IRC log of dnt on 2014-06-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:06:38 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #dnt
15:06:38 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/18-dnt-irc
15:06:40 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
15:06:42 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be TRACK
15:06:42 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM scheduled to start in 54 minutes
15:06:43 [trackbot]: Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group Teleconference
15:06:43 [trackbot]: Date: 18 June 2014
15:07:14 [ninja]: agenda?
15:07:34 [ninja]: regrets: carlcargill, wseltzer
15:07:38 [ninja]: chair: justin
15:15:44 [ninja]: regrets+ susanisrael
15:55:18 [eberkower]: eberkower has joined #dnt
15:56:37 [npdoty]: npdoty has joined #dnt
15:57:01 [ninja]: zakim, call ninja-office
15:57:02 [Zakim]: ok, ninja; the call is being made
15:57:02 [Zakim]: T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has now started
15:57:04 [Zakim]: +Ninja
15:57:54 [justin]: justin has joined #dnt
15:58:26 [JackHobaugh]: JackHobaugh has joined #dnt
15:59:01 [Chris_M]: Chris_M has joined #dnt
15:59:25 [Zakim]: + +1.646.654.aaaa
15:59:36 [eberkower]: Zakim, aaaa is eberkower
15:59:36 [Zakim]: +eberkower; got it
15:59:42 [Zakim]: +Jack_Hobaugh
15:59:49 [Zakim]: +Chris_Pedigo
15:59:54 [eberkower]: Zakim, mute me, please
15:59:55 [Zakim]: eberkower should now be muted
15:59:56 [Alan_]: Alan_ has joined #dnt
16:00:02 [Zakim]: +Chris_IAB
16:00:10 [Chris_M]: just joined the call
16:00:15 [Zakim]: + +1.323.253.aabb
16:00:43 [sidstamm]: sidstamm has joined #dnt
16:00:50 [Zakim]: +npdoty
16:01:06 [Zakim]: + +1.303.954.aacc
16:01:10 [ninja]: zakim, aabb is Ari
16:01:10 [Zakim]: +Ari; got it
16:01:38 [Zakim]: +kulick
16:01:39 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:01:42 [vinay]: vinay has joined #dnt
16:01:43 [walter]: zakim, IPcaller is me
16:01:43 [Zakim]: +walter; got it
16:01:58 [ninja]: zakim, aacc is Alan_IAB
16:01:58 [Zakim]: +Alan_IAB; got it
16:02:17 [Zakim]: +RichardWeaver
16:02:21 [Zakim]: + +1.408.536.aadd
16:02:22 [ninja]: zakim, who is here?
16:02:24 [Richard_comScore]: Richard_comScore has joined #dnt
16:02:24 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Ninja, eberkower (muted), Jack_Hobaugh, Chris_Pedigo, Chris_IAB, Ari, npdoty, Alan_IAB, kulick, walter, RichardWeaver, +1.408.536.aadd
16:02:24 [Zakim]: On IRC I see vinay, sidstamm, Alan_, Chris_M, JackHobaugh, justin, npdoty, eberkower, RRSAgent, ninja, Zakim, hober, walter, trackbot, wseltzer
16:02:26 [vinay]: zakim, aadd is vinay
16:02:26 [Zakim]: +vinay; got it
16:02:38 [dsinger]: dsinger has joined #dnt
16:02:49 [ChrisPedigoOPA]: ChrisPedigoOPA has joined #dnt
16:02:59 [justin]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:03:00 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Ninja, eberkower (muted), Jack_Hobaugh, Chris_Pedigo, Chris_IAB, Ari, npdoty, Alan_IAB, kulick, walter, RichardWeaver, vinay
16:03:07 [Zakim]: +[CDT]
16:03:11 [justin]: zakim, cdt has me
16:03:12 [Zakim]: +justin; got it
16:03:19 [Zakim]: +[Apple]
16:03:20 [dsinger]: zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:03:20 [Brooks]: Brooks has joined #dnt
16:03:20 [Zakim]: +dsinger; got it
16:03:25 [ninja]: zakim, pick a scribe
16:03:25 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose [CDT]
16:03:27 [Zakim]: +Brooks
16:03:46 [Zakim]: +hefferjr
16:03:48 [johnsimpson]: johnsimpson has joined #dnt
16:03:51 [npdoty]: scribenick: npdoty
16:04:32 [npdoty]: justin: 5 issues to go over today
16:04:35 [Zakim]: +[Mozilla]
16:04:38 [sidstamm]: Zakim, Mozilla has me
16:04:38 [Zakim]: +sidstamm; got it
16:04:39 [npdoty]: ... today is the end of the Last Call comments period
16:04:51 [npdoty]: ... chairs meeting to talk about how to sort through comments/objections/concerns
16:04:54 [WileyS]: WileyS has joined #dnt
16:05:03 [Zakim]: +johnsimpson
16:05:04 [ninja]: zakim, take up agendum 1
16:05:05 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Data Append and First Parties - Announcement of CfO" taken up [from ninja]
16:05:10 [npdoty]: ... in the meantime, working on compliance issues (not all that many left)
16:05:11 [Zakim]: +WileyS
16:05:16 [justin]: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Privacy/TPWG/Change_Proposal_First_Party_Compliance
16:05:38 [npdoty]: justin: first-party compliance has been under discussion for a while
16:05:40 [ninja]: Call for Objections starting today
16:05:47 [npdoty]: ... will go to Call for Objections starting today
16:05:58 [npdoty]: ... 1) vinay (susan israel, others): doesn't limit append
16:06:24 [npdoty]: ... 2) john simpson (mike): can't combine with other @@ data
16:06:31 [moneill2]: moneill2 has joined #dnt
16:06:41 [npdoty]: ... have delineated the options, which are now clear, send out for Call for Objections tonight
16:06:42 [justin]: q?
16:06:55 [justin]: zakim, who is making noise?
16:06:59 [npdoty]: ... we've been doing well in avoiding having to go to Call for Objections, but in some cases may be inevitable
16:07:07 [Zakim]: justin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [CDT] (45%), johnsimpson (14%)
16:07:12 [Chris_M]: someone put us on hold
16:07:16 [npdoty]: Zakim, mute johnsimpson
16:07:16 [Zakim]: johnsimpson should now be muted
16:07:35 [ninja]: zakim, take up agendum 2
16:07:35 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Context Separation" taken up [from ninja]
16:07:48 [justin]: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Privacy/TPWG/Change_Proposal_Limitations_on_use_in_Third_Party_Context#Proposal_.282.29:_Prohibit_use_of_data_collected_as_any_type_of_party
16:08:06 [npdoty]: justin: context separation we've been discussing a lot, we're close but wanted to check one more time whether there were changes or additional options
16:08:07 [Zakim]: +Peder_Magee
16:08:08 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:08:25 [npdoty]: ... the first would be no limitation at all on use of data that was collected as a first party
16:08:34 [moneill2]: zakim, [IPCaller] is me
16:08:34 [Zakim]: +moneill2; got it
16:08:57 [npdoty]: ... Walter's proposal limits use of data collected from previous network interactions
16:09:03 [magee]: magee has joined #dnt
16:09:12 [justin]: q?
16:09:15 [npdoty]: ... these proposals are pretty solidified now, but: ask questions, propose friendly amendments
16:09:23 [ninja]: zakim, take up agendum 3
16:09:23 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "Data Minimization" taken up [from ninja]
16:09:38 [justin]: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Privacy/TPWG/Change_Proposals_on_data_minimization
16:09:39 [npdoty]: justin: third issue is data minimization
16:10:06 [npdoty]: current section http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/drafts/tracking-compliance.html#data-minimization-and-transparency
16:10:32 [johnsimpson]: Apologies,sorry about my phone. I screwed up..
16:10:49 [johnsimpson]: q+
16:10:53 [npdoty]: justin: mike's proposal (additional revisions not yet on the wiki?) regarding persistent identifers
16:11:07 [npdoty]: ack johnsimpson
16:11:45 [npdoty]: johnsimpson: status on issue-170? going to call for objections on that?
16:12:18 [moneill2]: my skype conncetion is bad, I will ring back
16:12:25 [npdoty]: justin: yes, different groups on that. options are now precise. will announce call for objections later today
16:12:29 [Zakim]: -moneill2
16:12:31 [npdoty]: johnsimpson: thanks.
16:13:21 [ninja]: zakim, who is here?
16:13:21 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Ninja, eberkower (muted), Jack_Hobaugh, Chris_Pedigo, Chris_IAB, Ari, npdoty, Alan_IAB, kulick, walter, RichardWeaver, vinay, [CDT], [Apple], Brooks, hefferjr,
16:13:25 [Zakim]: ... [Mozilla], johnsimpson, WileyS, Peder_Magee
16:13:25 [Zakim]: [Apple] has dsinger
16:13:25 [Zakim]: [CDT] has justin
16:13:25 [Zakim]: [Mozilla] has sidstamm
16:13:25 [Zakim]: On IRC I see magee, moneill2, WileyS, johnsimpson, Brooks, ChrisPedigoOPA, dsinger, Richard_comScore, vinay, sidstamm, Alan_, Chris_M, JackHobaugh, justin, npdoty, eberkower,
16:13:26 [Zakim]: ... RRSAgent, ninja, Zakim, hober, walter, trackbot, wseltzer
16:13:31 [npdoty]: justin: roy had objected to the technical language of mike's proposal, but neither fielding nor mike on the call at this moment, so maybe follow up on mailing list
16:13:48 [npdoty]: ... haven't heard additional proposals that would provide more flexibility. if you want to propose language, please feel free
16:13:49 [justin]: q?
16:13:51 [npdoty]: q+
16:14:01 [Zakim]: +??P31
16:14:33 [ninja]: justin, I think Mike just re-joined the call
16:14:38 [moneill2]: zakim,P31 is me
16:14:38 [Zakim]: sorry, moneill2, I do not recognize a party named 'P31'
16:14:52 [ninja]: zakim, ??P31 is moneill2
16:14:52 [Zakim]: +moneill2; got it
16:15:05 [ChrisPedigoOPA]: q+
16:15:08 [moneill2]: ninja, thanks
16:15:13 [justin]: ack npd
16:15:16 [npdoty]: npdoty: issue-233 was a proposal from Jack to use language of minimized rather than limited
16:15:24 [npdoty]: q-
16:15:32 [justin]: ack chris
16:15:35 [npdoty]: justin: might be editorial, can just go ahead with it.
16:15:58 [JackHobaugh]: I don’t have any more to offer than what is already stated in Issue-233
16:16:11 [JackHobaugh]: q+
16:16:19 [justin]: ack jack
16:16:44 [npdoty]: npd: current language doesn't specify a type of party, so I don't think that would be a change
16:16:55 [npdoty]: ChrisPedigoOPA: would be concerned about making it party-neutral
16:17:50 [npdoty]: JackHobaugh: agree that "minimized" is just editorial. regarding party-neutral I think it already just talks about "a party" so I'm not sure why it was limited to third parties
16:18:06 [npdoty]: q+
16:18:09 [walter]: q+
16:19:23 [npdoty]: justin: it's within Third Party Compliance section
16:19:36 [npdoty]: JackHobaugh: could throw it open to the WG for suggestions
16:19:47 [justin]: ack npd
16:19:49 [npdoty]: ChrisPedigoOPA: would be a simple change to add third-party if that's what it meant anyway
16:20:26 [justin]: npdoty: This is about permitted uses, so it should be pretty clear that this only applies to third parties.
16:21:40 [Chris_M]: AUS 1 NED 1
16:21:50 [npdoty]: justin: nick could take a look again regarding textual ambiguity
16:21:58 [npdoty]: ... or if someone has a proposal to make it more clear, that would be welcome
16:22:06 [npdoty]: ... seems like we're all agreed on what's intended
16:22:31 [justin]: q?
16:22:31 [npdoty]: action: doty to update data minimization section regarding minimized/limited and clarity about when it applies
16:22:32 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-453 - Update data minimization section regarding minimized/limited and clarity about when it applies [on Nick Doty - due 2014-06-25].
16:22:41 [npdoty]: ack walter
16:22:50 [Zakim]: -Alan_IAB
16:23:34 [npdoty]: walter: because we're talking about permitted uses, clear that it's a third party issue. proportionality of data use would make sense for first party even though we wouldn't interpret that as applying to first parties
16:24:11 [ChrisPedigoOPA]: I'll propose some language
16:24:38 [npdoty]: justin: would be great for first parties to apply minimization/proportionality, but discussion is about clarity of this section
16:24:42 [ninja]: zakim, take up agendum 4
16:24:42 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "Use of "tracking" in third party compliance" taken up [from ninja]
16:24:49 [justin]: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Privacy/TPWG/Change_Proposal_Tracking_Third_Party_Compliance
16:25:02 [npdoty]: justin: haven't talked about this in great detail, but came up via fielding on the mailing list
16:25:22 [npdoty]: ... have defined "tracking" but not really using it within TCS
16:25:24 [ninja]: ISSUE-203: Use of "tracking" in third-party compliance https://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/203
16:25:24 [trackbot]: Notes added to ISSUE-203 Use of "tracking" in third-party compliance.
16:25:49 [dsinger]: zakim, agenda?
16:25:49 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:25:50 [Zakim]: 1. Data Append and First Parties - Announcement of CfO [from ninja]
16:25:50 [Zakim]: 2. Context Separation [from ninja]
16:25:50 [Zakim]: 3. Data Minimization [from ninja]
16:25:50 [Zakim]: 4. Use of "tracking" in third party compliance [from ninja]
16:25:50 [Zakim]: 5. Link shorteners/ID providers [from ninja]
16:25:56 [Ari]: Ari has joined #dnt
16:26:43 [npdoty]: justin: dsinger had a proposal about referring to "tracking information"
16:26:44 [Zakim]: -Ari
16:27:05 [npdoty]: ... fielding had a proposal to instead describe exactly which tracking status values should be used
16:27:18 [Zakim]: +Ari
16:27:27 [dsinger]: yikes, I wrote this a year ago!
16:27:27 [justin]: q?
16:27:52 [npdoty]: ... is it possible to combine these two? or iterate?
16:28:10 [Zakim]: -moneill2
16:28:20 [justin]: q?
16:28:33 [ninja]: zakim, take up agendum 5
16:28:33 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "Link shorteners/ID providers" taken up [from ninja]
16:28:43 [npdoty]: ... can discuss on the mailing list, rather than putting dsinger on the spot right now
16:28:46 [dsinger]: yes, I think we can easily merge these two
16:28:47 [justin]: https://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/97
16:29:19 [npdoty]: (dsinger, I had preferred your original proposal; generally I like having the extra detail in this document to elaborate on our one sentence definition of tracking)
16:29:21 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:29:34 [moneill2]: zakim, [IPCaller] is me
16:29:34 [Zakim]: +moneill2; got it
16:30:03 [npdoty]: justin: link shorteners/trackers -- how does this apply to them? if I click on a bit.ly link, what kind of party is the provider to an interaction?
16:30:19 [dsinger]: well, either the link shortener is the first and the final target a third, or vice versa? The user will not typically be aware of one of (a) that a link shortener is in use or (b) where the link shortener will actually go.
16:30:28 [npdoty]: ... I've previously argued that users are trying to get to the end page
16:30:36 [justin]: q?
16:30:36 [dsinger]: q+
16:30:37 [WileyS]: Its very clear to a user they are about to click through their service if the URL is visible - nothing forces the user to click through to see their NY Times article.
16:31:04 [npdoty]: ... Ian Fette previously had suggested otherwise (perhaps supported by Shane)
16:31:09 [justin]: ack ds
16:31:36 [npdoty]: dsinger: user is either unaware of where the link shortener goes to (clicked on bit.ly, don't know the end point)
16:31:41 [Zakim]: +Susan_Israel
16:32:01 [npdoty]: ... or alternatively, knows they're going to NYT (via anchor text) and wasn't aware of the link shortener
16:32:05 [WileyS]: Crazy to me that people trust link shortners - but they are clearly the initial 1st party in the most common context
16:32:10 [npdoty]: ... informative text along these lines?
16:32:48 [npdoty]: q+
16:32:53 [moneill2]: yest another thorny issue resulting from 1p/3p
16:33:38 [dsinger]: yes, the 3rd/1st split might have been a mistake, but by the time we realized, the majority felt we were too far down that road
16:34:03 [justin]: Well, it's about user intent, which isn't solved by just getting rid of 1p/3p distinction.
16:34:18 [susanisrael]: susanisrael has joined #dnt
16:34:33 [npdoty]: q-
16:34:49 [npdoty]: npdoty: when we discussed previously, I talked with some link shortener folks
16:35:02 [dsinger]: the point of getting rid of 1st/3rd would be precisely to getthe unmeasurable user intent out of the normative requirements...
16:35:06 [npdoty]: ... more common cases will be first party/service providers for either the home site or the destination site
16:35:06 [ninja]: q+
16:35:17 [justin]: ack ninja
16:35:41 [npdoty]: ... link shorteners that are somehow in the middle (no relation to either end) would not be part of an intentional interaction
16:35:58 [WileyS]: Agree on redirects
16:36:08 [WileyS]: +q
16:36:09 [npdoty]: ninja: this is also a part of a bundle of issues regarding identity providers. not sure it's the same on all redirects
16:36:17 [npdoty]: justin: what other redirects did you have in mind?
16:36:44 [susanisrael]: susanisrael has joined #dnt
16:36:44 [dsinger]: yes, intermediate redirects are clearly neither what I clicked on nor where I thought I was going. They are easy
16:36:46 [npdoty]: ninja: for example, if a site has several redirects across multiple parties, multiple link shorteners before arriving at a newspaper article
16:36:51 [walter]: q+
16:36:57 [justin]: ack wiley
16:36:58 [npdoty]: ack WileyS
16:37:00 [Zakim]: -Susan_Israel
16:37:40 [npdoty]: WileyS: search engine marketing companies are a common example here. clicking on a sponsored search result initially goes to the search engine; but sometimes an SEM before redirecting on to the advertiser
16:37:42 [Zakim]: +Susan_Israel
16:37:48 [npdoty]: ... in some cases that would be a service provider to the advertiser
16:38:26 [walter]: I might
16:38:29 [npdoty]: ... but aware of some cases where it might be a traditional third party, ad network that combines that data across different advertiser endpoints
16:38:30 [WileyS]: Not me
16:38:38 [justin]: ack walter
16:38:58 [npdoty]: justin: someone to write text to explain these situations?
16:39:07 [moneill2]: i could help walter
16:39:33 [npdoty]: walter: don't think users are aware of the link shortener based on the URL
16:40:05 [ninja]: justin, I will try to dig out your language
16:40:11 [justin]: q?
16:40:47 [npdoty]: justin: might be old language (from me or others) on issue-97 you can find
16:41:02 [npdoty]: ... haven't discussed in a while, it would be good to get text proposals
16:41:06 [npdoty]: q+
16:41:50 [ninja]: ISSUE-99: https://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/track/issues/99
16:41:50 [trackbot]: Notes added to ISSUE-99 How does DNT work with identity providers?.
16:42:06 [npdoty]: npdoty: I'm not aware of the specific use case for identity provider
16:42:52 [npdoty]: justin: if you're authenticated via a social network to a newspaper website
16:43:13 [walter]: I can see that
16:43:17 [walter]: As in, that makes sense
16:43:18 [justin]: q?
16:43:21 [npdoty]: ... if you're authenticating, seemed clear that would be a first-party involvement
16:43:21 [npdoty]: q-
16:43:51 [npdoty]: topic: aob
16:43:59 [Zakim]: -Ari
16:44:03 [npdoty]: justin: send some follow-up emails regarding proposals
16:44:13 [npdoty]: ... will send one Call for Objections later today
16:44:28 [Chris_M]: where's the link for last call on TPE?
16:44:31 [Zakim]: -RichardWeaver
16:44:33 [Zakim]: -Peder_Magee
16:44:33 [Zakim]: -kulick
16:44:33 [johnsimpson]: thanks
16:44:35 [Zakim]: -hefferjr
16:44:36 [Zakim]: -Chris_Pedigo
16:44:37 [Zakim]: -Susan_Israel
16:44:37 [Chris_M]: thanks
16:44:38 [johnsimpson]: johnsimpson has left #dnt
16:44:38 [Zakim]: -vinay
16:44:40 [Zakim]: -WileyS
16:44:40 [Zakim]: -walter
16:44:41 [Zakim]: -moneill2
16:44:41 [Zakim]: -[CDT]
16:44:42 [Zakim]: -[Mozilla]
16:44:42 [Zakim]: -Jack_Hobaugh
16:44:46 [Zakim]: -johnsimpson
16:44:47 [npdoty]: ... sounds like dsinger had possible updates on 203
16:44:54 [npdoty]: ... and walter to follow up regarding link shortening
16:44:55 [Zakim]: -Chris_IAB
16:44:57 [Zakim]: -[Apple]
16:45:05 [npdoty]: justin: reminder, please get Last Call comments on TPE in today
16:45:06 [justin]: ChrisM, provide comments to this email address: public-tracking-comments@w3.org
16:45:19 [npdoty]: ... thanks all
16:45:21 [ninja]: justin, npdoty, I take the action on me to get the CfO out today
16:45:26 [npdoty]: [adjourned]
16:45:33 [justin]: And here is the Last Call document: http://www.w3.org/TR/tracking-dnt/
16:45:38 [Zakim]: -npdoty
16:45:48 [npdoty]: Zakim, list attendees
16:45:48 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been Ninja, +1.646.654.aaaa, eberkower, Jack_Hobaugh, Chris_Pedigo, Chris_IAB, +1.323.253.aabb, npdoty, +1.303.954.aacc, Ari, kulick, walter,
16:45:51 [Zakim]: ... Alan_IAB, RichardWeaver, +1.408.536.aadd, vinay, justin, dsinger, Brooks, hefferjr, sidstamm, johnsimpson, WileyS, Peder_Magee, moneill2, Susan_Israel
16:45:55 [npdoty]: rrsagent, please draft the minutes
16:45:55 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/18-dnt-minutes.html npdoty
16:46:21 [npdoty]: rrsagent, bye
16:46:21 [RRSAgent]: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/18-dnt-actions.rdf :
16:46:21 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: doty to update data minimization section regarding minimized/limited and clarity about when it applies [1]
16:46:21 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/18-dnt-irc#T16-22-31-1