IRC log of ua on 2014-06-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:31:58 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/05-ua-irc
16:32:00 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:32:00 [Zakim]
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16:32:02 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
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ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 28 minutes
16:32:03 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:32:03 [trackbot]
Date: 05 June 2014
16:32:11 [allanj]
rrsagent, set logs public
16:32:19 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/05-ua-minutes.html allanj
16:33:08 [allanj]
Chair: Jim Allan and Kelly Ford
16:33:58 [allanj]
agenda+ Proposed response to MS06
16:34:00 [allanj]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014AprJun/0051.html
16:34:01 [allanj]
agenda+ comments -start with MS07
16:35:28 [allanj]
agenda+ EH13: Declarations and not applicable
16:43:07 [jeanne]
agenda+ announcement: TPAC F2F is scheduled
17:00:20 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
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+Jeanne
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+Kim_Patch
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KimPatch has joined #ua
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+Jim_Allan
17:04:08 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
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+Greg_Lowney
17:04:50 [kford]
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17:05:51 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:05:58 [Jan]
zakim, code?
17:05:58 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
17:06:29 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:06:30 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:06:49 [Jan]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
17:06:49 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
17:07:24 [allanj]
zakim, {Microsoft] is really Kelly
17:07:24 [Zakim]
sorry, allanj, I do not recognize a party named '{Microsoft]'
17:07:34 [allanj]
zakim, [Microsoft] is really Kelly
17:07:34 [Zakim]
+Kelly; got it
17:10:46 [allanj]
scribe: allanj
17:11:09 [allanj]
scribe-nick: jim
17:11:36 [allanj]
zakim, agenda?
17:11:36 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
17:11:38 [Zakim]
1. Proposed response to MS06 [from allanj]
17:11:38 [Zakim]
2. comments -start with MS07 [from allanj]
17:11:38 [Zakim]
3. EH13: Declarations and not applicable [from allanj]
17:11:38 [Zakim]
4. announcement: TPAC F2F is scheduled [from jeanne]
17:12:10 [allanj]
topic: TPAC f2f announcement
17:13:56 [kford_]
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17:14:02 [allanj]
UAAG to meet Monday and Tues. in Santa Clara, Oct 27 - 29
17:14:37 [allanj]
regrets: Eric
17:15:23 [kford__]
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17:15:26 [allanj]
could meet a day early and meet with food on your own
17:15:45 [Jan]
+1 to 3 days (incl Sunday)
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17:17:14 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to talk to AWK about UAWG meeting at TPAC on Sunday
17:17:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-984 - Talk to awk about uawg meeting at tpac on sunday [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-06-12].
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17:17:47 [allanj]
close item 4
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17:18:08 [allanj]
Topic: Proposed response to MS06
17:18:49 [allanj]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014AprJun/0051.html
17:19:23 [allanj]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2014/LCcomments.html
17:20:46 [allanj]
js: will remove last sentence.
17:21:18 [allanj]
ja: any comments, objections to MS06 response...
17:21:22 [allanj]
none heard
17:21:36 [allanj]
js: added response to document.
17:21:45 [allanj]
zakim, close item 1
17:21:45 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Proposed response to MS06, closed
17:21:46 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:21:46 [Zakim]
2. comments -start with MS07 [from allanj]
17:24:08 [allanj]
Topic: EH13
17:24:10 [allanj]
EH13: What are the allowable reasons that a success criterion (for a certain conformance level) can be “not applicable.” Is the only allowable reason that the capability/feature is not supported (#7) or could it also be that the developer has chosen to exclude a web content technology from the claim (#8). Not clear.
17:24:42 [allanj]
applies to Components of Conformance Claims #9
17:25:07 [allanj]
http://jspellman.github.io/UAAG/UAAG20/#conformance
17:27:07 [allanj]
js: concerned about complexity of Greg's previous proposal
17:27:28 [allanj]
... history of WCAG and technology supported
17:29:11 [Jan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JanMar/0030.html
17:29:50 [Jan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JanMar/0026.html
17:29:55 [allanj]
greg's original proposal
17:29:56 [allanj]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JanMar/0010.html
17:30:20 [Greg]
9. Declarations: For each success criterion, provide a declaration of either
17:30:21 [Greg]
a. whether or not the success criterion has been satisfied; or
17:30:23 [Greg]
b. declaration that the success criterion is not applicable and a rationale for why not, *from the following choices:
17:30:24 [Greg]
1. NA-Platform: not applicable due constraints of the platform, per Paragraph 7 above (e.g. color handling on a monochrome device, video handling in a purely audio browser, or interprocess communication on an operating system that does not support multitasking). Describe the specific platform limitation.
17:30:26 [Greg]
2. NA-Input: not applicable due to a constrained input set (e.g. a help system that only displays the HTML files included with the product)
17:30:27 [Greg]
3. NA-Output: not applicable due to intentionally limited output modalities (e.g. video handling in a browser that only does audio output, even though the platform may support video)*
17:31:54 [allanj]
jr: conformance claim based on included technologies. e.g. ff claim conformance with html5 but not svg
17:32:14 [allanj]
... the exclusion of svg happens before conformance
17:33:04 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG20/#conformance
17:33:23 [allanj]
jr: inclusion is in #8. if something is not on the list then it is not conformant
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17:36:05 [allanj]
js: the first part...the SC is not applicable ... we may still have an issue. the second half of EH13 comment is ok.
17:36:46 [allanj]
jr: greg has a good list. we don't need to code them.
17:37:06 [allanj]
js: the list could be example rather than the only ones.
17:37:31 [allanj]
... when we think of everything we don't want to allow...creates problems long term
17:37:51 [allanj]
... the list would be some of the reasons, not the only reasons.
17:38:49 [allanj]
gl: people will create tortured logic to get an NA
17:39:02 [allanj]
jr: the list is very broad, and should be ok.
17:39:11 [allanj]
ja: +1
17:40:42 [allanj]
Declarations: For each success criterion, provide a declaration of either
17:40:43 [allanj]
whether or not the success criterion has been satisfied; or
17:40:45 [allanj]
declaration that the success criterion is not applicable and a rationale for why not
17:40:57 [Greg]
My reason for having specific codes for them to choose from was to avoid having a claimant fill in the form with a free-form sentence that doesn't make it clear to the reader what their rationale is, or which category of NA it fits into.
17:41:36 [allanj]
1. Platform: not applicable due constraints of the platform, per Paragraph 7 above (e.g. color handling on a monochrome device, video handling in a purely audio browser, or interprocess communication on an operating system that does not support multitasking). Describe the specific platform limitation.
17:41:37 [Greg]
If we had a conformance claim template or form, it could also have check boxes for the different categories, in addition to space for explanatory text.
17:41:38 [allanj]
2. Input: not applicable due to a constrained input set (e.g. a help system that only displays the HTML files included with the product)
17:41:39 [allanj]
3. Output: not applicable due to intentionally limited output modalities (e.g. video handling in a browser that only does audio output, even though the platform may support video)*
17:42:49 [allanj]
s/)*/)
17:44:42 [allanj]
9. Declarations: For each success criterion, provide a declaration of either
17:44:43 [allanj]
a. whether or not the success criterion has been satisfied; or
17:44:45 [allanj]
b. declaration that the success criterion is not applicable and a rationale for why not
17:44:46 [allanj]
1. Platform: not applicable due constraints of the platform, per Paragraph 7 above (e.g. color handling on a monochrome device, video handling in a purely audio browser, or interprocess communication on an operating system that does not support multitasking). Describe the specific platform limitation.
17:44:48 [allanj]
2. Input: not applicable due to a constrained input set (e.g. a help system that only displays the HTML files included with the product)
17:44:49 [allanj]
3. Output: not applicable due to intentionally limited output modalities (e.g. video handling in a browser that only does audio output, even though the platform may support video)
17:46:09 [allanj]
kf: what happens if somebody has something not on this list
17:46:25 [allanj]
gl: there could be others, who knows...
17:46:48 [allanj]
gl: could add 4. Other as a catch all...may be abused
17:46:49 [Greg]
If you want to add a (4) Other that's okay, but I anticipate it would be abused.
17:48:04 [jeanne]
Output: not applicable due to intentionally limited output modalities (e.g. video handling in a browser that only does audio output, even though the platform may support video)
17:48:34 [kford_]
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17:48:40 [allanj]
kf: ok with with list.
17:49:12 [jeanne]
b. Output: not applicable due to intentionally limited output modalities (e.g. video handling in a browser that only does audio output, even though the platform may support video)
17:49:29 [jeanne]
bad
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17:50:10 [jeanne]
b. declaration that the success criterion is not applicable and a rationale for why not, from the following choices:
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17:51:04 [Greg]
Back in 2013 I suggested adding the following to 7:
17:51:05 [Greg]
Note: For the purpose of this paragraph, platform includes only the hardware, operating system, or cross-platform operating environment, as these generally cannot be replaced without substantially changing the target market. For example, if the user agent runs on an operating system that does not provide platform accessibility services, a conformance claim for this configuration can list the...
17:51:07 [Greg]
...result for that success criterion as “Not applicable due to platform limitations”, and describe the specific platform limitation. However, if the user agent was implemented using a widget library that does not support the platform accessibility services, the user agent could not claim an exemption based on that design decision.
17:53:20 [allanj]
js: if someone makes a UA on multiple platforms, and it fails UAAG on all platforms then it is a poor choice of platform
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17:54:07 [allanj]
gl: but it can't do something that the platform won't allow
17:54:47 [allanj]
js: but it may be what users need regardless of platform capabilities
17:55:13 [allanj]
jr: ATAG has partial conformance due to platform limitations
17:55:38 [Jan]
TAG2: http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20/#conf-levels
17:59:01 [allanj]
discussion of platform vs library
17:59:29 [allanj]
gl: kde or gnome, are they platform or libraries.
18:01:59 [allanj]
add Note to 7?
18:02:13 [allanj]
js: -1
18:03:38 [allanj]
jr: they have to list what widget sets they choose, and declare it publicly that "we chose this knowing it wouldn't work." would be tough to do.
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18:04:04 [allanj]
js: we don't want to keep track of all the libraries that comply with UAAG
18:04:12 [allanj]
kp: -1
18:04:22 [allanj]
jr: -1
18:04:43 [allanj]
kf: -1 would like to put it somewhere .... it is good information
18:06:24 [allanj]
jim will put in wiki. will craft a rationale for not accepting the note.
18:07:11 [allanj]
Topic: Comment MS07 Think beyond desktop computers
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18:08:52 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:08:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/05-ua-minutes.html jeanne
18:08:57 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:10:20 [Greg]
My suggested response was merely "Again, if there are specific success criteria that you feel can better address devices with small screens and which perhaps lack keyboard input, please point them out."
18:10:34 [kford_]
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18:12:07 [Greg]
I would add something like "Keep in mind that SC related to keyboard are not just about devices with physical keyboard, but also keyboard emulators and API that allows discrete input commands."
18:12:42 [allanj]
js: waiting on a response about indieUI.
18:13:00 [allanj]
Core Accessibility API Mappings - http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/implementation/aria-implementation.html
18:16:11 [allanj]
ja: we have given this a best faith effort. UAWG believes it address mobile adequately
18:16:37 [allanj]
js: would like to use other language from IndieUI.
18:17:14 [allanj]
js: would like to wait. He has a good point. we should review to see if we can improve.
18:17:48 [allanj]
topic: MS08 Realistic expectation of the end users
18:18:11 [allanj]
related to 1.7 stylesheets
18:20:34 [Greg]
I originally commented "I agree with the commenters that relying on user style sheets is a problematic approach to the problem of inadequately designed web content. Unfortunately, at this point we are not aware of any better solutions being proposed. Even if it is not available to most users, it provides a fall-back solution that would be availble to some, and potentially to more in the...
18:20:35 [Greg]
...future if efforts are made to share accessible alternative style sheets (e.g. userstyles.org). If the reviewers have suggestions for additional features that the user agent can provide, by all means please make them known."
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18:22:38 [allanj]
ja: the other solution would be for UA to provide a robust interface for the user to make the content match their requirements
18:23:07 [allanj]
kf: "we welcome feedback on realistic alternatives"
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18:27:44 [allanj]
jr: functionally, we want the user to be able to make the content meet their needs.
18:28:24 [allanj]
js: we what the UA to make it easy for the user to modify rendering of content.
18:28:30 [jeanne]
One solution that the group considered was to require the user agent to provide robust custom styling interface to meet the users requirements. We want to give users rich customization options to meet their needs. We thought that improving the usability of user stylesheets was a better alternative.
18:29:43 [jeanne]
UAWG agrees with the commenter that relying on user style sheets is a problematic approach to the problem of inadequately designed web content. Unfortunately, at this point we are not aware of any better solutions being proposed. Even if it is not available to most users, it provides a fall-back solution that would be availble to some, and potentially to more in the future if efforts are made to
18:29:43 [jeanne]
share accessible alternative style sheets (e.g. userstyles.org). One solution that the group considered was to require the user agent to provide robust custom styling interface to meet the users requirements. We want to give users rich customization options to meet their needs. We thought that improving the usability of user stylesheets was a more realistic alternative at this time. We welcome
18:29:44 [jeanne]
feedback on realistic alternatives.
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18:32:49 [Zakim]
-Jan
18:33:30 [jeanne]
UAWG agrees with the commenter that relying on user style sheets is a problematic approach to the problem of inadequately designed web content. Unfortunately, at this point we are not aware of any better solutions being proposed. Even if customized user stylesheets are not available to most users, they provide a fall-back solution that would be availble to some users, and potentially to more users
18:33:30 [jeanne]
in the future if efforts are made to share accessible alternative style sheets (e.g. userstyles.org). One solution that the group considered was to require the user agent to provide robust custom styling interface to meet the users requirements in order to give users rich customization options to meet their needs. We thought that improving the usability of user stylesheets was a more realistic
18:33:31 [jeanne]
alternative at this time.
18:34:57 [allanj]
resolution: MS09 done
18:35:09 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:35:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/05-ua-minutes.html allanj
18:35:44 [allanj]
s/MS09/MS08
18:35:48 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:35:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/05-ua-minutes.html allanj
18:36:37 [Zakim]
-Kelly
18:37:17 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
18:38:11 [allanj]
Resolution: EH13 done
18:38:47 [Zakim]
-Greg_Lowney
18:38:51 [allanj]
Resolution: MS06 done
18:39:52 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:39:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/05-ua-minutes.html jeanne
18:39:59 [jeanne]
rrsagent, bye
18:39:59 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/05-ua-actions.rdf :
18:39:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to talk to AWK about UAWG meeting at TPAC on Sunday [1]
18:39:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/05-ua-irc#T17-17-14