 (?[year]-?[0-9]{4})-(?[month][0-9]{2})-(?[day][0-9]{2}) 12:52:51 JeniT: way back [in the distant past when dinosaurs roamed the earth] I did some work on using single regexp to pull out subgroups ... 12:53:19 ... using named subexpressions within a regexp 12:53:37 ... this is supported in _some_ regexp implementations 12:53:42 AndyS: which ones? 12:53:55 ivan: I know you can number subexpressions 12:54:34 JeniT: yes ... naming is useful; e.g. Jeremy was trying to associate particular subexpressions? 12:54:44 zakin, unmute me 12:54:50 zakim, unmute me 12:54:50 jtandy should no longer be muted 12:55:06 q+ 12:55:11 q- 12:55:16 http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_40_0/libs/regex/doc/html/boost_regex/syntax/perl_syntax.html#boost_regex.syntax.perl_syntax.named_subexpressions 12:55:23 Perl regexes 12:55:44 http://www.pcre.org/pcre.txt 12:55:45 zakim, mute me 12:55:45 jtandy should now be muted 12:56:02 danbri: there is utility in naming subexpressions 12:56:17 http://regexkit.sourceforge.net/Documentation/pcre/pcresyntax.html 12:56:17 """ 12:56:17 NAMED SUBPATTERNS 12:56:17 12:56:17 Identifying capturing parentheses by number is simple, but it can be 12:56:17 very hard to keep track of the numbers in complicated regular expres- 12:56:17 sions. Furthermore, if an expression is modified, the numbers may 12:56:17 change. To help with this difficulty, PCRE supports the naming of sub- 12:56:18 patterns. This feature was not added to Perl until release 5.10. Python 12:56:18 had the feature earlier, and PCRE introduced it at release 4.0, using 12:56:18 the Python syntax. 12:56:19 """ 12:56:35 JeniT: my paper has been accepted at CSV conf 12:56:53 JeniT: danbri and I are away next week so we will cancel next weeks call 12:56:58 JeniT: AOB? 12:56:59 -DavideCeolin 12:57:00 -JeniT 12:57:01 -danbri 12:57:03 -AndyS 12:57:03 -Mathew 12:57:03 ... hearing none 12:57:04 -Ivan 12:57:07 ADJOURNED 12:57:14 JeniT: meeting is closed. 12:57:23 -jtandy 12:57:24 DATA_CSVWG()8:00AM has ended 12:57:24 Attendees were +1.937.207.aaaa, Ivan, jtandy, JeniT, +44.207.346.aabb, danbri, Mathew, DavideCeolin, AndyS, [IPcaller] 12:59:10 [post meeting] jtandy adds that two ways to pull out named subelements from a micro syntax were tried; i) several regexp each capturing one value and ii) one regexp pulling out _multiple_ regexp ... 13:00:06 Only recent versions of languages support this feature. 13:00:50 which versions of Java do you support for jena? 13:01:06 And there is more than one syntax. Perl or python style? 13:01:17 Python, obviously 13:01:29 example: single regexp with multiple expression @ https://github.com/w3c/csvw/blob/gh-pages/examples/csv-metadata-and-template-for-simple-weather-obs-example.md#single-regexp-extracting-array-of-values 13:01:44 Jena <= 2.11.X java6 , Jena >= 2.12.X Java7 13:02:10 example: multiple regexp each grabbing single element: https://github.com/w3c/csvw/blob/gh-pages/examples/csv-metadata-and-template-for-simple-weather-obs-example.md#multiple-regexp-each-extracting-single-value 13:02:40 or PHP 13:03:59 rgrp has left #csvw 13:05:13 Looks like python lost -- (?REGEXP) ... and not for XLST 13:07:30 I don't understand wanting std templating then introducing regexp features. 13:09:17 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:09:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/25-csvw-minutes.html ivan 13:14:58 danbri has joined #csvw 15:10:34 Zakim has left #csvw 15:20:18 ivan has left #csvw 15:20:47 ivan has joined #csvw 15:20:57 rrsagent, bye 15:20:57 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/25-csvw-actions.rdf : 15:20:57 ACTION: danbri draft blog post [1] 15:20:57 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/25-csvw-irc#T12-10-59