14:55:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:55:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/05/20-wai-wcag-irc
14:55:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:55:36 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
14:55:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
14:55:38 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:39 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
14:55:39 <trackbot> Date: 20 May 2014
14:55:41 <Joshue108> zakim, agenda?
14:55:41 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
14:55:44 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has now started
14:55:45 <bbailey> bbailey has joined #wai-wcag
14:55:51 <Zakim> + +1.617.766.aaaa
14:56:04 <AWK> zakim, aaaa is AWK
14:56:05 <Zakim> +AWK; got it
14:56:06 <Joshue108> agenda +
14:56:14 <Joshue108> agenda +  Survey: (#3 only) https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/13May2014/results#xautoplay
14:56:25 <Joshue108> agenda+ Survey: May 20 2014 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140520/
14:56:34 <Joshue108> agenda+  Discussion on meeting with EOWG regarding LC-28
14:56:44 <Joshue108> agenda+  Review of open issues: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues/open
14:56:50 <Joshue108> agenda+ Review of accessibility tutorials - call for interest
14:56:59 <Joshue108> Chair: Joshue
14:57:05 <Joshue108> Scribe list: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
14:57:35 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey
14:57:40 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:57:50 <Joshue108> zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
14:57:50 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
14:58:02 <bbailey> zakim, i am bruce_
14:58:02 <Zakim> ok, bbailey, I now associate you with Bruce_Bailey
14:59:36 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
14:59:36 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
15:00:20 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #wai-wcag
15:00:39 <Joshue108> ack me
15:01:06 <Zakim> + +1.703.825.aabb
15:01:08 <Zakim> +Kathy_Wahlbin
15:01:17 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
15:01:49 <David> David has joined #wai-wcag
15:02:22 <Wilco> Wilco has joined #wai-wcag
15:02:55 <AWK> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see AWK, Bruce_Bailey, Joshue, +1.703.825.aabb, Kathy_Wahlbin, David_MacDonald
15:03:06 <Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
15:03:06 <jon_avila> jon_avila has joined #wai-wcag
15:03:11 <AWK> Zakim, aabb is SAilesh
15:03:11 <Zakim> +SAilesh; got it
15:03:22 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
15:03:24 <AWK> Zakim, SAilesh is Sailesh
15:03:25 <Zakim> +Sailesh; got it
15:03:30 <Kathy> scribe: Kathy
15:03:31 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
15:03:39 <Zakim> + +1.703.637.aacc
15:03:45 <jon_avila> zakim, I am aacc
15:03:45 <Zakim> +jon_avila; got it
15:04:00 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #wai-wcag
15:04:19 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aadd
15:04:36 <Zakim> +??P34
15:04:49 <Wilco> zakim, i am +31
15:04:49 <Zakim> +Wilco; got it
15:04:53 <Joshue108> zakim, next item
15:04:53 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Survey: (#3 only) https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/13May2014/results#xautoplay" taken up [from Joshue108]
15:05:04 <Joshue108> Edits to Add 2.4.10 to H69
15:05:40 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:05:45 <Kathy> zakim, mute me
15:05:45 <Zakim> Kathy_Wahlbin should now be muted
15:05:50 <Loretta> zakim, ipcaller is Loretta
15:05:50 <Zakim> +Loretta; got it
15:06:00 <jon_avila> jo: survey, some accepts and some rejects.  Sailesh says H42 is duplicate of H69.
15:06:03 <Joshue108> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-TECHS/H69.html
15:06:14 <Joshue108> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H42
15:06:30 <Kathy> scribe: jon_avila
15:06:46 <jon_avila> sp: SC 2.4.1 could be added to h69.  There isn't anything really new in H69.
15:07:16 <jon_avila> sp: Headings are inserted because there are headings on the page not just because you are creating ways for screen readers to move to regions of a page.  It's a by product.
15:07:44 <jon_avila> jo: AWK says h42 indicates a way to mark a page, while h69 talks about bypass block -- so he says there are some differences.
15:08:43 <jon_avila> awk: what's nice about h42 -- it's a very straight forward technique.  It's a clean procedure.  H69 is focusing on something different.  If the descriptions are combined then it becomes more difficult to understand.  AWK favor keeping them separate.
15:09:07 <jon_avila> awk: recognizes that there are co-mingling of ideas that headings can help address other SC.
15:09:21 <jon_avila> jo: h69 is used to highlight behavior that is already there.
15:09:53 <jon_avila> bb: not thrilled with two techniques that are similar.  Not comfortable with h69 to ignore one of the check steps.
15:10:35 <jon_avila> bb: can we have to sets of procedures, not sure what solution is.  Doesn't like have a check that you ignore.  Doesn't think we have that anywhere else.
15:10:46 <jon_avila> awk: we do have this other places but it is not common.
15:12:05 <jon_avila> jo: thing it fine with me -- but others may have concerns.  Is there anyone who can't live with it?
15:12:46 <AWK> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H69.html
15:13:26 <jon_avila> bb: looking at live h69.   Maybe we could combine results somehow to make them cleaner.
15:13:33 <Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Edits_to_Add_2.4.10_to_H69
15:13:45 <jon_avila> awk: asks to clarify Bruce's recommendation.
15:14:02 <jon_avila> bb: split expected results into two bullets rather than one run-on.
15:14:48 <jon_avila> bb: No expected results in current wiki page at the moment.
15:15:06 <jon_avila> jo: Bruce's suggestion sounds fine to me, anyone who can't live with it?
15:15:35 <jon_avila> awk: what what Joshue's change?
15:16:01 <jon_avila> jo: change to get rid of "to content".  That's all. very minor.
15:16:08 <Joshue108> zakim, queue?
15:16:08 <Zakim> I see Sailesh on the speaker queue
15:16:10 <Joshue108> ack sail
15:17:13 <jon_avila> sp: we do have several techniques that address multiple SC.  When someone reads h42 he says that he can meet two things at once.  Reading the technique that just covers navigation implies that developers may add off-screen headings for screen reader users.
15:17:39 <jon_avila> jo: we don't want to mandate heading where there is no need for them.
15:18:21 <Loretta> q+
15:18:22 <jon_avila> sp: doesn't seem complexity in merging two together.
15:18:53 <jon_avila> awk: h42 says when you have a heading you have to mark it up as heading per SC 1.3.1.
15:19:33 <jon_avila> awk: h69 is basically saying there is utility in having structure -- it's not about marking things up - it's about having those structures in specific places.  In 2.4.1 you have to have them in locations to skip around main content.
15:19:55 <jon_avila> awk: 2.4.10 says you have to have comprehensive set of heading elements to give users outline of the content.  They are related -- but there are more differences.
15:20:12 <Joshue108> ack Lore
15:21:23 <jon_avila> lgr: my worry is that people will think they aren't meeting the basic heading requirement without using heading to be used for structure.
15:22:09 <jon_avila> jo: now we have sophisticated patterns with ARIA and HTML5 for creating document structure.
15:22:28 <jon_avila> jo: recommend that make suggested changes and go back later and address ARIA structure, etc.
15:23:13 <jon_avila> awk: Sailesh has some concerns -- is he satisfied enough, then we see if we can accept as amended?
15:23:31 <jon_avila> sp: record his decent and then go ahead.
15:23:58 <jon_avila> jo: would rather resolve decent.  We could leave open and then try to resolve.  The context historically is that heading were primary mode of navigation for screen reader users back in the day.
15:24:11 <AWK> q+
15:24:27 <Joshue108> ack awk
15:25:02 <jon_avila> awk: public comment suggested that we had 2.4.10 to h69.  Separate issue to say should we get rid of h69.
15:25:47 <jon_avila> awk: create issue for working group to see if we should merge h42 and h69 and indicate Sailesh had comments about that.   Suggest we accept this one as amended and then let it go out as public comment and then work on open issue.
15:26:04 <jon_avila> awk: try to keep two things separate.  If we bundle we will have large ball of tangled yarn.
15:26:49 <Loretta> q+
15:27:02 <jon_avila> sp: is it ok to merge 2.4.10 with H69 because 2.4.10 says add headings -- that is different from h69.  Perhaps add 2.4.10 to h42?
15:27:47 <jon_avila> jo: I like the idea of logging issue for working group.
15:27:52 <Joshue108> ack Lor
15:28:08 <jon_avila> lgr: disagree with Sailesh but postpone until we come back and look at issue.
15:28:17 <AWK> ISSUE: Should H69 be merged into H42?
15:28:18 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-19 - Should h69 be merged into h42?.  Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/issues/19/edit>.
15:29:21 <jon_avila> awk: click on issue link it will take you to the issue page and then navigation will allow you to log issues and see all issues opened and closed.
15:29:37 <Joshue108> zakim, next item
15:29:37 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Survey: May 20 2014 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140520/" taken up [from Joshue108]
15:29:59 <jon_avila> RESOLUTION: accepted as amended
15:30:21 <Joshue108> New Technique: Using aria-describedby for link purpose
15:30:27 <Joshue108> New Technique: Using aria-describedby for link purpose
15:31:33 <jon_avila> jo: we have some comments form LGR about supliment or augment
15:31:49 <jon_avila> lgr: did not suggest alternate language, but appreciate those who did.
15:32:19 <bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20140520/results#xnewregio
15:32:30 <jon_avila> jo: detlev also agreed as did JO on language.  Need some more text with suggestion.
15:32:48 <jon_avila> jo: MC says text should be moved around to help flow of paragraphs.
15:33:04 <Joshue108> ack Sailesh
15:33:48 <jon_avila> sp: comment that says we should add an example to ARIA1 - ARIA1 is for user interface and some said we need to separate item for links.  But this technique talks about other user interface controls.
15:34:04 <jon_avila> sp: We should limit this new technique to link because we already have one on links.
15:34:13 <Joshue108> zakim, queue?
15:34:13 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:34:30 <jon_avila> dm: copying language because it had been approved.  So not taking credit, copied from labelledby.
15:34:46 <AWK> +1 to sailesh's comment on only talking about links
15:34:53 <jon_avila> sp: We should focus this technique on 2.4.4 for links -- not other UI controls -- that is covered under other ARIA techniques.
15:35:06 <AWK> zakim, who is noisy?
15:35:17 <Zakim> AWK, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Joshue (47%), Sailesh (18%), David_MacDonald (46%), Loretta (67%)
15:35:38 <jon_avila> dm: we can remove that additional language.
15:35:57 <Zakim> -Sailesh
15:36:05 <David> zakim, mute loretta
15:36:05 <Zakim> Loretta should now be muted
15:36:22 <Loretta> shall I call in again?
15:36:26 <Zakim> +Sailesh
15:36:41 <Zakim> -Loretta
15:36:56 <jon_avila> jo: taken out reference to form controls.
15:37:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:37:25 <Loretta> zakim, ipcaller is Loretta
15:37:25 <Zakim> +Loretta; got it
15:37:27 <jon_avila> sp: have another comment about example.  Example references heading text, another example might be for paragraph text.
15:38:13 <jon_avila> jo: not sure if we should draw attention to JAWS ability to speaking paragraph.
15:38:17 <jon_avila> dm: will draw up example?
15:38:38 <jon_avila> q+
15:38:56 <jon_avila> dm: people may not read and may look to examples, so an example may be helpful.
15:39:02 <Joshue108> ack jon
15:39:35 <AWK> q+
15:39:49 <Joshue108> JA: I saw some mails saying we were going to remove the header item from the Understanding doc. So if we are saying if this can be used as a tech but headings that can't be used for non AT users, then what are we requiring?
15:39:57 <Joshue108> JA: For non, screen reader users.
15:40:45 <Joshue108> JA: But is there nothing here for Cog A11y
15:41:35 <Joshue108> zakim, queue?
15:41:35 <Zakim> I see AWK on the speaker queue
15:41:38 <Joshue108> ack awk
15:42:02 <jon_avila> awk: didn't actually change the sentence to meet what Sailesh was saying about visible focus element.
15:42:10 <Joshue108> +1 to AWK
15:42:23 <jon_avila> awk: we should simply it to say link.
15:43:03 <jon_avila> dm: putting in second example.
15:43:14 <jon_avila> sp: related techniques should indicate to ARIA1.
15:43:32 <jon_avila> jo: anything else?
15:44:26 <jon_avila> jo: detleve made comment about first sentence under example 1 that extends not replacing text. Doesn't anyone like that?
15:44:42 <jon_avila> dm: should say extend rather than augment.
15:45:19 <jon_avila> jo: doesn't like teaser paragraph text.
15:46:04 <Joshue108> zakim, queue?
15:46:04 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:46:27 <jon_avila> sp: "when applied on links it helps screen readers understand the context" -- this could be moved up.
15:46:54 <jon_avila> dm: to move text around based on comments from MC and SP.
15:47:15 <jon_avila> jo: DM working on example 2 -- text should mirror that in example 1.
15:48:11 <jon_avila> jo: user agent notes should say what versions of AT.
15:48:18 <jon_avila> dm: in IE description is announced twice.
15:48:40 <jon_avila> awk: Used JAWS 15 and IE and it only read once.
15:49:53 <jon_avila> jo: should we link to accDescription or remove it as it is suplimentary information.
15:50:10 <jon_avila> dm: Would like to teach developers relationship of accName and accDescription.
15:50:31 <jon_avila> jo: A little leaner without it so it's not confusing.  Can live with it either way.
15:51:00 <Joshue108> zakim, queue?
15:51:00 <Zakim> I see Sailesh on the speaker queue
15:51:03 <Joshue108> ack sail
15:51:38 <jon_avila> sp: don't need to worry about speaking text twice as it's a bug.  Perhaps we have a note about screen readers like JAWS being able to announce the text, other AT do not.
15:52:19 <jon_avila> sp: A sentence that captures that some AT don't support speaking of paragraph text and thus this is why this technique is proposed.
15:52:28 <AWK> q+
15:54:53 <Joshue108> ack awk
15:55:26 <jon_avila> awk: Sailesh was saying we shouldn't put in JAWS bugs.  AWK disagrees because that is what the section is for and we can update.
15:55:51 <jon_avila> awk: Should not talk about other technique.
15:56:08 <Joshue108> +1 to AWK
15:57:04 <jon_avila> q+
15:57:14 <Loretta> q+
15:57:43 <Joshue108> ack jon
15:57:44 <jon_avila> jo: is there any gain to keep people away from other technique.
15:58:27 <Joshue108> JA: I'm concernred that you can meet this SC using this technique, concerned about cognitive disabilites and low vision users.
15:58:30 <Joshue108> ack lor
15:58:57 <David> q+
15:59:17 <jon_avila> lgr: might want to add something to techniques were accessibility support is weak
15:59:43 <Joshue108> ack dav
15:59:46 <AWK> Q+ to ask if "Check that each ID in the value of the aria-describedby attribute matches an ID of a visible and nearby text element." addresses Jon's concern
16:00:11 <jon_avila> sp: doesn't think we need to mention bug because it does announce.
16:00:24 <jon_avila> dm: could support JA's comment that link text should be close proximity.
16:00:25 <Joshue108> zakim, queue?
16:00:26 <Zakim> I see AWK on the speaker queue
16:00:32 <Joshue108> ack awk
16:00:33 <Zakim> AWK, you wanted to ask if "Check that each ID in the value of the aria-describedby attribute matches an ID of a visible and nearby text element." addresses Jon's concern
16:00:37 <jon_avila> dm: sentence could be used to confirm that text is near by.
16:00:38 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
16:01:25 <AWK> Check that each ID in the value of the aria-describedby attribute matches an ID for a text element which is visible and close to the link text."
16:01:28 <jon_avila> awk: suggesting some text like check that ids match for a text element that is visible and close to the link text.
16:02:07 <jon_avila> jo: how do you define nearby?
16:02:26 <jon_avila> awk: is there a scenario where it doesn't need to be nearby?
16:03:46 <jon_avila> q+
16:03:49 <jon_avila> dm: updated language
16:04:07 <jon_avila> q-
16:04:36 <jon_avila> q+
16:04:41 <Joshue108> ack jon
16:04:55 <Joshue108> JA: I'm in favour of the change but we need to work out the wording.
16:05:00 <Joshue108> JOC: Right
16:05:18 <Joshue108> JA: Does it have to be in the same paragraph or same heading, they are testable things.
16:05:55 <AWK> rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/20-wai-wcag-minutes.html AWK
16:06:32 <jon_avila> q+
16:06:40 <Joshue108> ack jon
16:07:04 <Joshue108> JA: My challenge is that, if we don't think this is relevant to Cog A11y, we can go that route.
16:07:37 <Joshue108> JA: The SC talks of programatically determined, but the support understanding docs talk about these things, as other docs are misleading.
16:09:31 <jon_avila> jo: need to move on
16:09:42 <AWK> I think that we need to leave this one open to address the cognitive/testability issue and/or update understanding text related to the concern Jon had
16:09:51 <jon_avila> dm:  added in a second check.
16:10:08 <jon_avila> jo: have to leave open.
16:10:38 <Joshue108> JA: Thats too specific
16:12:06 <jon_avila> jo: come back to this later, possibly next week.  Will re-arrange agenda to make sure we cover those.
16:12:23 <jon_avila> RESOLUTION: leave open.
16:12:40 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item 3
16:12:40 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Discussion on meeting with EOWG regarding LC-28" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:12:52 <jon_avila> jo: skip past items and bring up #3.
16:12:52 <AWK> regrets+ Kathleen, Katie
16:13:46 <jon_avila> jo: issue with wording between ourselves and EO.  AWK - can you post URI. we'd like to have a delegation to attend an upcoming EO call on Friday 30th at 8:30am EDT.
16:14:01 <AWK> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20140107/2895
16:14:06 <jon_avila> jo: comes down to wording.
16:14:27 <jon_avila> I can't access that URI with my account.
16:14:42 <AWK> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2014/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20140107/complete-diff.html#understanding-techniques
16:14:54 <MichaelC> ack me
16:16:41 <Loretta> Josh, did you mean Friday, May 30 or Monday, June 30?
16:16:55 <jon_avila> jo: yes, 30th of May.
16:17:17 <jon_avila> mc: would like 5 of us including chairs and MC.
16:17:17 <David> +1
16:18:41 <jon_avila> mark: reading through comment to understand what are the differences.  Would like to join as he is on east coast.
16:19:19 <jon_avila> mc: will get call info to people.
16:19:44 <jon_avila> marc: will join.
16:19:46 <Loretta> invite Gregg?
16:20:00 <Kathy> ack me
16:21:24 <jon_avila> lgr: should extract the information out of this page into a wiki page to make it easier?
16:21:53 <bbailey> I do plan to attend.
16:22:02 <jon_avila> jo: can't delay again - we want to discuss, open invitation to everyone.  Thanks to those who promised to attend.
16:22:17 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item 5
16:22:17 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Review of accessibility tutorials - call for interest" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:23:30 <jon_avila> jo: we want to make sure accessibility tutorials don't conflict with WCAG.  So we need another delegation.  Put out a call to member who can help perform a review of this suite of tutorials.
16:23:42 <AWK> "hives review" - not nit-picking, only issues that literally make you swell up and feel like you might explode
16:23:48 <bbailey> I would like to press back on phrasing about “accessible” vs “conforming”.
16:23:56 <jon_avila> jo: when do you think this will happen?
16:23:59 <MichaelC>  - http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/
16:23:59 <MichaelC>  - http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/tables/
16:24:05 <jon_avila> kathy: what are the time requirements?
16:25:08 <jon_avila> mc: Education and Outreach works with Europe for funding to creating these tutorials.  They don't want them to conflict but they may not cover anything.  They want to push them out to the public and they want to publish soon.
16:25:25 <David> table summary has been deprecated in HTML5
16:25:54 <jon_avila> mc: Primarily want a review to make sure they aren't saying something wrong.  Basically is there a big reaction.  a more in-depth review is useful but will take time.  They don't want to delay publication.  They can always update resource.
16:26:39 <jon_avila> mc: suggest that we do this as a sub group of the working group.  Need people who know WCAG enough to detect issue.  Don't throw in all possible comments at this level -- only look for big issues.
16:26:59 <jon_avila> jo: thanks Michael.
16:27:10 <jon_avila> jo: kick off straight away.
16:27:43 <jon_avila> mc: plan to have final approval to publish this Friday.  They may delay reasonable amount of time for us to review.  Just these two so far.
16:28:05 <AWK> I'm in for it
16:28:19 <David> +1
16:28:25 <Kathy> +1
16:28:46 <Joshue108> +1
16:29:24 <jon_avila> mc: Ideal to have present and former chairs plus a contact and a few other members.
16:30:27 <jon_avila> jo: take up new items next week.
16:30:36 <AWK> Zakim, list participants
16:30:36 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.617.766.aaaa, AWK, Bruce_Bailey, Joshue, +1.703.825.aabb, Kathy_Wahlbin, David_MacDonald, Marc_Johlic, Sailesh, +1.703.637.aacc,
16:30:39 <Zakim> ... jon_avila, +31.30.239.aadd, Michael_Cooper, Wilco, Loretta
16:30:42 <jon_avila> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:30:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/20-wai-wcag-minutes.html jon_avila
16:30:58 <Zakim> -Joshue
16:35:14 <Zakim> -Wilco
16:35:17 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
16:35:18 <Zakim> -jon_avila
16:36:32 <Zakim> -AWK
16:36:42 <AWK> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:36:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see Kathy_Wahlbin, David_MacDonald, Marc_Johlic, Michael_Cooper, Sailesh, Loretta
16:37:00 <Zakim> -Kathy_Wahlbin
16:38:18 <David> going to drop... thx..
16:38:25 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
16:38:32 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
16:38:34 <Zakim> -Sailesh
16:38:35 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
16:38:36 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has ended
16:38:36 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.617.766.aaaa, AWK, Bruce_Bailey, Joshue, +1.703.825.aabb, Kathy_Wahlbin, David_MacDonald, Marc_Johlic, Sailesh, +1.703.637.aacc, jon_avila, +31.30.239.aadd,
16:38:36 <Zakim> ... Michael_Cooper, Wilco, Loretta
17:09:13 <Kathy> Kathy has left #wai-wcag