15:13:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
15:13:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/06/02-coga-irc
15:13:48 <Lisa_Seeman> zakim, this will be WAI_CogTF
15:13:48 <Zakim> ok, Lisa_Seeman; I see WAI_CogTF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 47 minutes
15:14:07 <Lisa_Seeman> chair: Lisa_Seeman
15:23:12 <Lisa_Seeman> regrets: Deborah Dahl, Steve Lee
15:23:42 <Lisa_Seeman> agenda: this
15:23:43 <Lisa_Seeman>   agenda+ preview agenda
15:23:45 <Lisa_Seeman>   agenda+ set scribe
15:23:46 <Lisa_Seeman>   agenda+ review actions, groups
15:23:48 <Lisa_Seeman>   agenda+ security protocols review
15:23:49 <Lisa_Seeman>   agenda+ brainstorming techniques
15:23:51 <Lisa_Seeman>   agenda+ what other technologies and approaches should we be reviewing
15:23:52 <Lisa_Seeman>  agenda+ user group findings
15:23:54 <Lisa_Seeman> 
15:23:55 <Lisa_Seeman>   agenda+ be done
15:44:43 <JohnRochford> JohnRochford has joined #coga
15:52:01 <janina> janina has joined #coga
15:53:24 <KateDeibel> KateDeibel has joined #coga
15:54:26 <Zakim> WAI_CogTF()12:00PM has now started
15:54:33 <Zakim> +??P3
15:56:18 <Lisa_Seeman> zakim, ??P3 is Lisa_Seeman
15:56:18 <Zakim> +Lisa_Seeman; got it
15:58:26 <Zakim> +??P18
15:58:39 <Zakim> + +1.804.986.aaaa
15:58:43 <Zakim> +JohnRochford
15:59:23 <KateDeibel> P18 is KateDeibel
15:59:34 <Zakim> +Suzann_Keohane
15:59:46 <KateDeibel> zakim, P18 is KateDeibel
15:59:46 <Zakim> sorry, KateDeibel, I do not recognize a party named 'P18'
15:59:58 <KateDeibel> zakim, ??P18 is KateDeibel
15:59:58 <Zakim> +KateDeibel; got it
16:00:13 <Tony_Doran> Tony_Doran has joined #coga
16:00:34 <Susann_Keohane> Susann_Keohane has joined #coga
16:00:37 <JohnRochford> I am hearing a significant echo.
16:00:45 <Susann_Keohane> me too
16:01:17 <Zakim> +Tony_Doran
16:01:24 <slee> slee has joined #coga
16:01:35 <JohnRochford> No more echo.
16:01:47 <Lisa_Seeman> zakim, +1.804.986.aaaa is Suzann_Keohane
16:01:47 <Zakim> +Suzann_Keohane; got it
16:02:11 <Lisa_Seeman> zakim, who's here?
16:02:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Lisa_Seeman, KateDeibel, Suzann_Keohane.a, JohnRochford, Suzann_Keohane, Tony_Doran
16:02:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see slee, Susann_Keohane, Tony_Doran, KateDeibel, janina, JohnRochford, RRSAgent, Zakim, Lisa_Seeman, MichaelC, trackbot
16:02:17 <neilmilliken> neilmilliken has joined #coga
16:02:32 <Susann_Keohane> zakin, +1.512.445.5989 is Susann Keohane
16:02:46 <Susann_Keohane> zakim, 1.512.445.5989 is Susann Keohane
16:02:46 <Zakim> I don't understand '1.512.445.5989 is Susann Keohane', Susann_Keohane
16:03:08 <Susann_Keohane> zakim, 1.512.445.5989 is Susann_Keohane
16:03:08 <Zakim> sorry, Susann_Keohane, I do not recognize a party named '1.512.445.5989'
16:03:08 <JohnRochford> zakim, not zakin
16:03:10 <Zakim> I don't understand 'not zakin', JohnRochford
16:03:18 <Liddy> Liddy has joined #coga
16:04:06 <neilmilliken> running a few mins late due to public transport
16:04:38 <neilmilliken> will dial in shortly
16:05:05 <Zakim> +??P9
16:05:26 <Tony_Doran> significant call degradation happening
16:05:31 <Zakim> -??P9
16:05:32 <Tony_Doran> is this just me?
16:05:41 <JohnRochford> Echo again
16:05:44 <allanj> allanj has joined #coga
16:06:13 <Zakim> +??P2
16:06:27 <Zakim> +Jim_Allan
16:06:40 <Tony_Doran> echo and degradation
16:07:30 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:08:11 <Tony_Doran> Yes!
16:08:18 <Tony_Doran> very bad breakup
16:08:21 <KateDeibel> i just switched to headset mike
16:08:24 <allanj> all ok here
16:08:32 <Tony_Doran> Ok will rejoin
16:08:38 <Tony_Doran> stuck on voip though :(
16:08:48 <Zakim> -Tony_Doran
16:08:59 <allanj> scribe: allanj
16:09:04 <Lisa_Seeman> scribe: allanj
16:09:16 <Liddy> problem with line
16:09:22 <Lisa_Seeman>  zakim, next item
16:09:22 <Zakim> agendum 1. "preview agenda" taken up [from Lisa_Seeman]
16:09:23 <MichaelC> zakim, IPcaller is Liddy_Nevile
16:09:23 <Zakim> +Liddy_Nevile; got it
16:09:39 <Zakim> +Tony_Doran
16:09:42 <MichaelC> zakim, Suzann_Keohane.a is Debra_Ruh
16:09:42 <Zakim> +Debra_Ruh; got it
16:09:47 <Tony_Doran> Just rejoined
16:09:58 <allanj> agenda?
16:10:09 <Liddy> Liddy just joined
16:10:14 <Zakim> -Liddy_Nevile
16:10:21 <Tony_Doran> seems better :)
16:10:41 <Tony_Doran> Nope - gone to pot again. Will stick it out
16:10:50 <Lisa_Seeman> zakim, next item
16:10:50 <Zakim> agendum 2. "set scribe" taken up [from Lisa_Seeman]
16:10:51 <JohnRochford_> JohnRochford_ has joined #coga
16:11:11 <allanj> open item 3
16:11:13 <Lisa_Seeman> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/track/actions/
16:13:54 <ea> ea has joined #coga
16:14:22 <allanj> dr: Down's review. going to send to Lisa. included 3 case studies. will put on wiki shortly after private review
16:14:30 <KateDeibel> zakim, unmute me
16:14:32 <Zakim> KateDeibel should no longer be muted
16:15:51 <allanj> close action-9
16:15:51 <trackbot> Closed action-9.
16:16:21 <allanj> close action-4
16:16:21 <trackbot> Closed action-4.
16:16:23 <Lisa_Seeman> close action-4
16:16:23 <trackbot> Closed action-4.
16:16:32 <JohnRochford_> Action 4 should be removed, because Dr. Kinshuk is responsible for it, not I.
16:16:32 <trackbot> Error finding '4'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/track/users>.
16:16:47 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:17:10 <Tony_Doran> call quality is awful here, only getting 50% of what is being said. Going to reconnect.
16:17:16 <Lisa_Seeman> zakim, +[IPcaller] is EA
16:17:16 <Zakim> sorry, Lisa_Seeman, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
16:17:26 <Zakim> -Tony_Doran
16:17:28 <Lisa_Seeman> 	zakim, [IPcaller] is EA
16:17:28 <Zakim> +EA; got it
16:17:36 <Lisa_Seeman>  zakim, next item
16:17:36 <Zakim> agendum 2. "set scribe" taken up [from Lisa_Seeman]
16:17:41 <allanj> close item 3
16:17:49 <allanj> open item 4
16:18:21 <allanj> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/WD-UISecurity-20140318/
16:18:44 <Zakim> +Tony_Doran
16:18:49 <Lisa_Seeman> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/WD-UISecurity-20140318/
16:19:11 <allanj> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cognitive-a11y-tf/2014May/0028.html
16:19:19 <allanj> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cognitive-a11y-tf/2014May/0029.html
16:19:35 <allanj> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cognitive-a11y-tf/2014Jun/0001.html
16:20:17 <allanj> from Lisa: Specifically we should look at section 15
16:20:18 <allanj> Implementation Considerations for Resource Authors
16:20:20 <allanj> This section is non-normative.
16:20:21 <allanj>  When possible, resource authors SHOULD make use of violation reports and the unsafe attribute to apply additional security measures in the application or during back-end processing. Real-time measures in the application might include requiring completion of a CAPTCHA [CAPTCHA-Wikipedia] or responding to an out-of-band confirmation when the UI Security heuristic is triggered. Example...
16:20:23 <allanj> ...back-end measures might include increasing a fraud risk score for individual actions that trigger or targets accounts/resources that frequently trigger UI Security heuristics. To be able to do this effectively, it is likely necessary to encode into the report-uri a unique identifier that can be correlated to the authenticated user and the action they are taking.
16:20:28 <JohnRochford_> background noise
16:20:37 <Zakim> +neil
16:21:14 <Lisa_Seeman> I would suggest changes to section 14 that,
16:21:16 <Lisa_Seeman>  User agents SHOULD provide a means for the user to manually disable enforcement of the Input Protection Heuristic if it interferes with their chosen accessibility technologies.
16:21:17 <Lisa_Seeman> 1. SHOULD should be changed to MUST
16:21:19 <Lisa_Seeman> 2. Add a sentence that the mechanism for manually disable enforcement of the Input Protection Heuristic MUST be operable by assistive technolgies and by people with cognative disabilities who are able to understand the security risk.
16:21:20 <Lisa_Seeman> In section 14 I would add:
16:21:22 <Lisa_Seeman> 2. Mechanisms for CAPTCHA and user verification should included options for people with different disabilities, including cognitive disabilities, people with impaired visual and auditory discrimination skills and for different modalities. For example, if  CAPTCHA or user verification  require  biometrics  a choice should be offered of what biometrics to use,  as people with different...
16:21:23 <Lisa_Seeman> ...disabilities may be precluded from one or more  specific  biometric mechanism.
16:21:56 <neilmilliken_> neilmilliken_ has joined #coga
16:22:38 <allanj> jr: in Section 15should focus on CAPTCHA, the rest of 15 is back end features, that users would not see
16:22:53 <allanj> s/15should/15 should
16:23:30 <ea> I agree with your comments
16:23:57 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:23:58 <Lisa_Seeman> q?
16:24:02 <allanj> dr: +1 to jr comments
16:24:31 <neilmilliken_> 2 factor authenitcation
16:24:57 <allanj> kd: 'real time measures' - there are new security measures that require time tokens, that can expire. folks may have issues with them
16:25:04 <neilmilliken_> its a real problem for me
16:25:31 <neilmilliken_> my bank has just rolled this out and I am now considering changing bank
16:25:34 <Tony_Doran> Agree on the captcha stuff
16:25:36 <allanj> ... the time limit can be very short, there is a need for alternative usage, timing, which window has the code
16:25:46 <allanj> ... can I remember the 6 digits, etc
16:26:02 <allanj> kd: is that 'real time measure'?
16:26:49 <allanj> ls: 2 step verification is a problem, as is a dependency on short-term memory
16:27:21 <Lisa_Seeman> add 2 step verification - time limit is problem, as is any dependency on short term memory or ability to copy accurately
16:27:25 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:28:05 <Lisa_Seeman> q?
16:28:12 <Lisa_Seeman>  zakim, next item
16:28:12 <Zakim> agendum 2. "set scribe" taken up [from Lisa_Seeman]
16:28:14 <allanj> close item 4
16:28:24 <allanj> close item 2
16:28:27 <Tim> Tim has joined #coga
16:28:54 <allanj> open item 5
16:28:55 <Lisa_Seeman> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/index.php?title=Good_and_bad_practices
16:29:10 <Tony_Doran> Captchas have issues with screen readers and mild visual impairment depending on implementation of captcha etc
16:29:16 <Lisa_Seeman> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/Section_3#Current_proposals
16:31:25 <allanj> ls: document all practices. some are good for some groups and may conflict
16:31:57 <allanj> action: lisa to contact webAim on their user studies on cognitive disabilities
16:31:57 <trackbot> Error finding 'lisa'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/track/users>.
16:32:14 <allanj> action: lisa_S to contact webAim on their user studies on cognitive disabilities
16:32:14 <trackbot> Error finding 'lisa_S'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/track/users>.
16:32:23 <allanj> action: lisa_Seeman to contact webAim on their user studies on cognitive disabilities
16:32:23 <trackbot> Error finding 'lisa_Seeman'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/track/users>.
16:32:36 <allanj> action: Seeman to contact webAim on their user studies on cognitive disabilities
16:32:36 <trackbot> Error finding 'Seeman'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/track/users>.
16:33:05 <MichaelC> ack me
16:33:39 <Lisa_Seeman> https://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=67703&public=1
16:34:06 <allanj> action: Seeman to contact webAim on their user studies on cognitive disabilities
16:34:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-11 - Contact webaim on their user studies on cognitive disabilities [on Lisa Seeman - due 2014-06-09].
16:34:19 <Zakim> +??P12
16:34:30 <janina> akim, ??P12 is me
16:34:41 <janina> zakim, ??P12 is me
16:34:41 <Zakim> +janina; got it
16:35:25 <Zakim> +??P13
16:35:48 <allanj> ls: need good practice for any user group, not that cross all of them.
16:36:04 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P13 is Tim_Boland
16:36:04 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland; got it
16:36:56 <Tony_Doran> Have worked with Widgit
16:37:14 <allanj> dr: interoperability between symbols, have been looking at symbols from different symbol sets (prc, widget, others)
16:38:18 <allanj> ...also sclera. have a voting system in symbols with arabic symbols. can show if you want - 4 symbol sets for the same word
16:38:43 <JohnRochford_> I would like to see that page with the symbol sets.
16:38:59 <allanj> ... important for AAC user
16:39:29 <Zakim> -Debra_Ruh
16:39:44 <allanj> ... PRC Prenke Romich Corp
16:40:01 <ea> http://access.ecs.soton.ac.uk/blog/symboldictionary/
16:40:02 <allanj> s/Prenke/Prentke
16:40:39 <ea> This is a blog for the Arabic Symbol Dictionary Project
16:41:05 <allanj> ls: ?colman instutute. when they design page for folks with Cog. don't use title or alt.
16:41:48 <allanj> ja: or have UA provide a switch to turn off title and alt to prevent distraction
16:42:22 <ea> The Mencap web site has alt tags so it would be interesting if they know about this research http://www.mencap.org.uk/
16:44:14 <JohnRochford_> q+
16:44:23 <allanj> ls: idioms, metaphors are also issues, perhaps an abbr tag with a translation into "english"
16:44:50 <ea> Interestingly many of your points were ones we found useful for localisation projects - different languages and cultures. http://localisation.atbar.org/
16:45:23 <allanj> ls: standard design metaphors are easier to use.
16:45:30 <KateDeibel> q+
16:45:38 <Lisa_Seeman> Q?
16:45:58 <allanj> jr: curious...core set of guidelines for all cogdis, then branch out?
16:46:36 <allanj> kd: huge crossovers, dyslexia, acquired dyslexia, aphasia
16:46:43 <Tony_Doran> Agree with idioms, metaphors. Anything where meaning is abstracted
16:47:14 <allanj> ls: loss of data because session ended is a cross over for all cogdis
16:48:02 <Zakim> -Suzann_Keohane
16:48:14 <allanj> justification is also an issue for other languages (RTL, LTR, vertical), and spacing
16:49:14 <allanj> content differences are also important
16:49:47 <allanj> ls: localization crossover with cogdis.
16:50:01 <JohnRochford_> q+
16:50:31 <allanj> localization can impact on design, languages with long sentence length, and white space on page
16:50:49 <allanj> jr: need a core set
16:51:53 <ea> We have ATbar that does what the toolbar on the BDA site does and as you say you only load it when you want it.
16:51:55 <allanj> kd: dyslexia sites - text presentation - foreground/background color size. have a setting for the site, but not widgets on every page
16:52:34 <JohnRochford_> Follow-up: I'm suggesting we develop a core set of guidelines for all people with cognitive disabilities, then branch out with guidelines specific to disability and to localization.
16:52:34 <ea> atbar.org
16:52:57 <ea> sorry https://www.atbar.org/
16:53:50 <allanj> ja: infinite scroll is an issue for everyone
16:54:21 <Lisa_Seeman> Q?
16:54:29 <Lisa_Seeman> ack john
16:54:32 <allanj> ls: add scroll issues to the list
16:55:04 <allanj> there is also Option overload, presenting all the fonts, or all the colors
16:55:31 <allanj> ... color overlays for stress syndrome...only 8 choices
16:56:07 <Lisa_Seeman> q?
16:56:11 <neilmilliken_> I agree with option overload in theory but I really dislike all 8 choices
16:56:12 <KateDeibel> -q
16:56:15 <Tony_Doran> is ATBar windows only?
16:56:18 <neilmilliken_> q+
16:57:25 <allanj> nm: agree with limiting choice, but choice must be palatable. no answer - but user still needs override
16:57:35 <ea> aah but doesn't the research say you get used to your mint green colour Neil and then you need to change it because the brain gets used to it!!! ;>))
16:58:01 <ea> I agree as well personal preferences win my vote!
16:58:17 <Lisa_Seeman> ack ne
16:58:20 <allanj> ATBar is cross browser plugin not windows
16:58:39 <Tony_Doran> Thanks!
16:59:41 <ea> I am not sure exactly what I have been tasked to do - sorry!
17:00:34 <ea> Did you give each of us a user group
17:00:44 <allanj> ls: need more ideas, so we can test
17:01:02 <allanj> jr: ideas? based on research or real experience
17:01:08 <allanj> ls: any
17:01:43 <allanj> ls: gather, document, test
17:02:06 <allanj> ja: send to the list?
17:02:32 <allanj> ls: talking with kids with Autism...
17:02:46 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
17:02:48 <allanj> nm: what are things that prevent you from doing a task
17:03:02 <allanj> ... what things do you avoid doing on the web?
17:03:34 <allanj> ... avoidance is as important as they do
17:04:47 <allanj> ls: started using travel agent again...websites are too difficult/painful
17:05:01 <allanj> ... data loss is annoying
17:05:49 <Lisa_Seeman> Q?
17:06:21 <allanj> ea: when I joined, was assigned to a group. are we to look for ideas for a particular group?
17:06:39 <allanj> ls: any ideas for any grou
17:06:52 <allanj> ea: this is huge
17:07:22 <allanj> ea: need a frame work for creating ideas
17:07:41 <Zakim> -janina
17:07:44 <allanj> jr: agree, what's the mechanism for dumping ideas?
17:08:30 <JohnRochford_> yes
17:08:48 <allanj> ls: this brainstorming. don't want to restrict flow. do we need a mechanism.
17:09:19 <allanj> ea: teach web a11y, have massive amounts of info to provide to taskforce
17:10:07 <allanj> ... for each element, need research, to document.
17:10:42 <allanj> ... perhaps divide into groups and find ideas for ...
17:11:14 <allanj> ea: are we categorizing by disability, functionality, others
17:11:29 <allanj> ja: prefer functionality
17:12:29 <allanj> ea: looking for direction, how do you want it done
17:12:34 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
17:13:16 <Lisa_Seeman>  https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/index.php?title=Good_and_bad_practices&action=submit
17:13:19 <allanj> ea: where is the structure, what is the link, where can I fill in the gaps
17:14:03 <Lisa_Seeman> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/Section_3#Current_proposals
17:14:10 <ea> Thank you
17:15:30 <allanj> ls: flat design, boundaries for clickable items
17:16:26 <allanj> ls: hearing that Practice page is too broad. perhaps sub-headings (layouts, design paradigms, using symbols)
17:16:48 <allanj> ea: functionality vs disability to list the ideas
17:17:45 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
17:17:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/06/02-coga-minutes.html allanj
17:20:20 <allanj> rrsagent, set logs public
17:20:47 <JohnRochford_> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/Gap_Analysis
17:21:14 <neilmilliken_> I have to drop off now
17:21:17 <Zakim> -neil
17:21:41 <Zakim> -Jim_Allan
17:21:52 <KateDeibel> i'm out as well
17:22:02 <Zakim> -KateDeibel
17:27:35 <Tony_Doran> Sorry I need to drop out
17:27:39 <Tony_Doran> thanks
17:27:46 <Zakim> -Tony_Doran
17:29:00 <Zakim> -JohnRochford
17:35:56 <Lisa_Seeman> zakim, who's here?
17:35:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Lisa_Seeman, EA
17:35:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see ea, allanj, Tony_Doran, janina, RRSAgent, Zakim, Lisa_Seeman, MichaelC, trackbot
17:45:11 <Zakim> -Lisa_Seeman
17:45:15 <Zakim> -EA
17:45:16 <Zakim> WAI_CogTF()12:00PM has ended
17:45:16 <Zakim> Attendees were Lisa_Seeman, JohnRochford, Suzann_Keohane, KateDeibel, Tony_Doran, Michael_Cooper, Jim_Allan, Liddy_Nevile, Debra_Ruh, EA, neil, [IPcaller], janina, Tim_Boland