12:56:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
12:56:33 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-svg-irc
12:56:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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12:56:37 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
12:56:37 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG()9:00AM already started
12:56:38 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
12:56:38 <trackbot> Date: 19 June 2014
12:57:11 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Jun/0062.html
12:59:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
12:59:38 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
12:59:38 <Zakim> +ed; got it
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13:00:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:00:17 <birtles> Zakim, [ is me
13:00:17 <Zakim> +birtles; got it
13:00:37 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
13:00:38 <Zakim> +??P3
13:00:42 <nikos_> Zakim, ??P3 is me
13:00:42 <Zakim> +nikos_; got it
13:00:44 <ed> chair: ed
13:00:53 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:00:58 <heycam> Zakim: [ is me
13:00:58 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
13:01:18 <Zakim> +??P6
13:01:30 <stakagi> zakim, ??P6 is me
13:01:30 <Zakim> +stakagi; got it
13:01:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
13:02:07 <cabanier> zakim, [IPcalles is me
13:02:07 <Zakim> sorry, cabanier, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcalles'
13:02:12 <Zakim> +ChrisL
13:02:15 <cabanier> zakim, [IPcaller is me
13:02:15 <Zakim> sorry, cabanier, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller'
13:02:37 <cabanier> zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me
13:02:37 <Zakim> +cabanier; got it
13:03:02 <nikos_> scribenick: nikos_
13:03:05 <nikos_> scribe: Nikos
13:03:17 <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
13:03:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see krit, ed, birtles, nikos_, [IPcaller], Doug_Schepers, stakagi, cabanier, ChrisL
13:03:25 <nikos_> Topic: Describe <cursor> in terms of cursor property, similar as HTML does for  <font>?
13:03:35 <nikos_> ed: Dirk you got a response on the ml. does it address the question?
13:03:38 <nikos_> krit: I think it does
13:04:54 <nikos_> ChrisL: url form wasn't widely implemented and tended to be platform specific. We wanted to support standard graphics format. At the time there wasn't an x and y on the cursor property. So we added an element that allowed x and y to be specified
13:04:59 <Zakim> +Tav
13:05:10 <nikos_> ChrisL: since then x and y was added to the property, but spec wasn't updated
13:05:20 <nikos_> ... picked up recently
13:05:41 <nikos_> ... current definition in CSS means we probably don't need cursor element in SVG
13:05:54 <nikos_> ... I was making tests today
13:06:07 <nikos_> ... from my testing IE still only supports .cur files and nothing else
13:06:18 <nikos_> ... FF supports png with x and y but x and y must be < 32
13:06:23 <nikos_> ... which isn't in the spec
13:06:32 <nikos_> ... and there needs to be a fall back or image won't be displaed
13:06:37 <nikos_> ... need to test on other browsers
13:06:49 <nikos_> ... I sent to the zip to the mailing list
13:07:01 <nikos_> ... I'm hoping that we can drop the element from SVG
13:07:11 <nikos_> heycam: Do you know what implementation status is of cursor element?
13:07:20 <nikos_> ChrisL: you'd need to look at the 1.1 test suite
13:07:24 <nikos_> ... we did have tests for that
13:07:32 <nikos_> ... including a test for a raster file
13:07:53 <nikos_> ... we have a direction here but not enough data to make a decision right now
13:08:02 <nikos_> krit: webkit do support property and the element
13:08:12 <nikos_> ... and are using kind of the same code path with the exception of the SVG DOM
13:08:27 <nikos_> s/webkit do support/webkit and blink do support/
13:08:53 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Jun/0079.html <-- tests are attached to here
13:09:22 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Test/20110816/harness/htmlObjectApproved/interact-cursor-01-f.html
13:09:29 <ThomasSmailus> FYI, I'm on chat only.
13:09:35 <nikos_> heycam: I just dropped a link to test in 1.1 test suite
13:09:44 <nikos_> ... the relevant one is the bottom right rectangle
13:09:54 <nikos_> ... just tried in FF and Chrome and it's showing the fallback
13:10:00 <nikos_> krit: does work in webkit
13:10:25 <nikos_> ... not sure why it doesn't work in Chrome
13:11:14 <nikos_> ChrisL: I think it disappears on the middle spot because it's an anchor
13:11:42 <nikos_> ... probably not a great test because the image looks like a standard cursor
13:11:57 <nikos_> krit: a crosshair means the test is not passing
13:12:00 <nikos_> ... the image is something else
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13:12:18 <nikos_> ... should be a magnifying glass
13:12:25 <nikos_> krit: I don't think the cursor element is very popular anyway
13:12:33 <nikos_> ed: do we want to resolve on anything now?
13:12:39 <nikos_> ... or wait for more testing?
13:12:56 <nikos_> krit: I don't want to deprecate it, I just want it to be the same as the cursor property
13:13:17 <nikos_> ChrisL: I don't see anything to change in the spec unless we decide to delete the whole element
13:13:23 <nikos_> ... which might be a long term goal
13:13:37 <nikos_> shepazu: one thing we could change - cursor property requires you point to a cursor element
13:13:45 <nikos_> ... we could allow it to point to an arbitrary element in svg
13:13:50 <nikos_> ChrisL: how would that help?
13:14:04 <nikos_> heycam: currently the cursor element doesn't allow graphical elements inside it
13:14:06 <nikos_> ... requires href
13:14:36 <nikos_> ChrisL: given property allows the hotspot to be set I don't think we need this element at all
13:14:38 <nikos_> ed: I agree
13:14:48 <nikos_> ChrisL: and it should be possible to point to some svg fragment
13:15:24 <nikos_> krit: css3 ui spec I think only allows images
13:15:33 <nikos_> ChrisL: it's a uri and svg is an image
13:15:51 <nikos_> krit: I'm saying the css 3 ui spec doesn't allow a cursor property to reference a cursor element
13:15:56 <nikos_> ChrisL: can you give a reference in the spec?
13:16:04 <nikos_> ChrisL: <quotes spec>
13:16:24 <nikos_> ChrisL: seems to allow referencing the cursor element
13:16:33 <nikos_> heycam: it's a bit wishy washy though
13:17:00 <nikos_> ChrisL: it just mentions resource... doesn't have to be a raster
13:17:33 <nikos_> ... so do people agree we should do more testing and long term remove the element?
13:17:35 <nikos_> krit: yes and yes
13:17:45 <ThomasSmailus> remove which element?
13:17:51 <nikos_> ChrisL: I also think we should be pushing for png to be used more widely as the raster format
13:18:36 <ChrisL> and svg as the vector format
13:18:59 <nikos_> Topic: Last Call for Geometry Interfaces
13:19:06 <krit> http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/geometry/
13:19:17 <nikos_> krit: This spec is mostly unchanged
13:19:21 <ChrisL> has there been much review?
13:19:26 <ThomasSmailus> If the cursor property completely replicates the cursor element, then its ok with me; we (for techincal diagram applications) need the ability to change the cursor in the image, to reflect a 'state' the SVG diagram is in.
13:19:28 <nikos_> ... there were some changes in the naming translateBy -> translateSelf
13:19:31 <ChrisL> implementations?
13:19:33 <nikos_> ... it's more descriptive
13:19:39 <nikos_> ... changes in is2D()
13:19:49 <nikos_> ... the rest stayed unchanged with some bug fixes
13:19:54 <nikos_> ... the editors think it's ready for LC
13:19:58 <heycam> ThomasSmailus, yes, the cursor property should be able to do everything you need without the need for the <cursor> element as well
13:20:02 <nikos_> ChrisL: is there any implementation and have you had much review?
13:20:15 <nikos_> ... I saw fantasai say it was going to fast
13:20:34 <nikos_> ... so have people looked at it ?
13:20:42 <nikos_> krit: FireFox implements most parts of it
13:20:50 <nikos_> ... and source code was reviewed
13:20:57 <nikos_> ... I'm looking at implementing in WebKit
13:21:11 <nikos_> ... we've created a test suite and published initial tests
13:21:12 <ChrisL> in that case, +1 to LastCall now
13:21:15 <nikos_> ... will publish more tomorrow
13:21:41 <nikos_> heycam: I haven't looked since last week
13:21:48 <nikos_> ... but I assume you made changes we discussed?
13:21:50 <nikos_> krit: I did
13:22:02 <nikos_> ed: I sent one comment which needs to be addressed. But not opposed to going to LC
13:22:21 <nikos_> krit: I think your comment needs to be addressed more in the context of SVG
13:22:27 <nikos_> ... we can talk about it next week
13:22:52 <nikos_> heycam: in IDL for DomRectList I think you shouldn't use Array class there
13:23:16 <nikos_> ... we need to overhaul how they will work in the DOM
13:23:21 <nikos_> ... so you should hold of using for the moment
13:23:35 <nikos_> krit:  what are the issues?
13:23:41 <nikos_> heycam: makes an object that is kind of like an array but not quite
13:23:49 <nikos_> ... and I think most are opposed to the idea
13:24:39 <nikos_> ... so just remove [Array Class] on DOMRectList interface for now
13:24:56 <nikos_> krit: I'll do that before publishing then
13:25:50 <nikos_> ... Mozilla currently implements with [Array Class]
13:25:55 <nikos_> ... hopefully they can change
13:27:23 <nikos_> RESOLUTION: Publish Geometry Interfaces Last Call pending removal of [Array Class]
13:27:46 <nikos_> ChrisL: we also need CSS WG to make a decision as well right?
13:27:48 <nikos_> krit: yes
13:27:51 <heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jun/0233.html
13:28:05 <nikos_> Topic: Should altGlyph's xlink:href be restricted to document-local references?
13:28:17 <nikos_> ed: this came up in a discussion about referencing
13:28:25 <nikos_> ... and going over which svg elements can reference external content
13:28:38 <nikos_> ... Anne is fixing up some fetching stuff
13:28:44 <nikos_> ... we weren't sure about this element
13:29:07 <nikos_> krit: working on fetching model for svg that can be used on all elements.
13:29:15 <ed> s/stuff/spec hooks for svg/
13:29:37 <nikos_> ... Erik noted that he wants to be able to select an element from a document using a url fragment
13:29:46 <nikos_> ... and wants to support this for css image
13:30:05 <nikos_> ... there is the question of what security model do you have in place of objects referencing outside the document
13:30:29 <nikos_> ... we want to have the same model for resources of image
13:30:46 <nikos_> ... elements could cross reference other elements from other documents. FF does this already.
13:30:58 <nikos_> ... as Erik pointed out some elements can only reference within the document
13:31:13 <nikos_> ... this restriction does not apply in FireFox
13:31:24 <nikos_> ... we think we can do the same fetching model for resources and images for all elements
13:31:32 <nikos_> ... so all elements could reference outside of the current document
13:31:38 <nikos_> ... would make spec much simpler and unify implementations
13:31:55 <nikos_> ... my point is that we should not force elements to just reference within the same doc
13:32:05 <nikos_> ChrisL: I agree that's a good idea
13:32:16 <nikos_> ... in svg we didn't use bare fragment identifiers
13:32:28 <nikos_> ... we made it a uri so if it was restricted in one version it was easy to update
13:32:45 <nikos_> ... overall I think the decision of whether it points inside a doc or not was a bit arbitrary
13:32:56 <nikos_> ... so in general I think your plan is a good one
13:33:11 <nikos_> ed: my question about altGlyph in particular is because we removed SVG fonts from SVG 2
13:33:16 <nikos_> ... makes it a bit difficult to use altGlyph
13:33:31 <nikos_> ... multiple steps will be required to do what you want
13:33:35 <nikos_> ... doesn't seem like good design
13:33:41 <nikos_> heycam: do we want to keep altGlyph around?
13:33:45 <nikos_> ... does anyone implement it ?
13:33:59 <nikos_> ChrisL: in some sense CSS fonts has replaced it
13:34:06 <nikos_> ... think that's a better way to go than altGlyph
13:34:08 <nikos_> heycam: I agree
13:34:25 <nikos_> ... we had a discussion in Sydney talking about a replacement feature for specific glyphs of a font
13:34:33 <nikos_> ... and all the issues you'd have with the x and y list of numbers
13:34:43 <nikos_> ... if we had that feature at some point in the future
13:34:53 <nikos_> ... then I think that would be the way to go
13:35:04 <nikos_> shepazu: some people are using altGlyph - we got an email from decotype
13:35:18 <nikos_> ... who are using it to render arabic glyphs in a way that is combinatorial in arabic
13:35:25 <nikos_> ... which you can't do in the font file
13:35:31 <nikos_> ChrisL: yeah
13:35:37 <nikos_> ... the way they're doing it you can't do in opentype
13:36:08 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Jan/0039.html
13:36:52 <nikos_> ChrisL: there does need to be a way to say use glyph index xxx
13:36:59 <nikos_> ... it's not clear that CSS3 lets you do that
13:37:13 <nikos_> ... say this particular span of text uses these specific glyphs
13:37:56 <nikos_> heycam: going back to the external reference. I think it makes sense to allow most of those things to load up an external document
13:38:01 <nikos_> ... but I'm wondering about the animation element?
13:38:10 <nikos_> ... should that be allowed to target a resource document?
13:38:18 <nikos_> krit: they could. the question is what happens?
13:38:32 <nikos_> ... we'd need to specify what happens when an external document is referenced
13:38:36 <nikos_> ... could just make it have no effect
13:38:45 <nikos_> heycam: but you'd still need to fetch which is the important thing
13:38:58 <nikos_> ... I think it would be ok to do that
13:39:43 <nikos_> ed: I'm not against allowing altGlyph to reference externally but I think we should consider a better method of supporting that functionality
13:39:55 <nikos_> heycam: I don't think anyone implements it
13:39:56 <ChrisL> opera presto did. Not the blink based one though
13:40:09 <nikos_> ed: Opera Presto did but only for SVG glyphs
13:40:27 <nikos_> ... I'm happy to create some tests to verify
13:40:47 <nikos_> heycam: if we think it's the right thing to do then it would be good to demonstrate that it's not implmement
13:41:02 <nikos_> ... I think we want a replacement for altGlyph at some piont
13:41:06 <nikos_> s/piont/point
13:41:39 <nikos_> action: Erik to write tests to determine whether altGlyph is implemented
13:41:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3631 - Write tests to determine whether altglyph is implemented [on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-06-26].
13:41:58 <nikos_> Topic: How should the following two SVGPathElement methods work when there's no  path data?
13:42:16 <nikos_> ed: these methods don't describe what to do if there is no path data
13:42:24 <nikos_> ChrisL: is it feasible to raise an exception or return NaN?
13:42:43 <nikos_> ed: it's possible but not spec'ed. THe methods don't currently throw
13:42:58 <ChrisL> 404 Path Not Found
13:43:29 <heycam> null or NaN?
13:43:35 <nikos_> krit: were there concerns on the mailing list about returning NaN?
13:43:36 <heycam> new DOMPoint(NaN, NaN)
13:44:14 <nikos_> heycam: some people like NaN because the function can keep going
13:44:24 <nikos_> ... others prefer it to stop working immediately and not continue with arithmetic
13:44:27 <ChrisL> new NyanCat (Nan, Nan, Nan, Nan, Nan, Nan, Nan, Nan, Nan, Nan, Nan)
13:44:31 <nikos_> krit: alternative is to throw an exception
13:45:02 <nikos_> heycam: I think throwing exception and returning null are pretty similar in terms of the function stopping because most won't check for null return values
13:45:42 <ed> for reference, the two methods being discussed: getPointAtLength and getPathSegAtLength
13:46:04 <nikos_> heycam: I'm talking about the one that returns a DomPoint
13:46:13 <nikos_> ... getPointAtLength
13:46:33 <nikos_> ... Erik did you check what implementations do at the moment?
13:46:35 <nikos_> ed: no
13:47:20 <nikos_> cabanier: getPathSegAtLength should return a number and getPointAtLength should return null
13:47:32 <nikos_> s/return a number/return NaN
13:48:22 <nikos_> krit: In WebKit we return 0 for getPathSegAtLength and (0,0) for getPointAtLength
13:48:27 <nikos_> ... think Blink would be the same
13:48:52 <nikos_> heycam: we were talking about bounding boxes recently and for elements with no geometry did we decide to return a (0,0,0,0) bounding box?
13:48:55 <nikos_> nikos: we did
13:49:11 <nikos_> heycam: so maybe we should be consistent with that?
13:49:17 <nikos_> cabanier: it feels different to that
13:49:45 <Zakim> -krit
13:50:01 <nikos_> heycam: I don't have a strong opinion on this but would like to know if there's consensus among implementations
13:50:27 <nikos_> cabanier: Mozilla throws an exception I think
13:50:43 <Zakim> +krit
13:51:39 <nikos_> krit: that should change
13:51:50 <heycam> http://mcc.id.au/temp/p.svg
13:51:51 <nikos_> krit: would getPathSegAtLength throw?
13:52:07 <nikos_> heycam: here's a test
13:52:58 <heycam> Firefox - exception, 2**32-1
13:53:47 <nikos_> krit: it seems we have different behaviour across browsers
13:53:50 <nikos_> ... can someone test IE?
13:54:40 <ed> opera presto says "undefined" for getPathSegAtLength
13:55:05 <nikos_> nikos: unexpected call to property or method on IE10
13:55:22 <nikos_> krit: getPathSegAtLength returns 0 on IE
13:55:39 <nikos_> heycam: so everyone is slightly different
13:55:47 <nikos_> ed: I think returning DomPoint(0,0) and 0 would be fine
13:55:51 <nikos_> krit: I don't mind
13:56:19 <nikos_> ChrisL: if you return that how can you tell the difference missing path data or a valid index?
13:56:29 <nikos_> heycam: you could try to index into the pathSegList
13:56:40 <nikos_> ... is it a common enough that that we need to worry about it?
13:57:24 <nikos_> ed: is there an agreement on what should happen? should we take it to the list?
13:57:30 <nikos_> krit: take it to the list and pick it up next week?
13:57:32 <krit> http://www.w3.org/TR/css-masking-1/
13:57:36 <nikos_> Topic: Publish CR for CSS Masking
13:57:46 <nikos_> krit: there hasn't been feedback for four weeks and LC period ended today
13:57:50 <nikos_> ChrisL: no comments at all?
13:57:56 <nikos_> ... was there actually a review?
13:58:08 <nikos_> krit: we got a lot of comments in the first LC and on the working draft
13:58:12 <nikos_> ... but no comments on recent LC
13:58:21 <nikos_> ChrisL: sounds fine then. You can go to CR in that case
13:58:49 <nikos_> RESOLUTION: Publish CSS Masking CR
13:59:14 <Zakim> -birtles
13:59:21 <nikos_> RRSAgent, make minutes
13:59:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-svg-minutes.html nikos_
13:59:24 <Zakim> -krit
13:59:27 <Zakim> -ed
13:59:31 <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
13:59:31 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been krit, [IPcaller], ed, birtles, nikos_, Doug_Schepers, stakagi, ChrisL, cabanier, Tav
13:59:35 <Zakim> -Tav
13:59:36 <Zakim> -stakagi
13:59:37 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
13:59:40 <Zakim> -cabanier
13:59:41 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
13:59:42 <Zakim> -ChrisL
13:59:52 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
13:59:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/19-svg-minutes.html ChrisL
14:05:00 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, nikos_, in GA_SVGWG()9:00AM
14:05:02 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()9:00AM has ended
14:05:02 <Zakim> Attendees were krit, [IPcaller], ed, birtles, nikos_, Doug_Schepers, stakagi, ChrisL, cabanier, Tav
14:08:35 <krit> heycam|away: could you reply to Anne please? Especially, about the GitHub part ;)
14:08:52 <krit> heycam|away: (actually mostly about the GitHub part :P)
14:43:26 <ed> http://hgtip.com/tips/advanced/2009-11-09-create-a-git-mirror/ seems like something we could potentially setup
14:44:58 <krit> ed++
14:47:18 <krit> ed: does that mirror GitHub or the other way around??
14:49:39 <ed> krit: it mirrors a hg repo to git(hub), it assumes users of hg has hg-git installed I think, so we would need that on svgwg.org
14:54:16 <krit> ed: but pull requests won't work?
14:56:41 <ed> pull requests will work, but they need some manual work on our side to pull them in AFAICT (see "Accepting contributions" at the bottom of that article)
14:57:55 <krit> ed: we would need to add every contributor manually?
14:59:17 <ed> krit: yeah, looks that way... though the article is a few years old :)
15:00:27 <krit> ed: indeed
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