IRC log of chairing on 2014-06-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:00:32 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #chairing
07:00:32 [RRSAgent]
logging to
07:00:33 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #chairing
07:00:46 [koalie]
Zakim, this will be 24873
07:00:46 [Zakim]
ok, koalie; I see Team_ChTr()4:00AM scheduled to start in 60 minutes
07:01:37 [koalie]
koalie has changed the topic to: 17-Jun Chair Training: Human Dimension (chaals)
07:03:26 [chaals]
chaals has joined #chairing
07:23:38 [chaals]
07:23:54 [chaals]
agenda+ introductions (<1 min please)
07:24:16 [chaals]
agenda+ Group Dynamics - fatigue, timing
07:24:58 [chaals]
agenda+ The chair
07:25:42 [chaals]
agenda+ what if we reconsider… - decisions
07:27:12 [chaals]
agenda+ what next?
07:55:13 [nigel]
nigel has joined #chairing
07:57:25 [Zakim]
Team_ChTr()4:00AM has now started
07:57:32 [Zakim]
07:57:55 [chaals]
zakim, [ip is me
07:57:55 [Zakim]
+chaals; got it
07:58:17 [yosuke]
yosuke has joined #chairing
07:58:30 [Zakim]
07:59:08 [chaals]
Present+ Nigel
07:59:17 [chaals]
Chair: Chaals
07:59:35 [chaals]
rrsagent, make log public
07:59:40 [Zakim]
07:59:59 [kerry]
kerry has joined #chairing
08:00:01 [chaals]
zakim, ??p2 is Lisa
08:00:01 [Zakim]
+Lisa; got it
08:00:19 [LisaSeeman]
LisaSeeman has joined #chairing
08:00:20 [chaals]
Present+ Lisa
08:00:41 [koalie]
scribenick: koalie
08:00:49 [gmandyam]
gmandyam has joined #chairing
08:01:02 [Zakim]
08:01:03 [Andy]
Andy has joined #chairing
08:01:14 [xiaoqian]
xiaoqian has joined #chairing
08:01:23 [Zakim]
08:01:23 [koalie]
present+ 1-Coralie
08:01:48 [chaals]
zakim, [ip is yosuke
08:01:48 [Zakim]
+yosuke; got it
08:01:58 [xiaoqian]
zakim, call xiaoqian-mobile
08:01:58 [Zakim]
ok, xiaoqian; the call is being made
08:02:00 [Zakim]
08:02:02 [koalie]
present+ 1-Yosuke
08:02:12 [Zakim]
+ +
08:02:33 [chaals]
zakim, aaaa is Kerry
08:02:33 [Zakim]
+Kerry; got it
08:02:41 [chaals]
Present+ 1-Kerry
08:02:53 [Zakim]
08:03:03 [Zakim]
08:03:11 [koalie]
present+ 1-Giri
08:03:22 [Andy]
zakim, [IBM is me
08:03:22 [Zakim]
+Andy; got it
08:03:23 [LisaSeeman]
mute me
08:03:34 [chaals]
zakim, mute lisa
08:03:34 [Zakim]
Lisa should now be muted
08:05:18 [koalie]
present+ 1-Cindy
08:05:35 [koalie]
Zakim, agenda?
08:05:35 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
08:05:36 [Zakim]
1. introductions (<1 min please) [from chaals]
08:05:36 [Zakim]
2. Group Dynamics - fatigue, timing [from chaals]
08:05:36 [Zakim]
3. The chair [from chaals]
08:05:36 [Zakim]
4. what if we reconsider… - decisions [from chaals]
08:05:36 [Zakim]
5. what next? [from chaals]
08:05:42 [koalie]
Zakim, take up item 1
08:05:42 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "introductions (<1 min please)" taken up [from chaals]
08:06:00 [koalie]
Chaals: We may be recorded, if you do not wish your comment to be recorded, please, write /me in IRC
08:06:03 [koalie]
Zakim, close this item
08:06:03 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
08:06:04 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
08:06:04 [Zakim]
2. Group Dynamics - fatigue, timing [from chaals]
08:06:07 [koalie]
Zakim, next item
08:06:07 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Group Dynamics - fatigue, timing" taken up [from chaals]
08:06:21 [koalie]
Andy_Coleman: XML Query WG co-chair, recently appointed
08:06:37 [koalie]
Giri: Geolocation WG co-chair, recently appointed
08:07:18 [chaals]
zakim, unmute lisa
08:07:18 [Zakim]
Lisa should no longer be muted
08:07:26 [koalie]
Kerry_Taylor: SSN XG a couple years ago, will be appointed @@ in the future
08:07:39 [chaals]
s/@@/to a new WG/
08:07:45 [koalie]
Lisa_Seeman: @@ accessibility
08:07:56 [koalie]
Nigel_Megitt: co-chair Timed Text WG
08:07:59 [chaals]
zakim, mute lisa
08:07:59 [Zakim]
Lisa should now be muted
08:08:10 [koalie]
Cindy: Team Contacts of Web Apps WG
08:08:15 [chaals]
s/@@/TF on cognitive
08:08:24 [koalie]
Yosuke_Funahashi: Co-chair of Web and TV IG
08:08:36 [chaals]
zakim, take up agendum 2
08:08:36 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Group Dynamics - fatigue, timing" taken up [from chaals]
08:08:37 [koalie]
Zakim, close this item
08:08:37 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
08:08:38 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
08:08:38 [Zakim]
3. The chair [from chaals]
08:09:03 [chaals]
-> The driving document
08:09:10 [koalie]
Topic: Group Dynamics - fatigue, timing
08:10:32 [koalie]
chaals: I chose fatigue and timing topics on purpose
08:11:02 [koalie]
... hard to concentrate more than one hour
08:11:08 [koalie]
... you can take small breaks
08:11:18 [koalie]
... I plan to take a break after one hour into this call
08:11:28 [koalie]
... We may use or not the second hour
08:11:33 [koalie]
... But we'll take a break
08:11:39 [koalie]
... No-one is forced to take a break
08:11:54 [koalie]
... I hope to stop after an hour
08:12:01 [koalie]
... I use that break A LOT
08:12:22 [koalie]
... We often find that groups get wound up on details and lose focus
08:12:33 [koalie]
... When I chair meetings, I reset the focus on the agenda
08:12:58 [koalie]
... My experience is that if people have not found agreement in one hour, they're unlikely to find it for an hour and 15 minutes and so on
08:13:17 [koalie]
... If people are close to agreement, I find that either during the break, or that evening, they solve the problem on their own
08:13:29 [koalie]
... and next time we have the discussion we find we've come to consensus.
08:13:37 [koalie]
08:13:55 [koalie]
chaals: I hope not to be giving a lecture for an hour; please do use the queue
08:14:15 [koalie]
Topic: The Chair
08:14:42 [koalie]
chaals: A lot of the things I know about chairing I learned by sitting in meetings and watching chairs
08:14:55 [koalie]
... and thinking at time "oh, if I'm chair, I don't want to do this"
08:15:20 [koalie]
... It's valuable to collect lists of "don't do that"
08:15:32 [koalie]
... Are there things that Chairs do that drive you nuts?
08:15:38 [koalie]
... speak up
08:15:46 [nigel]
08:15:50 [koalie]
ack nigel
08:16:02 [chaals]
q+ to say "replying to each speaker, before the next person in queue gets to say anything"
08:16:11 [koalie]
Nigel: When a chair allows someone to talk for too long without giving much information
08:16:14 [chaals]
ack me
08:16:14 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to say "replying to each speaker, before the next person in queue gets to say anything"
08:16:16 [koalie]
chaals: Yes
08:16:32 [koalie]
chaals: One of the things I find annoying is a chair that replies to every speaker
08:16:49 [koalie]
chaals: it takes a lot of time and isn't always useful
08:17:06 [Andy]
08:17:07 [LisaSeeman]
08:17:12 [chaals]
ack and
08:17:13 [koalie]
ack andy
08:17:41 [LisaSeeman]
Zakim, lisa is me
08:17:41 [Zakim]
+LisaSeeman; got it
08:17:42 [koalie]
Andy: Outside W3C I've experienced a chair @@not very helpful for getting things done
08:17:54 [koalie]
ack lis
08:18:05 [chaals]
s/@@/monstering the group and acting more like a president than a chair /
08:18:38 [koalie]
Lisa: One of the things that bug me is when something from previous meetings comes up again dispite this having been minuted and the chair lets the re-hashing happen
08:18:43 [koalie]
... chair should give orientation
08:18:59 [chaals]
08:19:04 [koalie]
... and suggest to revisit only if there are issues
08:19:10 [chaals]
zakim, mute lisa
08:19:10 [Zakim]
LisaSeeman should now be muted
08:19:12 [Andy]
Experiences a chair that acts as a President with advisers rather than as an 'equal' as far as decision making is concerned
08:19:15 [chaals]
08:19:16 [LisaSeeman]
zakim muke me
08:19:43 [chaals]
q+ to complain about chiars who don't know the tools
08:19:48 [chaals]
ack me
08:19:48 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to complain about chiars who don't know the tools
08:20:06 [koalie]
chaals: Another frustration is about Chairs unaware of tools we have, and how to use them
08:20:22 [chaals]
-> W3C tools for chairs (last chair training session)
08:20:36 [koalie]
chaals: Here's a link to Ralph's tools session in previous chair training
08:21:01 [koalie]
chaals: Also, chairs who don't manage to keep the agenda
08:21:38 [koalie]
chaals: I'm happy with changing an agenda during the meeting, but it can be frustrated when you travel or get up at 3 in the morning and an agenda is hi-jacked
08:21:50 [koalie]
... agenda needs to be fair to anybody
08:22:18 [koalie]
chaals: There are other things that Chairs do wrong, and we, I in particular, are humans and volunteers; it's not surprising we don't get everything right
08:22:24 [koalie]
... but it's important we try to set an example
08:22:31 [koalie]
... I will come back to the topic perhaps
08:22:42 [koalie]
... There is another part of the difficulty: giving your own opinion
08:22:51 [koalie]
Topic: Giving your personal opinion
08:23:07 [koalie]
chaals: in a WG, we are possibly our company's representative
08:23:31 [koalie]
... balancing the way we chair the group and the way we represent our own perspective is quite difficult
08:23:46 [koalie]
chaals: Andy, you mentioned a chair
08:24:10 [koalie]
Andy: Yes, in a government body, supposedly organised the same way; the chair thought himself as the leader
08:24:17 [koalie]
... and dismissed opinions
08:24:35 [koalie]
chaals: One of the issues is that chairs reasonably have strong personality
08:24:47 [koalie]
... they're appointed because they're deemed to be able to leading the group
08:24:53 [koalie]
... How to balance that?
08:24:56 [nigel]
08:24:59 [LisaSeeman]
08:25:14 [koalie]
Nigel: So far, I've tried to stay quiet as long as possible
08:26:06 [chaals]
q+ to say I try to use the queue strictly, especially on myself.
08:26:10 [chaals]
ack ni
08:26:19 [koalie]
... treading the tricky line between summarising and telling what the decision is
08:26:29 [chaals]
ack li
08:26:46 [xiaoqian]
08:26:59 [koalie]
Lisa: what I try to remember to do is to say when I'm speaking my opinion as a member of the group
08:27:13 [xiaoqian]
08:27:28 [chaals]
ack me
08:27:28 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to say I try to use the queue strictly, especially on myself.
08:27:32 [koalie]
Lisa: At the end of the conversation, I ask if anyone would like to comment@@
08:27:36 [LisaSeeman]
zakim, mute me
08:27:36 [Zakim]
LisaSeeman should now be muted
08:27:36 [koalie]
mute li
08:27:57 [koalie]
chaals: I do something similar and use the queue strictly
08:28:12 [koalie]
... I try to distinguish me giving an opinion and me being chair
08:28:31 [koalie]
... this goes back to what Nigel said, trying to make resolutions really clear
08:28:49 [koalie]
... the difference between providing and being chair: I'll try to clarify what people have said
08:29:18 [koalie]
... I'll do that as an individual, but if we're reaching a conclusion point, I'll try to reach a resolution
08:29:31 [koalie]
... a statement that people can agree, or disagree with
08:29:59 [koalie]
... write that down as a clear resolution; separately from the things I said as a member of the group
08:30:21 [kerry]
kerry has left #chairing
08:30:23 [koalie]
... Chairs who don't clearly state the things we agreed to do so you can't object is a problem I've had with a number of chairs
08:30:36 [koalie]
08:30:52 [koalie]
Zakim, agenda?
08:30:52 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
08:30:53 [Zakim]
3. The chair [from chaals]
08:30:53 [Zakim]
4. what if we reconsider… - decisions [from chaals]
08:30:53 [Zakim]
5. what next? [from chaals]
08:31:00 [koalie]
Zakim, take up item 4
08:31:00 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "what if we reconsider… - decisions" taken up [from chaals]
08:31:04 [koalie]
Zakim, drop item 3
08:31:04 [Zakim]
agendum 3, The chair, dropped
08:31:15 [koalie]
chaals: This is the point that Lisa mentioned
08:31:27 [koalie]
... How do you get a group to make a decision?
08:31:31 [koalie]
... this is really tricky
08:31:37 [koalie]
... as Nigel said, chairing is difficult
08:32:08 [koalie]
... the cracks of what is difficult, when the goas is to get consensus, if how to get consensus as opposed to discussing forever
08:32:12 [koalie]
08:32:16 [LisaSeeman]
08:32:26 [chaals]
ack lisa
08:32:29 [koalie]
... and how Lisa mentioned, to prevent re-hashing past discussion
08:32:45 [koalie]
Lisa: Our 1st deliverabal: gap analysis
08:32:53 [chaals]
08:32:54 [koalie]
... what can be done to help people have better access to the Web
08:33:12 [koalie]
... for such a vast topic, there are numerous topics
08:33:21 [kerry]
kerry has joined #chairing
08:33:21 [koalie]
... Also, educating the group
08:33:44 [koalie]
Lisa: issues on a document, summary of different technologies, so people can refer back to them
08:33:49 [koalie]
... we use wiki a lot
08:34:18 [chaals]
08:34:35 [koalie]
Lisa: Any topic that comes up I try to make sure there's a logical place on the wiki to save it
08:34:43 [nigel]
q+ to say we set a 10 day post-resolution 'cooling off' period
08:34:47 [koalie]
Lisa: so people ought to be on the same page
08:34:49 [chaals]
q- later
08:35:08 [koalie]
Lisa: Also, I give my group my @@ and try to be available for them, especially for newbies
08:35:20 [chaals]
s/@@/Skype handle etc
08:35:25 [LisaSeeman]
zakim, mute me
08:35:25 [Zakim]
LisaSeeman should now be muted
08:35:25 [koalie]
... people can re-open discussion, but often they need to be filled in.
08:35:31 [koalie]
ack n
08:35:31 [Zakim]
nigel, you wanted to say we set a 10 day post-resolution 'cooling off' period
08:35:34 [chaals]
08:35:48 [koalie]
Nigel: We have a statement in our charter that I often reiterate
08:36:17 [koalie]
Nigel: There is a ten-day period after resolutions are made that allows people to object, catch up, raise issues, etc.
08:36:24 [koalie]
Nigel: That's another tool
08:36:38 [chaals]
[enabling email decisions]
08:36:45 [chaals]
08:36:56 [kerry]
08:36:58 [koalie]
Nigel: if people are late, I can use this tool (I have yet to)
08:37:00 [koalie]
ack ch
08:37:11 [koalie]
chaals: as an AC rep, I object to charters which do not enable that
08:37:20 [koalie]
chaals: I think it's a great tool.
08:37:48 [chaals]
ack kerr
08:37:49 [koalie]
chaals: The ability to stop recycling discussion depends on having things written clearly written, and in obvious places, like Lisa said.
08:37:52 [koalie]
ack k
08:38:03 [koalie]
Kerry: I have to leave, thanks very much!
08:38:03 [Zakim]
08:38:08 [koalie]
chaals: Thanks for coming!
08:38:11 [chaals]
08:38:23 [koalie]
[Kerry Taylor leaves]
08:38:24 [koalie]
ack ch
08:39:01 [koalie]
chaasl: I had not heard the cooling off expressed as such as Nigel mentioned it. And writing things down makes sense.
08:39:10 [koalie]
... there's another side of recycling discussion
08:39:17 [koalie]
... when someone brings a new perspective,
08:39:32 [nigel]
q+ to say that with issues we sometimes close them off and then allow new issues to be raised against the resolution in the previous issue
08:39:39 [chaals]
ack ni
08:39:39 [Zakim]
nigel, you wanted to say that with issues we sometimes close them off and then allow new issues to be raised against the resolution in the previous issue
08:39:43 [koalie]
... is there a way, any tool (other than memory) to highlight it as new perspective?
08:39:46 [koalie]
ack ni
08:40:19 [koalie]
Nigel: We sometimes close issues and a new issued is raised on a solution that closed a previous issue
08:40:21 [chaals]
08:40:35 [koalie]
... It created a multi-layer thing and makes it a bit harder for the Chair
08:40:42 [koalie]
08:40:58 [koalie]
Nigel: Very often it's a new thing that somebody thought of.
08:41:03 [chaals]
ack me
08:41:11 [koalie]
chaals: I like that, actually
08:41:23 [koalie]
... one of the thing that's attractive is that it lets you close issues
08:41:32 [koalie]
... but provides a way to @@
08:41:44 [chaals]
s/@@/go back to the original discussion
08:41:50 [koalie]
... so when you go back to the discussion you can go back to the old discussion.
08:42:30 [koalie]
Zakim, agenda?
08:42:30 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
08:42:31 [Zakim]
4. what if we reconsider… - decisions [from chaals]
08:42:31 [Zakim]
5. what next? [from chaals]
08:42:46 [LisaSeeman]
08:42:48 [koalie]
Zakim, close item 4
08:42:48 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, koalie
08:42:51 [chaals]
ack li
08:43:02 [koalie]
Zakim, next item
08:43:02 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "what next?" taken up [from chaals]
08:43:32 [chaals]
q+ to suggest "I don't need your input" as a topic
08:43:41 [koalie]
Lisa: Having people to create the deliverable they signed up for, in time or not too late, is really hard
08:43:45 [chaals]
ack me
08:43:45 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to suggest "I don't need your input" as a topic
08:43:52 [LisaSeeman]
zakim, mute me
08:43:52 [Zakim]
LisaSeeman should now be muted
08:44:52 [koalie]
chaals: How do we use the next 15 minutes into this hour?
08:45:03 [chaals]
agenda+ Meeting timelines with volunteers
08:45:20 [koalie]
chaals: going one by one.
08:45:54 [koalie]
Zakim, agenda?
08:45:54 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
08:45:55 [Zakim]
5. what next? [from chaals]
08:45:55 [Zakim]
6. Meeting timelines with volunteers [from chaals]
08:45:59 [koalie]
Zakim, close this item
08:45:59 [Zakim]
agendum 5 closed
08:46:00 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
08:46:00 [Zakim]
6. Meeting timelines with volunteers [from chaals]
08:46:07 [koalie]
Zakim, take up item 6
08:46:07 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Meeting timelines with volunteers" taken up [from chaals]
08:46:12 [nigel]
08:46:13 [koalie]
chaals: I'd love a solution to this!
08:46:16 [koalie]
ack n
08:46:20 [chaals]
q+ to add a problem...
08:46:31 [koalie]
Nigel: I've had this problem recently; two deliverables with overlapping timelines
08:46:48 [koalie]
... different people more keen to progress on one more than the other deliverable
08:47:02 [chaals]
agenda+ Editors who don't listen to the group
08:47:06 [koalie]
... I've begun a standard practice at every meeting to prioritise agenda items
08:47:21 [koalie]
... when I do that, people who're keen on something want to bump things up the queue
08:47:34 [koalie]
... our problem is that we don't have enough time
08:47:45 [koalie]
... we break the one-hour rule, as a result
08:47:53 [koalie]
... next time, I'll suggest we have a break after 1 hour
08:47:58 [chaals]
agenda+ action reviews and similar "admin-heavy/traditional" approaches
08:48:14 [koalie]
... slightly tangantial: when people commit to a timeline and don't deliver output to meet that
08:48:20 [koalie]
... is there anything that can be done?
08:48:29 [chaals]
08:48:43 [chaals]
ack me
08:48:43 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to add a problem...
08:48:50 [koalie]
... waiting for something be be more perfect? or bring down the axe and publish?
08:49:22 [koalie]
chaals: recently, it took 6 months to deliver 3 days of work, but I didn't have 3 days until finally I got it done
08:49:42 [koalie]
... the problem with "let's ship now" is if you are too strict in applying that, people will ignore what you've done
08:49:56 [koalie]
... there is a real judgement to make
08:50:34 [koalie]
... one approach we've tried with some success: offer to other people to help edit a spec and move it forward
08:51:00 [chaals]
08:51:02 [LisaSeeman]
08:51:07 [chaals]
ack li
08:51:07 [koalie]
... the problem with that is you had a problem and may end up with two problems
08:51:46 [koalie]
Lisa: I've tried to ask for a draft in 6 weeks for something we want to publish in 3 months
08:52:02 [koalie]
... a 6-week deadline for a chunk is doable
08:52:03 [chaals]
q+ to +1 this idea of small manageable chunks, and then talk about balancing busy people and deliberate blocking
08:52:12 [koalie]
... you can't ignore a 6-week deadline.
08:52:13 [chaals]
ack me
08:52:13 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to +1 this idea of small manageable chunks, and then talk about balancing busy people and deliberate blocking
08:52:16 [LisaSeeman]
zakim, mute me
08:52:16 [Zakim]
LisaSeeman should now be muted
08:52:28 [koalie]
chaals: Breaking it down into manageable sized pieces is something I like a lot
08:52:49 [koalie]
chaals: I'd be interested to know more about how do you find that work or not
08:52:57 [koalie]
chaals: Another snenario:
08:53:19 [koalie]
... sometimes you have busy peopls, and sometimes in controversial groups, people going to the group just to block the work
08:53:41 [koalie]
... volunteers on one hand, and people trying to block progress on the other
08:53:58 [koalie]
... taking up work, requesting extensions and blocking the group for months
08:54:04 [koalie]
... How do you tell the difference?
08:54:08 [koalie]
... and, what do you do?
08:54:19 [nigel]
08:54:22 [koalie]
ack n
08:54:22 [chaals]
ack ni
08:55:03 [koalie]
Nigel: the only way to find out whether they're busy or blockers is to know them
08:55:07 [koalie]
... talk to them outside of meetings
08:55:20 [koalie]
... the two behavious seems to be undistinguishable.
08:55:22 [chaals]
08:55:25 [koalie]
08:55:29 [koalie]
ack ch
08:55:35 [koalie]
chaals: Knowing the people is really helpful
08:55:41 [nigel]
s/know them/know them as individuals
08:55:51 [koalie]
... Frankly, I, as a Chair, just make judgement calls.
08:56:13 [koalie]
... Figuring out what's going on depends on knowing people and their goals
08:56:22 [koalie]
... tools I use to get closure is impose deadlines
08:56:32 [koalie]
... problem I have is: it's easy to be seen as unfair
08:56:44 [koalie]
... in some cases, I'm more or less strictly imposing the deadline.
08:57:04 [koalie]
.. or the group does, based on the general impression
08:57:07 [LisaSeeman]
08:57:15 [koalie]
... That works unless people start stacking the group.
08:57:33 [koalie]
... one of the issues I mentioned already: if you impose deadlines too strictly, you lose the people that you really want
08:57:43 [koalie]
chaals: That's one of the things I throw in the balance
08:57:51 [chaals]
ack li
08:57:58 [koalie]
... I don't have an answer, but how fast do you need to enforce a decision?
08:58:00 [chaals]
08:58:27 [koalie]
Lisa: One thing seems to be effective: I switched people around
08:58:59 [koalie]
... putting a person who's done their part really well on another part
08:59:24 [koalie]
... there were lots of good reasons to do it in any way, but it may be helpful generally and for more deliverables
08:59:35 [chaals]
q+ time check - do we want to do a second half?
08:59:38 [LisaSeeman]
zakim, mute me
08:59:38 [Zakim]
LisaSeeman should now be muted
08:59:40 [chaals]
08:59:57 [koalie]
chaals: we've been going on for 55 minutes
09:01:00 [koalie]
chaals: let's take 5 or 10 minutes
09:01:04 [koalie]
... and resume for a second half
09:01:10 [koalie]
... I want 10 unless people want 5
09:01:39 [koalie]
... let's reconvene in 9 minutes.
09:01:41 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
09:01:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate koalie
09:01:55 [chaals]
agenda+ people who work outside the group
09:02:16 [chaals]
agenda+ ignoring the chair / chairing from the floor
09:06:41 [Zakim]
09:08:30 [Zakim]
09:11:06 [LisaSeeman]
09:11:11 [Zakim]
09:11:26 [koalie]
Zakim, agenda?
09:11:26 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
09:11:28 [Zakim]
6. Meeting timelines with volunteers [from chaals]
09:11:28 [Zakim]
7. Editors who don't listen to the group [from chaals]
09:11:28 [Zakim]
8. action reviews and similar "admin-heavy/traditional" approaches [from chaals]
09:11:28 [Zakim]
9. people who work outside the group [from chaals]
09:11:28 [Zakim]
10. ignoring the chair / chairing from the floor [from chaals]
09:11:30 [chaals]
ack lisa
09:11:42 [chaals]
agenda+ starting on time, and other timing issues
09:11:45 [koalie]
Lisa: on blockers
09:11:57 [Zakim]
09:12:20 [koalie]
... if you have serious blockers and if you have an issue, a fantastic tool: make a task force on fixing that issue
09:12:51 [koalie]
... if you've got your one or two people who block in that TF, the environment is going to be hostile for them
09:13:03 [Zakim]
09:13:18 [LisaSeeman]
zakim, mute me
09:13:18 [Zakim]
LisaSeeman should now be muted
09:13:25 [koalie]
Zakim, close this item
09:13:25 [Zakim]
agendum 6 closed
09:13:26 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
09:13:26 [Zakim]
7. Editors who don't listen to the group [from chaals]
09:13:29 [koalie]
Zakim, take up item 11
09:13:29 [Zakim]
agendum 11. "starting on time, and other timing issues" taken up [from chaals]
09:13:49 [koalie]
chaals: There's no magic: the chair needs to be there on time
09:14:01 [chaals]
zakim, who is making noise?
09:14:15 [Zakim]
chaals, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: chaals (93%)
09:14:47 [koalie]
... people are going to be there so respect this
09:15:13 [koalie]
chaals: taking breaks is useful as we've stated earlier
09:15:27 [koalie]
... how to get people to start on time?
09:15:52 [chaals]
09:15:59 [koalie]
... start and expect late comers to know you start on time so they'd better be on time
09:16:05 [nigel]
09:16:06 [koalie]
... end on time too
09:16:10 [chaals]
ack ni
09:16:26 [koalie]
Nigel: stopping on time is something I'm keen on too
09:17:06 [koalie]
... I've found it doesn't seem reasonable to stop people when they have something to say
09:17:33 [nigel]
s/stop people/start discussions when absent people
09:17:47 [nigel]
s/when they/
09:18:25 [chaals]
09:18:32 [koalie]
Andy: Generally, people start arriving on the call and it's 4 or 5 minutes into the call when all have arrived
09:18:34 [chaals]
ack me
09:19:08 [koalie]
chaals: Most of us I suspect rely on calendars and stuff start and end at the top and bottom of the hours
09:19:28 [koalie]
... if you planned to start at 5 past, would that make people to actually start at 5 past?
09:19:40 [koalie]
... counting time for people to make transition.
09:19:55 [koalie]
Zakim, agenda?
09:19:55 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
09:19:56 [Zakim]
7. Editors who don't listen to the group [from chaals]
09:19:56 [Zakim]
8. action reviews and similar "admin-heavy/traditional" approaches [from chaals]
09:19:56 [Zakim]
9. people who work outside the group [from chaals]
09:19:56 [Zakim]
10. ignoring the chair / chairing from the floor [from chaals]
09:19:56 [Zakim]
11. starting on time, and other timing issues [from chaals]
09:20:07 [koalie]
Zakim, close this item
09:20:07 [Zakim]
agendum 11 closed
09:20:08 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
09:20:08 [Zakim]
7. Editors who don't listen to the group [from chaals]
09:20:10 [koalie]
Zakim, take up item 7
09:20:10 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "Editors who don't listen to the group" taken up [from chaals]
09:20:29 [koalie]
chaals: This is a bug bear or mine
09:20:46 [koalie]
... one thought is to replace editors
09:20:57 [chaals]
s/or mine/of mine/
09:21:07 [koalie]
... but people who tend to not listen the group are likely to @@
09:21:15 [nigel]
09:21:19 [chaals]
ack ni
09:21:24 [koalie]
... and people who are nominated editors are usually good at that
09:21:44 [koalie]
Nigel: I'd present the edits, and encourage other members to work on proposal for changes
09:21:48 [chaals]
s/likely to @@/relatively likely to just take their toys and leave.../
09:22:01 [koalie]
... on wiki so that everyone can see and all have a chance to make changes
09:22:07 [chaals]
zakim, who is here?
09:22:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see chaals, LisaSeeman (muted), koalie (muted), Xiaoqian, gmandyam, Andy, [IPcaller], nigel, nigel.a
09:22:09 [Zakim]
On IRC I see xiaoqian, Andy, gmandyam, LisaSeeman, yosuke, nigel, chaals, Zakim, RRSAgent, koalie, schuki
09:22:21 [chaals]
zakim, who is making noise?
09:22:35 [LisaSeeman_]
LisaSeeman_ has joined #chairing
09:22:35 [Zakim]
chaals, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: chaals (70%)
09:22:38 [koalie]
Nigel: The problem is that sometimes it's easier to edit directly and not look at the wiki
09:23:03 [koalie]
chaals: I don't have a very good answer for this
09:23:46 [koalie]
... but what I try to point out is that there's a legal reasons at W3C to avoid breaking; anti-competitive behaviour law
09:24:18 [koalie]
... reminding editors of that is sometimes useful
09:24:38 [chaals]
zakim, drop nigel
09:24:38 [Zakim]
nigel is being disconnected
09:24:40 [Zakim]
09:25:11 [koalie]
Zakim, close this item
09:25:11 [Zakim]
agendum 7 closed
09:25:13 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
09:25:13 [Zakim]
8. action reviews and similar "admin-heavy/traditional" approaches [from chaals]
09:25:15 [chaals]
zakim, take up agendum 9
09:25:15 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "people who work outside the group" taken up [from chaals]
09:25:15 [koalie]
Zakim, take up item 9
09:25:16 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "people who work outside the group" taken up [from chaals]
09:25:41 [LisaSeeman_]
\me what to do about long time getting people identified in zakim?
09:25:47 [koalie]
chaals: people who work outside the group: is it a problem --editors in particular-- and if so, what should we do?
09:26:20 [koalie]
chaals: often we'll cut off the discussion because an hour has gone, people will come back with an answer
09:26:30 [koalie]
... that's sort of working outside the group
09:27:00 [koalie]
... we're back to the anti-competitive law
09:27:22 [koalie]
... if people come back to the meeting and there's a chance for the group to discuss the solution, change it if people are unhappy, I think we're ok with that
09:27:47 [koalie]
... When I find it a genuine problem is when two or three people don't bother presenting results and changes to the group at all
09:28:07 [koalie]
... it is harder to track who contributed what
09:28:16 [koalie]
... in w3C Chairs are expected to track contributions for
09:28:29 [koalie]
s/for/for IPR reasons/
09:28:36 [koalie]
09:29:04 [koalie]
... I'm not sure what strategies people have.
09:29:10 [koalie]
... or even if they consider it a problem
09:29:14 [nigel]
09:29:17 [koalie]
ack nigel
09:29:17 [chaals]
ack ni
09:29:30 [koalie]
Nigel: I do consider it a problem. But I don't have a strategy.
09:29:47 [koalie]
... when a doc has been used as basis for a W3C rec and has largely been made outside of W3C
09:30:03 [koalie]
... it's difficult to uncover information
09:30:19 [koalie]
... not sure it's a problem if members of the group agree on it?
09:30:38 [koalie]
chaals: You don't have to conclude that if you're a member of@@
09:31:26 [chaals]
s/@@/ the group, as well as a chair/
09:31:39 [koalie]
chaals: dirty tricks like going to the team, seeking if it's implementable, helps assess if the basis is good enough.
09:32:05 [koalie]
chaals: for me it's one of the big issues that I face
09:32:34 [koalie]
chaals: I try to encourage a culture of organising meetings, semi-formal dicussions
09:33:09 [chaals]
agenda+ organising meetings
09:33:17 [koalie]
Zakim, close this item
09:33:17 [Zakim]
agendum 9 closed
09:33:18 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
09:33:18 [Zakim]
8. action reviews and similar "admin-heavy/traditional" approaches [from chaals]
09:33:20 [chaals]
09:33:35 [koalie]
Zakim, take up item 10
09:33:35 [Zakim]
agendum 10. "ignoring the chair / chairing from the floor" taken up [from chaals]
09:33:57 [koalie]
chaals: in the wiki there were a few things about this topic
09:34:16 [koalie]
chaals: my feeling is that it's not much of a problem if the meeting runs itself; it's a good thing
09:34:29 [koalie]
... where people just refuse to listen to the Chair, that's much more difficult.
09:34:36 [koalie]
... I wonder, how do you deal with that?
09:35:07 [koalie]
ack me
09:36:12 [koalie]
chaals: Coralie said you can bring up to the domain lead someone that is difficult; yes, you may push a problem to the staff
09:36:30 [koalie]
chaals: I'd like to be able to avoid having to do that
09:37:43 [koalie]
... I try to focus on the problematic behaviour; not ignoring the person
09:38:32 [koalie]
... standing up and saying "look, I'm the authority" will not achieve much
09:39:14 [koalie]
... without jumping up and down, being clear that a particular piece of work needs to be done, or someone has been standing in the queue, will work with the group most of the time
09:39:50 [koalie]
Zakim, close this item
09:39:50 [Zakim]
agendum 10 closed
09:39:51 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
09:39:51 [Zakim]
8. action reviews and similar "admin-heavy/traditional" approaches [from chaals]
09:39:53 [koalie]
Zakim, take up item 8
09:39:53 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "action reviews and similar "admin-heavy/traditional" approaches" taken up [from chaals]
09:40:21 [nigel]
09:40:22 [koalie]
chaals: using action review, formally approving minutes, the sort of things, do people do this?
09:40:26 [chaals]
ack ni
09:40:46 [koalie]
Nigel: We do, agenda has a whole part on actions and issues, what's pending, what's due
09:40:50 [koalie]
... it's important
09:41:05 [Andy]
09:41:21 [koalie]
... quite often, I'll put it on the agenda and after prioritising, actions are taken up
09:41:35 [koalie]
... alternative may be worse: they get forgotten about.
09:41:37 [chaals]
ack an
09:41:54 [koalie]
Andy: We spend a fair bit of time on administative side
09:41:54 [chaals]
09:42:01 [koalie]
... sometimes quite useful
09:42:02 [nigel]
s/actions are taken up/agenda items fall off the end and are not covered
09:42:18 [koalie]
... I'm new to chairing and it's been done that way and it needs to be done that way
09:42:48 [koalie]
... it's the opportunity to go back on the work people have committed to do
09:43:10 [koalie]
... admin preamble is an opportunity to beat people up into doing the work, in my experience
09:43:25 [koalie]
... than, technical work, that is the rest of the agenda, is blocked unless actions are done
09:43:29 [koalie]
09:43:29 [chaals]
ack me
09:43:37 [koalie]
chaals: my experience is mixed
09:44:29 [koalie]
... Because @@ think harder about what they said they'd do, but being more realistic about who can do what
09:45:30 [koalie]
chaals: action item review is useful so long as you're not losing things; action items should not be the whole agenda
09:46:10 [koalie]
chaals: Dan Connolly used to structure the agenda based on action items and actions would crop up under respective agenda items
09:46:29 [chaals]
s/@@/the group
09:47:03 [koalie]
chaals: Out of Andy's point, confirming minutes is a tool I'll remember as a good way to start the meeting
09:47:28 [nigel]
09:47:35 [chaals]
ack ni
09:48:39 [koalie]
Nigel: I wanted to add that care should be given@@
09:48:43 [chaals]
s/start the meeting/get people to start the meeting on time/
09:49:02 [chaals]
s/@@/ to using tracker's agenda tool - it needs to be carefully edited/
09:49:04 [koalie]
... also, closing actions gives people a sense the group is making progress, so I try to close as much as possible
09:49:14 [koalie]
chaals: Depends on the WG
09:49:22 [koalie]
... there are groups that find it very productive
09:49:37 [koalie]
... there are others which find this is very bureaucratic
09:50:00 [koalie]
... and for which changing code regularly matters
09:50:07 [koalie]
... it's a question of degree
09:50:30 [koalie]
s/changing/closing technical questions and changing/
09:50:56 [chaals]
09:50:57 [koalie]
Zakim, close this item
09:50:58 [Zakim]
agendum 8 closed
09:50:58 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
09:50:58 [Zakim]
12. organising meetings [from chaals]
09:51:01 [koalie]
Zakim, take up item 12
09:51:01 [Zakim]
agendum 12. "organising meetings" taken up [from chaals]
09:51:09 [koalie]
chaals: Best for last!
09:51:39 [koalie]
... there has been some serious discussions up and down W3C about organisaing meetings
09:52:13 [koalie]
... we've had some events in the context of the WebApps WG; strated with a one off meeting, but mostly should have been in the context of WebApps WG
09:52:30 [koalie]
... on the Process:
09:52:38 [koalie]
... there are all kinds of ideas of what W3C requires for meetings
09:53:05 [koalie]
... if you read the Process, there are things you SHOULD do, but nothing you MUST do
09:53:22 [koalie]
... should have minutes, should be live in IRC so people can follow, should allow remote participation for f2f meetings
09:53:29 [koalie]
... those are not even mentioned
09:54:44 [koalie]
... so, I am pushing to get the process changed
09:54:54 [koalie]
... luckily, I edit the process in the AB
09:55:02 [koalie]
... the other side is getting the WG to agree to a meeting
09:55:36 [koalie]
... my bug bear is getting a group that is large to meet outside of Silicon Valley
09:55:52 [chaals]
s/large/large and has members from all over the world/
09:56:03 [koalie]
... I don't know if there is anything we can do to encourage people this way
09:56:14 [koalie]
... any thoughts on meetings, tools?
09:56:25 [Andy]
09:56:28 [chaals]
ack and
09:56:59 [koalie]
Andy: 50%-50% membership; we try to spread geographically and use TPAC as default
09:57:07 [koalie]
... generally, membership is amenable to that.
09:57:15 [nigel]
09:57:22 [koalie]
ack N
09:57:32 [chaals]
s/% member/% US and Europe member/
09:57:32 [koalie]
Nigel: I'm in the process of organising a F2F
09:57:45 [koalie]
... looking for a host, and dates, in advance
09:58:00 [koalie]
... I'm concerned that attendance will be low despite notice
09:58:02 [chaals]
09:58:04 [koalie]
... any tips?
09:58:45 [koalie]
... the other question is paying for food, what do people think about dinner or lunch to discuss outside of context?
09:58:52 [koalie]
... Should we push this forward?
09:58:55 [Andy]
09:59:00 [chaals]
q- later
09:59:03 [chaals]
ack an
09:59:12 [koalie]
Andy: we rely on generosity of hosting member
09:59:24 [koalie]
... if we're lucky they supply coffee and lunch
09:59:37 [koalie]
... we aim to organise a social evening
09:59:38 [chaals]
zakim, close queue
09:59:38 [Zakim]
ok, chaals, the speaker queue is closed
10:00:01 [koalie]
... inevitably it happens that there's a work/agenda aspect to the social part
10:00:09 [Zakim]
10:00:22 [koalie]
chaals: my experience is that people are happy to pay for their own lunch
10:00:26 [xiaoqian]
zakim, call xiaoqian-mobile
10:00:26 [Zakim]
ok, xiaoqian; the call is being made
10:00:28 [Zakim]
10:00:29 [koalie]
... people will pay for dinner too
10:00:41 [Zakim]
10:00:45 [koalie]
... unless people are sponsoring, I'll go with cheap and
10:01:16 [nigel]
chaals: it's useful to have the people and the place but the rest is administrative details
10:01:27 [Zakim]
10:01:41 [nigel]
... I'll adjourn as we've hit time. Thanks everyone for your input. I will use this to update the wiki as well.
10:01:43 [koalie]
i/chaals: it's/scribenick: nigel/
10:01:53 [Zakim]
10:01:55 [Zakim]
10:01:55 [Zakim]
10:01:56 [koalie]
thanks chaals!
10:01:57 [Zakim]
10:01:59 [Zakim]
10:02:00 [koalie]
thanks all!
10:02:07 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
10:02:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate koalie
10:02:09 [chaals]
[Thank you all very much]
10:02:09 [Zakim]
10:02:10 [Zakim]
Team_ChTr()4:00AM has ended
10:02:10 [Zakim]
Attendees were [IPcaller], chaals, nigel, koalie, yosuke, Xiaoqian, +, Kerry, gmandyam, [IBM-Hursley], Andy, LisaSeeman
10:02:28 [chaals]
10:02:33 [koalie]
s/resent+ Nigel/resent+ 1-Nigel/
10:02:48 [koalie]
s/resent+ Lisa/resent+ 1-Lisa/
10:02:49 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
10:02:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate koalie
10:03:15 [koalie]
meeting: Chair Training: The Human Dimension
10:03:17 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
10:03:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate koalie
10:04:19 [koalie]
[end of first session of "Chair Training: The Human Dimension"]
10:04:20 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
10:04:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate koalie
10:04:54 [koalie]
s/zakim muke me//
10:05:15 [koalie]
s/<LisaSeeman> mute me//
10:06:19 [koalie]
s/mute li//
10:06:40 [koalie]
s|\me what to do about long time getting people identified in zakim?||
10:07:36 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
10:07:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate koalie
10:08:20 [koalie]
s/<xiaoqian> 】【‘//
10:08:27 [koalie]
10:08:44 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
10:08:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate koalie
10:09:41 [koalie]
koalie has left #chairing
10:13:17 [xiaoqian]
xiaoqian has left #chairing
10:16:14 [nigel]
nigel has left #chairing
16:55:21 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #chairing
16:55:21 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:55:27 [chaals]
present- chaals
16:55:32 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:55:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate chaals
16:56:02 [chaals]
16:56:08 [chaals]
zakim, close item 12
16:56:08 [Zakim]
agendum 12, organising meetings, closed
16:56:09 [Zakim]
I see nothing remaining on the agenda
16:56:24 [chaals]
zakim, this will be chtr3
16:56:24 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, chaals
16:56:46 [chaals]
agenda+ Introductions (< 1m please)
16:56:52 [chaals]
zakim, clear agenda
16:56:52 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
16:57:15 [chaals]
Topic: Second Session
17:04:02 [chaals]
zakim, this will be chtr3
17:04:02 [Zakim]
ok, chaals; I see Team_ChTr()2:00PM scheduled to start in 56 minutes
17:04:10 [chaals]
17:04:24 [chaals]
agenda+ Introductions
17:29:23 [chaals]
agenda+ Group Dynamics - timing and fatigue
17:30:04 [chaals]
agenda+ More agenda setting
17:52:04 [Arnaud]
Arnaud has joined #chairing
17:53:46 [Zakim]
Team_ChTr()2:00PM has now started
17:53:53 [Zakim]
+ +1.303.579.aaaa
17:55:54 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.324.aabb
17:57:28 [Zakim]
- +1.617.324.aabb
17:57:50 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.324.aacc
17:57:57 [Zakim]
17:58:34 [carybran]
carybran has joined #chairing
17:58:52 [sandro]
sandro has joined #chairing
17:59:26 [Zakim]
17:59:35 [chaals]
zakim, [ip is me
17:59:35 [Zakim]
+chaals; got it
17:59:53 [MarkS]
MarkS has joined #chairing
17:59:54 [deiu]
deiu has joined #chairing
17:59:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.831.458.aadd
18:00:02 [Zakim]
18:00:17 [Judy]
Judy has joined #chairing
18:00:59 [chaals]
zakim, aaaa is Sol-NAB
18:00:59 [Zakim]
+Sol-NAB; got it
18:01:03 [carybran]
831 number is Cary Bran w/Plantronics
18:01:19 [chaals]
zakim, aadd is Cary-Plantronics
18:01:19 [Zakim]
+Cary-Plantronics; got it
18:01:57 [Zakim]
18:02:12 [chaals]
zakim, please mute mit
18:02:12 [Zakim]
MIT-32-G524 should now be muted
18:02:23 [jim]
jim has joined #chairing
18:02:23 [sandro]
zakim, MIT-32-G524 has sandro, deiu, MarkS
18:02:23 [Zakim]
+sandro, deiu, MarkS; got it
18:02:48 [chaals]
zakim, aacc is Recording-bot
18:02:48 [Zakim]
+Recording-bot; got it
18:03:22 [deiu]
I can scribe.
18:03:34 [chaals]
scribeNick: deiu
18:03:41 [deiu]
scribe: Andrei Sambra
18:04:19 [Zakim]
18:05:03 [Zakim]
18:05:20 [chaals]
-> Wiki page for this topic
18:05:26 [Zakim]
18:05:54 [ddahl]
ddahl has joined #chairing
18:05:56 [jeremie]
jeremie has joined #chairing
18:06:02 [jeremie]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
18:06:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sol-NAB, Recording-bot, MIT-32-G524 (muted), chaals, Cary-Plantronics, Judy, Jim_Allan, Arnaud, AWK, W3C-systeam-office
18:06:04 [Zakim]
MIT-32-G524 has sandro, deiu, MarkS
18:06:15 [ted]
ted has joined #chairing
18:06:15 [chaals]
18:06:20 [jeremie]
Zakim, W3C-systeam-office has me and ted
18:06:20 [Zakim]
+jeremie, ted; got it
18:06:29 [chaals]
Zakim, take up item 1
18:06:29 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Introductions" taken up [from chaals]
18:06:45 [Zakim]
18:06:50 [deiu]
chaals: I will begin by asking people to introduce themselves for 30 secs
18:07:00 [deiu]
... what group you're working in, etc.
18:07:10 [deiu]
... I will start: my name is Charles
18:07:23 [deiu]
... I am co-chair of the accessibility group
18:07:34 [deiu]
... let's go with the order Zakim gives me
18:08:03 [chaals]
ack mit
18:08:11 [deiu]
[people introducing themselves]
18:08:39 [chaals]
Sandro_Hawke: staff contact of 8-9 groups
18:08:53 [deiu]
Sandro introduces himself as staff contact
18:08:53 [chaals]
Mark Sadecki: accessibilty staff contact
18:09:04 [deiu]
carybran: I am with Plantronics
18:09:14 [deiu]
Judy: this is Judy with the accessibility team
18:09:38 [deiu]
Jim-Allan: I am the co-chair of the user agent working group
18:09:49 [deiu]
Arnaud: I am Arnaud from IBM, chair of the LDP WG
18:10:03 [deiu]
... and also to-be chair of the upcoming Social Web WG
18:10:21 [deiu]
AWK: I am Andrew, from Adobe
18:10:33 [deiu]
jeremie: I am Jeremie, the W3C webmaster
18:10:35 [Judy]
s/with the accessibility team/with the accessibility team, and with me is Zhang (Kenny) Kun, based at Beihang in Beijing
18:10:53 [deiu]
ted: I am the head of the systeam at W3C
18:11:15 [deiu]
ddahl: I am Debbie, with the user interaction group
18:11:24 [ted]
Ted Guild <>
18:11:27 [chaals]
zakim, close this item
18:11:27 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
18:11:28 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:11:28 [Zakim]
2. Group Dynamics - timing and fatigue [from chaals]
18:11:43 [deiu]
Topic: Group Dynamics
18:11:51 [ddahl]
Debbie Dahl, Chair of Multimodal Interaction and participating in task force on Cognitive Accessibility
18:12:02 [sandro]
18:12:04 [deiu]
chaals: I've changed the page recently, but it doesn't matter if you're familiar with it or not
18:12:33 [deiu]
... one important item is to make sure the group doesn't stretch too long
18:12:48 [deiu]
... people loose focus when they are in the meeting for too long
18:12:57 [deiu]
... so we'll go for 1h and then take a break
18:13:11 [deiu]
... we have 2 hours and at the top of the hour I will take a break
18:13:41 [deiu]
... this is something useful for everyone to do (re. breaks)
18:14:21 [deiu]
... I am hoping to have an interactive session; people will provide their own experience and hopefully have questions
18:14:43 [deiu]
... do people have experience with groups that run for long periods of time?
18:14:57 [deiu]
... are groups productive during long sessions?
18:15:04 [jeremie]
18:15:04 [deiu]
sandro: I'm used to longer sessions
18:15:29 [deiu]
... telecons I'm used to are usually 1h, but in crunch times we sometimes go for almost 2h
18:15:47 [deiu]
... usually we become productive after 45 mins
18:16:11 [chaals]
18:16:14 [deiu]
... during f-2-f meetings we usually take 2 hours
18:16:21 [chaals]
ack me
18:17:20 [deiu]
chaals: when people get really heated off and end up with 2-3 people arguing, or 50-80 people people during f-2-f, then is not good to watch just a few people arguing
18:17:31 [chaals]
zakim, next item
18:17:31 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Group Dynamics - timing and fatigue" taken up [from chaals]
18:17:39 [chaals]
zakim, nextitem
18:17:39 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'nextitem', chaals
18:17:43 [chaals]
zakim, next item
18:17:43 [Zakim]
agendum 2 was just opened, chaals
18:17:49 [chaals]
zakim, close agendum 2
18:17:49 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Group Dynamics - timing and fatigue, closed
18:17:50 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:17:50 [Zakim]
3. More agenda setting [from chaals]
18:18:12 [deiu]
chaals: are there any particular items that you would like to discuss? feel free to put them directly into IRC
18:18:19 [deiu]
... or you can add them to the agenda
18:18:27 [chaals]
agenda+ organising and running meetings (beyond 'process requirements')
18:18:44 [sandro]
agenda: what a chair should do when they have opinions or technical ideas
18:18:49 [sandro]
agenda+ what a chair should do when they have opinions or technical ideas
18:18:52 [chaals]
agenda+ volunteers don't always work to timelines
18:19:15 [chaals]
agenda+ tone, inclusivity...
18:19:39 [carybran]
agenda+ managing conflict
18:19:44 [deiu]
chaals: feel free to keep suggesting things through the rest of the meeting
18:20:02 [chaals]
zakim, take up item 5
18:20:02 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "what a chair should do when they have opinions or technical ideas" taken up [from sandro]
18:20:02 [deiu]
... the topic I am going to take first is sandro's item
18:20:22 [deiu]
chaals: "don't be part of the problem"
18:20:41 [deiu]
... the specific thing is that most chairs are volunteers and they represent a member in a WG
18:20:53 [deiu]
... nearly all chairs have extra ideas they want to present
18:21:16 [deiu]
... what can chairs do to separate their ideas from their chair ones
18:21:25 [deiu]
... I'm looking for specific problems
18:21:31 [chaals]
q+ to suggest that chairs use the queue when they are talking as members
18:21:36 [Arnaud]
18:21:49 [deiu]
sandro: so..if it's a little thing, then the chair will pick someone else to run the meeting for a while
18:21:52 [chaals]
q- later
18:22:27 [chaals]
ack arn
18:22:32 [deiu]
... if there's a proposal made by a chair, then the best solution would be to ask someone else who works for the same organization to propose that item
18:22:59 [deiu]
Arnaud: I am lucky enough to work with people from my company, who represent my interests
18:23:34 [deiu]
... if you have both hats, you need to specify which hat you're wearing: by default you speak as a chair and they mention when they have a personal opinion
18:23:36 [chaals]
ack me
18:23:36 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to suggest that chairs use the queue when they are talking as members
18:23:55 [AWK]
AWK has joined #chairing
18:24:02 [deiu]
chaals: when chairs speak as members with ideas, they should place themselves in the queue
18:24:29 [deiu]
... chairs should not be interrupting everybody; I find it frustrating that chairs sum up what the last person just said
18:24:42 [deiu]
... I don't think chairs represent those people
18:24:58 [deiu]
... it's nice if you can avoid the problem by having another chair, but that's not my case
18:25:19 [deiu]
... in my case I want to be clear about proposing resolutions
18:26:02 [deiu]
... I try to be very clear about proposals, to make it very distinct when proposing formal resolutions
18:26:14 [chaals]
18:26:21 [chaals]
zakim, close item 3
18:26:21 [Zakim]
agendum 3, More agenda setting, closed
18:26:22 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:26:22 [Zakim]
4. organising and running meetings (beyond 'process requirements') [from chaals]
18:26:45 [chaals]
zakim, take up item 8
18:26:45 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "managing conflict" taken up [from carybran]
18:26:53 [deiu]
chaals: managing conflict
18:27:01 [chaals]
Topic: managing conflict
18:27:29 [deiu]
carybran: I've been involved with IETF groups re. managing conflicts
18:27:42 [deiu]
... I'm interested to see how W3C handles them
18:27:53 [deiu]
chaals: there are two kinds of conflicts:
18:28:18 [deiu]
... 1. people have technical disagreements on issues -- I don't have a magic wand to deal with these issues
18:28:51 [deiu]
... if you disagree with someone, the first step is to make sure that you can state their opinion in a way they recognize it (so they see you understood their problem)
18:28:52 [chaals]
-> Difficult Individuals
18:29:19 [deiu]
... a coupld of other helpful things: look for data to break deadlocks
18:29:30 [deiu]
... or how a particular issue impacts the people in the room
18:29:49 [chaals]
s/the people in/the people beyond those in/
18:30:15 [deiu]
... there are people who have particular needs
18:30:25 [deiu]
... those may very well be legitimate needs
18:30:39 [deiu]
... but there are also people who generate conflicts
18:31:21 [deiu]
... I'll start with people who "block the work"
18:31:41 [ddahl]
agenda+ encouraging participation from group members who don't say too much for cultural, language or personality reasons
18:31:48 [shawn]
shawn has joined #chairing
18:31:54 [deiu]
... one of the problems is that it is difficult to tell the difference between people who are blocking progress and volunteers who don't have enough time to get things done
18:32:27 [deiu]
... the most interesting strategy I found is to move the work to a task force
18:32:35 [Zakim]
18:32:59 [deiu]
... if the work happens in a small group where people focus on a specific problem, it becomes harder for people to @@@ negative
18:33:17 [Zakim]
18:33:20 [sandro]
18:33:26 [deiu]
... in a smaller group, there's no one going along with you if you're being negative, so the group can make progress
18:33:27 [shawn]
ack me
18:33:42 [chaals]
ack sand
18:33:47 [shawn]
zakim, mute me
18:33:47 [Zakim]
Shawn should now be muted
18:33:54 [deiu]
shawn: this is Shawn, I am W3C staff and co-chair of education outreach
18:34:43 [deiu]
sandro: whenever anybody raises a problem and it seems they might be causing trouble, then you can have them take an action item
18:35:14 [Judy]
18:35:16 [chaals]
[I am reminded of Connolly's law - those who do the work make the rules]
18:35:19 [chaals]
ack ju
18:35:23 [deiu]
... if people cause trouble by not getting their work done, then you can "threaten" them to get someone else to help and potentially take over their action item
18:35:32 [deiu]
Judy: I am a bit concerned about that
18:36:10 [deiu]
... I understand chaals issue, but it almost sounds that if someone is raising an unpopular view, you might be trying to give them an action item
18:36:16 [chaals]
q+ to support allowing others to help
18:36:25 [chaals]
ack me
18:36:25 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to support allowing others to help
18:36:31 [deiu]
sandro: I can see there is a balance there
18:36:47 [deiu]
chaals: people who are blocking the group are one of the biggest threats
18:37:09 [deiu]
... the idea of getting someone to help with a person that is not succeeding in their action is surely helpful
18:37:46 [Zakim]
18:37:51 [deiu]
... generally I welcome help, but it's not the case with people who are just trying to get you to waste time
18:37:51 [Judy]
s/to give them an action item/to make them take an action item in order to be able to express their perspective; but we need different perspectives/
18:37:54 [deiu]
... I'd like to move to other examples
18:38:29 [deiu]
... there are also people who try to chair from the floor and basically take over the chair's work
18:38:53 [deiu]
... I personally don't really mind, as I can get to participate as a member of the group
18:38:59 [deiu]
... my concern is with people who are being ignored
18:39:47 [deiu]
... some people are less likely to speak up (for whatever reasons)
18:39:56 [deiu]
... the chair's role is to make sure everyone's voice is head
18:40:05 [deiu]
18:40:11 [sandro]
18:40:15 [chaals]
ack sand
18:40:20 [deiu]
... I find this a challenging part of being a chair
18:40:38 [chaals]
Topic: getting broad input
18:40:39 [deiu]
sandro: my answer is to go around the room and put everybody on the spot, thus allowing people to speak up
18:40:55 [chaals]
18:40:58 [deiu]
... it feels awkward to just pick specific people
18:41:01 [chaals]
ack me
18:41:09 [deiu]
... and it will not work in an 80 person group
18:41:25 [deiu]
chaals: going around an 80 person group and asking everyone to speak up will not work
18:41:41 [deiu]
... if you ask someone for an opinion, they may not want to give you their opinion
18:41:52 [sandro]
18:42:19 [chaals]
ack san
18:42:22 [deiu]
... I tend to ask specific people, but there are also back-channels
18:42:37 [deiu]
sandro: even right now you and I are speaking 90% of the time
18:42:46 [ddahl]
18:42:52 [chaals]
ack dd
18:42:56 [deiu]
... maybe we can try to do just that right now
18:43:18 [deiu]
ddahl: if you have a small group, it doesn't really address the problem
18:43:33 [deiu]
... the only way to effectively do that is to do it offline (email?)
18:44:23 [chaals]
agenda+ working outside the group
18:44:31 [deiu]
... now we have a group of Japanese people who are more comfortable to talk among themselves and they act as a group
18:44:49 [chaals]
18:44:57 [chaals]
ack me
18:44:57 [deiu]
... they get a lot more done when they speak in a language they are comfortable with
18:45:10 [deiu]
chaals: how do you handle the dialog with the Japanese?
18:45:37 [deiu]
ddahl: it's almost like dealing with an interpreter -- a slower process that is not ideal
18:45:49 [deiu]
... we're still getting input that we wouldn't get at all otherwise
18:46:05 [deiu]
chaals: do you manage to have a dialog when an issue arises?
18:46:33 [deiu]
ddahl: we have a person that represents the Japanese group, but it's a non-real time dialog
18:46:51 [deiu]
chaals: standards tend not to happen in real time anyway
18:47:25 [deiu]
... this relates to another issue: if you take too much of people's time, people will walk away
18:47:54 [deiu]
... we find people who don't want to listen to people who are not fast and clear in their responses
18:48:11 [deiu]
... does anyone have experience working with people like that?
18:48:35 [deiu]
ddahl: sometimes the chair has to advocate for people who are taking longer to come up with responses
18:48:59 [deiu]
... "wait for X or Y to speak up; give them a chance"
18:49:36 [deiu]
chaals: people walk away if others are taking too much time to come up with solutions/responses
18:49:48 [chaals]
18:49:51 [deiu]
... we don't really have a strategy
18:50:03 [chaals]
zakim, close item 8
18:50:03 [Zakim]
agendum 8, managing conflict, closed
18:50:04 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:50:04 [Zakim]
4. organising and running meetings (beyond 'process requirements') [from chaals]
18:50:06 [chaals]
zakim, close item 9
18:50:06 [Zakim]
agendum 9, encouraging participation from group members who don't say too much for cultural, language or personality reasons, closed
18:50:09 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:50:09 [Zakim]
4. organising and running meetings (beyond 'process requirements') [from chaals]
18:50:46 [chaals]
zakim, take up item 6
18:50:46 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "volunteers don't always work to timelines" taken up [from chaals]
18:51:12 [deiu]
chaals: this is a different issue, not really a conflict scenario
18:51:34 [deiu]
... you give people an action item that is supposed to take an X amount of time but it doesn't happen in X
18:51:44 [deiu]
... I had a recent case like that
18:52:22 [deiu]
... the obvious solution was to ask someone else to help, which helped a bit
18:52:51 [deiu]
... but until the two of us sat down and worked together, no work was done
18:53:11 [deiu]
... are there other strategies people are using to deal with this case?
18:53:33 [ddahl]
18:53:37 [chaals]
ack dd
18:54:11 [deiu]
ddahl: a lot of time people won't respond when nagged about it, and guilt sets in
18:54:25 [Zakim]
18:54:29 [MarkS]
18:55:03 [deiu]
chaals: in my case (when it was me) the discussion came up this morning
18:55:09 [chaals]
-> this item, from this morning's discussion
18:55:33 [deiu]
... one idea was to break down tasks into smaller pieces that are easily achievable
18:56:11 [deiu]
[ chaals going over minutes ]
18:56:32 [deiu]
chaals: the other possibility is action item reviews
18:56:57 [deiu]
... this gives the rest of the group a sense of how much time people spend making progress on actions
18:57:18 [sandro]
18:57:23 [chaals]
ack san
18:57:23 [deiu]
... using the review process (not to make people feel bad) to make the group understand how much they depend on someone
18:57:57 [deiu]
sandro: I'm not sure if that example was serious...because the idea of people having 40 action items seems strange
18:58:31 [deiu]
... the chair would usually avoid giving more action items to a person that cannot handle the load
18:58:33 [Zakim]
+ +1.503.264.aaee
18:58:44 [deiu]
chaals: I've seen people with long lists of action items
18:59:13 [Abramski]
Abramski has joined #chairing
18:59:15 [deiu]
... I guess it depends if the group is not regularly reviewing actions
18:59:53 [deiu]
Abramski: I am Adam, with the W3C automotive platform group
19:00:19 [deiu]
chaals: I would like to remind people that this call is being recorded and that we should take a break
19:00:31 [deiu]
... does anyone object to taking 10 mins off?
19:00:55 [deiu]
... let's adjourn the call for 10 mins; do people want to continue this discussion into the second hour?
19:01:18 [deiu]
... would you like to do something else instead? we can continue by email
19:01:31 [AWK]
I'd rather continue offline
19:01:31 [Judy]
19:01:31 [chaals]
19:01:37 [Arnaud]
I don't have another 1h to dedicate to this but don't let that stop you
19:01:56 [carybran]
offline is fine with me
19:02:02 [deiu]
chaals: 3/4 came up in this morning's discussion (you can take a look at the minutes)
19:02:31 [deiu]
... I propose to adjourn the meeting
19:02:41 [deiu]
... please update the wiki
19:03:24 [deiu]
Sol: the question I have (while ok with adjourning) was about my obligation as the AC and AB
19:03:47 [Judy]
s/as the AC and AB/as the AC for NAB/
19:03:56 [deiu]
chaals: this meeting was about chairs/chairing, but you can write to me and I'll respond with details about your question
19:04:14 [Zakim]
19:04:20 [deiu]
chaals: thank you for turning up!
19:04:29 [deiu]
Meeting adjourned!
19:04:29 [Zakim]
19:04:31 [Zakim]
19:04:32 [Zakim]
19:04:32 [Zakim]
19:04:33 [Zakim]
- +1.503.264.aaee
19:04:34 [Zakim]
19:04:36 [Zakim]
19:04:36 [Zakim]
19:04:37 [Zakim]
19:04:37 [Zakim]
19:04:42 [carybran]
carybran has left #chairing
19:04:50 [chaals]
zakim, aaee was abramski
19:04:50 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'aaee was abramski', chaals
19:05:00 [chaals]
zakim, aaee is abramski
19:05:00 [Zakim]
sorry, chaals, I do not recognize a party named 'aaee'
19:05:05 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:05:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate chaals
19:05:17 [chaals]
zakim, bye
19:05:17 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.303.579.aaaa, +1.617.324.aabb, +1.617.324.aacc, [IPcaller], chaals, +1.831.458.aadd, Judy, Sol-NAB, Cary-Plantronics, Jim_Allan,
19:05:17 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #chairing
19:05:20 [Zakim]
... sandro, deiu, MarkS, Recording-bot, Arnaud, AWK, jeremie, ted, Debbie_Dahl, Shawn, +1.503.264.aaee
19:06:07 [shawn]
shawn has left #chairing
19:13:44 [jeremie]
jeremie has left #chairing
19:17:49 [ddahl]
ddahl has left #chairing