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11:55:44 <fsasaki> meeting: its IG
11:55:46 <fsasaki> chair: felix
11:55:58 <fsasaki> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014May/0003.html
11:56:03 <fsasaki> regrets: christian
11:56:10 <fsasaki> topic: roll call
11:56:16 <fsasaki> checking attendees ...
11:56:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
11:59:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
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12:02:54 <fsasaki> present: yves, dave, renat, felix
12:03:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
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12:03:38 <daveL> present+ DaveLewis
12:03:48 <renatb> present+
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12:04:23 <fsasaki> present+ dF
12:04:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
12:04:42 <fsasaki> present- dave
12:04:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
12:05:24 <fsasaki> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-its-ig/2014May/0003.html
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12:05:36 <fsasaki> topic: namespace bindings and CSS selectors
12:05:41 <fsasaki> skip - jirka not here
12:05:50 <fsasaki> topic: update on XLIFF mapping
12:06:06 <fsasaki> david: volunteered to review
12:06:14 <fsasaki> .. started doing some minor editorial changes today
12:06:19 <fsasaki> .. not done yet
12:06:30 <fsasaki> .. only typos to fix
12:06:55 <fsasaki> .. only review, did not go through "todo" parts of the mapping
12:07:06 <fsasaki> dave: what is the process of the mapping becoming a module in XLIFF 2?
12:07:15 <fsasaki> .. do we need to support that with a test suite?
12:07:19 <fsasaki> .. or s.t. like that?
12:07:32 <fsasaki> david: would be good to have "in" and "out" files
12:07:39 <fsasaki> .. yves has examples
12:07:49 <fsasaki> .. how it looks in native format (usually HTML)
12:07:53 <fsasaki> regrets+ ankit
12:08:02 <fsasaki> david: would be more complex compared to other modules
12:08:12 <fsasaki> .. in other modules you worry just about localisation roundtrip
12:08:24 <fsasaki> .. but not about what the information was before extraction
12:08:43 <fsasaki> .. the XLIFF spec has not a lot of instruction for extraction / merger
12:08:50 <fsasaki> .. they expect that both have the some knowledge
12:08:57 <fsasaki> .. the extraction is not really described
12:09:20 <fsasaki> .. the extraction parts would be non normative
12:09:33 <fsasaki> .. it is a new situation: some W3C work to be submitted to OASIS
12:09:44 <fsasaki> .. a member like LRC submits this to OASIS
12:10:15 <fsasaki> .. no need to have w3c membership, OASIS membership is sufficient
12:10:31 <fsasaki> yves: for tests - would be possible to have input with ITS markers, output in XLIFF
12:11:14 <fsasaki> .. process and have same kind of output like we had with ITS test suite
12:11:21 <fsasaki> felix: makes sense
12:11:36 <fsasaki> yves: so we need a set of rules and spell them out into a rule file
12:11:50 <fsasaki> renat: could we use okapi framework for file conversion purposes?
12:11:52 <fsasaki> yves: sure
12:12:03 <fsasaki> renat: okapi could convert almost any format into XLIFF
12:12:04 <fsasaki> yves: yes
12:12:18 <fsasaki> renat: it could develop or extend existing converters to support ITS
12:12:26 <fsasaki> david: Okapi is a reference implementation
12:12:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
12:12:58 <fsasaki> david: having more than input + output files is probably not realistic
12:14:08 <fsasaki> felix: Okapi provides low level parsing with ITS "events" but not "real" implementations for all data categories
12:14:32 <fsasaki> david: we hope for other low level implementattions that should create the same results
12:14:45 <fsasaki> .. we need a good selection of stakeholders in dublin
12:14:52 <fsasaki> .. to get buy in of the people
12:15:33 <fsasaki> felix: could provide xslt for test suite, but not for real processing
12:15:39 <fsasaki> david: would be good for test suite
12:15:53 <fsasaki> .. bryan should be able to work on something similar
12:16:22 <fsasaki> felix: any requirements in terms of numbers of implementations?
12:16:29 <fsasaki> david: we put test suite in our charter
12:16:38 <fsasaki> .. but it is not even an OASIS requirement
12:16:57 <fsasaki> .. it is a statement of use, it is up to the TC to decide what level of verification is needed
12:17:24 <fsasaki> .. having input + output files is the minimum I think
12:17:58 <fsasaki> felix: what is the timeline for the input + output files and how about the location?
12:18:06 <fsasaki> david: we have SVN repository
12:18:16 <fsasaki> .. oasis admin are OK with links to SVN
12:18:51 <fsasaki> .. next tc call will be next week - we then should talk about new template for XLIFF 2.1
12:19:00 <fsasaki> .. will have a different svn than XLIFF 2.0
12:19:32 <fsasaki> .. about the time frame: this will be another session in feisgiltt
12:19:48 <fsasaki> .. Kevin will propose an early release schedule - to be discussed next month
12:19:53 <fsasaki> present+ phil
12:20:08 <fsasaki> present+ garyLefman
12:20:24 <fsasaki> david: implementations should be ready by November, file in place no later than september
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12:20:56 <philr> present+ philr
12:21:29 <fsasaki> yves: the more comments we get on the mapping the better
12:21:37 <fsasaki> .. the parts that map to modules, e.g. size and constraints
12:22:48 <fsasaki> present- phil
12:22:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
12:23:52 <fsasaki> [discussion about storage size in ITS2 and how it maps to XLIFF2]
12:24:23 <fsasaki> david: yves, any other things you think need input except storage size?
12:24:37 <fsasaki> yves: yes, the standoff things, e.g. provenance
12:24:43 <fsasaki> .. also implementation feedback
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12:26:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki_
12:27:10 <fsasaki_> david: conceptual aspect of "Translate" - what is it for?
12:27:24 <fsasaki_> .. yves has fallback solution: you can extract non translatable text into code
12:27:33 <fsasaki_> .. not sure about this: we are mixing up things
12:27:55 <fsasaki_> .. if s.t. is natural language not translatable for business reasons it should not go into codes
12:28:14 <fsasaki_> .. it should be marked up as translate=no or not go into the extracted content
12:28:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki_
12:28:32 <fsasaki_> dave: the ITS "Translate" does not say anything why we annotate it
12:29:00 <fsasaki_> .. in XLIFF it is complicated since the extraction process says s.t. about this as well
12:29:12 <fsasaki_> david: depends on the semantics of the underlying format
12:29:28 <fsasaki_> .. e.g. in some formats you have assumptions like: markup is not translatable
12:29:38 <fsasaki_> dave: for ITS I think it only applies to the textual content
12:29:51 <fsasaki_> .. would not apply to markup unless it is textual content of attribute
12:30:14 <fsasaki_> .. maybe ok to have code extraction fallback
12:31:01 <fsasaki_> felix: besides okapi who would implement the mapping?
12:31:34 <fsasaki_> yves: leroy I assume
12:31:43 <fsasaki_> david: bryan is esp. interested in the CMS scenario
12:32:06 <fsasaki_> .. he would be interested in that issue, esp. DITA based
12:32:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki_
12:33:18 <fsasaki> dave: we are still using mapping for mapping to RDF
12:34:38 <fsasaki> topic: update on RDF mapping
12:34:55 <fsasaki> http://www.babelfy.org/
12:36:35 <fsasaki> dave: useful for advancing this may be:
12:36:44 <fsasaki> .. for advancing ontology + test suite
12:36:52 <fsasaki> .. we could do that in LIDER
12:37:00 <fsasaki> .. that will help to motivate people
12:37:12 <fsasaki> .. same for qLabel  library
12:37:32 <fsasaki> .. they only highlight 1-2 data categories
12:37:51 <fsasaki> .. but some are good XML>RDF data categories
12:38:21 <fsasaki> felix: no need to publish a note, we can also just point to the ontology and document it
12:38:46 <fsasaki> topic: working with ITS in RDF
12:39:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
12:39:13 <fsasaki> yves: you get a lot of data - how to make use of it is hard
12:39:18 <fsasaki> dave: exactly
12:39:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
12:40:40 <fsasaki> felix: working with various data sets - how is the impact?
12:40:57 <fsasaki> yves: babelnet was mostly useful for the translators it seems
12:41:15 <fsasaki> .. maybe that is the case with other data sets too - they use same linked data?
12:41:31 <fsasaki> dave: there are some data set differences, or different data clean up processes
12:41:46 <fsasaki> .. good to hear from people like yves: what is more useful?
12:41:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
12:42:14 <fsasaki> dave: how to decide which one works well under which circumstances
12:43:24 <fsasaki> dave: we are close to feisgiltt now - for yves a good opportunity to met linked data guys and talk to localisation people too
12:43:43 <fsasaki> .. people don't want to be in too many groups, but if we track a specific issue it'd helped
12:45:11 <fsasaki> topic: event report
12:46:51 <fsasaki> felix reports on ITS metadata in json discussion held at the workshop
12:47:20 <fsasaki> dave: there was a discussion at the end of the workshop - doing e.g. inline markup thing would be a horror in json
12:47:31 <fsasaki> .. json-ld mapping from the ITS ontology could help
12:47:44 <fsasaki> yves: did not try yet to put anything in json
12:47:54 <fsasaki> .. not sure - this is really like a transport format
12:47:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
12:48:09 <fsasaki> david: think it would have traction in industry
12:48:56 <fsasaki> dave: there is two use cases:
12:49:03 <fsasaki> .. one is internationalisation of apps that use json
12:49:22 <fsasaki> .. the other one: use json like you use xliff, but talking to javascript browser cat tool
12:49:47 <fsasaki> .. example: prototype cat tool having xliff+its working in the browser
12:50:05 <fsasaki> .. from a web developers point of view, it would be more natural to have everything in json
12:50:38 <fsasaki> felix: so having ITS > XLIFF mapping and then that represented as json?
12:50:49 <fsasaki> dave: yes - and there is i18n requirements for apps that use json
12:50:58 <fsasaki> david: yes, that is different use cases
12:51:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
12:53:15 <fsasaki> felix: anything else to report about the workshop?
12:53:22 <fsasaki> dave: three interesting groups of people:
12:53:27 <fsasaki> .. the wikipedia translation group
12:53:47 <fsasaki> [see slides now here http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/2014-madrid/slides/sharma.pdf ]
12:54:01 <fsasaki> [and here http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/2014-madrid/slides/giner.pdf ]
12:54:16 <fsasaki> dave: also interesting: publication office discussion
12:54:20 <dF> FEISGILTT links: home http://bit.ly/1c4RC5Y  reg http://bit.ly/1lxmkvr  Speakers: http://bit.ly/QnVdI0  Program: http://bit.ly/1lxn0kr
12:54:32 <fsasaki> .. they will start publishing legal text
12:54:53 <fsasaki> .. they are interesting in understanding good ways to leverage ITS > RDF mapping
12:54:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
12:55:28 <fsasaki> dave: and then discussion how to get access to "deep web" data
12:56:38 <fsasaki> felix: would hope that wikipedia would use ITS (without necessarily showing the markup to the author / editor)
12:56:57 <fsasaki> dave: also libraries like qlabel help to show value of ITS
12:57:34 <fsasaki> topic: AOB
12:57:39 <fsasaki> adjourned
12:57:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/05/14-i18nits-minutes.html fsasaki
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